RIP,

all 20 pcs. of the Qual Cart brass that i have
are the same as the 3 i sent you.

with the 3 pcs. of sized & trimmed brass you sent i cannot close the bolt on my old gun.
and i made sure the rim was under the extractor.

i hope my CH4D dies are the right ones, will
a head space gauge provide this info ?

mart,

you sir, are an enabler. i was perfectly happy
to let granddads old rifle remain a safe queen,
although i was getting tired of cleaning it
once a year, now look what you got me into..

Gordon,

Well, it is a good thing you only got 20 pieces of the bad QC brass.
That was a fault of the supplier of the blank basic cylindrical, but Peter Cardona should not let it slip by like that.
I'm sure the next batch will be good.

If that AHR brass (sized and trimmed) won't go into your rifle chamber,
then the proper headspace go gage won't either,
and you will know nothing more about your chamber by trying that.



The empty AHR cases sized and trimmed like I sent to you (above) easily chamber in my rifle and Rusty's,
both chambered with the same Petrov/PTG reamer.

Makes me wonder what gives with your chamber. Could your rifle have an improper chamber?

Easy to fire form a piece of 35 Whelen brass from Remington in it.
And this is for Mart too: I use the Hornady .410-caliber XTP pistol bullets reversed and jambed into the rifling. No Cream-O-Wheat.
48 to 50 grains of IMR3031. 48.5 grains from a 3.7 cc Lee powder scoop sure is easy.

Perfect fire-forming every time.
No extractor headspacing, which may not always work in a Mauser or Ruger Hawkeye.



You just have to neck up the 35 Whelen case enough to seat the nose of the backward Hornady pistol bullet down to the cannelure as shown.
That is all.
The one I show here was necked up further than that and then necked back down to seat the bullet.
That was not necessary.
Just jamb the bullet into the primed, charged case, then jamb the cartridge into the rifling and fire it.
The picture shows how much throat there is in the 400 Whelen-Petrov/PTG.

Fire one of those in your chamber and then measure the shoulder diameter of the formed case.
Or get a chamber casting like Michael Petrov did.
Or send that rifle to Rusty McGee and he'll get it sorted out for you, after we get our brass situation stabilized.

Jim,
Thanks. I recopied your drawings. Max should be satisfied now.

RIP,

When I did the COW thing I didn't have any dies yet nor the expander dies. It was a quick way to get some usable cases so I could make up some full power loads. I wanted to send off some cases that had been fired in my chamber to make sure I got the right dies of the 400 Whelen versions they carry.

Now that I have expander dies and a good 400 grain bullet mold, I can make cases with cast bullets or 41 mag bullets like you suggested.

I know I was depending on the extractor to maintain the headspace for the COW fire forming. It seemed to work fine. I've had no trouble with the cases formed this way. I have been checking for any signs of separation but the cases are holding up great.

I did order 60 rounds of the Qual Cart brass when I was waiting for the dies. Mine have all been uniform in weight and neck thickness. I got them about a year and a half ago.

Mart

Jim and Ron, Didn't mean to chastize. I've been reading along with this forum and really enjoyed it. Guess it is the professor in me that made me ask.
Max

Hey Max no sorry needed...

After running numbers for awhile I don't always catch when my QD program hiccups and doesn't automatically recalculate a data point, that is dependent upon other data points, before posting the results. I do appreciate the error being pointed out so it can be corrected.

Mart,
Good plan to use the cast boolits to fire-form brass.
It will be faultless.

I used the M70 Winchester headspacing on the extractor to fire-form .338 Lapua full-power, bulleted loads into 12.7x68/49-10 brass.
It worked, just rattled those .338 bullets down the .500 barrel.
BUT! Though they always went off when the trigger was pulled, sometimes there was a bit of primer protrusion, not flush.
That means the headspace will be a little short on those cases with the protruding primers.

Sloppy Mausers and Rugers might not work as well as an M70 for headspacing on the extractor.

