Loading .411/300gr Hornady SP with H4198 and magnum primers for the next outing (F215).
The sky is the limit. Can't believe everything you read in QuickLOAD.
WILDCATS RELOADED
Certifying Body: R.I.P.

The 400WB dummies:





The QualCart 400 Whelen cylindrical brass that is 2.606" long to start with grows to 2.620" when it is run through the RCBS 400 Whelen FL sizer.

Then it is trimmed to 2.490" (max 2.494", trim-to 2.484" min).
Loaded as shown the Cartridge Overall Length is 3.355", with the Barnes TSX FB .411/300-gr.
This fits the 30-06-length box nicely, and fits the 400 Whelen Berry throat perfectly: Accuracy expected.

5 dummies can be crammed into the M70 Winchester box and will retain, but bolt cannot be closed over all 5, so this is a 4 + 1 capacity rifle as is, as previously stated.
5-Shooter firepower plus accuracy expected.

Rusty McGee made sure it feeds well.

The shoulder will sharpen on first firing.

The dummies chamber well in the 400 Whelen Berry using 400 Whelen Petrov dies. No problems.

The 400 Whelen Berry is more positive in headspacing, by only .003" extra on the shoulder/neck-1 difference, due to that much less neck taper.
Neck-2 diameter is same for 400WB and 400WP.
400WB also has an extra 0.112" of throat length, with 0.300" long parallel-sided free-bore.
400WB has a customary 0.015" plus tolerance on minimum chamber length (2.509") over the maximum brass length (2.494").

Dies that work just fine for the 400 Whelen Berry of 2013, with Quality Cartridge brass:

CH4D: "400 Whelen JGS"
RCBS: "400 Whelen, P/N: 57060"



Goal: 2530 fps with this 300-grainer. +2200 fps with 400-grainer is easy.
Like having a .375 H&H and a 450/400NE in one 30-06-sized rifle.
Maybe 2500-2600 fps with a GSC HV .411/317-grainer: The brass cartridge case is the limiting factor.
North Fork .411/300gr SP might go 2500-2600 fps too.
The sadly "miss-under-estimated" 400 Whelen might be a better game-getter than a .375 H&H.
Mach 3 with a CEB brass NonCon of lighter weight would really bring it up to date.

Aha... 2.06" cylindrical brass - definitely seems to call for a formed 2.60" case length - just convert the magazine to work at .375 H&H length. One could refer to it as the 400 Whelen Long while keeping to same head-stamp. Should definitely add some performance to the mix...

Jim,
Member ramrod340 has already done a +2.6" 400 PDK.
The 400 Whelen/405 WCF bullets are short-nosed and work with that in a .30-06 box.
I feel no urgent need to go to longer case than the 2.494" max.
What we really need is a long-nosed, ballistic-tipped, boat-tailed .411/300-grainer.
Like a Walterhog for the 400 Whelen, could be loaded long to fill a 3.6" box, loaded short for a 3.4" box, throated "just right."

I took a 40-caliber flintlock out in the rain this morning, thanks to the gracious host who built the rifle and the deer stands.
I did not see a deer. No fault of gracious host who cannot control the weather.

I got rained out of chronographing, but did fire 10 rounds into a dirt berm in a backyard, in the rain.

6 pieces of QualCart brass were fired for first time, with 300-gr TSX.
Starting load was 52.0 grains of H4198, with F215 "Magnum" large rifle primer, in the 400 WB.
No problems with the QualCart brass so far.





Rusty de-capped the other 3 pieces and measured the primer pockets with his guage. No primer pocket expansion was noted.

The Quality Cartridge brass seems to be adequately hard.
I will anneal the case necks after I get a big enough batch fired.

The QC brass is also lighter in weight and has about 3 grains H2O greater capacity than AHR and RP brass.
They grow about 0.005" in length on initial fire-forming of the sized cases. These cases went from 2.487" to 2.492" average of only 3 cases:

Weight of case: 176.1 grains, including spent primer.
H2O gross, fired, not resized: 82.2 grains.

By comparison, the AHR basic and the RP 35 Whelen fire-formed both weigh about 202 to 205 grains and hold about 79.0 to 79.1 grains of water, latest check.

The QC brass has quite a bit of needlessly removed brass from the head for that funky taper above the extractor groove cut. That will not make the brass stronger.
Seems good so far, however.
Feeds well, fits bolt face and extractor well.

Maybe the Magnum primer was "overkill" on the ignition of starting load.
When I get to chronograph the H4198 I will start over with the Winchester WLR standard large rifle that has worked so well previously in the 400 WP,
with extruded powders up to about 60-grain charge.
Save the magnum primers for the ball powders, for now.

