Looks like I have ran into a snag. The way I am understanding (if i'm wrong I apologize) JES the reamer that he has has a standard .30-06 shoulder of .441". In my search I haven't been able to find a reamer of any sort that I could purchase with the correct dimensions. Can anyone point me in the right direction for rental or purchase of the proper Reamer? I would greatly appreciate it.

Previously sleuthed on this thread:

1923 original cartridge:



A brass cartridge shoulder diameter of .455" corresponds nicely to a chamber reamer minimum shoulder diameter of .458".

The original 400 Whelen of 1923 used a .409-caliber barrel and was quite different, except for that critical shoulder diameter,
from what Griffin&Howe eventually construed last century, and which Michael Petrov revived early in this century.

1956 G&H version of reamer got the wrong dimension on the reamer shoulder diameter minimum spec, on this drawing anyway:



I call the original version the "400 Whelen Townsend of 1923" and the G&H/Petrov version is called the "400 Whelen Petrov of 2003" for clarity.

The Dave Kiff, PT&G reamer done for Michael Petrov about 2003 is proper, made from a chamber cast of Michael Petrov's G&H rifle:



The JGS reamer identified as "400 Whelen/G&H" is identical:



RCBS "400 Whelen G&H" dies match these reamers.
So do the CH4D dies which were called either "400 Whelen JGS" or "400 Whelen G&H."


Lord knows there are lots of others too, 400 Brown-Whelen, .411 Hawk, etc., etc.

My version is the "400 Whelen Berry of 2013" (400W-Berry) which is the same as the "400 Whelen Petrov of 2003" (400W-Petrov) except for three small changes:
.003" less neck taper: same neck-2, smaller neck-1, for slightly better shoulder step
.008" longer chamber length, so brass trim-to length of 2.500" is no worry
.122" longer parallel-sided free-bore, for a total of 0.300" P-S free-bore length with same .412" diameter



Dave Manson makes the 400W-Berry reamer, and rifles so chambered work perfectly with the same dies as for the 400W-Petrov.
It was planned that way, I have one of each chambering:




Rusty McGee, Gunsmith/Proprietor of Hilltop Gun Shop has my reamers for his use.
I tried loaning reamers out before and it took years to get them back.
Any reamers that I have purchased stay here:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
400 Whelen-B outing yesterday:
....
But wait, I have enough throat to load out to 3.550" C.O.L. ...



Now to see if Rusty can remove the spacer from the rear of the M70 box and open the action up to 3.6" length, maybe use the Duane Wiebe trapezoidal XRM box for an extra cartridge down in the box ...

So... just how far can you take your 0.300" PSFB? 3.700"?? 3.800"???

Gentlemen,
I've just managed to buy a new Ruger Hawkeye over here in 35 Whelen to rebarrel to 400 Whelen.
I have the PTG reamer ordered and dies from CH4D, the G&H die set, so it would appear I've got that about right!

I'm having trouble getting the Qual Cart cases though, they won't sell direct, and Huntington's and Graf's want a fortune for them and export permits etc, etc.

Would anyone here be willing to help out a fellow 400 Whelen devotee to try and organise some Qual Cart cases for me?
Obviously, and above all, I don't want anyone to put themselves at any risk in shipping them out of the USA.
I have no issue getting the B709A form over here to allow them to be imported into Australia.

I can get hold of 35 Whelen cases here to neck up if all else fails.

I'm hoping a 400 Whelen should go well with my 6.5-06, 338-06, 35 Whelen and 375-06 AI!! (I like '06 based cases)

Regards,
David
www.castbulletengineering.com.au

H&H Mad,

When you ordered your reamer was it a special order item and you had to provide the specs or did they have them already?

quote:

Originally posted by Palladin8:
H&H Mad,

When you ordered your reamer was it a special order item and you had to provide the specs or did they have them already?

I asked for a reamer print first, and they sent the one that has been shown above, with the .458" shoulder. After speaking to Dave at CH4D and confirming on dies, I ordered the reamer, they mentioned it would be about 4-6 weeks, I don't think it was anything special?
I find dealing with PTG always easy and good.

Regards,
David.

Thank you sir for you speedy reply. I will see about ordering one tomorrow.

quote:

I'm having trouble getting the Qual Cart cases though, they won't sell direct, and Huntington's and Graf's want a fortune for them and export permits etc, etc.

