quote:

Maybe Randy Garrett will start loading 12GaFH "Hammerheads."

Rob... Glad you have the license to sell loaded ammo!

As to your question on price... you have the market cornered right now

I dont know what the costs will be but I think the "Bang for the buck" will be good. If I had an extra 2K lying around I think it would be worth it to be in the 12 bore club.

Starting out with 3" plastic case and 1000gr lead slug start
out with 90 gr of RE-17 and you may get up to 110gr.
For over powder use card wads or plastic over powder wad,and
to fill up the rest of space use fiberwads. they are best
and come in 1/4- 3/8- 1/2 thicknesses. Get a roll crimper
for drill press.Absolutely must have a good crimp.
In 3" I just loaded here(All my plastic testing has been 3.5"
so far with RE-17), to answer your question, it has 1/8"
card over powder. 1/4" fiber wad and then the 1000gr slug and
the slug style here crimps ok.

CAUTION--DON'T LOAD RE-17 REAL LIGHT- Don't go down to 50,60,70,
grains, or you can get delayed ignition.Same for 4227 when guys
went down to 40-50 grains.Ed
It would be easier on load developement if you had chamber
reamed to 3.5". Use more powder and still have little more
wads for cushion to keep pressures at magnum shotshell levels.
With 3.5" plastic you could start out with 100 gr RE-17 and
maybe get up to 125gr. BPI has 3.5 cases for 15 cents, they have
fiber wads and cards, they have roll crimpers.Ed

On the RE-17 just ask a local big dealer to order it in.
That is what I do,I don't pay hazmat fees to get it shipped
to me.

As for setting pressure levels for 12GA FH we do it like the
manuals do for 45-70 in the different stength of guns.
And we have the added dimension of different strength cases,
and in the list "WEAH' means Won't Extract Any Higher.
That is for the avwerage of all cases.

NEF plastic cases 16,000 psi max, WEAH

NEF RMC cases, 23,000 max, WEAH

NEF BMG based 3.85" cases, 27,000 max.WEAH

SAV 210 heavy bbl, RMC cases, 30,000 psi. WEAH

Sav 210 heavy bbl, BMG based 3.85"case, 40,000 psi.

BMG actions, heavy bbl 70,000. Like Robs...Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Well you all have avoided the question admirably. So let me re-ask the question a different way! What would you think would be a price you'd pay? Be Honest! NMT$1000, NMT$1500, $NMT 2000, $NMT2500. Yes we would sell loaded 12GaFH ammo, components etc. Including various bullet designs as well as cases and Rims and reloading tools. Ultimately, 12GaFH double rifles are not out of the question as will be High End single shot complete guns of either the Borchardt or Win High wall design. -Rob

For a 12GFH depending on the donor firearm (like the NEF) I'd pay no more then $1500AU. For something like a 210F Savage, $2500AU. Thats just for the firearm. As to the rest, I'd package it as reloaders kit's from somewhere inbetween $500-$800AU if it included at least 10 preloded rounds (options on projectile) matched for the donor firearm and a reload manual designed for said donor firearm power levels. Basic starters reloading kit (no rounds just dies an what not) $500AU. Options there after upto and including ammo for delux reloaders kit - $800AU.

IF a person was to provide the donor firearm, then pricing would reflect the conversion only, say around $800-$1000AU depending on what required work is selected via options - barrel length, material used (SS/Molly), MB/Magna porting, recoil reducer/weight added, bedding, floating ect ect.

Like all things in life, if you want something done right, do it yourself. So on that note I have ordered the following machines.

Lathe

Mill

Since no ruddy gunsmith wants to even look at doing my 12GFH - I'll bloody well do it myself! FRACKEM!!

Down the track I'll get a CNC kit for the mill form here: CNC
I'll also ask them if they can do a kit for the lathe.

I am a Sheik, but only oil I have is in my truck!

Ed, Definately gonna have it reamed out to probably 3.85 to use full length BMG case. I do think that the fact that you can use the cheap plastic cases and throw them away instead of resizing is a big plus. But definately going to get some BMG brass made up to, just in case I see a stray TREX anytime soon. Thanks for the reloading data.