I get to update QuickLOAD to 82 grains instead of 79 next time I QL the 400 WB.

quote:

Aha... 2.06" cylindrical brass - definitely seems to call for a formed 2.60" case length - just convert the magazine to work at .375 H&H length. One could refer to it as the 400 Whelen Long while keeping to same head-stamp. Should definitely add some performance to the mix...

As RIP said I built my 400PDK and left it 2.65". In a 3.34" magazine the longer case provides you with the option to load long and still use the cannelure and crimp your bullets. Your net powder capacity is the same if they are loaded to the same OAL. Using the cannelure of most bullets I don't even use the full 3.4" box.

RIP I've never found the need for a magnum primer in my PDK. I did very limited testing when I first built it and found the std primer seemed to give a more uniform velocity at least with 4895.

I can move the 300gr Hornady's over 2700 so I would think you should have no trouble with your 2500+ goal. I need to get some Barnes and do some more testing.

Well I got out last week to test some AA2495 as a possible replacement for H4895. I was disappointed. It performed well enough with the 375 Whelen but showed very low velocities with the 400. It must be considerably slower even though it is pretty close on the burn rate chart.

I tested loads from 56-59 grains with the 400 grain Hornady. Grouping was good, on a par with the H4895 but velocities were from 1956-2060. The same held true for the Swift 350 and North Fork 360. AA2495 ran over 100 fps slower with the AA2495 than the H4895. I tried it with some Barnes 300 grain X bullets and took it up to 63 grains. Velocity was 2225 on the high end. Looks like it's back to the drawing board. We have a gun show coming up December 6-7. If I find an eight pounder of H or IMR 4895 I will be leaving with it, assuming it's not through the roof for price.

H4895 for 400-grainers.
Thanks for saving me from wasting the AA2495, Mart.

I am going to continue experiments with the much faster H4198 and 300-grainers.
I might be able to get into the "fire" with that combo,
soon as I can hop out of my current frying pan.

400 Whelen B chronographed loads yesterday at 45 F temperature, cloudy, Oehler worked.
Quality Cartridge brass was sized in the RCBS "400 Whelen Petrov of 2003" aka "G&H" dies.
It was trimmed to 2.484" minimum, 2.494" maximum, and primed with WLR, Winchester-brand standard, large rifle primer.
The brass is high quality.
No problems, batch from 2013 year.

.410/210-grain Hornady XTP-HP, just for grins, at least it is good for fire-forming:
H4198
60.0 grains >>> 2761 fps
61.0 grains >>> 2780 fps
62.0 grains >>> 2804 fps
5-shot velocity averages, and Sd average of about 34 fps for the above loads, and none very accurate.

.411/300-grain Hornady SP, very useful for sampling top end velocity for this bullet weight,
3.250" COAL with second cannelure by CH4D tool:

H4198:
54.0 grains >>> 2290 fps, 5-shot average (all loads here), Sd = 16 fps
H322 Extreme a "best" powder for 300-grainers:
63.0 grains >>> 2535 fps, Sd = 12 fps (~98% fill at 3.250" COAL)
H4895 Extreme
66.0 grains >>> 2520 fps, Sd = 13 fps (mildly compressed)

H322 it is for 300-grainers,
H4895 for 400-grainers.

QuickLOAD prediction for this 300-grainer with H322 63.0 grains was MV = 2540 fps @ 57,001 psi for my 25" barrel.
My 5 yard chronograph velocity was only 5 fps below this.
BC = .250, so corrected to MV, my actual velocity becomes +16 fps = 2535 + 16 = 2551 fps.

QL prediction for this bullet with H322 65.0 grains is 2605 fps @ 62,866 psi.
That is about 101% of useable case capacity.
The QualCart brass at 2.494" length holds 82.0 grains of water to top of case with a level meniscus, "overflow."

Projecting to that load in my rifle gives 2621 fps MV.

It remains to be seen how this translates to the longer monometal copper .411/300-grain TSX,
or a GSC HV that is close to 317-grain weight.

Safe to say, the "400 Whelen Berry of 2013" will better the classic ballistics (KE) of two famous killers:
Both the .375 H&H .375/300-grainer at 2530 fps and the 450/400 NE .410/400-grainer at 2150 fps.
That is easy enough with a 24" to 25" barrel on a 5-shot bolt action,
whether Winchester M70, Ruger Hawkeye, or Mauser M98, or other standard length action.
Now on to 2014.
Happy New Year.