You might check with Bertram to determine if he'd sell you some 270 Winchester basic brass. Perhaps a partial run without headstamp or final shape forming (cylinder only) but with the correct final brass draw to hold the 270 Winchester's SAAMI Pmap pressure...

Just an idea...

Palladin8,

Yes, standard reamer by Dave Kiff/PT&G as shown.

Rusty McGee and I split the cost of the Dave Kiff/PT&G reamer. It was available off the shelf, last one in stock, when Rusty called, delivered in a few days.
Rusty instigated the local madness.

H&H_Mad,

Going Whelen_Mad too, eh?

Midway USA has the Quality Cartridge brass in stock for $39.99 per box of 20.
I do not know if they ship to Oz.

http://ads.midwayusa.com/produ...cm_vc=ProductFinding

Quality Cartridge Reloading Brass 400 Whelen Basic Box of 20

$39.99
Status: Available
Ready to ship



It was indeed a long ordeal getting it direct from Peter Cardona proprietor of Quality Cartridge,
but Rusty McGee took care of that too, Rusty has the FFL, if that made any difference, I do not know.
But, Pete made my .395 Tatanka and 500 Mbogo brass, custom runs of only 300 pieces each, dealt direct with me, no FFL,
back in 2007-2010.
So I am surprised if he has stopped that altogether,
though Midway USA has since started carrying all his stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
So... just how far can you take your 0.300" PSFB? 3.700"?? 3.800"???

Jim,
The 3.550" COL is about all I can get and still have two full bearing bands and a boat tail in the neck with the ideal GSC HV custom .411/317-grainer.

There is not much throat left after that anyway.
The 400 Whelen-B has only a 0.130" advantage in C.O.L. over the 400 Whelen-Petrov/G&H,
purely based on a 0.122" longer free-bore, and a 0.008" longer chamber.

Thus, by increasing C.O.L. by 0.180" (3.550" -3.370"),
the 3.550" C.O.L. in the 400 Whelen-B does get the bullet exactly 0.050" closer to the lands
than a 3.370" C.O.L. in a 400 Whelen-Petrov,
with this custom bullet:
0.180" - O.130" = 0.050"

Definitely no longer than 3.600" box is needed,
though the Wiebe XRM box is 3.655" inside length.
Front of that box could be reinforced inside and out,
and yes I do have the follower from Duane Wiebe that goes with that box, and a flat spring.
That would make for a 3.6" six-shooter 400 Whelen-B.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
H&H_Mad,

Going Whelen_Mad too, eh?

Midway USA has the Quality Cartridge brass in stock for $39.99 per box of 20.
I do not know if they ship to Oz.

http://ads.midwayusa.com/produ...cm_vc=ProductFinding

Quality Cartridge Reloading Brass 400 Whelen Basic Box of 20

$39.99
Status: Available
Ready to ship



It was indeed a long ordeal getting it direct from Peter Cardona proprietor of Quality Cartridge,
but Rusty McGee took care of that too, Rusty has the FFL, if that made any difference, I do not know.
But, Pete made my .395 Tatanka and 500 Mbogo brass, custom runs of only 300 pieces each, dealt direct with me, no FFL,
back in 2007-2010.
So I am surprised if he has stopped that altogether,
though Midway USA has since started carrying all his stuff.

RIP,
Unfortunately, Midway won't ship to Australia either.

Regards,
David

H&H_Mad,

That is maddening for sure!

Jim,

Pick your bullet and tell me how long you can load it in the 400 Whelen-B:



I didn't get the case mouth chamfer angle in there, but I know you know it is 45 degrees.

Ron I was just wondering what you might have up your sleeve.

Staying within a 3.6" COAL is much easier to fit for magazine length. Plus it doesn't require a special run of long bore riding CEB MTH Mini-Banded or GSC HV bullets.

Nevermind the 3.6" box.
QuickLOAd predicts only about a 40 fps gain by loading out to 3.550" instead of 3.370".
No worthy change there!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Nevermind the 3.6" box.
QuickLOAd predicts only about a 40 fps gain by loading out to 3.550" instead of 3.370".
No worthy change there!

Agree... Unless someone needs the longer COAL for a specific bullet(s).

