I'll be passing through Falls of Rough, KY anytime from 21 SEP to 25 SEP, 2013, maybe the 400 Whelen Berry of 2013 will be finished in 2013.

But will you have time to shoot it?

Oh yes! If I get it in my hands on Saturday, 9-21-2013, I will shoot it on Sunday, 9-22-2013, etc., etc.
Chronograph it too, using our "400 Whelen Petrov of 2003" max loads as starting loads and add one grain of powder.
My son has a serious girlfriend from the family "Whalen" of Illinois and Missouri.
Maybe we could misstamp the next one "400 Whalen-Berry."

Revisionist

Maybe we can send the next one out for engraving.

The latest: 25" barrel, No. 4 Shilen sporter contour, 1:14" twist. M70 Stainless Classic that started off as a 270 WCF Featherweight in Tupperware stock.
It first got rebarreled to 35 Brown Whelen, now it is a 400 Whelen Berry of 2013. A switch barrel!
With aluminum pillars, front-of-box reinforcement by Rusty McGee, and glass bedding, the Tupperware Lilly has been gilded:












I think I will leave the front sling stud where it is.
Putting it out on the tip of the schnabel would be like putting a wart on the nose.
As is, it is far enough forward not to hurt my hand.
I might even grip the tip of the schnabel with my left index finger. Shutzen-style, jawohl!

The scope and rings (30mm Leupold QRW medium height) weigh 1#-6oz. Silicone adhesive in rings.
Scope bases are held on with 8X40 screws and JB Weld.
Scoped rifle weighs 9#-4oz.
Rifle with scope bases only, no sights, weighs 7#14oz.
With a 2.5X Leupold Ultralight scope in QRW rings, it would weigh about 8.5 lbs.
Even the Leupold VX3 1.5-5X20mm would keep it under 9 pounds. Good back-up scopes.

Will start with 58-grain charge of H4895 and 400-grain Woodleigh, and work up
... then work down to 300-grain TSX with H322
... starting where we left off with the 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003.

Shot the "400 Whelen Berry" yesterday.

Barrel: 25" stainless, Shilen, 1:14", .411-groove, .404-land/bore
Temperature: 75 degrees F
Bullet: Woodleigh .411"/400-gr RNSP/Weldcore
Brass: Remington 35 Whelen, fireformed and sized to 2.470" length
Primer: WLR (standard large rifle)
Cartridge Overall Length: With Woodleigh crimped at bottom edge of cannelure = 3.222"
Powder: H4895 Extreme, charge = 60.0 grains

Oehler data at 15 feet distance to initial/start screen:
1. 2196 fps
2. 2195 fps
3. 2198 fps
4. 2199 fps
5. 2200 fps
High = 2200 fps
Low = 2195 fps
mean = 2197 fps
Extreme Spread = 5 fps
Standard Deviation = 2 fps, for 5 shots.
Using the listed BC of .307 for this bullet:
To correct the 5-yard/15-foot chronograph velocity to Muzzle Velocity, add 12 fps.

MV = 2197 + 12 = 2209 fps.

I have more to share, after I get it posted at www.ammoguide.com

5 shots each load:

Bullet Wt. (gr) ... Powder Type ... Charge (gr) ... Muzzle Vel. (fps) ... K.E. (ft-lbs) ... Barrel Length (in) ...COL (in) ... SD (fps) for 5 shots
300 (TSX) ................ H-322 ............ 60.5 (C) ...... 2452 .....................4007 ............ 25.0 ........................ 3.325 ...... 5
400 (RNSN W'leigh). H-4895 ........... 58.0 (F) ...... 2155 .................... 4126 ............ 25.0 ........................ 3.222 ...... 7
400 (RNSN W'leigh). H-4895 ........... 59.0 (C) ...... 2182 .....................4230 ............ 25.0 ........................ 3.222 ...... 5
400 (RNSN W'leigh). H-4895 ........... 60.0 (C) ...... 2209 .....................4336 ............ 25.0 ........................ 3.222 ...... 2

NOTES:
F - Full case
C - Compressed powder charge
All loads used R-P 35 Whelen brass fire-formed to 2.470" length for loading, primed with Winchester WLR standard large rifle primer.

