Heck yeah Mart, sounds like you have laid about a ton of meat in the coolers with your 400, Congrats, and yessir, the 400 grain bullets are the only way I'd fly with that cartridge.

They're accurate, and penetrate like crazy.

OH BTW, I must apologize for the panting and chest hair in the video, it was 40 deg celsius and we just sprinted the 140 yards over where the bull was hit, that bank in the background was Botswana, we couldn't have him leaving the country on us!

The 400 grain Woodleigh was the first to take any game for me. The caribou was 250 yards out, quartered to and the bullet entered just in front of the right shoulder and exited just behind the left shoulder. That bull looked for all the world like somebody jerked the tundra out from under him. The cow moose was with a 400 grain Hawk and planted nose first in the dirt with a spine shot. In both cases there were 1 1/2 inch exit wounds with almost no bloodshot.

The caribou last year was with a 300 grain Barnes TSX at 200 yards. The bullet performed perfectly, penetrating from the second to the last rib on the right side to the point of the shoulder on the left side. The exit was close to three inches and extremely bloodshot on both the entrance and exit, something I've come to expect from X bullets no matter the caliber.

I am going to try some 350 grain Hawks, so I can say I did try some 350's, but will most likely go back to my trusty 400 grain bullets.

10-4 sounds good Mart, that Kudu was the only animal that didn't drop at the shot, the Gemsbok, Impala, Steenbok,and Duiker died where they stood with complete penetration.

I love the 400 Whelen, I call it the little 400 that can because so many Buds told me what I could NOT do with the cartridge, they have had no further questions or comments as of late ;]

quote:

I am going to try some 350 grain Hawks, so I can say I did try some 350's

Be interesting to see your opinion. I found them a touch soft in my 400. But I can't remember off the top of my head which of the 2 jackets I used.

Years before I built my 400PDK I built a 416PDK. I never warmed to it and loaned it to a friend on his move to Alaska. No telling how many game animals he took with it. I know of at least 2 brown bears probably 20+ Caribou and a couple of Moose. He settled on a load using the 340gr Woodleigh and never looked back. He has since retired to just north of Houston. Will probably be over kill for hill country deer. There is always hogs.

Finished a barrel length vs velocity test today with a Shilen stainless, eight narrow lands, 1-14 twist. I haven't measured the groove diameter but the bore was .4032" measured with a .4030" reamer pilot being the closest slip fit.

(As an aside, the CM Shilen .411 that I had was made with six large lands so they either got a new button or use a different one for stainless).

All loads were assembled in LC67 Match 30-06 brass, necked up, lengthened in a lathe via the "nib & spin" method

http://www.texas-mac.com/Stret...ur_BPCR_Chamber.html

and primed with CCI200 primers and loaded with home swaged jacketed bullets of .4115" diameter except "Load 1".

Load 1 consisted of same cases and primers but a LFN style 340gr gas checked cast bullet and 18grains of 800X.

Load 2 consisted of 60gr H322 and a 300grain bullet

Load 3 consisted of 60gr IMR8208 and a 350grain bullet

Load 4 consisted of 55gr H4895 and a 400grain bullet

First column is barrel length in inches, second through fifth is velocity in FPS per length for each load, sixth through ninth is individual velocity loss, and column ten and bottom partial row are averages of either the row to the left of column ten or the column above the partial row.

The overall velocity loss is 15.7fps per inch. This would be even lower (11.5) except the velocity loss going from 27" to 26" represents two different days of chronographing and different lighting and setup most likely contributed to the greater measured losses.

 1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Length	Load 1	Load 2	Load 3	Load 4	Loss 1	Loss 2	Loss 3	Loss 4	
27.0		2452.7	2274.0	2086.0					
26.0	1437.0	2431.3	2205.0	2046.0		21.4	69.0	40.0	43.5
25.0	1408.3	2419.3	2177.0	2028.0	28.7	12.0	28.0	18.0	21.7
24.0	1404.3	2390.7	2178.0	2036.7	4.0	28.6	-1.0	-8.7	5.7
23.0	1394.7	2390.0	2189.3	2027.7	9.6	0.7	-11.3	9.0	2.0
22.0	1391.3	2384.3	2169.0	2017.0	3.4	5.7	20.3	10.7	10.0
21.0	1382.9	2358.8	2153.5	1993.5	8.4	25.5	15.5	23.5	18.2
					10.8	14.5	10.3	10.5	15.7 

Thank You PWS ! A lot of information here.

the Hawks will separate most of the time..so drive them very slow..they are nothing more than a cup and core made from soft lead and soft copper, sounds good in print but doesn't work in the field..Used them one year in Africa on an extended visit, shot lots of game withthem. Never again..