Re-thought:

At 3.370" C.O.L. QuickLOAD over-predicted MV for 60.0 grains of H322 by about 90 fps, with the GSC HV 317-grainer.
That was supposed to be a 109% fill, compressed, per QL, but did not seem that bad regarding compression in reality.
Maybe the HV is just so slick it needs a faster powder to get pressures up enough for desired velocity,
impossible with compressed H322,
considering length of the long and pointy, boat-tailed HV.

Considering that QuickLOAD under-predicted MV by about 40-50 fps for H4198 with other loads,
I need to try H4198 with the HV.

By loading out to 3.550" C.O.L. (+40 to 50 fps gained by adding effective case capacity)
and using H4198 to max load (maybe another 40 to 50 fps gained by using faster powder with no or minimal compression),
I might well get the 317-grain GSC HV over 2500 fps.
QL shows 100% powder burn and Ballistic Efficiency of 40.5% at 98% fill with H4198 57.2 grains and 3.550" C.O.L.,
with 317-grain HV.
The short Hornady 300-grainer did 2553 fps with 66 grains of H322.

That could be worthy, exceeding .375 H&H foot-pounds with classic 300-grain load.
And the GSC 317-grain/.411 HV with BC of about .445 carries those foot-pounds well to distance.

Also ...

3.550" C.O.L. with 400-grainer (new cannelure on a Woodleigh or
Barnes TSX seated long, .416 bullet sized down to .411, no problemo),
using RL-17 in QuickLOAD: Possible 2390 fps, surely over 2300 fps at about 63Kpsi,
which rivals .416 Rigby classic ballistics,
from a .30-06 case, at H&H length C.O.L.
That could be worthy too.

The die is cast.
The box is extended to +3.6".

Now just need to get the bolt stop and ejector shortened, I think the receiver bridge and ejection port will work fine as is,
with the 2.5" case length and 3.550" C.O.L.
Will see soon ...

The spacer has already been popped out of the original 270 Winchester box on the 400 Whelen-B M70 Winchester Classic.

It holds 5-down of the 400 Whelen-B at 3.550" C.O.L., retains 5 but closing the bolt loads the top cartridge
(from the right side of the magazine) into the chamber: 4 + 1 (five-shooter).

Experimentation with the 5+1 XRM box (six-shooter) will await getting the bolt stop and ejector shortened:
It cannot load from the left side of the magazine because the exposed long ejector keeps the left-side cartridge pressed down.
Bolt stop and ejector projection need to be about 0.125" rearward of where they are now,
then it will be a slick 5-shooter,
and a featherweight at that,
with .375 H&H and .416 Rigby classic ballistics from a magic wand.



Hey, I still have a Ruger Hawkeye 400 Whelen-Petrov of 2003 in case I totally screw up the 400 Whelen-B.

It is done.
Rusty popped the spacer out of the back of the magazine Saturday,
then Sunday I cut back the bolt stop by about .200" and cut the ejector back about .150",
by myself with punches, caliper, files, and a bench grinder.
It was a two step, cut and try, cut and try.
Perfect functioning now, with 3.550" C.O.L. through the box.
There is even enough room for loaded cartridges to eject briskly at 3.550 C.O.L.
No cutting required on ejection port, receiver or bridge.
Don't I feel special now? Sort of like a gunsmith.
I am also feeling special because I own a Winchester M70 Classic with 270 Win action and a .375 H&H length box, and a .411-caliber barrel.
Chambered in 400 Whelen-B it is like a magic wand.

I am thinking H4198 and RL-17 may be the proper fairy dust for loading light and heavy bullets respectively.

"Unfortunately, Michael Chris Petrov died February 17, 2014 of complications due to cancer... we are pleased to present these pages in Michael’s honor."

http://finegunmaking.com/page33/page25/page25.html

So sorry to belatedly hear about Michael Petrov's passing.
Hope to meet him in the Happy Hunting Ground.
R.I.P. Michael Chris Petrov.
http://www.legacy.com/obituari...y.aspx?pid=169905922



Michael Petrov
(Note: A. Michael is 5’ 16 1/2” tall, B. there are two levels of gun racks, C. He is most often smiling in my experience. sdh)
(from Petrov's pages)

Ron,

Good to hear about the rifle update.

