I was reading Michael Petrov's wonderful articles on the original .400 Whelen and its total lack of headspace issues, and did a search in this forum. Lots of hits, but going back many pages (and a mysterious jumble of posting chronology) I did not see anything fresh on this chambering.
So I was wondering if anyone is currently building, loading, shooting or hunting with a properly chambered .400 Whelen. Having fun? Getting good performance?

quote:

So I was wondering if anyone is currently building, loading, shooting or hunting with a properly chambered .400 Whelen. Having fun? Getting good performance

Can't help you with the 400 Whelen. I build my 400PDK using 2.65" cylinder brass. My shoulder is then moved forward. Using a 400gr Hornady and 2.65" case my OAL is 3.34". What I can tell you is built with the correct shoulder dia there is no headspace issue.

Can't help you the 400 Whelen....Re-barreled a Win mod 70 to 400H&H quite happy with performance pushing a 400grainer at 2400fps. Just received bullets from Dan at CEB waiting for warmer weather to work up loads for my September trip to Zim

It's funny I just came in here to post basically the same question. After readint the same articles I am thinking about building one myself. I believe the article said he purchased reamers etc from Pacific.

I think a steel receiver BLR would be a great platform for a 400 Whelen

ElCaballero: Yes, from Dave Kiff at Pacific Precision. Dave is a very nice guy.

I built a 400 Whelen last year on a left handed model 70. I have been working loads up as time permits and have run around 400 rounds down range so far. My 400 is based on the original case dimensions that Michael Petrov presented in his research. Michael is right. Head spacing issues with this round are a myth. I have had no "head space" issues with the round at all.

I had a local smith install the Shilen barrel and cut the chamber. He has a reamer based on the original 400 Whelen design. It should be noted that, as Michael Petrov's research bore out, the 400 Whelen is not simply the 30-06 or 35 Whelen opened up to .411. It is in fact one of the earliest improved designs. Townsend Whelen saw fit to give it a shoulder diameter of .458 as opposed to the 30-06's .441. The differences in the various 400 Whelen versions (400 BW and 411 Hawk) are negligible and what one will do the others will duplicate.

I started making cases for mine by using the Cream of Wheat fire forming method while I waited for my dies to arrive. I found that LC Match 30-06 and 16.4 grains of Bullseye, topped with COW to the top of the neck and a section of crayon jammed in the neck to hold everything in place, gave me a very well formed case. I then neck sized them in a 41 mag die and started my test loads. The dies arrived from CH-4D and have worked wonderfully.

I have tried both of the Hornady 300 grain bullets, the 300 grain Barnes TSX, 400 grain Woodleigh, the 300, 350 and 400 Hawks and I resized some 350 grain Speer 416's to .411 and was surprised to find they shot as well as any of the bullets tried. The Barnes, Woodleighs and Speers shot really well. The Hornady 300 grain bullets also shot well but don't feed particularly well due to their shortness. The Hawk bullets have not shown me any good groups on any kind of consistent basis. That's not meant to be disparaging of Hawk bullets, just that my gun does not like them.

I have worked with H4895, IMR 30301, IMR 4064, IMR 4198 and Reloader 15. The IMR 4064 proved to be to slow. Reloader 15 has turned in some great groups but I forgot my chronograph on the last trip to the range so cannot report on velocity. The H4895 and IMR 3031 both turned in good accuracy with the velocities I was expecting. I am getting 2400 fps with 300 grain bullets, 2250-2300 with 350 grainers, and 2150 with 400 grain bullets.

I plan to use the rifle exclusively this season for all my Alaska hunting, even sheep if I get to go.

Here's some pics from my work with the 400. Hope you enjoy.

Mart

The 30-06, 35 Whelen and 400 Whelen


Some of the supplies. Some bullets and some Qual-Cart brass. Expensive but good and properly headstamped.


Some COW fireformed LC Match brass.


Some fireforming failures. I had a 10% failure rate for G.I. and commercial brass.


The rifle with the barrel still in the white.I need to get a barrel band swivel and front sight on it yet and get it blued.

Mart As I said my 400PDK is 2.65" and shoulder forward but darn close other than that.


Easiest way to make brass is contact Wayne at AHR and buy some Howell basic trim and run in your sizing die.

Mart: Thanks so much for your report. Very encouraging on the 400-grain bullet velocities.
I wonder if Re17 would do well in the .400.

Based on what I've seen you can load a compressed load of Rl 15 or 4895. I would think Rl17 to be too slow.

Mart what is your barrel length? 2150 with a 400 is great velocity. What OAL are you loading to?