RIP,

i did the COW fire-forming last year, after i crossed trails w/ "the enabler"... lol, sorry mart

i did have protruding primers... didn't know
what caused that or what it meant. but after
i couldn't get starting loads to fire.

i will try the backward pistol bullets... thanks.

I'd love to see the 400 whelen on a BAR semi Auto

I respect the work -- i have tried to make double rifles, so i at least have a perspective --

good lord, men, the stock is ugly

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I respect the work -- i have tried to make double rifles, so i at least have a perspective --

good lord, men, the stock is ugly

Hardly a hijack, more like a "wrongjack!"
Missed by one line on the click. Wrong thread.

I'll delete this when jeffeosso deletes the above.

OK, jeffeosso is oblivious.
As you were.

I got to the Library of Congress, Washington DC, today at closing time.
Will put in a request to see if they might have access to the April 15, 1924 issue of The American Rifleman magazine, looking for that article by Townsend Whelen about the 400 Whelen,
where Elmer Keith said it was.

Searching the internet, I did find out that the title of the NRA magazine was changed to The American Rifleman in 1923.
The 400 Whelen was there at the beginning.

When I moved into town over twenty years ago I lost several years of AR. Little did I know the .400-Whelen article was one of the missing issues. I have it now and if you give me some time I'll copy it.

The Whelen article is in the September 1, 1923 Issue.

The bullet article with 400 information is the April, 15, 1924.

Hi Michael Petrov,

Please, please do!

Thanks for clarifying the dates on those articles. Elmer Keith got me confused.

I will PM you my email and see if I can get those scans to enhance and post here if you would allow me to assist.

I am some levels beyond "Life" member of the NRA, surely they won't mind if we post the 1923 and 1924 articles.

Maybe I won't have to wait on the Library of Congress. BTW, I moved out of Anchorage 19 years ago. Loved it for 5 years. Wife didn't.

Long live the 400 Whelen!

Ron,

If you're in DC, doesn't the NRA facility in Fairfax, VA keep a cataloged library all of NRA publications? I believe the library is accessible by NRA members?

RIP,

My wife and I get a kick out of watching "The Big Bang Theory". We both find the nerdiness of the group kind of fun. It dawned on me while we were watching the show that I might just be a 400 Whelen nerd.

Mart

quote:

I might just be a 400 Whelen nerd.

Worse things could happen.

i have seen the articles and more from michael petrov
thanks
on iphone
will post more this evening

Thanks to Michael Petrov, the plot thickens.
I did not have time to go to Fairfax, VA.
And I found out that the Library of Congress is about as quick as Congress to get anything done.
I will post the other article, 5 pages, after I digest this one:







And here is another variant of a G&H reamer,
this one from 1956, although it is not compatible with the 1923 cartridge drawing:

Are you guys good and confused yet?

I do think it is great if you can get a standardized dimension. Would be a royal pain with 50 400 Whelen rifles each with a slightly different case shape. No standard then you really have 50 wildcats.

RIP and Michael,

Thanks again for the great information. I don't know of another cartridge I've ever had more interest in. This has been a great trip into wildcat history.

Mart

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Are you guys good and confused yet?

I do think it is great if you can get a standardized dimension. Would be a royal pain with 50 400 Whelen rifles each with a slightly different case shape. No standard then you really have 50 wildcats.

I'm thinking the same thing!
I noticed while looking at dies that CH4D has no fewer than 5 varieties of the .400 Whelen, 6 if you count the Brown-Whelen!

If you look at the drawing in Townsend Whelen's 1 SEP 1923 cartridge drawing:

Shoulder angle = 16 degrees and 40'
Shoulder diameter = .455"
Neck-1 = .431"
Neck-2 = .430"
Max brass length = 2.467"
Bullet diameter = 0.409"

Well, as Michael Petrov has said, the .400 Whelen has evolved over the years.
Yep, maybe fifty different wildcats comprise the 400 Whelen.

Here is that other article from Michael Petrov:












Loaded with modern bullets and powders, the 400 Whelen will be an elephant rifle, and all-around big game rifle,
beyond Townie's well thought out but modest assessment in 1923.