And thanks for posting the information about Michael. Truly a great gentleman.

All 400 Whelen shooters wanting some bullet variety in their diets:

Recipe:
CH4D bullet sizers (.412" and .409") for about $70 each size.
STP Oil Treatment as lube.
"One-Ton" arbor press from Harbor Freight tool store for about $100.
2-foot "cheater" pipe of any sort to slip over tiny arbor press handle to make sizing easy.
Two step sizing:
.416"-diameter jacketed and monometal copper bullets pushed through the .412 sizer spring back to about .4135".
Push that through the .409" sizer and they spring back to a perfect .411"-diameter,
on all I have tried so far.
I have a .410" CH4D sizer also, but bullets spring back to .412" after sizing with that,
so I just eliminated that step as just bothersome.

Example:



I have loaded some dummies to try in the 400 Whelen Berry chamber.
These C.O.L.s work, and are determined by a combination of factors which include:
1. Might be 50 thou off the lands, or at least the bolt closes easily on a chambered round,
2. enough bullet in neck for adequate tension and alignment,
3. at a convenient location to crimp,
4. fit in the 3.6" box, and
5. feed and eject well from my rifle
(made from a 270 WCF M70 Winchester Classic rebarrel,
merely by removing the spacer from rear of box,
and shortening the bolt stop and ejector blades).
Amazingly the 3.500" C.O.L. seems to work for all 350-400-grain bullets tried.
The CH4D canneluring tool can be used to place a cannelure where needed
on the Speer 350-grain MagTip and the 400-grain Hornady RNSN:



The GSC .411/317-grain HV and the Barnes .411/300-grain TSX do not require resizing before loading.

Sad to hear about Michael but those who leave a legacy of inspiration never die.
RIP, time to put some 9,3x74R brass on the large and make a long neck Whelen to go with your new OAL

Looking good Ron!

Jim,
I can now recycle all those old .416 bullets lying around gathering dust.
Lots of loading and shooting to do.

I bought 10 boxes of those Speer 350-grain MagTips years ago on a close-out at the local emporium.
Rusty has already done good work with re-sizing, loading and shooting those accurately,
in the 400 Whelen-Petrov.
From him I learned the trick.

From the Custom Rifle forum thread on Michael Petrov's books, his legacy speaks, "Riflecrank Emeritus":

quote:

Originally posted by RogerR:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom...&hash=item3a8fe1353c

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom...&hash=item3a8f6ba1bc


The description indicates an individual is helping to dispose of Mr Petrov's estate.

Roger

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1019521/m/5141091002

Yes, resizing .416s opens a whole treasure trove of bullets otherwise unavailable.

Thanks for posting Michael's books. I've added them to my 'pick up' list.

Don't forget that the 400 Whelen can be loaded down to duplicate the ballistics of the "414 Super Mag Whisper"
which uses Hornady .410-caliber bullets, and others:



"Here they are; the 41 caliber bad boy brothers. A 400 grain soft point lays on the bolt while a 300 grain round awaits its turn.

"While SSK does many caliber conversion of lever guns any Marlin 336 in good condition can be converted to the 414 Super Mag Whisper. 41 Magnum reloading dies are used. The normal 210 grain 41 bullet will do around 2200 FPS from this 16.5” barrel. The gun really comes to life with a 300 grain Hornady at 1040 FPS and a 400 grain bullet at the same velocity when deep penetration is needed."



Notice that eye relief of scope is never an issue on the "414 Super Mag Whisper."
I may have to try loading some Barnes Original 400-grainers with 0.049" jacket down to 1040 fps for deep penetration.
That is going to take some filler in the 400 Whelen.
Yes I re-sized my last box of those old Barnes Original .416-bullets too, all are .411" diameter now.

Rusty tells me that he uses the water soluble "RCBS Case Lube-2 Case Resizing Lubricant" for bullet resizing.
He has a Stafford brand ink stamp pad that he soaks the lube into and then lightly rolls the bullet on the pad before sizing.
This is a high quality ink pad of cloth covered felt, IIRC.
Much better than the RCBS lube pad. I never did like that thing.

Anywho, with Rusty's technique, only 0.001" spring-back is what he is getting.
His .410" CH4D sizer produces .411" bullets, with the 350-grain MagTip Speer bullet.