Some things I learned with the 25"-barreled 400 WB:

1. Increasing the charge of H-322 with the 300-gr TSX resulted in an increase of only 2 fps for each additional 0.5 grains of powder,
with slightly increased Standard Deviation (Sd) for 5 shots each charge:
60.5 gr >>> 2452 fps MV, Sd = 5 fps
61.0 gr >>> 2454 fps MV, Sd = 6 fps
61.5 gr >>> 2456 fps MV, Sd = 8 fps
There were no signs of excess pressure, but compressing another 1 grain of powder into the case did not help.
Maybe a WLRM (magnum) primer (or F-215) would make that last grain of powder burn better and help to raise pressures and velocities.
or maybe I need to try H-4198 with the WLR.
That might allow me to reach the goal of 2530 fps with 300-grainer, or it might allow me to get into pressure problems.


2. Increasing the charge of H-4895 with the 400-gr RNSN Woodleigh did improve things, and with no signs of pressure problems.
27 fps was added to MV with each 1-grain step-up of the powder charge: 58, 59, 60, as above, and Sd improved.
Got a winner with the H-4895 at 60.0 grains, a mildly compressed charge.


3. I don't see as well as I used to. Maybe a 16X scope is in order for accuracy testing when I get my loads picked for the 400 WB.


http://ammoguide.com/?catid=891

Great stuff, RIP. 450/400 ballistics in a lightweight bolt gun.

I was sceptical you'd get over 2100 fps with 400 gr bullets. Big congrats!

Kind of you, Whelenite, thanks.
The 400 Whelen Petrov will do almost as well.

Lessee, I have two loads that were shot in two different rifles,
my handloads were put together similarly, for comparison, same barrel maker and 1:14" twist:

400-gr/.411 Woodleigh RNSN with H4895 58.0 grains (full case), WLR, R-P brass:
400 Whelen Petrov --- 23.6" Shilen chrome-moly, 83 degrees F, 3.215" COL >>> 2128 fps corrected to MV, Sd for 10 shots = 5 fps.
400 Whelen Berry --- 25.0" Shilen stainless, 75 degrees F, 3.222" COL >>> 2155 fps corrected to MV, Sd for 5 shots = 5 fps:
Only 27 fps more for 1.4" longer barrel with slightly longer COL and slightly longer throat, and 8 degrees F cooler ambient.
More H4895 was needed (60.0 gr) to increase the 400 WB to 2209 fps.

The infinitesimals here:
Velocity might increase about 0.5 to 1.0 fps per degree F, even with the temperature-insensitive Hodgdon Extreme powders.
Longer COL will decrease pressure and velocity as long as there are no throat effects, but a tad more powder can make up for that.
Throat effects: that depends on the COL AND the bullet shape.
Barrel-length effect should be about 20 fps per inch.
Chrome-moly versus stainless steel effects???

300-gr/.411 TSX with H322 60.5 grains (mildly compressed), WLR, R-P brass:
400 Whelen Petrov --- 23.6" Shilen chrome-moly, 70 degrees F, 3.265" COL >>> 2437 fps corrected to MV, Sd for 10 shots = 7 fps.
400 Whelen Berry --- 25.0" Shilen stainless, 75 degrees F, 3.325" COL >>> 2452 fps corrected to MV, Sd for 5 shots = 5 fps:
Only 15 fps more for 1.4" longer barrel with slightly longer COL and slightly longer throat, and 5 degrees F warmer ambient.
That charge of H322 was maximum, compressed, no benefit from more powder, but it is a fast powder that burns well in a short barrel. Extra barrel length little benefit.

Not much difference.
Slightly better shoulder and 0.112" longer throat: That won't hurt anything for what I will be doing.
A custom bullet with higher BC to fit the new throat might be in order. Lemmee think about that ...

Here is something bizarre that happened when I was shooting the 400 Whelen Petrov with 400-grain Woodleigh RNSP.

One of the cartridges was a misfire.
Primer dented just fine, cartridge extracted and bullet was still in the neck, firmly gripped, crimped on the cannelure, or, in hindsight,
maybe the bullet moved just enough to flatten out the crimp and let the ogive of the Woodleigh 400-grainer barely touch the rifling lands,
but I did not notice that at the time.
I did not notice the sound being different either, my ears being muffed and plugged, and concentrating on the shot.
I thought it was a bad primer, WLR, or was it?