The are great in the older Win. rifles and calibers like the 45-70..but not in my .338 or 7x57 even with the thickest of jackets, they need to be bonded. I suggested that but the suggestion fell on deaf ears.

Good God, how could there be 26 pages of comments over several years about such an obscure cartridge?

Tell em again Ray ! Tell em everyone on AR wants them to bond their cores. . I've still got some Hawk bullets for a 416. I wanted to try them out . so I tried them out. Haven't got anymore since.

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:
Good God, how could there be 26 pages of comments over several years about such an obscure cartridge?

Because owning, shooting and hunting with a 400 Whelen elevates one to the status of the shooting fraternity's version of the most interesting man in the world.

Women find us more attractive, our buddy's dogs hunt better for us than their owners, and other hunters speak our names in reverent tones. Poems are written and songs are sung about the likes of us and our exploits.

That's why the topic of the 400 Whelen can go on for 26 pages and will like go another 26.

Mart, you are making Colonel Whelen blush!

I supply 300 grn Hawk bullets for my Namibian pals .338 win. He has, for years used them to shoot eland, kudu, hartebeast and gemsbok. He culls and buys the animals to fill the prison meat order in his district. He has nothing but praise for the bullets for his use. He doesn't push them real fast, and takes lung shots to save meat. He said they work better then anything he has available.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Mart, you are making Colonel Whelen blush!

Bill,

I'd say, looking at the good Colonel's resume, in the shooting fraternity, he qualifies as one of the most interesting men in the world.

Mart

Which jacket thickness ?

quote:

I supply 300 grn Hawk bullets for my Namibian pals .338 win. He has, for years used them to shoot eland, kudu, hartebeast and gemsbok.

Hey if it works for him what difference does what we have to say make??

Looking up my data I was using the 300s not the 350s. Looks like they were the .035 jacket from my notes I no longer have the box from my rifle they were at 2650fps. On a couple large hogs they looked like a 300gr varmint bullet. HUGE entry wound. Yes the hogs died but not pretty.

As stated the Hawk is a basic cup and core. We used that style for years before the bonded bullet hit the scene. Again if they work for your needs don't listen to us.

Yes .035 jackets. I would guess no more then 2300 fps, he never pushes his loads on any of his rifles. I asked if they stayed together or not. He said sometimes he would find a bullet jacket on an eland left behind. His take was, they died quick, what difference does it make if they stayed together or not. As he has shot more big game than any 10 of us here could think of, I couldn't argue with him.

The eternal and ONLY question that matters. At what point in the sudden death of that animal did the bullet fail????

I will say this with simple cup and core bullets the 400 Whelen is devastating on plains game.

If any one is really convinced the Hawks don't work I will, out of the goodness of my heart, let you pay for my trip to Africa to do a lowly cull hunt with Hawk bullets and I will send you a report on how they work

Now don't be shy step right up.

Ray, did you try the 65k" jacketed Hawk bullets ? Seems they have 25, 30,35+50 thousandth jacketed bullets.

Unless you shoot animals up the ass on a reg basis, my opinion only, is the heavyer jackets might act like solids at times.
When I was growing up, shooting an unwounded animal in the ass just wasn't done. It wasted meat and was considered disrespectful to the animal. So on that note, everything I comment on take that into account.
At the vel a 400 whelen produces, a .035 should work great. I used a lot of Barnes originals in 7x57 and 350 rem mag, and thought they gave wonderful performance.

quote:

At the vel a 400 whelen produces, a .035 should work great.

A 400gr with the .035 at 2100fps range might be fine. A 300gr .035 from my 400PDK at 2650fps in the side of a 200# hog exploded on impact. More than once. They might work better at lower velocity but in my rifle my velocity I call the 300s failures. A whelen can probably do 2500-2575.

I will not use the 300s in my rifle period. To each his own.

I should have said the 400 grn, or the 300 if the vel are down in the 21-2300 fps range.

quote:

I should have said the 400 grn, or the 300 if the vel are down in the 21-2300 fps range.

I think there is evidence the 400s work. Someone just needs to test the 300s at lower velocity. You look at the Hawk site and they talk 405 Win as the .411s. So that is more like 2200 with a 300gr. Now maybe with a .05 jacket like some of the 416.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Yes, many fresh thoughts on the 400 Whelen.

Had a 98 Mauser custom build done a couple years ago.