I still need to chronograph my RL15 loads to know what they are doing. I did try 4064 and after looking at my load data had tried some BL-C2. Both turned out lower velocities than the slightly faster 4895 and 3031. I will post my RL15 velocities after my next trip to the range (hopefully tomorrow). I expect RL17 would be a might slow for the 400 Whelen but cannot say for sure. It has a burn rate very close to 4350 which I am sure would be to slow for the 400.

One gentleman I have been in contact with uses RL15 with his 400 and speaks very highly of it. I was impressed with the grouping it demonstrated. I just wish I had remembered the chronograph. I took everything else including the tripod.

I am quite happy with the 400. It kicks a nice heavy bullet out at a reasonable velocity, has a fairly mild recoil, considering the bullet weight it handles and is accurate.

I would put the recoil of my 8.5 pound 400 about in the middle between my 8 pound 35 Whelen and my 9.5 pound 375 H&H. It is plenty of recoil to have to sit behind at the bench but very manageable in position shooting (granted I haven't tried prone with it).

The H4895 and IMR3031 have showed good performance giving me both the velocity I expected and good accuracy. I expect RL15 to turn in good velocities based on what I have seen from others using it. I think those three powders would give a fellow plenty of options in a 400 Whelen.

Mart

CEB has produce .411 diameter bullets in 400 gr solids, 380 Non Cons and 320gr Non Cons. Give Dan a call at CEB if you are interested. Northfork also has a 360 grn .411. Be advised that some of the .411 bullets out there like the Woodleighs have been designed for the 450-400 and there working range is between 1800-2200 fps. The Hornadys will as Ramrod 340 told me will turn into a grey mist if pushed too fast....
Good luck with your project

At this years SCI show Barnes informed me that they will have .411 diameter 400gr solids and TXS at some point this summer

North Forks and CEB's are too rich for my blood. Barnes and Woodleighs, resized Speers and cast bullets will have to do for my 400. The Woodleighs for the 450-400 are perfect for the 400 Whelen. It duplicates the 450-400's velocity of 2150 with 400 grain bullets.

Mart

ramrod340,

My barrel length is 24 inches and the OAL is 3.28, essentially what the magazine will comfortably allow for length. The loads with 4895, 3031 and RL15 have all been compressed loads.

Mart

What causes case failures up on the neck like that? Is it too tight in the chamber in the neck area?

Those failures were all during fireforming with Cream of Wheat. I suspect the brass had been reloaded a few times and must have had a flaw of some sort. I annealed all the cases but some of them failed. I really don't know what made them go like that other than a possible unseen flaw in the brass and have never had a loaded round fail in that manner.

Mart

mart,
Very interesting, thanks.
I had only one minor case mouth split in fireforming 150 rounds of .338 Lapua Magnum brass (Lapua brand) to .500-caliber wildcat.
My brass was new, unfired stuff prior to fireforming, and the Lapua factory puts a nice anneal on the case neck and shoulder after they size the basic down to .338.

Crap do happen more often with mixed-history/make, non-virgin brass.
I was very pleased to get 149 good ones out of 150 fire forms.
Crap do happen occasionally with brand new .338 Lapua Magnum brass too.

RIP, I think factory Lapua is some of the best-blended, best-annealed brass you can buy.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
RIP, I think factory Lapua is some of the best-blended, best-annealed brass you can buy.

Yep, and Lapua makes 30-06 brass too.
Going from 30-06 to 400 Whelen with virgin 30-06 from Lapua might be nice.

I'm a bonehead. I went to the range today with every intention of chronographing some of the 400 Whelen loads with RL15. I loaded five rounds each of the most accurate loads with the 300 grain Barnes TSX, 350 grain resized Speers, and 400 grain Woodleighs. I got the target stand all set up with plenty of targets, the Lead Sled with bags of shot. Set up the chronograph and lined everything up. Now where is my ammo. Back home on the bench. It will be three weeks now till I can get back to the range. Man I feel like a tard.

Mart

Been there, done that.

I think I was distracted trying to get my Redhawk 45 Colt back together. I was fighting with it, watching and re-watching the Ruger tech tips videos. I had the cylinder's undersized throats opened up and just got it back today. I had wanted to shoot it but after wrestling with for an hour, gave up and got my range gear and 400 stuff together, minus the ammo. After my return tonight (I did remember to take my shotgun and shooting jacket for the league shoot) I tried the Redhawk again. Went together perfect first time. Can I have a do over on today?

Mart

Mart: I have done the very same thing.
The other fun one is arriving with ammo and a new-to-you treasure and finding out the firing pin is broken.
Ask me about my circa-1908 Remington Model 8 in .35 Rem. ...