I will give that a try.
Sure will be nice to just have to rinse the small amount of lube off with water.

The STP is a horrible mess. I had to spray the bullets with "Tetra Gun Action Blaster" degreaser, swirl them around in a tin can,
then spray them again with "Purple Power Industrial strength Cleaner/Degreaser,"
swirl them around in the tin can again,
and finally washed them with Blue Dawn dish detergent and water!
Then blew the hollow points dry with compressed air.

RCBS water soluble lube and a .410" final step sizer trial next time.
Stranger things have happened.

quote:

Rusty tells me that he uses the water soluble "RCBS Case Lube-2 Case Resizing Lubricant" for bullet resizing.He has a Stafford brand ink stamp pad that he soaks the lube into and then lightly rolls the bullet on the pad before sizing.This is a high quality ink pad of cloth covered felt, IIRC.Much better than the RCBS lube pad. I never did like that thing.

Sounds like an interesting solution.
And thanks for the reminder on the high quality ink pads; I have developed a dislike for the cheap RCBS lube pad

Rusty's method was a snap.
No more STP for me.

I cannot explain the physics of it, but the RCBS Case Lube-2 causes only a .001" spring-back.
Yes, .416 jacketed and monometal copper bullets pushed through a .412" CH4D sizer come out as .413".
.410 sizer >>> .411-caliber bullet for 400 Whelen.
.409 sizer >>> .410-caliber bullet for 450/400 NE 3".
.407 sizer >>> .408-caliber bullet for .408 Chey-Tac.

Two steps for 400 Whelen: .412 and .410
Two steps for 450/400 NE 3": .412 and .409
Three steps for .408 Chey-Tac: .412, .409, and .407

This is a great way to provide the less available heavy bullets for the 400 Whelen (350-400 grains),
and light bullets for the .408 Chey-Tac or 450/400 NE 3" (300-350 grains).
Or vice versa of course.

.416-caliber 350-grain TSX, 350-grain TTSX, and even 400-grain TSX bullets sized down to .408 will make a short enough nose
to magazine load in a CZ 550 Magnum chambered for .408 Chey-Tac, standard box ... oops, this needs to be continued on another thread.

Next outing with the 400 Whelen will be to see how fast the .411/317-grain GSC HV goes when loaded out to 3.555" with H4198,
magazine-loadable in the 400 Whelen-B.

I’m sure STP will ultimately be upset with the reduced use of their product. But, Rusty’s method will certainly be a cleaner process for reloaders to use. Why to go Rusty!!!

Rusty is now known as "Slick" around these parts.
He is a mechanical engineer turned gunsmith, afterall.

There's many a slip
Twixt cup and RIP

(yeah, it took a while)

quote:

Originally posted by roughone:
There's many a slip
Twixt cup and RIP

(yeah, it took a while)

That is what my drool bucket is for!

Eventually I get it right.
I learned the STP and Lee sizer dies trick here at ar.com.
"Nevermore, quothe the raven, nevermore."
Old dogs do learn new tricks sometimes.

Now it is RCBS Case Lube-2 and CH4D sizer dies, as per roughone's teaching.

The physics of it all may be chemistry instead:
Maybe the .001" of extra springback with STP is not that at all.
Maybe it is just a hardened residue of STP, impossible to remove?
Bullets are warmed slightly to touch, emerging from the dies, with either lube.
Maybe cooked on/chemically bonded residue of STP? PTFE resin plating?
Thin Teflon coating?

To STP Oil Treatment used as a bullet sizing lubricant:

The latest iteration of the 400 Whelen was for 3.6" box use arriving in mid 2014,
after Michael Chris Petrov passed away in February of 2014.
My next 400 Whelen will have only a new C.O.L, and new brass maximum spec.

It will be called the "400 Whelen Petrov Berry of 2014" or "400 WPB."

I'll get it up at ammoguide.com after I shoot those new loads in it, and see if they will accept a third "400 Whelen" there.
It will be the second one to credit Michael Petrov for inspiration, based on his, with minor changes.

My problem with new specs is solved.
Rusty McGee is the keeper of the reamer.