The 400 Whelen Rifleman is well entitled to feel like his balls are big,
ready for anything, with lively, accurate, and powerful 400 Whelen Supreme Five-Shooter in a standard length '06 action.

Speaking of big balls:



These were made about 1692-1693.
The one on the left in the photo is of the constellations, the heavens.
The one on the right is of the earth, and pretty good for 1692.

Trying to move heaven and earth to get the 400 Whelen story straight.
We're not done yet.

If I get a new reamer with .300"-long PS-free-bore, I will call it the "400 Whelen Supreme of 2013."
Still thinking it should use the Petrov/PTG headspace gages, but different neck and throat.
Dies for it will work for the "400 Whelen Petrov of 2003,"
but not the "400 Whelen 1923."

Gordon,

If your 400 Whelen Springfield is chambered like Townie's original cartridge drawing would indicate
(maybe we should call that the "400 Whelen 1923" and Michael Petrov's is then 2003),
you could not chamber the brass I sent to you, sized to fit the 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003.

It ought to clean up with the PTG reamer made for 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003.
Pure speculation, not knowing your neck and case body measurements.

I now have three cartridges to keep straight:
400 Whelen Townie 1923
400 Whelen Petrov 2003
400 Whelen Supreme 2013

If the bullets they used for the original were .409" and today's bullets are mostly .410"-.411" and .409" for solids made for doubles than it makes sense to bump up the original .455" shoulder to .457" for reloading dies and have the chamber slop .005" over for DG tolerances and function?
Those older rifles had a decent amount of chamber slop right?
What matters most is the chamber and brass shoulder position right?
I would want it to headspace off the extractor and have a chamber that was not too tight from what I gather.
This makes me want a shoulderless 400 version better or a hens teeth 400-280 Ross with a semi rim to headspace off of. That actually would be pretty cool. The Ross semi rim is about the same thickness size as the 375 HH belt. 400 Ross. Form from 375 Ruger brass for a true rimless. Now that is taking the road less travelled lol. Only truly crazy wildcat people would go that route It's late and I'm starting to like the idea lol. Take a nap and forget this idea.
Maybe just dream about a .410" 400 Newton. Maybe just make 405 win brass with stronger to take 60k psi. 405 win +P lol. In a Jap made Browning.

boom stick,
Thank you for applying your genius to the 400 Whelen Wildcat.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
If the bullets they used for the original were .409" and today's bullets are mostly .410"-.411" and .409" for solids made for doubles than it makes sense to bump up the original .455" shoulder to .457" for reloading dies and have the chamber slop .005" over for DG tolerances and function?

I like:
Cartridge shoulder of .455" and reamer shoulder of .458".
.003" slop there is plenty, and plenty proven.
Good case taper for feeding, extracting, and case life too. Plenty proven too.


Those older rifles had a decent amount of chamber slop right?
What matters most is the chamber and brass shoulder position right?
I would want it to headspace off the extractor and have a chamber that was not too tight from what I gather.

Extractor-Rim headspacing is not acceptable in the average Mauser and I do not know how Michael gets away with it in his M70's.
His cartridge and reamer specs are proprietary secrets. So you lost me below with the "leap to genius air cartridge."

This makes me want a shoulderless 400 version better or a hens teeth 400-280 Ross with a semi rim to headspace off of. That actually would be pretty cool. The Ross semi rim is about the same thickness size as the 375 HH belt. 400 Ross. Form from 375 Ruger brass for a true rimless. Now that is taking the road less travelled lol. Only truly crazy wildcat people would go that route It's late and I'm starting to like the idea lol. Take a nap and forget this idea.
Maybe just dream about a .410" 400 Newton. Maybe just make 405 win brass with stronger to take 60k psi. 405 win +P lol. In a Jap made Browning.

Just to be respectful to the 400 Whelen:

1. 400 Whelen Townsend 1923
2. 400 Whelen Petrov 2003

That will be my nomenclature for the two that will be hybridized into:

3. 400 Whelen Wildcat 2013

Calling it "Supreme" before it is tested is a bit presumptuous.
Just another 400 Whelen Wildcat anyway.
But it will surely be an excellent one.

