My posting under "The 411 Hawk" should apply here too:

Check out the 10.4x62 : www.impalabullets.at/content/104x62Impala_en.htm

Cases and components readily available.

Vasa

Guys ; I'm going into withdrawals here. The warm weather, low fuel price and contractual issues have kept me off The Slope so far and for another couple weeks . Can't do anything till then.

Well, went through a few changes of plan but did manage to put together a .400Whelen. Been playing with loads and here's what I've come up with so far with 300grain Hornady Spire Points.

All loads were fired in a 26" Shilen Cro-Moly barrel chambered with a PTG ground .400Whelen-Petrov reamer. They're assembled in R-P .30-06 brass expanded (have a ton on hand), sparked with CCI200 primers and loaded to 3.200" OAL.


Each is one-shot ladder:

Grains Powder Velocity
53 Benchmark 2081
54 Benchmark 2127
55 Benchmark 2148
56 Benchmark 2256
57 Benchmark
58 Benchmark 2347
59 Benchmark 2373
54 H322 2188
55 H322 2246
56 H322 2401
57 H322 2353
58 H322 2395.5
58 H322 2442
59 H322 2447
50 H4198 2261
51 H4198 2296
52 H4198 2347
53 H4198 2395
54 H4198 2346
55 H4198 2419
56 H4895 2201
57 H4895 2212
58 H4895 2255
59 H4895 2328
60 H4895 2345.5
60 H4895 2361
61 H4895 2423
62 H4895 2427
54 IMR4320 2012
55 IMR4320 2035
56 IMR4320 2053
57 IMR4320 2126
58 IMR4320 2175
59 IMR4320 2240
60 IMR4320 2310
61 IMR4320 2297
54 IMR8208 2137
55 IMR8208 2214
56 IMR8208 2185
57 IMR8208 2320
58 IMR8208 2298
58 IMR8208 2350
59 IMR8208 2331
60 IMR8208 2421
61 IMR8208 2408

PWS ; what action did u use? Are u going to stay with the long barrel or will you cut it shorter after you have done load development.

Not trying to cut in on PWS's thunder but I saw on an earlier post that he purchased a 1903 Springfield.

Ok. Thanks. It seems the 400 Whelan has a tough time getting 300 gr bullets above 2500 but breezes the 400 gr right up to 2150 even.2200 fps. Where as 416 Taylor even with a 19" barrel can push a 300 to almost 2700 fps. But struggles to get a 400 gr above 2300 fps. I wonder why that is? Even the 416 Ruger doesn't scream past 2400 fps where as the 416 Remington can get 2500 often with a 400 gr bullet. Tho that is with my and friends rifles and not precisely pressure tested. The results are from several rifles. .
However, 2150 fps with a 400 gr bullet is just fine for my use.

Problem is on the Taylor going from 300gr to 400gr you are losing 11-12% of your net capacity.

The various Whelan numbers above often have the 400s seated out further. Some as long a 3.5 vs 3.35 for the 300s. They are seeing almost no loss in net capacity. Thus their ratios of velocities wont match the Taylor. Seat the heavy bullets that long on the Taylor and they would probably match in ratio.

I shoot my 400PDK. 87grs of capacity at 2.65" case. Loaded in the cannelure I have no issue getting a 300 to 2700 and the 400s to 2300+. My accurate load is 2675 and 2256.

That apple and orange comparison could be messing things up. If a 400gr at 2100fps doesn't do it then boy you have a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
PWS ; what action did u use? Are u going to stay with the long barrel or will you cut it shorter after you have done load development.

CTF,

I ended up building it on a Model 70. The Springfield mag box and feed rails are (at my skill level) much more of a one way road when it comes to modification. I didn't want to wreck the action so stopped opening the rails while it still feeds '06s and .35W's fine. The Springfield will feed spire points fine but it didn't take much time with the 70 for me to think I could get it to feed flat points too.

With the 70, as long as you don't monkey with the receiver itself, any goofup in the mag box is a $25 fix with a new box. By cutting windows in the box, some judicious bending, making the rear of the follower narrower and a slightly deeper bedding of the bottom metal, I'm almost to the point of a sure 5+1. Feeds the spire points fine but not quite there with flat points.