When I pulled the bullet, it took three good whacks with a kinetic bullet puller.
And there was no powder in the case!
Yes, only the second time in my life that I have accidently seated a bullet in a primed case with no powder!
The last time that happened 20 years ago, I got a 30-06 bullet stuck in my barrel.

The base of that .411-caliber Woodleigh was solid black with soot, smoked by the primer.

Maybe a magnum primer would at least make the bullet come out of the case without the help of powder? A 400-grainer does have a lot of inertia.

Rusty has found that WLRM magnum primers are needed for best results with the ball powders in the 400 Whelen.

My next loads for the 400 WB will use magnum primers for all powders. Either F215 or WLRM, one's about as hot as the other.
Even with H4198.
That will not reduce velocity or pressure, most likely.

I did it many, many years ago with a 308. Bullet made it about 5-6" down the barrel.

Mart

Great Bullet for the 400 Whelen: They got it close to 2600 fps from somebody's rifle. 2530 fps is my goal with a 300-grainer.

NORTH FORK .411-300 SS

Quick Overview
This bullet was originally designed for the 411 Hawk and Brown Whelen class of cartridge. It can be driven to nearly 2600 from a bolt gun and 2500 from a M95 Winchester 411 Hawk. It was designed to open at a lower velocity so that the Hawk cartridge would be usable out to 300 yds. This bullet is best used on deer, pigs, and animals on up to elk. It has the proper operating range for the 405 Winchester cartridge but the longer ogive may prove problematic in the M95. I do know that the OAL of the 405 cartridge would be too long if the case is crimped in the front groove, but I know of no reason that it needs to be crimped there. If it could be seated further into the case and crimped with a Lee die, it should work.

To experiment with 300-grain and 350-grain Barnes Bullets not requiring a custom order,
resize the .416 to .411 by a two-step sizing with CH4D dies?

Interesting to compare the .411-300gr TSX FB to
.416-300gr TSX FB and .416-350gr TTSX BT, top to bottom:





TSX .411/300: 1.257" long, BC = .281
TSX .416/300: 1.256" long, BC = .298 (sleeker, longer nose, shorter base)
TTSX .416/300: 1.603" long, BC = .444 (ballistic-tipped and boat-tailed, longer and heavier)

Rusty did a lot of work with the 350-grain loads, getting other .411-350-grain bullets over 2350 fps from a 23.6" barrel.
That was a Speer .416/350gr MagTip resized to .411, with 62.0 grains of AA-2230 (not compressed with that bullet)
giving 2359 fps at 5-yard chrono, 4326 ft-lbs KE.
Corrected to MV would be even higher.
Maybe 2400 fps in the 400 Whelen Berry 25" barrel, seated to fill the box magazine.

Another idea, resize the CEB .416/225gr Safari Raptor to .411".
The minor diameter between the bands is 0.394",
just a two-step size down to .411" on the bands.
Michael458's photo of the .416 bullets, off-the-shelf 225-grainer, experimental 180-grainer:


The ultimate all-purpose bullet for the 400 Whelen: Size this .416/300-grain Safari ESP Raptor down to .411-cal ...


Then there is the bite-the-bullet custom order for an "Extended Range Raptor" of .411-caliber, like this .375/235-grainer.
"For varmints and sech."


Copper Raptor .308 caliber needing fattening up to .411 caliber?

The 400 Whelen brass came back from Quality Cartridge today. It does not have the donut in the neck. All looks good. The proof will be in the forming, loading, and shooting. Even though it took longer than expected, Pete at Quality Cartridge did good by us.

Great.
"400 Whelen" headstamp will be nice, as well as full length brass on the initial firing.
Now if I can figure out a way to add a "B" for "400 Whelen B" headstamp.
The "B" team becomes the "A" team soon.

I have a dumb couple of questions for the masses:

What length and contour barrel do you recommend and why?

I have a 405 Ruger #1 and it's a pussycat to shoot. I am guessing I can expect more of the same?

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I have a dumb couple of questions for the masses:

Sir, no such thing as a dumb question, especially if it is one that allows a riflecrank a chance to expound.

What length and contour barrel do you recommend and why?