Just name it 400 Whelen Berry 2013 so that it'll be easy to track the chambering differences...

One thing I should say although I may have said too much already is that the cartridge evolved. I have some fired cases from one of the first four made by Howe in Philadelphia and it has a .460" shoulder.

The measurements I used were from several .400-Whelen G&H rifles and since the article I have heard from about a half-dozen others and their measurements seem consistent with the early G&H.

The posted G&H drawing shows that even they changed things over the years.

Good luck with this project. Wish I could find an original 38-Whelen.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Petrov:
One thing I should say although I may have said too much already is that the cartridge evolved. I have some fired cases from one of the first four made by Howe in Philadelphia and it has a .460" shoulder.

The measurements I used were from several .400-Whelen G&H rifles and since the article I have heard from about a half-dozen others and their measurements seem consistent with the early G&H.

The posted G&H drawing shows that even they changed things over the years.

Good luck with this project. Wish I could find an original 38-Whelen.

Thanks, Michael Petrov.
You too Jim.
Good idea. Thank you very much.
I am sure there is now going to be a flood of 50 more 400 Whelen Wildcats this year,
so I have to put my name on one of them to keep it straight.
Don't know how much longer I can wait for that Quality Cartridge brass.
Might as well go ahead and order the reamer for the 400 Whelen Berry.

Assume neck wall thickness of 0.009":
loaded neck diameter = .411" + .018" = .429"
Add +.004" diameter for chamber neck-1 = 0.433"
So, for the brass: (shoulder diameter) - (neck-1) = .455 -.429 = .026"
and for the chamber: .458 - .433" = .025"
Neck-2 of brass can be same as neck-1: parallel-sided neck of .429" diameter
Neck-2 of chamber neck will be -.001" smaller than neck-1, for a little taper on the neck: .432" neck-2 chamber diameter.

Chamber shoulder = .458"
Chamber neck-1 = .433"

Chamber and brass length, shoulder angle, and headspace gage: All same as for 400 Whelen Petrov.

Parallel-sided free-bore: length = 0.300", diameter = .412"
Leade angle of throat: 1.5 degrees

That is as tight as I go on the neck, but with that huge shoulder,
there is plenty of room for a thicker neck if brass is thicker.
Hate to have to do any neck turning for the 400 Whelen Berry.

Ron,

Looking at the typical 10-12 weeks minimum for actual production of a reamer, or a reamer/gauges combination, you could spec the chamber reamer neck area based upon the projected 'max' neck wall thickness and get it into the production schedule. Once the 'new production' QC 400 Whelen brass is available/received you can re-spec the neck area and if required have the reamer neck area altered before production - or if post production - have the reamer altered for the minor change.

I think PT&G charges $50 for a production change, haven't contacted them for the cost of a reamer alteration. Manson charges <$50 (brain not fully functioning yet as this head cold just doesn't seem to want to go away) to modify a finished reamer, not sure what they charge for a production change.

Anyway, that's an option for you...

That 1 SEP 1923 article by Whelen cleared up the pressure question of whether it was PSI or CUP, in that previous load data from Michael Petrov's archive: PSI.

Whelen et al tested loads and came up with a powder that gave 300-grainer at 2400 fps and 48,000 PSI.
Whelen also tabled a load with the wrong powder that gave 300-grainer at 2455 fps and 60,700 PSI.

I want 200 pieces of good brass before I order the reamer to match that brass.
Trying not to be weak and jump the gun like Jim suggests.

I have a 500 Bateleur to pick up tomorrow ... Bertha is about to be liberated from the spa.

PSI or CUP reported by Townsend Whelen for the 400 Whelen pressure data back in 1923?
Bounced the question off Rusty McGee, Gunsmith and Mechanical Engineer: His opinion is that in 1923, they were stuck with CUP/copper crusher method.
This may have been misguidedly interpreted as PSI when it should have been reported as CUP?
There is no straight conversion of CUP to PSI, and any given absolute pressure in PSI will give different CUP values in different cartridges, etc.