Petrov Reamer
23" Krieger barrel
Quality cartridge cylindrical brass
400 gr Woodleigh softs and solids at 2255 fps with CFE-223 powder.

A wonderfully accurate mid-bore rifle you can hunt the world with, along with it's mild recoil, it and the 9.3x62mm will be two rifles I'll hunt with till I'm too old to walk and carry a hunting weapon.

Mine wears a 1.5-5 Leupold in Sunny Hill QD rings.

What groove diameter and rifleing twist is your Krieger barrel? Thanks

The 175 grn 7mm and the 250 grn 35's I used, ran around 2500 fps. Smaller nose diameter I think kept them from over expanding at those vel. Hawk puts a goodly amount of lead showing on most of their big bore bullets.

Been running up load ladders and here are the results. Barrel is a stainless Shilen and I swaged all the bullets using F-C 10mm Auto brass for the jackets of the 300grain bullets and .223Rem brass for the 350s and 400s. All loads were primed with CCI200s and loaded in necked up LC67Match '06 brass.

I CANNOT RECOMMEND THE TOP LOADS - APPROACH WITH CAUTION!!!!

2400fps with the 300s, 2300fps with the 350s and 2100fps with the 400s are prudent maximums in my 21" barrel.

BARREL	BULLET GRAINS	CHARGE GRAINS	POWDER TYPE	VELOCITY AVG.
21"	300	56	Benchmark	2185.5
21"	300	57	Benchmark	2227
21"	300	58	Benchmark	2268.5
21"	300	59	Benchmark	2280.5
21"	300	60	Benchmark	2326
21"	300	61	Benchmark	2358
21"	300	62	Benchmark	2380.5
21"	300	63	Benchmark	2457.5
21"	300	64	Benchmark	2446
26"	300	54	H322	2280.7
26"	300	55	H322	2318
26"	300	56	H322	2383
26"	300	57	H322	2423.3
21"	300	58	H322	2318.5
26"	300	58	H322	2462
21"	300	59	H322	2374.5
26"	300	59	H322	2493.7
21"	300	60	H322	2398
21"	300	61	H322	2446.5
21"	300	62	H322	2494
21"	300	63	H322	2527
21"	300	59	H4895	2241
21"	300	60	H4895	2240
21"	300	61	H4895	2294
21"	300	62	H4895	2328.5
21"	300	63	H4895	2385
21"	300	64	H4895	2376.5
21"	300	65	H4895	2437
21"	300	66	H4895	2471
21"	300	67	H4895	2505.5
21"	300	68	H4895	2569
21"	300	58	IMR4895	2121
21"	300	59	IMR4895	2173
21"	300	60	IMR4895	2230
21"	300	61	IMR4895	2242
21"	300	62	IMR4895	2290.5
21"	300	63	IMR4895	2292.5
21"	300	64	IMR4895	2345
21"	300	65	IMR4895	2365.5
21"	300	66	IMR4895	2397.5
21"	300	67	IMR4895	2430.5
21"	300	68	IMR4895	2457.5
21"	300	58	IMR8208	2183
21"	300	59	IMR8208	2235.5
21"	300	60	IMR8208	2271.5
21"	300	61	IMR8208	2308
21"	300	62	IMR8208	2347.5
21"	300	63	IMR8208	2399.5
21"	300	64	IMR8208	2441.5
21"	300	65	IMR8208	2482.5
21"	300	66	IMR8208	2464
21"	300	67	IMR8208	2480
21"	350	52	H322	2239.7
21"	350	56	H4895	2127
21"	350	57	H4895	2159
21"	350	58	H4895	2209
21"	350	59	H4895	2228
21"	350	60	H4895	2281
21"	350	61	H4895	2281
21"	350	62	H4895	2302
21"	350	62	H4895	2310
21"	350	63	H4895	2336.5
21"	350	64	H4895	2404
21"	350	55	IMR4895	2025
21"	350	56	IMR4895	2045
21"	350	57	IMR4895	2102
21"	350	58	IMR4895	2144
21"	350	59	IMR4895	2152
21"	350	60	IMR4895	2209
21"	350	61	IMR4895	2198
21"	350	62	IMR4895	2261.5
21"	350	62	IMR4895	2244.5
21"	350	63	IMR4895	2282
21"	350	64	IMR4895	2365.5
26"	350	56	IMR8208	2226.3
26"	350	57	IMR8208	2260.3
26"	350	58	IMR8208	2266
26"	350	59	IMR8208	2275
26"	350	60	IMR8208	2315
26"	350	61	IMR8208	2277
26"	350	62	IMR8208	2286.5
21"	350	62	IMR8208	2322
21"	350	63	IMR8208	2345
21"	350	64	IMR8208	2423.5
26"	400	50	Benchmark	1868.5
26"	400	51	Benchmark	1911.5
26"	400	52	Benchmark	1939
26"	400	53	Benchmark	1967.5
26"	400	54	Benchmark	2029
21"	400	55	Benchmark	2060
21"	400	56	Benchmark	2084.5
21"	400	57	Benchmark	2122.5
26"	400	52	H4895	2090
26"	400	53	H4895	2117.7
26"	400	54	H4895	2130.7
26"	400	55	H4895	2141.7
26"	400	56	H4895	2127
21"	400	57	H4895	2065
21"	400	58	H4895	2092.5
21"	400	59	H4895	2148.5
26"	400	52	IMR4895	1855.5
26"	400	53	IMR4895	1868.5
26"	400	54	IMR4895	1916.5
26"	400	55	IMR4895	1942
26"	400	56	IMR4895	1976.5
21"	400	57	IMR4895	2012.5
21"	400	58	IMR4895	2032
21"	400	59	IMR4895	2111
26"	400	52	IMR8208	1854
26"	400	53	IMR8208	1929
26"	400	54	IMR8208	1988.5
26"	400	55	IMR8208	2006.5
26"	400	56	IMR8208	2049.5
21"	400	57	IMR8208	2089.5
21"	400	58	IMR8208	2111
21"	400	59	IMR8208	2166
  