Rusty McGee is actually the culprit who put the 400 Whelen bee in my bonnet. He is a learned gunsmith and mechanical engineer,
but alas about as cranky about rifles as a riflecrank can be! The 400 Whelen first infected him, and then I caught the bug.
Made it easy for me since he did the preliminary legwork. Settled on the Shilen .411 barrel, 1:14" twist. I looked around and came to the same conclusion. That is the same barrel for .405 Winchester or 400 Whelen.
Nobody else made it to correct spec, not Krieger, not McGowen, not Pac-Nor, not Douglas, for various reasons.
When Rusty ordered the Shilen barrels, chrome-moly, they said they would make it no lighter than No. 5 sporter. OK.
Away we went.
That is a great contour, but heavier than necessary.
There are a lot of .416 factory rifles that use a No. 4 sporter. Even .458 Lott is done on a No. 4. Like the CZ 550 magnum which uses the same no. 4 equivalent on .375, .416, and .458.
When I later ordered the stainless Shilen .411-groove/1:14-Twist barrel, they mysteriously agreed to No. 4 sporter contour without batting a telephonic eyelash. Great.
Amazing as it may be,
both my 400 Whelens weigh 7 lbs. 14 oz. when the QD scope and rings are removed, unloaded weight:
A. 400 Whelen Petrov, Ruger Hawkeye, No. 5 sporter 23.6" barrel, walnut stock.
B. 400 Whelen Berry, Winchester M70 Classic Stainless, No. 4 sporter 25.0" barrel, synthetic (tupperware) stock.
The extra 1.4" of barrel made little difference in velocity, as above initial load testing showed.
Also made little difference in finished weight, since the plastic stock on the M70 is actually heavier than the slender walnut on the Hawkeye.
A McMillan Edge or a Brown Pounder would be a delightful lightener for the M70.
Your choice, as long as it is a Shilen: 23 to 25 inches, 24 inches is the usual length most use, No.4 or No.5 contour, cut or lengthen to heart's content.


INSERT PICTURES FOR SELF PLEASURE HERE:




I have a 405 Ruger #1 and it's a pussycat to shoot. I am guessing I can expect more of the same?

You will be pleasantly surprised how a 400 Welen can deliver 400-grainers at 450/400 NE ballistics in comfort for the rifle and you.
300-grainers are absolutely heavenly, with worthwhile improvement over 405 WCF M95 ballistics. 350-grainers are between pleasant and heavenly.
Sure you can hot up the Ruger No. 1 chambering in 405 WCF, even get it up to 400 Whelen levels.
I've got Ruger No.1's in 450/400NE and 405WCF, and a 405WCF M95, but the 400 Whelen beats any of them for riflecrank appeal.
I am thinking about having a 30-06 Winchester M95 rebarreled to 400 Whelen B. The .411 Hawk will eat the dust of the 400 Whelen B.
Barrel bands and express sights might be supplanted by barrel-mounted scout scope, laser and flashlight...

Sir,

Thank you very much for your response.

I just interviewed for a job in Kentucky last night, hopefully we got the job.

And hopefully all the Kentuckians and Transplanted Kentuckians are as nice as you.

thanks again!

.

Do you think a number 5 could be fluted?

BWW,
Fluting a No.5 contour .411-grooved barrel could be done only with some shallow, nonstandard sort of fluting, and that would produce very little advantage, if any, over just using a No.4.
It would probably just make the No.5 weaker than a No.4, without any significant weight saving or stiffness advantage. Some claim the only advantage of fluting is for cooling, by greater surface area.

Good fluting: .375-cal No.6 contour, if No.3 is considered minimum for that caliber. Dan Lilja will flute a no. 6 .375 barrel, but not one any slimmer in the .375 caliber.
His No. 6 fluted is about same weight as a No. 3 contour in .375 caliber.

Rule of thumb: Go 3 contours greater on the fluted barrel than what you consider the minimum contour for that caliber.
I would flute a No. 7 sporter contour .411 barrel, but not one any smaller.
Nice idea.

Good to know thanks again!

How many rounds does your Ruger and Winchester hold?

Both the Ruger and the Winchester hold 4 in box with that wide Whelen shoulder.
There is almost enough room for 5 down, can surf the 5th round off the top of the box with CRF,
bolt closing easily over 4 down + 1 in chamber.
They would hold 5 down in 30-06.