I'm being cautious with the max loads anyway and feel that 2500 could be done with the 300s but with the unknowns, do not feel it's worth the increase. Ramrod340 correctly points out that there's a lot of room outside of the case for more bullet so the stubby 300grainers at 3.200"OAL aren't maxing the system. I've already cut two inches off the barrel yesterday and have some more loads assembled for the next nice day. It's a #5 Shilen so it's medium-heavy and will probably be best down around 22". Figured on playing with the longer tube for starters and cutting it back as I go.

Made a mold for a 330grain flat point cast bullet and got it up to 2400 with the same powders and case head expansions (in the same brass). Accuracy isn't there yet but that may be due to gascheck woes. I cut the check shank to .393" according to some specs I found on line but the Gator .416s I have are .388"ID and .424"OD. An expander punch will get them on the bullets and a .412" press die gets them through the lubesizer much easier but they're not staying on and recovered bullets are showing quite a bit of distortion under the check. Gonna have to make another mold or a check maker...

The 300gr Hornady Spire Points are grouping nicely though. The last short test I did with six different powders grouped into 1" at 50yards.

Any new chrono data?

Why in fact... just got started with the 300gr Barnes TSX today (finally quit friggin' raining for a day)

NOTE: This data is after shortening the barrel two inches to 24". Speeds continued to increase despite the shorter barrel.

Loaded in Military brass headstamped "U 43", CCI200 primers, 3.260" OAL (~.05" off lands). The ladder of IMR8208 and H4895 shot into less than 1 1/2" at 100 yards. Not bad for five and four shot groups with varying powder charges!

54 Benchmark 2117
55 Benchmark 2192
56 Benchmark 2257
57 Benchmark 2275
58 Benchmark 2337
53 H322 2188
54 H322 2228
55 H322 2306
56 H322 2307
57 H322 2377
57 H4895 2228
58 H4895 2260
59 H4895 2313
60 H4895 2333
56 IMR8208 2176
57 IMR8208 2231
58 IMR8208 2281
59 IMR8208 2352
60 IMR8208 2370

In the meantime, I pushed the Hornady 300gr Spire Point up to where I thought was the very top limit. Loaded in R-P '06 brass, CCI200, 3.200" OAL, also in a 24" barrel

60 Benchmark 2460
56 H4198 2453
63 H4895 2447
64 H4895 2514
62 IMR4320 2360
63 IMR4320 2388
64 IMR4320 2398
62 IMR8208 2438

I haven't found anything new regarding the stellar performance of H4895. It's fast, mild and accurate. IMR8208 seems to be a pretty good replacement, acts a little quicker and maybe a little less accurate but the difference is slight. H322 and Benchmark have been both good and poor in terms of velocity produced per pressure signs and accuracy. IMR4320 is just too slow but is working well with a cast 330gr flat nose up to 2150fps. H4198 is a pleasure to shoot, not much muzzle blast and it seems to recoil less but is a bit quick burning for top velocities. It's turning out good groups however.

If you're looking for the fast track to a good load, try the Barnes TSX .05" off the lands over ~60gr of H4895.

I was bumped over here courtesy of Cold Trigger Finger who suggested I look at the .400 Whelen as a mild recoiling dangerous game rifle.

I've hand loaded commercial cartridges for commercial rifles my whole life, so the idea of working with a cartridge like the .400 Whelen is new to me. Brass, powder, primers, bullets are easy enough to come by, but where does one purchase the dies, and how much do they cost?

Two, I would need a rifle rebarreled and any associated work with the action in order to make it feed properly. These are skills I totally lack, so this would all have to be done by a competent gunsmith. How much would something like this cost? I've got an old Dickson Howa Golden Bear in .30-06 that could be converted, but not knowing costs, I don't know if that would be worth it.

All good questions, the lads should be along soon. There are smiths set up for the 400 Whelan and CH4D makes dies. I think someone else does also. Tho the 21 pages of this thread is a Read for sure. It contains Tons of information !! .
I was just on the Quality Cartridges web site looking at 400 Whelan brass myself. . One if the members of AR, "Rough One " has built some of them as have several other smiths. It seems Shilen is at the top as far as barrels for the 400 Whelan. They have the land and groove dimensions just right it seems.

quote:

I haven't found anything new regarding the stellar performance of H4895

I actually use IMR 4895 in my 400PDK. It seemed to give just a touch more velocity than H4895. RL 15 gave me my best accuracy and my 400gr hunting load is a nice easy 2250 using RL15. I also had good velocity with Varget but it didn't group as well as the other 2 in my rifle.

If I had only 1 it would be RL15 but if I could only find 4895 that would be fine as well.