As Mr. Burns would say in his sinister
Way... "Ehhhxcelent"

Has anyone done the mini 400 Whelen aka the 400 BR? Would be fun with pistol bullets and 400 grain subsonics. I wonder what fps could be achieved with 300 grain 405 Win bullets at 2.25" OAL.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Has anyone done the mini 400 Whelen aka the 400 BR? Would be fun with pistol bullets and 400 grain subsonics. I wonder what fps could be achieved with 300 grain 405 Win bullets at 2.25" OAL.

boom stick,
Sorry to say I have not done a "Mini 400 Whelen aka the 400 BR." I think I would rather use a .41 Magnum Ruger Blackhawk,
and just leave the void between that and the 400 Whelen unfilled.

Latest addition to www.ammoguide.com:





... and H4895 seems to be a "Best" powder with 400-grainers in the 400 Whelen, either Petrov or Berry variants.

I am waiting for a GSC HV bullet that is going to be for .411 groove and .404 bore.
It will be custom fitted by merely bumping up the minor diameter to .404" from current .403-minor/.411-major proprietary specs
on an existing GSC HV bullet that weighs 317 grains.
Should be only a few grains heavier than 317 grains.
That should be a 400 Whelen-Berry maximizer of KE.



Prototype drawing:



Tweak:

I just found a case of RL-10X. If global warming ever returns I will continue testing. There are still some holes in the bullet chart to be plugged using 10X.

Great! Whenever the snow, ice, and chronograph-freezing abates with the return of global warming,
you must let me know when you are shooting at your range,
if I may bring some new 400 Whelen-B loads to add to the short-list above, please, Sir Rusty.
My list is corrected to muzzle velocity, 25" barrel, only my rifle.
My new bullet is a 317-grainer:



To refresh, and point out variances,
here is the 400 Whelen-Petrov list of loads to which you will be adding.
All should note that this data is for 5-yard chronograph velocity, and various rifles with 23.6" and 24" barrels, all 400 Whelen-Petrov,
Mart's, yours, mine:

You are welcome to come on down, but right now my 4WD truck can't make it there because of the ice. After the thaw there will be the mud. We might make by April. Can you wait that long?

The website where I got the RL-10X had some RL-15 but I was too late. I assume that means some is getting imported. We can only hope.

What is the length of your new bullet compared to the Barnes 300 gr.?

Dang that Global Warming! Never there when you need it!
I got stuck in the ice and snow trying to let myself into Rockhill range yesterday, had to abort the mission. I'll keep trying there.
Hopefully I will be around in April.

I found the last 2 pounds of RL-17 at Rajo's in Evansville, IN, last week. I have about 2 pounds of H322 left.
Plenty of Benchmark if I have to make do with a slower-than-H322, powder.

The new GSC HV .411/317-grainer is 1.540".
But .835" of that is long and pointy nose, and it has a boat tail.
With my new trim-to-length for brass being 2.500" (max 2.501"),
this new bullet seated deep (crimped below first driving band) will give COaL of 3.335", and work through the magazine box.
That 1.257"-long Barnes TSX has a nose length of only .632" for use in lever action M1895s.
Not as pretty, and lower BC.

Start pressure for QuickLOAD for this GSC HV bullet will be 750 psi.
I might be able to get it moving fast enough. I have a need. A need for speed. Might have to go to H4198.

Sounds like a plan Ron!

I just got in on this and this may have been covered earlier but...wouldn't it be easier to start with .240 Weatherby Magnum brass? The belt would negate the problems inherent in the lack of a shoulder on 30/06 sized brass? Just curious.

quote:

Originally posted by steyrsteve:
I just got in on this and this may have been covered earlier but...wouldn't it be easier to start with .240 Weatherby Magnum brass? The belt would negate the problems inherent in the lack of a shoulder on 30/06 sized brass? Just curious.

(He don't get it.)

The object is to relive the days of yore, getting as close as we can to original 400 Whelen as designed back in the 20's.

If you go back and read more you will find that the shoulder on the case is adequate for head space.

If we wanted easy we could just neck the 416 Taylor down to .411. But then it wouldn't be a Whelen. And a 416 would be better because of bullet selection.

Logic and practicality have place in this project.

I got sucked into the .400 Whelen web years ago, and finally got around to building a rifle on an '03 Springfield. I have 30 test round loaded up with 300gr Hornys, 350gr resized Speers and 400gr Hornys. I see Woodleigh 400 grainers are popular, but I am not seeing much work being done with the Hornadys. Any particular reason for that, or is it just because people have Woodleighs on hand?