I wonder if there is bottom metal that would allow 6 in a M70 or Mauser.

http://www.swiftbullets.com/sw...gun-metal-s/1818.htm

Good idea.Swift is making the Blackburn bottom metal now,
and they list an "extra deep" for both Mauser M98 and Winchester M70 (Pre-64 and "New" ones).

Those might get 6 down in the box.
Just to get 5 down with the standard box would only take a shallow pocket plate of some sort .. will keep an eye peeled.
Also forgot to see if the follower spring has the hump in it or is a flat one, and whether the follower can be thinned.
Will look at that.

The M70 400 Whelen B with a McMillan Edge stock (or B&C Medalist with full bedding block) and Swift/Blackburn bottom metal:
If it hangs out the bottom of the stock, I can live with that "Kentucky-fried" look.

Saeed's .375/404 Jeffery:




Here is the Duane Wiebe 500 Jeffery bottom metal on my M98 Mauser in 500 Bateleur that Rusty McGee has, still needs a trigger in this photo from
"Hilltop Gun Shop and Spa for Wayward Rifles."
That is hanging out of a B&C Medalist Mauser stock:
Like a wayward girl showing her belly button:



White bread instead of cornbread?
Sunny Hill drop bottom metal that is of .375 H&H length and M70 sheetmetal box width, with the made-for-it McMillan-Sunny Hill stock:



It worked bigger for the 12.7x68 "49-10" so it might work smaller for the 400 Whelen?
Gunmakers make do all the time.

Duane Wiebe:

Mauser Bottommetal
Winchester Bottommetal
Enfield Bottommetal
CZ Bottommetal
Sako L 461

http://www.customgunandrifle.c...icle&id=22&Itemid=18

One-piece Winchester bottom metal:



Built like a bank vault:

http://www.customgunandrifle.c...icle&id=24&Itemid=34


Or separate pocket or Rigby style floorplate:

http://www.customgunandrifle.c...icle&id=28&Itemid=39




And the XRM box for M70 Classic:



http://www.customgunandrifle.c...icle&id=31&Itemid=41



Followers, including special for XRM box:



http://www.customgunandrifle.c...icle&id=27&Itemid=38

I read on the Wiebe website that he used a 30-06 drop box in conjunction with a Rigby coffin floor plate to hold 8-down in a 9.3x62 rifle for a guy in Australia. Maybe that'd be your best bet...

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I read on the Wiebe website that he used a 30-06 drop box in conjunction with a Rigby coffin floor plate to hold 8-down in a 9.3x62 rifle for a guy in Australia. Maybe that'd be your best bet...

Jim that is cool. This means Duane Wiebe can make anything the 400 Whelen Nut could wish for in bottom metal.

I have a couple of his XRM boxes to experiment with.
Block the back and reinforce the front and see if it will hold 5 or 6?
Will need the XRM follower and a RUM flat spring.
Might be easy, if the feed job is possible.
That XRM box is wide at the bottom and narrows at the top, IIRC, trapezoidal?

Might not want to block the back end, rather leave it .375 H&H length,
as I could use the extra length for Raptor-tipped bullets, and long-seated .416/350-grains Barnes TTSX resized to .411.

With full length brass (max 2.494") the jump from case mouth to 0.411" diameter point in leade of the 400 Whelen B is 0.347" long, IIRC.



The current 400 Whelen B is already made on a .375 H&H length action.
Maybe it just needs a one-piece bottom metal from Duane Wiebe, of proper specs for 400 Whelen width and .375 H&H length.

Yep leave it .375 H&H length for tipped Raptors and TTSX bullets.
I think the XRM box just might work nicely with the Whelen. Rusty might need to fiddle with the box a bit - could need a couple of simple critical weld lines inside to push the cartridges into correct alignment for feeding - but perhaps not...

I'm using the Wiebe 404 Jeffery box in my 12.7x68/49-10. It has the same trapezoidal shape as the XRM box though mine is the one piece Mauser bottom metal. Works great (at least I'm told so), 3-down with room the the 4th to be thumb fed into the box so it's properly slips up under the extractor.

In the midst of paying for a move, then I'll order 3 barrels.