Never tried 4198 that I can remember.

Ramrod340, those are three more powders I'd like to try but the choices available here in Kodiak can be rather strange. In ten years, I've only seen four pounds of Unique and some of the "common" stuff never.

There's some screwball deal with shipping in that the HazMat charges are in multiples of 100lbs so the shops here place an order and if the supplier can't mix and match what's requested to end up with an even 100, they don't ship. We'll get a flood of something like CFE Pistol, a couple of eight pounders of 50BMG, and a grab bag of the rest. Anyway, that's my sob story for the powders I've tried.

CH4D had six sets of ".400Whelen G&H" when I got mine a couple of months ago. I asked about the "JGS" version and Dave said it'd be six months lead time, same with any other version not on the shelf. FWIW, the sized brass is coming out of my G&H dies with a .458" shoulder so the dies are working fine in the "Petrov" chamber.

Well, I've got almost everything ready to go except for the rear peep sight. As soon as it comes in I'll be sending everything to Rusty to have the 400 Whelen put together. The dies did come in today so I had a go at forming a couple of Quality Cartridge's cylindrical 400 Whelen brass. Bad News... As Ron and Rusty have found, the neck has that much thicker area at the case mouth(I can't remember what the technical term for it is). With a bullet seated the front of the neck measures .438". The diameter just behind the thickest portion of the neck measures .435". So I go to QC's website to check for any technical notes and, BINGO!, they have this noted under the 400 Whelen brass:

"The .400 Whelen Basic is supplied as "Cylindrical". It is intended for use as a wildcatter's case to form many different .30-06 / .308 family widldcats from. The case neck will need to be reamed or turned after final forming."

So does this mean that I just have to accept this anomaly? I recall that other members had returned their brass that exhibited this condition. What was the outcome? I bought 100rds of the stuff and it all has this uneven neck thickness. Thoughts?

Almost all benchrest shooters ream and modify their cases to fit snug their barrel chamfering so I would imagine it's not so big thing to you to do same with yours.

You will need a neck turning tool or a neck reamer. It's really no biggy !! Almost all the target shooters turn or ream their case necks on their brass. . Its just another step. Generally, you will only need to do it once for the life of the case. Another reason I like to fireform up. As in 06 , 35 Whelan ect COW fireformed in your chamber .

I contacted QC about the extra thickness and this what they had to say:

"The 400 Whelen is supplied as a Wildcat case. There is not a final draw missing, there are no further draw steps for this case. Since we don't know what it will be formed into, we can't thin the case mouth/neck. For example, if you make 22-243 Win, the internal taper will be vastly different than the 35 Wheln Ackley Improved. If we were to provide cases with an internal taper for the 22-243 Win, the upper portion of the case would be way too thin for the 35 Whelen Ackley Improved. It is intended that the end user forms the case, then neck turns or neck reams to get the appropriate thickness for their application. If you have any further questions, we will be more than happy to help. Just call or email."

So I guess my next post will be in the reloading forum to learn what I need to be able to trim necks...

My action and barrel arrived at the Hilltop Gun Shop today! It's all up to Rusty now. BTW, I'm sure I've driven Rusty crazy with emails, but he's always taken the time to answer all my questions. Great guy. I'm super psyched to see his work. My only question now is: Who will be the next to join the 400 Whelenites???

quote:

Originally posted by +Templar+:
My action and barrel arrived at the Hilltop Gun Shop today! It's all up to Rusty now. BTW, I'm sure I've driven Rusty crazy with emails, but he's always taken the time to answer all my questions. Great guy. I'm super psyched to see his work. My only question now is: Who will be the next to join the 400 Whelenites???

ME,,,,,,,,,

I have lots of fireformed brass ,bullets, and a set of CH dies here,, also a barrel bit is has the fine thread on it.

My thinking was to find a nice Springfield but a Rem 1917 with great wood showed up and will probably send it off for a rebarrel. My gunsmith suggested PasNor,,does that sound OK for the CH Whelen G&H?

thanks in advance Jim

waterrat
I don't think that Pac Nor has the twist right for the 400 Whelen. I've used Pac Nor for many other barrels and they are great but just didn't have the right stuff for this application. I did a lot of research before I ordered mine and Shilen was the barrel of choice. You can also go back and read these 400 Whelen threads I believe Shilen was preferred.