My rifle was chambered with a JGS reamer to Petrov specs and I have dies from C4HD, but they seem to reduce the shoulder diameter from .458" to .456". Did they send me the wrong dies? They are marked ".400 Whelen", NOT ".400 Whelen JGS".

Once I get some time off and a decent range day, I will see if this beast goes "bang" in more or less the right direction. And I will also see if my rifle is a little too light for caliber....

And yes, this is all Mart's fault...and Elmer's, and COL Whelen's....

Mossyrock
In the Great Pacific NorthWet

quote:

Originally posted by Mossyrock:
I got sucked into the .400 Whelen web years ago, and finally got around to building a rifle on an '03 Springfield. I have 30 test round loaded up with 300gr Hornys, 350gr resized Speers and 400gr Hornys. I see Woodleigh 400 grainers are popular, but I am not seeing much work being done with the Hornadys. Any particular reason for that, or is it just because people have Woodleighs on hand?

The Hornady 400-grainers are .410" diameter while the Woodleighs being used are .411"-diameter.
Of course they both work just fine for 400-grainers, but the slightly higher velocity with the full-diameter bullet is more impressive.

My rifle was chambered with a JGS reamer to Petrov specs and I have dies from C4HD, but they seem to reduce the shoulder diameter from .458" to .456". Did they send me the wrong dies? They are marked ".400 Whelen", NOT ".400 Whelen JGS".

.458" is the chamber reamer shoulder diameter minimum. Brass that is .456" in diameter at the shoulder should work. In fact .455" is more a usual brass maximum spec at that diameter.

Once I get some time off and a decent range day, I will see if this beast goes "bang" in more or less the right direction. And I will also see if my rifle is a little too light for caliber....

And yes, this is all Mart's fault...and Elmer's, and COL Whelen's....

Mossyrock
In the Great Pacific NorthWet

Thanks for reminding us, for when the freeze thaws and the mud dries up. Where has "global warming" gone too this winter?

I had mine out yesterday shooting it. Was cold and clear with no wind!
I shot 58 grains of TAC and 400 grain Hornadys
with an average velocity of 2065 average.
Then shot 59 grains TAC and same bullet for an average of 2109 fps.
I use the C4HD dies and used Michael Petrov's reamer, dies were ordered to the reamer spec's and my dies are marked 400 Whelen.
Mine is built on a 1903 Springfield, I'll show some pictures cuz I'm pretty darn happy with it. It has a Timney trigger, m7o style wing safety, reshaped NECG front sight and a standing rear with one leaf rear sight.
I have a 2-7 Leupold on it in quick release mounts since the pictures.
Good luck with yours!

Very nice! Whose stock is that?

I bought it from a guy who said he got it from Cabela's, I found no markings on it. Kevin Weaver painted it up for me and bedded it when he did all the metal work on the rifle.
It is a great fit for that rifle in size and layout.

Did a little work with the 400 Whelen on Tuesday. Once again H4895 proved itself a winner. I shot this 100 yard 10 shot group with Barnes 300 grain TSX bullets over 62 grains of H4895, a Winchester 120 primer and Norma cylindrical brass formed to 400 Whelen. The brass had been previously fire formed in other load development and had an case length of 2.495. The average velocity was 2408 fps. Over all length is 3.330, which seems to be the magic OAL for all Whelen rounds. It seems to work well fro the 35, 375 and 400 Whelen. The old Whelen continues to impress.

I shot a few rounds at 200 and 300 yards. With a 200 yard zero it is 20 inches low at 300 and 2 inches high at 100. The pretty closely mimics the 400 grain Woodleigh at 2150 which is two inches high at 100, two inches low at 200 and 21 inches low at 300.

Mart,

Excellent shooting.
It is going to be hard to match that with the 400 Whelen-B.

Your latest load has been added to www.ammoguide.com

I see you have let your brass grow long.

If I can't dazzle with brilliance, I can at least baffle with ...
I been thinking I will fire-form the next batch of 400 Whelen-B brass at 2.509" using .410-diameter pistol bullets,
headspacing on the case mouth.
Then trim it down to 2.500" minimum, 2.500" maximum, for the real shooting.

However, it still hurts to breathe, broken rib last week, playing lumberjack,
so late April may be my date with the .411/317gr GSC HV.

I have sized and trimmed 50 of the QualCart cases to 2.505".
Dummy below is as long as I can go and still fit the GSC .411/317-grain HV to work in the M70 magazine: C.O.L. = 3.370"



The superficial scratch on the case bodies below the shoulder (in above picture) is from the chamfer/deburring tool, and can be avoided.