PWS please show pictures of your bullets, thanks for sharing all that info.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
What groove diameter and rifleing twist is your Krieger barrel? Thanks

Matt,

Until Jerry gets back for historical correctness ...

https://www.kriegerbarrels.com/caliber#searchcal

Check the nominal "405 Winchester" barrel at Krieger.

Currently they offer two different bore diameters as standard: 0.403" and 0.405"
Along with that comes one standard groove diameter: 0.411", 6-groove
One standard twist: 1:14"
One steel: Chrome Moly, minimum contour #4

PWS,

Ditto the thanks for the load data, and the comment about pictures of your homemade bullets being of interest.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

PWS: 8208 looks hard to beat with your 350-grain bullet. How was the accuracy?

Yes, thank you for posting the data . Thats a lot of work. I see you beat 2500 fps with the 300 gr bullet with the 21" barrel . and you got to 2150 fps with the 400 gr bullet with the 21"

26 pages on the 400 Whelen...who'd a thunk it??

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
26 pages on the 400 Whelen...who'd a thunk it??

I cannot top Mart's description of the attributes of 400 Whelen shooters,
but I will add that if you shoot a 400 Whelen regularly, your flatus soon smells like Old Spice after-shave,
and you might become the next TV commercial endorser of Dos Equis beer.

I did eventually get the Wiebe XRM box installed in my M70 400 Whelen.
It is a 5 + 1 sixshooter for C.O.L. 3.6" with the 400 Whelen,
and it started off as a 270 WCF M70 Classic Stainless Featherweight from Connecticut.
That same slim tupperware stock just required a little scraping with files and chisels in the magazine well to fit the trapezoidal box:





One in the chamber and five in the box, a lot of firepower from a "featherweight":








THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

I read with interest the discussions on a 40 caliber easy-carrying rifle. Sometimes I even think that the 400 Whelen-Berry would make a nice old-folks rifle for a place like TZ in one's seventies (not there yet). Put my name on a drawing list when you want to give one away.

However, whenever I wistfully think of carrying such a rifle, I am struck by practicalities and another rifle pops into view:
the 416Ruger.
While the Ruger will not allow 5 or 6 to be loaded into the rifle at one time, I am not vitally interested in magazine capacity beyond a third round. Three is the maximum that can be used in an emergency, single-animal encounter. (Elephant culling might be an exception that could justify the expense of a multi-round wildcat.)

Anyway, the 416 Ruger is available in some nice Safari and Alaskan packages.
It is lighter than my CZ 416 Rigbys.
It basically gives up 200fps to a full-capacity-loaded Rigby, but that still equals the factory-loaded Rigby spec. I could do a lot of hunting with a 2550-2600fps 350grain TTSX in the Ruger. Should I ever get the notion to go lighter on recoil than the factory-level Ruger loads, I could load a 416 Ruger down to the 2300fps+350gn that is listed above. That might drop the rifle to a 250-yard platform, but that covers 90-95% of my shots in Africa and it could be made into 100% if circumstances required.