Rob, glad to hear you have all the licensing crap done already. I'm not sure but I think you should have a package that someone can send you a NEF and have it worked over and come back with a few loaded rounds and cases. Just don't know how much I'd be willing to pay though?? Sorry can't be much help. Are you going to offer loaded ammo by itself too?

Just a stray thought, but has anyone had any ideas on suitable scopes/rings/mounts for the 12GFH. Just curious to see what others would mount on their beasty!

quote:

I'll bloody well do it myself! FRACKEM!!

I like the idea of a chambered heavy barrel integral brake barrel to go on the 210.

Ed, is there any issue single loading the long 12GFH say up to 4.5" OAL in the Savage 210?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I like the idea of a chambered heavy barrel integral brake barrel to go on the 210.

Yeah, it just seamed more logical, given its added strength. Plus it adds weight where it will help with muzzle climb

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:Ed, is there any issue single loading the long 12GFH say up to 4.5" OAL in the Savage 210?

The main limiting factor on the 210F as to how long a casing it can handle, is its bolt length. It must have enough length to extract the spent casing but not interfear with the Trigger sear. The total length that this gives you is around 4.5" with still enough meat left in the rear of the reciver to act as the bolt guides and clear the trigger sear. Given that there is 4.5" of free bolt travel that is usable, just to give a bit of breathing space for a clean ejection of a casing I'd limit total spent case size to 4" Max.
But thats just me. Its funny you should as this as i was just looking at this very issue today!

Good to know...

A heavy barrel with integral brake will be all I would need for shooting this beast.

I hope to see a 12GFH at the Shoot N Hoot.

Yes, my Savage will load cases loaded to
5" plus overall length in case you load
a long bullrt. And with bolt stop redone
like I did it by machining original stop
away and letting back of bolt lug be the stop,
bolt travel is 5.15". My port opening is 4.15"
when back bridge is opened back even with the
the bolt front, when bolt is back.Ed

I should take one of those heavy, long barrels I got from Ed and have it threaded for the Savage 210.
Then backbore the muzzle end to .750" diameter and Swiss cheese it for 4" length.
That will leave 26" of effective barrel,
with 30" 1.4" cylinder barrel allowing plenty of muzzle weight.
Will definitely require a lot of lead to balance,
a "plus-20-pounder."

Or simply screwing the highly effective V-A-I-S Brake onto a 30" barrel might do.

Guess I'll have to get another matching set of 12ga barrels from Pac-Nor
if my 12GaFH double ever comes to pass.

We await Rob's leadership there too,
With 'bated breath,
Hoping not to turn blue
Before the 12GaFH DR debut.

But first, I have to finish up that 9-pounder 1:9" TWIST 500 Mbogo.
A "Super Match" stainless 8-groove 1:9" .510-caliber No.6 sporter
is a standard offering at Pac-Nor,
available with the click of a mouse,
and 8-10 week wait,
$280
so they say.

I still prefer the SAAMI chamber specs for 12ga 3.5" just lengthened to 3.85".

If it ever got to availability of standard Nohbozo chamber reamer (still a secret),
and one-piece Nohbozo brass,
I could put up with that.

Would it be technically feasible
to make drawn brass as thick and heavy as the RMC turned brass?

If so, that would be "12GaFH-Squared" brass.

The proper reamer for it may be ordered from Dave Kiff, already available.

209 primer plus Blue Dot works better than a 50BMG primer.

No question, straight shotgun, only 3.85" instead of 3.5".

Hastings lengthened the 3" 20 Gauge to 3.5" and it is still a shotgun, etc.

I have this nagging worry about needing an ATFE "sporting exception" for Rob's cartridge.
It is a 50BMG necked up to .729" with a shotgun rim screwed onto it, primed with a 50BMG primer, and it does not match shotgun chamber diameter dimensions. Close, but no cigar.

Well, actually the Nohbozo brass does take on a cigarish shape if fired in a SAAMI-diametered 12Ga chamber. Close, but no cigar!

Hmm?

Rob, what did you turn those aluminum slugs from? I have access to lots of 6061 at work and was wondering about trying to turn some to try.

Ed, can you use cement like they do on RMC cases on plastic cases?? Instead of a roll crimper??