I will anneal the cases and then fire-form before doing some real work on loads with the pointy GSC bullet above.
The .410-caliber Hornady bullets (210-grainer and 400-grainer) will be used as plinkers for fire-forming with full pressure loads.

I am hoping that sharpening the shoulder with fire-forming will shorten the case to 2.500".
With 2.505" brass I am pretty close to headspacing on the case mouth.
Chamber minimum length is 2.509".

When things warn up back there it'll be interesting to determine how much your QC cases shorten during the fire forming operation.

Jim,
It's warm enough here,
just letting a cracked rib heal, and busy with other stuff not hobby related.
I shall report.

Get yourself healthy Ron. The peanut gallery can wait.

It is done, Jim.



Strangely enough, starting at 2.505" brass length, after fire-forming, they averaged 2.508".
The shortest was 2.501".
The longest was 2.515".
Six of the twenty measured were 2.509", the "mode."
2.509" is supposed to be my minimum chamber length by reamer spec.
I don't know if I headspaceed on the case mouth or what, but it was flawless.
It should be safe to declare a minimum case length of 2.500" and a maximum of 2.501".
Trim to 2.500" for the "400 Whelen-B".

Yep I'd say you were back...

Quality Cartridge brass after fire forming, re-sized, trimmed to 2.500", annealed, polished, loaded to C.O.L. of 3.375"
with GSC .411/317-grain custom bullet:



Hoping to chronograph them tomorrow,
10 shots with each charge of H322 shown,
except the last one (60.0 grains) which will be aborted if excessive ...

Cute little critter lineup Ron... Should be a great combo once you identify your loading sweet spot.

If one had a 1903a3 and wanted to re-bore it to this caliber is that plausible or would there not be enough barrel to do it? I was thinking about going 35 Whelen but having a 350 Rem Mag I am sort of reluctant to basically duplicate it with a longer action rifle.

Palladin8,

IIRC, an original 1903 A3 barrel is about 24" long,
but I do not recall what the muzzle diameter is.
This is supposed to be a picture of one snagged from the internet:



If you can cut it to a length where the outside diameter is .411 + .250" = .661" I would say go for it, or get a new barrel.
Use a no.4 sporter minimum, or a no.5 sporter maximum, for a 24" barrel length.
You can go lighter if you want to go shorter.

400 Whelen-B outing yesterday:

Good load is 60.0 grains of H322 with .411/317-grain GSC HV, C.O.L. 3.370", WLR primer:

Chronograph: 7-shot average velocity = 2420 fps, Sd = 12 fps



5-shot group with a flier, called of course,
still getting used to the trigger.
I am not as good as the rifle is.
Moved on to next target for last 2 shots with this charge, only 7 rounds loaded with this top-end charge, of 47 loaded.
10 shots with each of the lesser charges (57, 58, 59, 59.5) were fired, and will be recorded for posterity.

QuickLOAD predicted 2521 fps MV for the 60.0-grain H322 load.
Chronograph velocity was 101 fps less.

But wait, I have enough throat to load out to 3.550" C.O.L. ...



Now to see if Rusty can remove the spacer from the rear of the M70 box and open the action up to 3.6" length,
maybe use the Duane Wiebe trapezoidal XRM box for an extra cartridge down in the box ...

Should be pretty easy for Rusty to accomplish the conversion though it may be facilitated by swapping a few parts for the 3.6" magazine related parts...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Palladin8,

IIRC, an original 1903 A3 barrel is about 24" long,
but I do not recall what the muzzle diameter is.
This is supposed to be a picture of one snagged from the internet:



If you can cut it to a length where the outside diameter is .411 + .250" = .661" I would say go for it, or get a new barrel.
Use a no.4 sporter minimum, or a no.5 sporter maximum, for a 24" barrel length.
You can go lighter if you want to go shorter.

So I just measured it and it looks like I am at 22" +/- for the .661" minimum. It was right at .665". Not sure what the optimum barrel length for the caliber is though. I will have to call JES tomorrow and see about having it done.

Ah-SO! .665" O.D. at 22" length. Good to go.
Now I want a 1903 A3 to have barrel re-bored and cut to 22".
Should lose less than 50 fps MV compared to 24" usual barrel.
Sholud be able to get 400-grainers up to 2150 fps.
Might be able to get a 1:12" twist instead of usual 1:14" twist.
That would be interesting too.
Keep us posted on the details please.