Snellstrom The barrel I have is a Shilen,, I bought it from PWS on here,, the only problem is it has the fine thread,, thin A-bolt or SC 70,, if I can make it work I will. What are your thought's on th fin threaded barrel??
I believe this project will go slow to make sure it's done right. I've got a new 35 Gibbs to mess with for the summer.

Jim, this 400 Whelen thing is getting out of hand here in Alaska. Everywhere I turn folks are either building them or working up loads. besides Marty here in that valley, Morris Melani is building at least one and there is a good chance PWS will bring his to camp this season. Then Lon Paul and the bear hunter coming with him will also each have one. I have been hoping to avoid building a new rifle and was hoping my 375 Whelen ( aka Scovill, aka 9.5x63) will work.

Phil
You are going to have to face the facts, you need and want a .400 Whelen.....
Springfield or an Enfield action and you are off and running!

waterrat
When you say fine thread and SC 70 I assume you mean a Win M70 action? Sorry I'm not a gunsmith so sometimes I'm out of my depth here. I built mine on a Springfield because that's what Whelen would have done, however anything you build it on that cycles 30/06 cartridges through the action will work. I'm sure the thin fine thread barrel will be fine.
If I were in your shoes I'd find a rifle action that fits your barrel and get it going!.

I am really enjoying my 400! Mediocre loads that throw a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps and very accurate what's not to love. I'm quite sure I can push 400 grain bullets to 2200 maybe 2250 fps although I'm not sure I need to.
Have fun with your projects guys...

My "problem" was that I decided that maybe my 30-06 Sedgley would be a great basis for a 400 but when I dug it out I remembered the bore is so nice I had second thoughts.

The Gentleman's Big Bore!!

quote:

I am really enjoying my 400! Mediocre loads that throw a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps and very accurate what's not to love. I'm quite sure I can push 400 grain bullets to 2200 maybe 2250 fps although I'm not sure I need to.

As I in "MY OPINION" using a 3.4" OAL and say a 24" I think you would be hard pressed to get 2250 2200 is also probably stretching it as well. That said cut the throat longer and use an action that can handle say 3.5" and you have excellent chance at a usable load at 2250.

But Snellstrom's last thought pretty much says it all in my book. "do I need too" the 450-400 has been around for years. Can't even begin to imagine the amount of large game it has taken. Looking at modern factory Kynoch calls their 400 as 2125fps. Hornady 2050fps.

Work up a load in the 2050-2150 range and be happy. Your brass will last until you lose it.

If 2100fps with a 400gr doesn't do it what would make you think a 400 at 2250 would?

Darn if I didn't peek at this thread and get the itch all over again.

Bill you need and want one I can tell. Just make it happen.
I love mine so much I'm thinking about a second one and that is absolutely insane!

I,ve been showing all my buddies my 400 Whelen rounds for month's now,, time to put it together soon, I tried to retire but working more than before!

Bill; you don't have one yet????
You started this whole thing :-).
I just spent the price of building 2 of them on fat bikes. So, I don't see the wife oking me building one this year. But I am keeping my eye peeled for a stainless Ruger in an 06 round for a donor. Lookin forward to seeing pics of yours Jim. !
I have been playing with my 9.3×64 lately which has tempered my 400 Whelan urges temporarily.

CTF: I have my father's old Springfield in one of those Boyd's Classic stocks. Be pretty easy to put a Shilen barrel on it. Two projects in line ahead of this one ...

How's everyone doing with their 400s ? Can't let this end up on the back page. Too much great info on here. Maybe Jim has his . Me , I haven't got mine started yet, but might have a line on a very sweet 375 Brown Whelan.

I couldn't be happier with mine.
I do need to kill some game with it, so far it is a paper punching milk jug killing machine!
My 12 year old is fascinated with it and anytime I have it out he wants to shoot a shot or 2 through it. So far best 400 grain load is 58 grains of IMR 4895, sends the bullet 2140 fps. Also 300 grain bullets with TAC are very accurate.

quote:

So far best 400 grain load is 58 grains of IMR 4895,

I get 66 grs in mine OK longer case shoulder forward.

If a 400gr at 2140 doesn't do it then you have a problem.

What I need to do is start taking small , time consuming bites out of the apple. Like get the dies and a Lee bullet sizer, a bunch of brass and bullets. Stuff like that.
If I lived in town , ( read, near gunshops) I probably would have impulsively got a donor rifle and barrel by now.

quote:

Lee bullet sizer

There are a lot of bullets around that don't need the lee.