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
"WEAH' means Won't Extract Any Higher.
That is for the avwerage of all cases.

NEF plastic cases 16,000 psi max, WEAH

NEF RMC cases, 23,000 max, WEAH

NEF BMG based 3.85" cases, 27,000 max.WEAH

SAV 210 heavy bbl, RMC cases, 30,000 psi. WEAH

Sav 210 heavy bbl, BMG based 3.85"case, 40,000 psi.

BMG actions, heavy bbl 70,000. Like Robs...Ed

Ed,
I would think that an 1812 fps load with 1087-grain Brass Darwin, using 230 grains of H50BMG plus 15 grains Blue dot and CCI-209 in the RMC brass
... would be greater than 23,000 psi in my NEF.
If not, that is some low-pressure wonder load!

You say that the NEF with RMC brass will not extract any higher than 23,000 psi?
The empties pop right out of mine!
My load is 23K psi or less?

Are your pressure guidelines based on real pressure testing, QuickLoad, or the seat of your pants?
I am flying by the seat of my pants. You too?

Your extraction problems with RMC brass might be due to a tighter than proper chamber for the brass?
A Nohbozo chamber is pseudo bottle-necked when an NEF-er is rechambered, big base thin neck.

I can understand a 16K psi load with the thin-metal based plastic hulls being sticky in the NEF,
but not a 23K psi RMC load!

Rob cannot even chamber the 3.5" brass in his Nohbozo chamber without a mallet!
That would have trouble extracting a zero psi (unfired) piece of new brass!

I think the pressure limits on the NEF-er with RMC brass
when properly chambered to match the brass,
are more limited by the pressure ratings of the brass,
whatever that is,
or by the pressure rating of the action if that is lower!

70K psi with the Nohbozo brass in any action would be unwise, eh?
Standard 50BMG MAP is less, at least it is in CIP.
Those necks are stressed and thinned by necking up from .510 to .729.
Even with careful annealing, etc., I doubt a single case would survive one firing at 70K psi.

I gotta get QuickLoad, AccuLoadIII cannot handle cartridges as large as the 12GaFH.

I am being a little conservative on my estimates,
but I stuck a few loads in NEF with RMC cases, starter powder loads,
that wouldn't extract with NEF ejector.I was using
faster powder than HBMG and my formula along with the
MBP chart formula showed 23-25,000 psi.No danger to the
gun, cases just stick.In Savage with a better extractor get to about
30k before the RMCs stick.If NEF could buils a wider non
spring extractor the you couls go up. The ENcore has an
extractor, but it is narrow and when getting hard to extract
RMC cases(I did a couple) it wanted to tear through the rim.

The HBMG w/starter loads I figured with my math were
21,000 psi. But the reason you get the velocity at what seems
low pressure in comparison to shotgun powder loads is this-
Shotgun magnum load peaks at 13-14,000 and has less than 6000 halfway
and less than 2000 at muzzle. Our HBMG load peaks at 21,000,
still 12-14,000 halfway down, and over 5000 at muzzle. Talking a
27 inch barrel. That is why barrel length makes the difference,
as Rob noted in comparing his to yours.Ed


You can't make drawn cases with that heavy
a mouth thickness until you get up to srtillery.

As long as Rob's and my chamber fires a shorter
12ga case, it doesn't fall under the over 50 rule,
it is a shotgun.. Some tactical shotgun chambers are
way oversize the opposite direction and still a 12ga.
Some 12ga ga barrels are choked clear down to 16ga size
and still a 12ga. Some are bored nearly straight of
10ga size backbore and still a 12ga as long as some
12ga case goes in it. Cases can be as long as you want
as long as it is in the straight 12ga configuration.
And it don't matter what you made case out, for when
you took off bmg rim, put on 12ga size rim, straightened
it, there is no more fitting in a bmg. I can make cases
same way putting on rim, by turn off belt using 55 Boyes cases, I
can make cases same way adding a rim. by swaging down a
50cal Russian.We have Magtech cases that are so thin that
you can put a 10ga FED foster slug in them and chamber in standard
12ga chamber and fire them in an 835 backbored.Brett in MN
will test some for me in his 835 air gun as we call.Only do
this in a backbored out to 10ga size Mossy 835, with 10 ga choke.
All still under shotgun exemption.There are a lot of
specs that mfgs do for different shotgun applications and
none are hindered by over 50 rule.Except explosive projectiles.Ed

Then whatever firm can make drawn brass artillery cases could make "12 Gauge From Hell Squared" brass with the proper neck thickness!