I just read in a gun rag that Quality Cartridge co. makes properly head-stamped 400 whelen cylindrical brass with the proper diameter for the .458" shoulder.

I bought 60 rounds of the Qual Cart 400 Whelen. It was not cheap, $40 for 20 rounds but it is excellent brass. I also found 39 rounds of the old Norma cylindrical brass. Wish I could find a bunch of that, it's exceptionally good brass.

Mart

So what cartridge is the biggest that can be made from 30-06.

quote:

So what cartridge is the biggest that can be made from 30-06.

Being discussed in wildcats.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6521043/m/9791078471

quote:

The other fun one is arriving with ammo and a new-to-you treasure and finding out the firing pin is broken.
Ask me about my circa-1908 Remington Model 8 in .35 Rem. ...

Bill

You might as well get rid of that thing while you still can before you have to pay me to take it.


Hows the back doing by the way?

Cal30

Cal:
PM sent!

I've forgotten a gun before. taking multiple rifles to the range with all the accoutrements, packed all the ammo, forgot one of the rifles.

Red

About that 400 Whelen:

Anyone wanting one could start off with a Ruger Hawkeye M77 in 35 Whelen:

www.whittakerguns.com

There were 7 of them there, for only $469.99 each.
Now there are only 6 left in the store.
Weighs 7 pounds even, with a skinny, muzzle-light barrel of only 0.560" diameter at 22" length.

It truly needs a .411-caliber barrel of heavier contour to make it balance properly.

This is a random 35 Whelen Hawkeye pulled out of Whittaker's store, strangely blond walnut with some striping:

And there is a gunsmith named Rusty McGee with a "Michael Petrov" 400 Whelen reamer from PTG/Dave Kiff, on the way to Hilltop Gun Shop.

A 35 Whelen rebuilt into a 400 Whelen a-la Ruger Hawkeye "African" style would be sweet.

Rusty's first pass at making some brass for fireforming and feed dummies:
He made himself a case neck expander that gets the 30-06 brass expanded to about .460" where the 400 Whelen shoulder would be.





Rusty is riding herd on this cat.
I am still riding herd on another cat for now.
But I will get one of these 400 Whelen rifles built by him, soon as he finishes the other one he is working on.
Still waiting for Pac-Nor to deliver a barrel for that one: .375/404JSof2012 on FN M98 with Duane Wiebe bottom metal.
Herding cats.

Rusty,

aka roughone,

I kind of like mart's COW fireforming method.
He used a Shilen barrel too.
And he says that CH-4D dies work great ...
(Just checking to see if roughone is paying any attention to this thread.)

I have a set of expanders from 30 to 35 and 35 to 411. I seem to get more split cases with them than I do with the COW method. I haven't tried either method with brand new brass to see if there is a difference in failure rates.

I am well satisfied with the CH-4D dies. I have had a number of their dies over the years and never had a bad one. Their prices beat RCBS all to pieces on specialty dies. CH-4D charged me $80 for mine. RCBS wanted nearly $300.

I just spent the afternoon sizing 400 cases and analyzing targets and load data. I have sent a lot of bullets down range and have found my rifle likes the Barnes 300 grain TSX, the 400 Woodleigh and the 350 grain Speer .416 bullet sized to .411. In fact the Speer bullet is far and away the most consistently accurate bullet in my rifle followed closely by the Barnes. I am curious how it will expand at the modest velocities of the 400. It was designed, I think, for the likes of the 416 Rigby and 416 Remington/Weatherby rounds. I guess I need to do a water jug test to see how it expands at 2200-2300 fps.

My rifle also likes the squatty little Hornady 300 grain SP and FP bullets but they don't want to feed worth a darn. I bet they would be a great deer and pig bullet.

Mart

The brass I expanded was "once fired" 35 Whelen that I bought years ago at a gun show when it was hard to find. Of the 45 that I expanded, the one failure was all that occured. I have some new brass that I will try as time permits.

I have had good results with COW in the past. Using an expander is much more quiet.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mart and all the other contributers to this project. I also have wanted a 400 for years but have been scared off by the uniformed informants out there. It is hard to believe that someone would pass on "facts" without verification.

Yes, RIP, I am paying attention. I just have other things to do, also.

Rusty

roughone,
CH-4D seems to do 400 Whelen dies right!

Can't wait for one of you guys to whack an elk, moose or bison with the Whelen ...

Biil,

That makes two of us at least. I am going to carry it for everything I hunt this year even it's still in the white.

Mart