I can turn out rims in large quantities very easily as could Macifej. To do the cases you need a mandrel and its a one at a time job. Too complicated to do manually for more than a few cases. I will write a Pgm to do it and make a few hundred cases in the next few months if there is a big enough demand. -Rob

Will somebody please buy Ed Hubel a new digital camera?

Ed, Macifej and everyone. I'm not going to go into detail here, but I'm working on getting the brass hulls used in the EOD 12ga HP rounds. These are the ones Ed posted about some time ago, used in the bomb destruction robots. It's taking some time, but I'll give you more information when I get it.

Rob, Ed, I've loaded 1043 grain slug over 70 grains of IMR 4227 with no high pressure signs. In fact, it extracted easily out of my NEF USH, where as the factory Lightfield 3" Mag 1 3/8oz's got stuck and needed a little persuading. All I used was a Cheditte (spelling) 3" unskived hull with primer, BPI X12X gas seal, 1/4" felt and 1/4" cork, roll crimped. Barely fit though, so the roll crimper left smear marks in the top of the slug. If you used brass hulls you could fit more, possibly a nitro card over the gas seal and under the slug. It appears to me that 1/2" of wad makes for a nice coushin to soften the peak pressure under such a heavy slug. The two different matterials might also have aided by yielding under different compression levels.

As for your aluminum streaks, you knew that was going to happen. Adding Moly lube might all but eliminate it. What I've come to like with all brass or copper bullets is Arizona Ammunition's Acculube 10X. It's Tungsten Disulfide (don't tell 'em I told you) and has 1/7th the coefficent of friction of Teflon; great shit. Read all you want off their website
http://arizonaammunition.net/ACCULUBE%2010X.htm

Robgunbuilder, I'll see if I can post a picture here in a little bit, but I'll PM you some contact info.

Flanked by Belt mountain punch bullets, are two prototypes and the tungsten core before plating.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v682/ExtremistX2/DSCF2905.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v682/ExtremistX2/DSCF2907.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v682/ExtremistX2/DSCF2910.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v682/ExtremistX2/DSCF2906.jpg

Extremist- Hope you have luck on finding the EOD cases.
Great work on the heavy slug in plastic cases, with
4227 powder.Now to work up a little take out cork
wad and add couple grains at a time, The crimper scrubbing
slug is fine as long as the roll holds slug tight.
Wads can be thinned for perfect fit with sharp trim
knife, as you go up in loads.Take out no more than cork.
How thick is that gas seal.Now you know why we like plastic
3.5" cases with 4759,4227, as you can add powder and keep
good wad column for lowering peak pressures, and more
velocity. And even 3.5" brass you still want to use some
wads with 4759, 4227 and VV110. Asked about H110, don't work.
The buckhammers hung a little in my NEF, but I put a shim under
extractor spring and solved that.

Mac- Rob -A few guys who are interested in doing the cases on small
lathes, need rims made. They are on other forums. I will tell them
that you guys might be able help by making rim pieces.
This might get something going. Hope so. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I can turn out rims in large quantities very easily as could Macifej. To do the cases you need a mandrel and its a one at a time job. Too complicated to do manually for more than a few cases. I will write a Pgm to do it and make a few hundred cases in the next few months if there is a big enough demand. -Rob

Rob,
Sign me up for a share of any rims or complete brass, whatever you can do, whenever you can do.

Macifej,
I hope Ed or Rob will get you a print of their work to make some rims too, or we will have to reverse engineer our own! The Japanese and Chinese have done well with that technique.

Extremist458,
Thanks. You need to keep your pitchfork in this thread.
I forgot about the EOD 12 guage brass.
That is a very exciting thought. Who makes it and is it restricted in sales?

Your load data is very helpful.
Did you get a velocity with 1043-grain slug and 70 grains of IMR-4227?

Ed,
I have new, primed Federal 3.5" plastic hulls, .070" nitro card wads, and 1/2" thick fiber wads. Do I need cork too?

I will hollow The Darwin lead slug down to about 1000 grains and work up from there.

Thanks for the help, y'all.

RIP-- Yes you mentioned doing some.You can
make a holder for case, but with smaller lathe
and smaller live centers you can hold case with
center in primer pocket and grab case by mouth with
50cal bullet in it to have a tight grip.That way
the rim end of the case is out away from chuck to
work on easy. Then turn off rim down to stub, and
thread 5/8 x 24, and it is ready for rim piece.
You leave the front slant of the original
extractor groove and rim piece has same slant
built in for fit.Ed

RIP= Fiber wads are best, and if you need to go to
different thicknesses cut the half inchers down
to thickness needed. And cards over powder I like also.
If you can keep hollowbase at 3/8" diameter, as long
has you have rifled barrel. Did you get
chamber lengthened yet..Ed

Ed,
Rusty McGee says he can do it for me ... will drop it off soon. Not sure what he is using for reamer. I figure to just go to 3.5" chamber, for now, as easiest to do ... unless you know of a 3.85" reamer or "boring bar" source???

