Gibs- In a 3.85 inch case ,I've gotten 250gr of H50BMG with compression and a 1.37 inch long Darwin loaded about 1.1"deep. In a 3.5 inch case( from a few fireforming failures) I could get 210-220gr H50BMG with compression and same bullet. Rip probably can give you a better answer on the 3.5 cases but I dont think he has gone up that far yet.
Macifej- Think SBR,AOW Streetsweeper from Hell loaded with Quadracones! Yeesh!
There are also the Barret M82A1 conversions that actually would be quite simple. Looked at doing one but at 9K thats too much to lay out right now. Mag fed. -Rob

Rob:
Thanks for that matey, I'm curious to see if Rip or maybe Ed has gotten close to 240gr in the 3.5" RMC case. I'm also wondering how much RE17 Ed could/did get in a 3.5" RMC case and roughly what fps he's getting.

With 3.5" RMC case---

With RE-17 I got 160gr max behind 715gr jkt
bullet, Space taken up by card and wads.
About 2300 fps.


With 1040 gr and RE-17 used 140gr max.
Space taken up by card and wads.
About 1900.

With 15gr Blue dot starting HBMG powder
and 715gr jkt slug used max of
270 gr, with 1/8"card under
slug. About 2200. Ed

Thx Ed.
Hmm I wonder if this can be improved on since its getting close to what I'm after.

With RE-17 I got 160gr max behind 715gr jkt
bullet, Space taken up by card and wads.
About 2300 fps.

Will have to have a play when mines all done.

Hey Ed,

Are you getting good accuracy with those loads that have wads and cards in them?

I was playing with some 20ga felt wads and 80grSR4759 in a .600Overkill (trying to eliminate airspace).

They shot clean and consistent but with no useable accuracy. I think the wads were bumping the bullet at the muzzle and not giving it a clean release.

Gibs-Maybe a little better than that, not great amount,
as I am using a long barrel. But that is
over 8000 ft lbs using a shotgun primered case,
in NEF.....Not weak at all.

PWS-Are the wads tight without leakage around them.
What weight of bullet are you using.What velocity.
You may be going too slow.What twist do you have?
I got some 12ga loads doing 2-3" at 50 yds.
You gotta play with them. A lot of guys want that at
200yds. 3-5" at hundred gets on the bear.Ed

Gibs,
Ed is your man for load data.
I take notes from him and Rob.

All I have done so far is this:

Supersonic:
3.5" RMC brass case with CCI 209 primer plus 15 grains Blue Dot:
1085-grain Nohbozo Brass Darwin
170 grains H50BMG >>> 1377 fps
In 24" no-brake NEF-er

Subsonic:
3.5" Federal plastic hull, new factory primed:
1400-grain 30:1 lead/tin Darwin
65 grains IMR-4227 >>> 1012 fps
In Mossberg 24" ported barrel

I am bassackwards here, using fast powder with 1400-grainers, and slowest of slow powder with a lighter slug,
but hey, I am just taking baby steps here.

I am annealing those RMC 3.5" case mouths and starting over with 170 grains of H50BMG,
now that I have a brake and some more Nohbozo slugs.
Will work up to no more than 240 grains of H50BMG with the 1085-grainers: 1900 fps predicted.
Will use the shattering plastic overshot disks to segregate the Blue Dot starter from the H50BMG.
Ed says that will work.

I seat the Darwins long with the 3.5" brass in the 3.85" chamber, until I get the 3.85" brass from RMC.

H50BMG will be even better, more efficient, when I work up to about 220 grains with the heavier 1382-grain Rippalloy No. 2 Darwins,
hard as Linotype and less brittle. Should be good enough for pass shooting elephant brains.
My velocities are slightly different from Rob and Ed's,
due to different brass and my bigger chamber, and barrel effective length differences, etc.

quote:

65 grains IMR-4227 >>> 1012 fps

Transsonic really ...any vapor trails during high humidity launches ...??

I got a cut-off section of 10 gauge SxS if you want to do some tinkering...