And I am thinking RMC 3.85" brass will handle 40K psi ... at least one shot per case!

A drawn case would handle much more than that.As long as you
can extract it. BMG cases will handle much more pressure than
most people think. The 12ga FH will handle more pressure than the
softer rim add on would extract.Like Rob's at 70k may not
extract, but it wouldn't hurt the gun or cases body.
I fired in my 700 test barrel, screw on breech, a 700HE,
made from bmg brass, with tight chamber and proper chamber(not
loose like a MG chamber) a lightened 825 gr, down to 725gr
with 200gr of Blue Dot. Cases come out ok and case had 25 firings
total of all loads. It is one I sectioned and here is pic.
Slight amount of stretching but there would be none if
I didn't do extreeme testing. Regular loads, 700HE and 12GA FH
will do a hundred reloads.Ed

In the "MG" chambers the allowed MAP for the 50 BMG is 53,650 psi.

I see Ed had to hide the case head separation by out-of-focus blurring.

The case head is not the area of concern in the 12GaFH.
It's the neck!

Yes the neck will eventually split on a 12gaFH 3.85 case resulting in a trip to the bandsaw to become a 3.5 or intermediate case. I have some cases still shootable after 50 reloadings.
Some of my .50BMG cases have been reloaded over 75 times. However I anneal the cases every 4 firings.-Rob

That is just a junky camera.
There was no damage or split to the neck.
I haven't had a split on any 12GA FH/700HE,
on any that got expanded split free and a few
12ga FH have fired many times in the SAvage.
The case mouth sides are .018 on my 12GA FH,
which is good thickness. For Savage I annealed about
every dozen times.
The open straight case I think has less strain on
the neck than the original necked dowm bmg
case, where the force of the explosion is pushing
through a restrictiom.Ed

Rob,
Are you keeping a "proprietary secret" of your actual chamber reamer specs?

If I fly out to Vegas with my calipers, could I see the reamer and make some notes on the measurements, if I promise to keep it "top-cosmic-squirrel secret?"

RIP- Your welcome here any time. I'll even let you fondle the sacred reamer! JGS made it and I need to get a print from them as I cant find mine. However its basically a straight taper from .806at the base to .775. -Rob

No secret .Base .806-.807"--mouth .775-.777"--
case 3.85" -chamber 3.90"--room for lengthening.
I put 2.75" plastic loads in ok.If plastic is
run through supersizer they don't have any drag at all
going in. When I chambered savage I used lathe tool
to do the whole length and went until a min size 2.75"
plastic loaded slug went in. And lucked out as the
12GA FH went in perfect, ending up with above specs.
I luck out a few times in this madness.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
JGS made it and I need to get a print from them as I cant find mine. However its basically a straight taper from .806at the base to .775. -Rob

And thanks to Ed for the 3.9000" dimension.
Assume the rim recess is SAAMI 12ga shotgun.
And the throat specs are still secret ...


Alien abduction of the reamer and optical comparator analysis onboard the flying saucer mothership may be necessary to ferret out those dimensions.
I give up.
I'll leave it to the aliens.

Would still like a "date" with Betsey Borchardt next time I am in Las Vegas.

There are two main types of thoats I have.
In the NEF it is the regular shotgun coned
taper throat. I have 3" and 3.5"
regular shotgun reamers, by Manson.
In the Savage going from chamber end
to a short .400" long freebore is a 8-10 degree taper.
Freebore is .732" diameter. Taper from freebore
into the barrel and rifling 2 degrees.
I make that chamber with 10 degree taper with my
lathe tool with 10 deg taper on the tool end.
Then freebore and 2 deg taper with an
adjustable hand reamer with 2 deg taper
ground on front.Ed

Funky throat Ed! Two leades, fore and aft of a parallel-sided freebore segment.