So I wish you sunny skies on your parade, while Lady and I will remain with factory rifles in comparable calibers (375Ruger, maybe someday a 416Ruger). Meanwhile, I still like the 500 AR-Nyati on a Ruger platform, my one foray into what I would call 'necessary wildcat' country.

For those who would like to know, Jerry McDonald told me his Mauser rifle wares a 23" long, .409" groove, 1-16" twist Krieger Chrome-Molley barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
For those who would like to know, Jerry McDonald told me his Mauser rifle wares a 23" long, .409" groove, 1-16" twist Krieger Chrome-Molley barrel.

Well, that is nice, back to the original groove/bullet spec of the 400 Whelen of 1923: .409-caliber

The nominal "40-82, 40-70, or 40 CAL" barrels at Krieger could be used, same barrel specs for all three "CALIBER" listings:

40-82:
STD Bore Dia(s):
0.3990 , 0.4000
STD Groove Dia(s):
0.4060 , 0.4070 , 0.4080 , 0.4090
Number of Grooves:
6
STD Twist Rate(s):
1-16 , 1-18
Steel (Minimum Contour):
Chrome Moly (#4)
Price:
$365.00

40-70:
STD Bore Dia(s):
0.3990 , 0.4000
STD Groove Dia(s):
0.4060 , 0.4070 , 0.4080 , 0.4090
Number of Grooves:
6
STD Twist Rate(s):
1-16 , 1-18
Steel (Minimum Contour):
Chrome Moly (#4)
Price:
$365.00

40 CAL:
STD Bore Dia(s):
0.3990 , 0.4000
STD Groove Dia(s):
0.4060 , 0.4070 , 0.4080 , 0.4090
Number of Grooves:
6
STD Twist Rate(s):
1-16 , 1-18
Steel (Minimum Contour):
Chrome Moly (#4)
Price:
$365.00


Once again, available in chrome moly only from Krieger, like the "405" Krieger barrel referenced above and here:

405 WINCHESTER:
STD Bore Dia(s):
0.4030 , 0.4050
STD Groove Dia(s):
0.411
Number of Grooves:
6
STD Twist Rate(s):
1-14
Steel (Minimum Contour):
Chrome Moly (#4)
Price:
$365.00


Those ".409-caliber" barrels have slower twist rates, obviously meant for the BPCR chamberings primarily.
Stainless and faster twist would be poor etiquette on some rifles, eh?

A Shilen barrel (.404-bore/.411-groove, 1:14" twist) may seem rude (not crude) in some applications,
but can be had in stainless steel as light as #4 sporter.

The type of stainless steel that Krieger uses is not strong enough to go as light in contour as the chrome moly barrels,
but must be more desirable for a smoother finish or easier job with the cut-rifling technique.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
PWS please show pictures of your bullets, thanks for sharing all that info.

My pleasure guys, I didn't discover anything new - H4895 is still a hummer. IMR8208 is pretty close in performance, maybe a little quicker burning than H4895. IMR4895 was on the slow side of velocities but gave good accuracy. Benchmark worked well too, just a little quick burning for top speeds. I wouldn't feel left out if that's all that was available though.

I must emphasize that the top loads are to be approached with caution. I went up until the speed was there and have every impression the top loads are HOT! I didn't lose any cases and only had one primer pocket loosen right away but, BUT! another 50-75ps isn't worth regular use.

Accuracy with my scrounger bullets hovers around 2.5moa at 100 yards with most of the loads. The 300s might be the most accurate but that's probably because the bullet components were the most consistent.

If I had to do it over again, 23" is probably a better barrel length than 21. Velocities really didn't start to drop until 22-21 so the extra few inches would have been "free" energy.

Here's a pic of the three bullets. The 350s in the picture were made with .308 brass. The recovered slugs were fired into water at ten feet. The 400s penetrated ~24", the 350s ~36", and the 300s 12-16" at the most. The 300s would be pretty violent on game. The big difference in the 350s and 400s is in the much heavier jacket between the 223 clad 400s and the 308 clad 350s.

Here's more info on "scrounger swaging": http://forums.accuratereloadin...141064232#5141064232

Just thought I would mention that there is a new .400 Petrov Whelen or two being hatched in a talented gunsmith's shop in Davenport, Iowa. Gestation period soon to be over ...

Hey, just saw this for the 400 Whelen guys.

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100882919

All that, and I have new Oberndorf pattern .40 cal barrels in inventory. Douglas chrome moly premium blanks. .410 groove diameter. 1-14 twist.