20-bore DR, 50-70 Govt. BPCR, .408 Chey-Tac Sporter, and 400 Bateleur are in the back seat, 400 WPB is riding shotgun for now.

quote:

Originally posted by H&H_Mad:
I'm having trouble getting the Qual Cart cases though, they won't sell direct, and Huntington's and Graf's want a fortune for them and export permits etc, etc.

Would anyone here be willing to help out a fellow 400 Whelen devotee to try and organise some Qual Cart cases for me?
Obviously, and above all, I don't want anyone to put themselves at any risk in shipping them out of the USA.
I have no issue getting the B709A form over here to allow them to be imported into Australia.

If shooters.com.au can't or won't get them through Midway, you may be better off buying from outside the US. That would avoid the extra cost and delays imposed by the US export license requirement. Edit: Looks like Midway are discontinuing the brass, and are down to their last packet. Scotches that option...

Qual-Cart lists a couple of agents in Canada that would be worth a try; Ellwood Epps and Corlane. http://www.qual-cart.com/export.htm

The Quality Cartridge brass may be put to good use, plenty long enough for whatever wildcat fever ails you.

I have loaded some again, just haven't had opportunity to shoot it.

Here is the .411/300-grain TSX, ready-made by Barnes, no re-sizing required,
seated in the QC brass:



That C.O.L. is just a bit too long to fit into the throat of my Ruger Hawkeye 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003,
but it works in a .112" longer throat + .008" longer chamber, with room to spare.

I am now pushing the envelope, by loading this bullet to 0.090" longer C.O.L. of 3.445" in the 400 WPB,
works great in a 3.6" magazine box:



This is as far as I can go and still close the bolt without resistance, or barely perceptible contact of the ogive in the leade.
This means it is head-spacing on the bullet, like some fire-forming loads do.
This is a 4th, simultaneous head-spacing method for the 400 WPB:

1. Shoulder
2. Winchester M70 Claw Extractor
3. Case Mouth
4. Bullet

Nothing wrong with the 400 Whelen done right.

Just have to remember, head-spacing off the 'case mouth' becomes iffy when it's crimped.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Just have to remember, head-spacing off the 'case mouth' becomes iffy when it's crimped.

Yea, verily, if you really want to headspace on the case mouth, then don't crimp, use maximum "spec" for brass length,
which better not be much less than chamber minimum ... is .006" OK?
At least that has been proven safe and with no surprises in the 400 Whelen Petrov shooting 2.495"-long cases in a 2.501" chamber ... so I hang my hat there ...

... And I still wonder about the "top secret" proprietary specs on the 50 B&M and 500 MDM with no shoulder or smaller shoulder than the 400 Whelen? Headspacing on case mouth or extractor?

Yea, verily, also do not chamfer outside of case mouth, deburr only, and go easy on the inside of case mouth too if headspacing on case mouth.

Headspacing on the bullet with maximum pressure loads ... now that could be dangerous ... skating on the ragged edge ...
but it sure worked well with fire-forming guestimated 50,000 psi loads ...

Once the 400 Whelen shoulder is fully fire-formed, if care is taken not to set it back in re-sizing,
all the rest is superfluous.

As they say, one bite at a time. So...

quote:

... And I still wonder about the "top secret" proprietary specs on the 50 B&M and 500 MDM with no shoulder or smaller shoulder than the 400 Whelen? Headspacing on case mouth or extractor?

Memory is a bit muddled at the moment, but if I recollect correctly...
Michael mentioned in one post that his original specification for the 50 B&M was a 2.25" case length but he had to trim back to 2.24". What I don't recollect is if the trim-back was caused by "to tight a fit" or "wouldn't fit"...

quote:

Yea, verily, if you really want to headspace on the case mouth, then don't crimp, use maximum "spec" for brass length,which better not be much less than chamber minimum ... is .006" OK? At least that has been proven safe and with no surprises in the 400 Whelen Petrov shooting 2.495"-long cases in a 2.501" chamber ... so I hang my hat there ...

Ok... How 'bout we check a cartridge allegedly head-spacing off the case mouth.
The 30 Carbine has the following Min/Max specs:
Chamber: 1.2902" Minimum / Cartridge: 1.2902" Maximum
Which is 0.0000" difference.

I'd say you'd need to use a similar 0.0000" difference for head-spacing off the case mouth with the 400 WP...