Overall it is about the same length as my straight 3-degree leade, regarding the linear translation of the bullet before fully engaged in rifling: about 3/4".
Of course yours would be a bit tighter, and should have greater accuracy potential.

Overall you can't beat the 3 degee regular lead
as long as it is smoothed up and less
monkeying around to make. Most acurracy
limitations can be fixed by honing the
taper so it is smooth and hard.Ed

You may be able to size down 3.5" RMC brass enough to fit in a "12gaFH No. One" (3.85" Nohbozo chamber),
but you will not be able to use 3.85" RMC brass in that Nohbozo chamber.

The "12gaFH No. Two" (3.85" Bozo chamber), reamer by Dave Kiff of PT&G, will be required
for use of 3.85" 12 Gauge RMC brass.

Anyone know the dimensions for this offering from Hornady.

50 CAL 350 GR FPB

I'm trying to get as many .510 or slightly bigger projy's for testing (just stockpiling for now).

Thx

It will be a .512" diameter if for 5ocal muzzleloaders.

One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened.Ed

Thanks Ed

Hello all, my NEF came in today. I had a couple of questions. How much weight have you guys been putting in the stock of these? I also got the last pound of re 17 they had. Gonna have the chamber lengthened soon to 3.5. Next question is on the aluminum slugs, do they need any lube or anything to shoot them in this? Thanks to all for the info.

Matt

Side note...

The rim of the 20 gauge is .766 so in theory you could slap on a rifled 615 or 620 barrel on the PH action and do a 20 GFH using reduced rim 600 Nitro cases right? the casehead is almost identical but the 600 rim is slightly larger... Nothing a little handywork cant fix.

Since this IS a shotgun albeit a bolt action one I dont think being 5 thou oversize would be an issue but bullets could be sized down to 615.

quote:

Originally posted by msheik:
Hello all, my NEF came in today. I had a couple of questions. How much weight have you guys been putting in the stock of these? I also got the last pound of re 17 they had. Gonna have the chamber lengthened soon to 3.5. Next question is on the aluminum slugs, do they need any lube or anything to shoot them in this? Thanks to all for the info.

Matt

Your NEF-er should have a 20-plus-ounce iron/steel rod in the stock hole as a counter balance to that heavy barrel.

You can also get two mercury recoil reducer into that hole for an ounce or two more, or drill some more holes in the butt and fill with small lead shot and epoxy. But all of that is not necessary.

It works better to screw on a 1-pound muzzlebrake on the end, or 1.5-pound golf-ball-launcher/muzzle weight.

Or do it all.

I have not done it yet with aluminum, but it would surely be good to stand the grooved aluminum slugs in a tin can or pan and pour melted lube around them.

Use a cheap/thin Magtech 12 gauge brass case to cut them out of the lube like a cookie cutter.

I was wondering if there is an easy way to make primer holes in casings bigger, like say a large rifle sized primer hole to a Shotguns sized primer hole or a SG say to a .50Cal size.

Would you use a drill bit ? A lathe possibly or maybe a reamer of some kind, in fact do they even make primer hole reamers besides the deburring type ?

Thanks

I made a rifle primer hole out to shotgun
primer hole, with a drill. If you go much
bigger trying to use a bmg primer you won't
have bottom support for primer and anvil.As for
getting pocket out to bmg size I use a
3 reamers I have here with flat ends that give
sharp corner in the bottom so that primer seats
ok. If I got RMC brass and wanted bmg pocket
I would do pocket myself.Ed

Well slug gun made it but no components to start reloading so I got bored and made an aluminum slug. SWC 367.1 grain and 3 driving bands. Will probably get components this week and be able to play this weekend. Any idea where to start this thing at in a 3" plastic shell? Maybe 100 grains re 17? Need to make some more to play with.

You can make brass slugs also. For starting
make brass slug 750 gr to get the feel
of escalatating the power in steps.

With aluminum slug, being light
you can fill case with RE-17 with card or
plastic overpowder wad in 3" plastic with roll
crimp. With brass of 750 gr start at
100gr in 3".Ed

Ed:
Those 3 reamers you use, did you make those ? Or can they be had from some place ? You pretty much guessed it, I'm thinking of making the RMC primer hole larger.