Rich
Buff Killer

Fussy? 40F 300ft elev, 1070 fps is mach 1 in Kentucky.
Use 50 grains of IMR-4227 for a 1400-grainer at 801 fps in yer Mossy.
That is quieter, a car muffler could be modified to silence it, and no vapor trails on humid days.
I gotta go see about 500 Mbogo No. 2 tomorrow.
I was tempted to make it a 500 Jeffery, but I was strong, and laid myself down for a nap and the urge went away.
Should be shootin' some hellish 12ga loads Sunday.

quote:

Should be shootin' some hellish 12ga loads Sunday

The right barrel differences help. The extra
foot of barrel, is good for 150 fps extra on
average.And those ports on the top 1/4 sector
out on the end keep it from recoiling up.
Rip- When you get to doing RE-17 you may like
it best of all for shotgun primered cases.
I really like it so far.Ed

That extrat ft of barrel will really make a difference. The NEF in 12 GaFH is really limited by the amount of powder you can burn.-Rob

Yes, Ed, RL-17 for the lighter slugs, but I think H50BMG is going to be perfect for 1382-grain slugs.

There was no unburnt powder in the barrel and no daylight-visible flame from the muzzle brake, with H50BMG at 230-grain charge with the 1087-grain slugs. Very efficient powder segregation, and reliable ignition, with the plastic disks, thanks for the idea.

I hope to teach you guys how to spell VAIS
with this post. It's V-A-I-S not Vias.
Now can someone teach me how to pronounce it?
Like "Vice" or like "Vace," surely not "vase."
The designer was Greek, Mr. Vais,
and there is a sorrowful tale about his selling the design and trademarked name to Mr. Bartlett, then squabbling over it later.

Anyway, the Vais Brake works great.

Seems to cut recoil in half with 200-ish grain powder charges.

Here is a data point:

RMC brass, 3.5"
1087-grain Nohbozo Brass Darwin cup point forward
COL = 4.185"
CCI-209 primer
15 grains of Blue Dot priming powder
230 grains of H50BMG
MV: 1812 fps

That is all the powder I could get in the case, the way I loaded it,
with a plastic disk between Blue Dot and H50BMG.
At that COL, the slug is pretty snug against the forcing cone of my standard 12ga shotgun 3.85" chamber.

The 3.85" RMC brass will not allow anymore COL, it will just allow more case gripping the slug when seated to that length.

I could discard the plastic disk between the slug and the H50BMG and use a drop tube,
and easily get 240 grains of H50BMG in the case, even the 3.5" one.

However at the 230-grain plus 15-grain plus two plastic disks (8 grains each) plus 1087-grain Darwin at 1812 fps in a 12-pound gun, recoil level...
I think I have found my comfort level.

Recoil (same weight gun without brake-effect) =
269 ft-lbs @ 37.8 fps
Recoil with VAIS BRAKE = pleasantly invigorating

Some pics:

The perfect load for
1087-grainers at 1812 fps in a 24" barrel (27-1/8" with brake), 230-grain H50BMG charge:

KE= 7922 ft-lbs



Test ammo:




The 180 and 190-grain H50BMG charges had a 1/2" fiber wad between the slugs and the powder,
the rest had a plastic disc between slug and powder,
all were tapped tight with a 1-pound rubber mallet before crimping.
COL's:
(first two 3-shot loads with FN forward)
180-grain: 4.060" : 1456 fps
190-grain: 4.125" : 1529 fps
(remaining loads with cup point forward)
200-grain: 3.975" : 1607 fps
210-grain: 4.045" : 1680 fps
220-grain: 4.155" : 1743 fps
230-grain: 4.185" : 1812 fps

About 60 F.
Uniform and flawless ignition.

No pressure signs. All ejected well.
Low pressure loads all, even at my 230-grain max load.

Weather predicted rain coming and I lucked out for lighting between 1 and 2 PM, just shot them all into the berm at 50 yards with chronograph at 25 yards. Drove home in the rain and hail, again!!!
Snow predicted tomorrow, April in Kentucky!!!

I will get accuracy testing of the 230-grain load, later.



The slug gun, weighs 11 pounds and 14 ounces, with brake, slip-on pad, scope and rings, and without the sling.
Add one empty brass hull from RMC in the chamber and it weighs 12# 1-oz.
With a loaded cartridge and the bulky sling shown, it is close to 13 pounds.
An RMC-brassed 12gaFH loaded cartridge is getting close to a half-pound:



With brake, it is no longer than a .375 Ruger Hawkeye African, and only weighs about half again more.