48,000 CUP might be 58,000 PSI in one cartridge or another.

I managed to pick up some Norma unformed 30-06 brass today on GB. Was it one of you guys that made me pay so much for it? I probably paid too much for it but I have 40 rounds of it already and it is excellent brass. And I still got it cheaper than the Qual cart brass. I just got turned on to this from another supplier. Anyone know who the maker is?

Mart

30-06 cylindrical

Nice find, Mart.
Never met any Norma brass I did not like: Weatherby, 404 Jeffery, etc., etc.
Does not Norma of Sweden make its own brass, like Lapua of Finland?
How long is that Norma basic cylindrical?
How thick is the case wall at the mouth?
Does it have a blank headstamp?

I found some Norma blank basic cylindrical .416 Rigby once upon a time,
100 pieces just sitting on the shelf at Reloader's Bench in Mt. Juliette, TN, on I-40, home of the world's first Cracker Barrel eatery.

Oh, I see, the unknown maker is the brass from Buffalo Arms?

Well, well ... Nice find there too ... maybe ...

RIP,

Thanks. I figured one of the brotherhood of the 400 was bidding me up on the brass. It is excellent brass and doesn't show up that often.

I will measure the Norma brass when it gets here. I have already trimmed my current Norma brass. I don't have a neck thickness micrometer. I guess I should get one.

The headstamp says "NORMA Re Special". That's somehow appropriate as I am special (in a short bus kind of way).

I'm with you on the Norma brass. Every caliber I've used it in has been exceptional in quality.

On the Buffalo Arms brass I am curious as to who makes it. I may have to order some to check it out.

Mart

RIP,

Don't know what I was thinking. For some reason I had it in mind that I needed a ball micrometer. I just checked with my vernier caliper. The neck thickness on the Norma I have right now is .009. They are all very consistent in several spots around the neck. My fireformed LC62 brass is pretty consistent at .008. All my Qual Cart brass currently is loaded so will have shoot some to get the thicknesses on it.

I'm headed to the range in a couple of weeks to try out some new loads so will have some Qual Cart brass to check then.

I am trying some 400 grain Barnes Super Solids and several 350 grain bullets. I am going to be trying the 350 Swift A frame, 360 grain North Fork, 350 Hawk (again), and some resized 350 grain Speer .416's.

Elmer Keith recommended IMR3031 in the 400 and I have found that powder to be a great performer. It and H4895 have done the best for me so far. If I could find some Reloader 15 I'd try it some more. Right now RL15 is nowhere to be found.

Mart,
Good to know about that Norma basic neck thickness, and the length of case as cylindrical basic is, is?
I am stuck on waiting out QualCart for the next batch of 400 Whelen.
I hope it is .009" at case mouth wall thickness too.
Thickens a little when you neck it down, eh?

quote:

and the length of case as cylindrical basic is, is

Too short for me I bet.

RIP,

As soon as the Norma brass gets here I'll get a length for you. The stuff i have right now I have trimmed to length for my 400. I don't recall if what the length was originally. I will measure the stuff that's coming and let you know.

I really doubt there will much for neck thickening since it's not being reduced very much but I will mike the necks on this stuff prior to running them into the die and again after sizing.

Do you know if Buffalo Arms is drawing their own 30-6 cylindrical brass or is someone else supplying them? I don't have any experience with their products.

Mart

Mart,

Buffalo Arms company is more along the lines of a Cabela's or Midway USA, but heavy into the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle antiquities,
and I know of no better supplier for that!
They are great to do business with, I have ordered BPCR stuff from them, and they always satisfied me.
But I doubt that Buffalo Arms makes the brass themselves.
Might be from the same maker as the AHR stuff, so plan accordingly.
You would do a great service to the 400 Whelen Fraternity by reporting on it, if you order some.
Ditto the Norma 30-06 basic cylindrical when you get it.
I will continue to wait for the latest batch of Quality Cartridge 400 Whelen brass.