Dave Kiff at PT&G makes a stock 12 Ga. 3.5" reamer:

www.pacifictoolandguage.com/products/reamers/shotgun.htm

What is the best boring bar to scratch it on out to 12 Gauge From Hell?

In other words, could sumbuddy who know tell me how to go to hell?

quote:

tell me how to go to hell

You're already there RIP!! Trying to carve out a chamber with a boring bar is just gonna prolong your stay...have Mr. Kiff make you a reamer eh?

Macifej,
You know the way to hell!

quote:

Macifej,
You know the way to hell!

OOOOOHH!! YEA I DO!!

Gonna go run a couple miles now in a feeble attempt at delaying my inevitable arrival there...

Back in a while...maybe...

Right now best to go 3.5 for RMC and 3.5"
plastic. Always go longer later. Lengthening
can be done with lathe as well as reamer for a good smith. I cut my 12ga chambers with lathe tool.But reamers are about 150 bucks,
and can be sold to next guy in the process,
and setting up lathe tool to work inside
chamber may be a hundred.Ed

Ed,

I just added a line to my billboard in bold black caps. See below. Thanks for the directions. You been there before me. Thanks for pioneering the road.

FYI- Any yokel with a lathe and 1.2 inch carbide Boring bar and a good ridgid setup can make a pretty decent 12gaFH chamber. No real need for a reamer. I have one though.
My son owes me a summer of working for me in the shop. Seems like a gopod project for him to hand feed the machine. Real tough work. load the case on a mandrel, press cycle start, remove case add new one. Wonder how long a thousand will actually take?-Rob

quote:

load the case on a mandrel

Got some photos of that set-up Rob..?? Sounds....er?...Uh..?? Complicated..!!

Rob are you talking about the boy doing
12GA FH from bmg cases. If so there are many guys wanting cases done, some even have
a supply of new or unfired cases. Ed.

Ah, how nice, Rob and son paving the way.

quote:

My son owes me a summer of working for me in the shop.

I perceive storm clouds approaching...

Getting brass tube blown up to most any size using hydraulic pressure is no big deal.

We could probably save some bucks by making the external mandrel for them. H&H seems to be a biggie in this...

H&H hydroforming

“http://www.h-htube.com/specifications.htmlâ€


“http://www.ultimatehydroforming.com/hydroforming.htmâ€

We might get lucky and find thin-walled brass tube in stock with a diameter slightly larger than we need, but which we could hand-swage down to size.

These guys have an impressive "on hand" inventory list:
Lewis Brass & Copper Company

Can't we turn the primer-end of the cartridge from brass bar-stock and then silver-solder the tube to it?

How’s about somebody offer 100-round kits composed of 100 projectiles, 100 right-diameter-and-wall-thickness cut-to-length tubes, and 100 headers (less primers). Assembly would require a propane torch and some solder. Might have to add a final sizing die to the kit…

I bought MY kit from Acme.

Ed- Yes my son owes me! Been paying through the nose for college and grad school for 6 years now as well as 18 years of martial arts training. He volunteered anyway. Seems like a good project for him and he just might learn something usefull and different.
Macifej your right we probably dont need a mandrel at all, just stick the case in a collet with a stop set at the right depth and start the process. Still reguires case trimming first and manual in and out. Anneal the case necks, load 50 grs of Bulleseye and fireform. Poof a new 12GaFh case after trimming again.
Henry- The idea is not to use drawn brass but to make use of the high pressure capabilities of readily available .50BMG cases. remember, shotgun cases and even brass cases are only rated at 14Kpsi or so. we are talking 3X that pressure level. Frankly, turning them and threading them really isnt that big a deal. Just time consuming. Been down the new case road with the .600Ok and its not easy. The few guys that can really do it want a fair amount of money up front and there is a good reason why.

Henry- You can't make safe cases by soldering on the
bases of cases. And our cases once done are good for
at least a 100 firings.
Rob, that is great news to have the boy do this.
So when your ready I'll get the word out. Maybe
as you prepare, can you figure price with customer supplying brass
and maybe you supplying brass. Ed

Rob, I’m just concerned that your time be spent on your first love of what I call research. Your plate is already full with things that you are breaking, like powder metallurgy. And thank God for Ed, who will ring out the 12GaFH carriers thoroughly.

So, I guess once you do the drudge-work of delivering a few brass cartridges and one longish run of carriers to Ed, you can kick back and get back to your first loves.

We are hovering in that never-never land between general disinterest and sudden extreme interest. Never a comfortable place, at least for me. Like war: three days of pure boredom punctuated by three minutes of pure hell.

ED- If you could get some Idea of how many rims and cases folks would want, I could begin to figure out the costs. I have more than 1000 .50BMG cases as it is right now and can get lots of military stuff real cheap. In thinking of mass production, I may want to blow the cases out first then machine them. It may also be possible to make a hydraulic case expander and dont bother fire forming at all.-Rob

quote:

Getting brass tube blown up to most any size using hydraulic pressure is no big deal.

We could probably save some bucks by making the external mandrel for them. H&H seems to be a biggie in this...