Rob:
With 3.85" Nohbozo Brass, it may be the "12Gauge From Hell,"
but with RMC 3.85", my NEF-er will have to be called the "12 Gauge From Heaven."
Sweet and easy.

quote:

Like "Vice" or like "Vace," surely not "vase."

Like "vye" ...

Whaddaya think it'll take to get over 2000 fps RIP ...??

Macifej,
You speak Greek?
Vais: it's still Greek to me!
Silent "s"?
Is it just a "v" consonant and a long "i"
One syllable?

Vais: "Vye" you say?

As for getting the lighter slugs, such as the 1087-grain Brass Darwin, over 2000 fps, we shall need:

Beer for the horses,
whisky for the women,
and faster powder for men who would be men.

I think there is margin for more pressure.
The NEF-er is a stout little beast.

Your guy might be Greek but "Vais" is a French surname ...Le Vais or Du Vais or just Vais on this side of the pond.

Could be some Greek varient as well - no clue - Greek to me ...

Stouter beer for the horses or just Stout maybe ...!!

Ah ha!
The bloody French influence!

"Vais Brake for animals"
Rhymes with
"I Brake for animals"


"Versailles" may be "Ver-sigh" in France, but in Kentucky it is "Ver-sales,"
and it is a small town just down the road from Lexington,
where U.K. basketball recently died, and a resuscitation attempt is underway
with a $35,000,000 5-year coaching contract for some thug from Memphis ...
even though KY is sure to accept any "stimulus" money from the feds that it can snag.
Does this mean that Obama will be taking over Wildcat basketball coaching soon?
Highest paid college basketball coach ever, in KY? Now?

Of course it could be "Vay" given the Norman/Anglo centrifugation of late (last 1000 years or so) ...

Of course - around here that would be Vare-Syyeez aamigo ...

RIP- Congrats- I did get 240 gr in my cases loaded a little deeper but got just 1750fps. I load mine to the first crimping groove. I thought the 2 extra inches would provide a little more velocity. I think you'll find accuracy to be excellent. Thats .460 Wby territory with a pre expanded bullet! Smackdown! I also think recoil is definately getting there with that load! Excellent work!-Rob

Thanks, Rob.
Those thick-walled RMC cases will have slightly smaller case capacity,
so maybe 230-grain pressures will be similar in the RMC case to 240-grain pressures in Nohbozo cases.

Or, consider my load to be a 245-grain powder charge, 230 grains of H50BMG plus 15 grains of Blue Dot.

2" of effective extra barrel on my NEF-er with the add-on brake, adds some, yep.

Maybe, as Ed suggested, the Blue Dot starter powder speeds up the burn rate of the H50BMG too.

That could explain it, adding it all up.

A 460 Weatherby was my first bolt action big bore training wheels.

The 12GaFH is a bunch more than a 460 Wby, however you slice it.

Heck, this 12GaFH has got the 700 Nitro Express beat!

Claimed 700 Nitro:
.700-cal, 1000-grain, 2000 fps, TKO = 200

Actual 12GaFH starting load (gets better from here, with faster powders):
.729-cal, 1087-grain, 1812 fps, TKO = 205

Only 1424 fps with the 1382-grain Hard Lead Darwin will be required to give TKO of 205.
I think more than that is possible.
And I have not even considered the BS Index yet!

The 700 Nitro will eat the dust of the 12GaFH.

Good luck with your 12GaFH double rifle.

RIP- Yes, I agree with you. The blue dot starter load may in fact be changing the burn characteristics of H50BMG. That and the extra 2 inches of barrel combine to move this into a higher velocity range than I obtained. I thought that would happen! With Rl-25 and that blue dot load you might well get to 1900fps. Recoil will be stout!
These guns really respond to additional barrel length it seems to me.
I forgot to say that it looks like by seating the bullets out as far as you are in the RMC cases, that they will have about the same OAL as in my 3.85 cases with the bullets seated and crimped at the first driving band. Good IDEA!
Your right also that this $500 gun (with all the mods )eclipses the 700NE in power. Thats a tremendous accomplishment considering that even with all the reloading tools the cost is under $1000.
Couple that with the versatility of the 12ga and its a unbeatable combo if I do say so myself! I dont shoot these things off the bench so my accuracy results are relative, but I have no problems with 2" groups at 50 yrds offhand. I'm happy with any big bore if they will do that. You should have no problems getting your Hard Lead darwins to 1424 fps.-Rob

Rob,
Have you and Ed been neglecting the rest of the Hodgdon Extreme line of powders?