Here is Duane Wiebe's XRM box, on the left, compared to the original 270 WCF box that Rusty reinforced at front. The feed lips on the top of both may be bent inward or outward to adjust feeding.
You can also see that the original 270 WCF magazine spring is a flat one, with no space-wasting hump:



XRM on top below:



The 270 WCF magazine with 5 of the 400 Whelen dummies pressed down into it with follower and spring in place, the 5th cartridge sticks up too far to close the bolt over it:



The XRM box with 6 dummies pressed down into it, the bolt will close over 5, not 6 cartridges, and 3.6" COL:



Some more views of the XRM box. Duane Wiebe welds his at the right rear corner, instead of in the middle of the rear wall as with Winchester original box:



The front of the XRM box has a little round hole in it, must be used to fixture it for the cutting, bending and welding,
not supposed to be a problem, but it sure would fill in nicely with solder when Rusty reinforces the front.
I betcha he could make it work for 5 down, on the 400 Whelen B.
If we are going to get 8 down in the box it might require some different parts, from Duane Wiebe, since he has done it before.



Two of the XRM boxes side-by-side for further illustration of bends and tapers:

This project is coming together for me.

The CZ550 already holds 5 9.3x62 rounds, so I might use one of those in 270.

And that is the CZ 550 Medium, not the CZ 550 Magnum action.
Hey! I will get out my CZ 9.3x62 550 Medium FS and see if it will hold 5 of the 400 Whelen dummies ...

Ooops. Gonna have to pee on my CZ cornflakes. I can squeeze 5 down in the box and make it retain 5 cartridges,
but I cannot close my bolt on 5 down in the box.
Feeds 5th cartridge off the top just fine, on closing the bolt.
Still just a 5 shooter like the Ruger Hawkeye and Winchester M70 Classic.

But those are my cornflakes.
Some CZ 550 Magnums will hold 3 of the .416 Rigby and some will hold 4 in the box, but that may be because some use the .375 H&H (ribbed) box, and some use the .458WM (non-ribbed) box,
or some variability of the fitting and tightness of fit of the parts on the factory rifles before they are tuned up.

I am going to order the XRM follower to go with the XRM box.
Might make it better.

Have you considered the Ruger pocket plate that was made? Perhaps ask KCScott if he will make you a one off or give the plans or cnc code to Rusty? http://www.klstottlemyer.com/k...lemyer.com/HOME.html
http://forums.accuratereloadin...261019371#7261019371

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Have you considered the Ruger pocket plate that was made? Perhaps ask KCScott if he will make you a one off or give the plans or cnc code to Rusty? http://www.klstottlemyer.com/k...lemyer.com/HOME.html
http://forums.accuratereloadin...261019371#7261019371

Stottlemeyer:

posted 04-11-2012 9:43 PM:
"No pre-orders. And I don't plan on making any more in aluminum."


7/14/2013
"UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE NO NEW WORK WILL BE ACCEPTED.
I CURRENTLY HAVE ENOUGH WORK THAT I CAN’T GIVE AN HONEST ANSWER AS TO WHEN THE CURRENT PROJECTS WILL BE FINISHED.
I’D RATHER STOP TAKING IN NEW WORK THEN NOT MEET DEADLINES."

CNC code would be of no use at Hilltop Gun Shop.
Bastard File Rifle Werkes it ain't, but no CNC.
If I wanted to pay Rusty for the hours of machining one of those boxes of his own design, or anyone else's ...

There is no urgency to this, a 5-shooter 400 Whelen is OK.
But if I could get the Stottlemeyer coffin plate for a Ruger Hawkeye ...



That's probably going to make the Ruger weigh just a tad over 8 pounds.

Seriously all these great ideas are going to have to stop.

Thanks again, now I need 4 barrels might as well have a Ruger too, and I could use this bottom metal on a Ruger for the 9.3x64 rifles.

Is the 9,3x62 floor plate/follower/mag box different than say an 06 version? I guess the 9,3x62 makes a good 400 Whelen donor gun.

I don't think it does, as you are killing a 9.3x62.

If it was a 270 then kill away, for every 9.3x62 you rebarrel St Hubertus sheds a tear.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is the 9,3x62 floor plate/follower/mag box different than say an 06 version? I guess the 9,3x62 makes a good 400 Whelen donor gun.