The tooling to hydroform a cartridge type form is WELL into the six figures and it's nothing you can make on your own. The minimum runs are significant and the cost per piece is high. The hydroforming process is not suitable to cartridge making - been there done that (several times).

Attaching “lead†projectile tips to aluminum carriers.

Years ago, a PhD Physicist told me how he regularly used lead/tin resin-core solder to attach copper wires to aluminum parts. He explained that, normally, aluminum instantly combines with oxygen in the air, forming a very thin layer of sapphire over the aluminum. This is a self-limiting surface-conversion process as to the aluminum, and explains the bright, untarnished appearance of front-surface aluminum mirrors.

What he did is to first form a small puddle of molten solder on the aluminum surface. Then, using a diamond-tipped stylus (we all carried them in our shirt pockets) he would reach through the puddle and scratch the aluminum surface. What happens is the diamond breaks up the sapphire over-coating, which de-passivates the aluminum as to taking up the solder.

I also found this today on the WWW:

“You can solder aluminium parts even with ordinary soldering iron and solder
alloy but the soldering must be done in oil (even cooking oil can be used
for ocassional work at home). The soldered part must be immersed in oil, than
cleaned with sharp knife and a solder is applied with a soldering iron. After
some rubbing it should attach to aluminium. Do not take the part from oil
until that moment, The oil is to prevent aluminium with oxidizing.
I used this method to solder aluminium coil shields.â€

I am thinking that we might sensitize our aluminum carriers to really grabbing our lead inserts by doing something like this while the carrier is still on the screw machine. We could maybe “tin†the carriers using dry nitrogen to run a tiny Pashe sandblaster in an inert-gas environment (hood over the CNC). Then apply solder, still under gas, once the screw machine stops rotating.

Rob, Maybe a couple thousand in first few months.
I will ask for a tally from guys aroud the
net to check. RIP wants some. Anyone else here
interested post a number for us.

I thought about fireforming first also as that
gives you the use of original rim. Could use
a inexpensive shellholder action, any cheaper
smooth barrel, locked in a vise, no stock,
and that way the cases held tight by the
rim for headspacing.My shellholder action for
700HE hold case tight. Then any sizing, expanding,
neatening up can be done with original rim in
the press with bmg shellholder.

Rim question, are stainless rims about same as brass,
for cost, as I think you said they were stronger. Maybe
make a better case for resizing process.Ed

The road to hell is paved with good intentions ... and 12 guage hulls.
How much will they cost per piece?
That will determine how many I can afford.
Yes, I want some, please!

If Karl can get import company in Aus set up
to bring some of my 700 cases to him and
friends, the same could get 12GA fH in.
That bunch shooters might add a fair
number to the total.Ed

We could make fireformed and non-fireformed brass available. Once a rim is on, folks could deceide they want to do the fireforming themselves. Its easy and you rarely lose a case even when done directly from a annealed .50BMG case. I can also expand the necks to about .600 with a expander die I made. That reduces case losses when fireforming to about 1%.The idea of selling threaded cases with rims that are not fireformed would cut costs down considerably. I figure most of the guys interested in the 12GaFH are experienced handloaders anyway.
Brass or steel it makes little difference. I still say the screw on .50BMG rim makes reloading a snap and you dont lose the turned rims.
I'm starting the CNC programming of the rims today.
Also, dont forget, I can cut the cases down for folks who want the 3" 12GaFh short brass! That would be even easier. What do you think RIP?-Rob

AS far as rim use goes there are different ways.
I made a good tight fitting 12ga shellholder
that did the job except when resizing was needed
on larger amount of expansion. Like 40-45k psi.
But I have a rod to push them out in those instances. You can get a good tight fitting
12ga holder from Huntington/RCBS.Easier than
making one. But for regular loads no problem.
I' m seding emails and posting over the 50some
forums tonight to find out what demand is.Ed

Rob,
I want it kept as simple as possible: A 12ga rim on any sort of 50BMG case available, and I will do my own fireforming.

Macifej has raised the issue of FFL requirements for commercial ammunition component manufacture.

Maybe Macifej has the license, but I would not wish it on anyone else.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions ... and 12 guage hulls.

I'm looking into getting a class 6 FFL to make bullets as a component, I wonder if that can include cases? I would be happy to add it when I apply, if a seperate licence is needed. I could set up a fire forming station for the final process to qualify for it. Someone once mentioned a corbin swaging press could be set up to hydroform, any idea if this will work? Could the forming be done with successive expander dies? Just trying to keep the cost down.

Extremist458,
That Class 6 FFL is what you need to make cases too. Ain't that right, Macifej?
Since you have already wished it upon yourself, go for it! Both of you!

FFL-06 covers ammunition and it's components for non destructive devices. One application and license for all the parts and bits.

Hydroforming would be real hard as we are
expanding necks and all . Hydroforming works
better in blowing out shoulders where the
neck stays same for a seal. Expander plugs work,
should be done with original bmg rim as the extreme pull off of the plug will bend the
add on brass rims. That is why I fireform,
and use one expander to smooth and make it
pretty if needed.Ed