H4831SC, H4350, Varget, H4895, etc.: Those are the ones I will use.

Filling a case full of H4831SC or H4350 might give 2000 fps with your Brass or Copper Darwins.

I'll stick with the H50BMG with the Hard Lead Darwins.

Maybe Varget or H4895 or faster for the Aluminum Darwins.

200 grain starting loads for all would be two throws of the powder measure set at 100 grains for each powder, powder matched to bullet weight.

And Gibs will have no trouble getting all those powders, since they come from Oz.

RIP- I modeled all those powders on Quickload and for various reasons didnt go there. Remember, I was looking for low peak pressure curves with certain rise charteristics that also filled the cases. I tried to avoid fillers as much as possible. I do think Rl-25 might be close to optimum with heavy bullets. Nevertheless, barrel length had more of an effect than powder selection. This cartridge rteally needs a 26-32 inch barrel to acheive max velocities.-Rob

Here is a question for the group! I'm pretty close to being able to offer a complete 12GaFH Kit. This kit would include a NEW NEF Ultraslug Rifle chambered in 12GaFH 3.85 cases with muzzel brake, Internal or external, Complete reloading die set, 20 loaded rounds (209 primers, 240gr H50BMG with 1085 gr brass Darwins) and 10 primed cases( 209) or .50BMG. What do you think a reasonble price should be? It would go through a local FFL of course. Not looking to gouge people but it needs to be profitable enough to be viable as its alot of work and hassel.-Rob

Something like this Rob ?



In 3.85" of course or, hmm, I wonder.............if it was a 4" Chamber and a 4" RMC casing with either AR2209 or AR2218 and a 1000gr conical hollow base poly tip projectile .................just plain evil.

As per economics, "Cost-plus pricing". However this isnt always so easy as you say it takes alot of time.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Here is a question for the group! I'm pretty close to being able to offer a complete 12GaFH Kit. This kit would include a NEW NEF Ultraslug Rifle chambered in 12GaFH 3.85 cases with muzzel brake, Internal or external, Complete reloading die set, 20 loaded rounds (209 primers, 240gr H50BMG with 1085 gr brass Darwins) and 10 primed cases( 209) or .50BMG. What do you think a reasonble price should be? It would go through a local FFL of course. Not looking to gouge people but it needs to be profitable enough to be viable as its alot of work and hassel.-Rob

I applaud you in this endeavor
This one stop shop solution is going to make this take off. Did you start the web site yet? Maybe ask for a whole new forum board?
What about selling chambered integral braked profiled/unprofiled barrels? Selling loaded ammo?
Please excuse my unrealistic enthusiasm.... I had coffee AND Copenhagen chew... Thanks my Texas trip I do chew now
The 12 Gauge FH Nitro Express is what the 700 NE should have been.
Macifej... What would your aluminum version of your 1000 grain brass flat nose shark bullets weigh? I think the aluminium solids will make this so that recoil will not be an issue for the mere mortals. Shooting 500 grain aluminium solids would be ideal for most applications IMHO.


You go Rob!

quote:

Macifej... What would your aluminum version of your 1000 grain brass flat nose shark bullets weigh?

About 325 grains or so ...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Macifej... What would your aluminum version of your 1000 grain brass flat nose shark bullets weigh?

About 325 grains or so ...

Mac... what do you think of a 500 grain aluminium solid? Would it be about 2" long? The BC might be good for 200 yard shooting

Ed:
Are these the full bore jacketed projectiles that you refered to before ? If So finaly found them. If not, has anyone tried one of these yet?


Full Bore JHP

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Macifej... What would your aluminum version of your 1000 grain brass flat nose shark bullets weigh?

About 325 grains or so ...

Mac... what do you think of a 500 grain aluminium solid? Would it be about 2" long? The BC might be good for 200 yard shooting

Probably 2" - would have to run it through my diesel abacus to see what it would do. 200 yards would be about max unless you get the velocity waaaay up.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Macifej... What would your aluminum version of your 1000 grain brass flat nose shark bullets weigh?

About 325 grains or so ...

Mac... what do you think of a 500 grain aluminium solid? Would it be about 2" long? The BC might be good for 200 yard shooting

Probably 2" - would have to run it through my diesel abacus to see what it would do. 200 yards would be about max unless you get the velocity waaaay up.

Maybe 500 grains @ 2600 FPS like the 460 WBY

Gibs-- Yes those are RG's jacketed ones and the
lead core ones here are 715 gr, Al core ones are
360 gr. Both work perfect in brass cases. With 3.5"
RMC case in NEf long barrel,715 ge 0ver 2300,
and 360gr 3100, both using RE-17.

Rip- that line of IMR powders with heavy slugs are too fast for max
fill loads like your HBMG loads. Going light or heavy slugs, and using
powders in that speed range, in smaller amounts with wads,
which is ok, in comparing results and ease of loading,
I prefer to use RE-17 if doing it that way, as
no starter is needed.And even if using starter powders I prefer
the RE 15,19,22,25. As they are DB and have better pressure curve
at the lower pressures we are trying to operate with.Ed.

Well you all have avoided the question admirably. So let me re-ask the question a different way! What would you think would be a price you'd pay? Be Honest! NMT$1000, NMT$1500, $NMT 2000, $NMT2500. Yes we would sell loaded 12GaFH ammo, components etc. Including various bullet designs as well as cases and Rims and reloading tools. Ultimately, 12GaFH double rifles are not out of the question as will be High End single shot complete guns of either the Borchardt or Win High wall design. -Rob

Rob, sent you a PM on another topic...

Regards,
Craig Nolan

Hello guys, new to the forum but have been reading thru all 54 pages of this topic. I also have one of the NEF ordered!!!

Rob, concerning cost, well you'll have about 200-225 in the NEF, 300 in the brake, 100 for 6 cases, and then however much for some bullets? But isn't loaded ammo gonna be a pain? Don't you have to have special FFL and insurance to produce ammo?

Ed, I'm gonna start with the rl 17 and shotgun primers, but where do I start with that powder and what kind of over powder wad? I'm planning to start with a 1000 grain bullet.

Thank you both for all your work on this project, I can't wait for mine

Lets be clear that all appropriate licenses are in place including those for loaded ammo, bullets etc. -rob

Looks like the 12GaFH is truly entrenched now, we even have a Sheik interested in it.


Ed,
If I ever see any RL-17 I'll grab it.

Rob,
I have my "package" already.
Mine is SAAMI shotgun spec plus .35".
I'll be interested in talking price when you get around to a Borchardt or High Wall action.
Then maybe a Butch Searcy double.

CIP pressure specs for some "neighbor cartridges":

PTmax (Maximum Average Pressure) aka "MAP":

45/70 Govt: 2200 bar = 31,900 psi
600 Nitro Express: 2450 bar = 35,525 psi
700 H&H Nitro Express 3.5": 2750 bar = 39,675 psi
729 NohBozo Nitro Express 3.85" aka 12GaFH: ???? bar = ????? psi
4 Bore Rifle: 2500 bar = 36,250 psi

I include the 45/70 above, because it occurs to me that the 12GaFH will knock out elephants better than a 700 NE,
and 4 times better than a 45/70 ...

Consider two different "Hard Cast Lead FN" slugs at 1500 fps:

45/70: .458/550-grain TKO = 53.9
12GaFH: .729/1382-grain TKO = 215.9

Maybe Randy Garrett will start loading 12GaFH "Hammerheads."

Both the 45/70 Govt. and the 700 H&H NE alike will eat dust of the 12GaFH.
That is saying a lot!


Well,
Now that the 12GaFH is Thriving Like Hell, I am going to spend some more time in .395 Purgatory and 500 Mbogo Hades ... while I am waiting for a 1382-grain "Hammerhead" sizer.

.700/1000-gr SD = 0.2915
.729/1085-gr SD = 0.2916

Method in Rob's madness?

If the Brass Darwins can be gotten up to 2000 fps, the 12GaFH will be many ways better than the 700 NE:

greater penetration (FN brass solid of same SD beats RN "solid" at same velocity, hands down)
greater mass
greater energy
greater hole
greater TKO
greater BS Index

A driving band refinement of a copper solid will be required when Rob gets the double rifle shooting.

That true drive-banded copper FN could be reduced in weight to 1085 grains (versus the current heavier Copper Darwin).

Rob,
Think North Fork or GSC!
Maybe an even 1100 grains to truly trounce the 700 NE!