quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Ok... How 'bout we check a cartridge allegedly head-spacing off the case mouth.
The 30 Carbine has the following Min/Max specs:
Chamber: 1.2902" Minimum / Cartridge: 1.2902" Maximum
Which is 0.0000" difference.

I'd say you'd need to use a similar 0.0000" difference for head-spacing off the case mouth with the 400 WP...

Good info, Jim, thanks.
I could let my brass grow to 2.5090" ... or just trim it to that for initial fire-forming of the next batch,
if I could measure ten-thousandths reliably.
I guess thousandths will do.
That is certain to be done for a fire-forming test, with no crimp, no chamfer.
The 400 WPB max brass spec is not finalized yet!

Shot a 40-shot composite group at 100 yards while chronographing the 400 WPB yesterday, 25" barreled M70 Classic, 73 degrees F.

Strictly H4198 loads with CCI BR-2 primer.
Each primer has a tiny little "B" stamped on the cup face.
Brass length was allowed to be as long as 2.505" with no problems occurring.

GSC 317-grain, COL 3.550"
53 to 57 grains H4198
5-shot averages, 5-yards from muzzle to chronograph:
53.0 grains >>> 2274 fps
54.0 grains >>> 2325 fps
55.0 grains >>> 2371 fps
56.0 grains >>> 2404 fps and Sd = 3 fps (most uniform load)
57.0 grains >>> 2438 fps


Barnes 300-grain TSX, COL 3.405"
56 to 58 grains H4198
5-shot averages, 5-yards to chrono:
56.0 grains >>> 2358 fps
57.0 grains >>> 2432 fps (Oops, maybe previous charge was 55.0 grains instead of 56.0? Big velocity increase for 1-grain charge increase.)
58.0 grains >>> 2476 fps, Sd = 6 fps (most uniform TSX load for this outing)

Next: 59.0 grains H4198 might crack 2500 fps with 300-grain TSX?

Final max brass length of the 400 WPB is still TBA.

100% burn and >40% thermodynamic efficiency with H4198. Wow!

It's coming along nicely Ron!

Thanks, Jim.
On the Barnes TSX 300-grainer:
I think I forgot to reset the scale to 56.0, left it on 55.0, and Sharpie mislabeled it as I weighed the powder charges into the cases.
Used the Hornady "Lock-N-Load Auto Charge Powder Dispenser" which has worked well as long as I don't screw up, getting used to new technology.

I think the rest of the data is good. Oehler 35-P chronographed.
Add 10 fps to the GSC velocities to correct to MV from 5 yards from muzzle reading (BC = .411).
BC for TSX is .281, so add 15 fps to correct to MV.

Interesting to compare MV generated with each of those bullets with the same powder charge:
57.0 grains H4198
317-grain HV: 2448 fps MV
300-grain TSX: 2447 fps MV

No pressure signs yet.
Might try working up to 59.0 grains of H4198 with both bullets.
Better stop there if I survive.

Then I will see how fast the 400-grainers will go with custom cannelures and long-nose loading.

Turning a 270 WCF into a 400 Whelen variant with .375 H&H length box is cool.

I have a FN mauser with original 270 heavy barrel that is only 20 in long. I'm considering having it rebored to 400 Whelen.

Would 20" be considered too short - how much velocity loss would be expected in this cartridge? It's a consideration as to whether the results would be worth the expense.

Phil

quote:

posted document.write('<nobr>'+ myTimeZone('Thu, 12 Jun 2014 18:24:47 GMT-0700', '13 June 2014 06:24')+'</nobr>');13 June 2014 06:2413 June 2014 06:24Hide PostI have a FN mauser with original 270 heavy barrel that is only 20 in long. I'm considering having it rebored to 400 Whelen.

For my $$ I would pull the 20" sell or save it and install a nice new 24"

I was able to sneak off to the range on Friday and shot my 1903 .400 Whelen for the first time. A few observations:

-Rifle is too light for caliber. Needs at least another pound of weight and a softer pad.

-Used loads developed here for 300, 350 and 400 grain bullets with H-4895. All of the loads tested were too hot in my rifle. Sticky bolt lift and VERY flattened primers. Loaded another batch of 300gr Hornadys and some 315gr hard cast and dropped the charge by three grains. Yeah, I know...I should have known better. Each rifle is a rule unto itself. You would think after reloading for 40 years I would have learned that. Evidently not...

-Even though this was mostly a fireform and barrel break in session, accuracy looks promising. This rifle will shoot all three bullet weights into basically the same group at 100 yards. Interesting…

-The trigger on this rifle WILL get replaced. Having a creepy trigger pull that is too light is not a good combo on a rifle that kicks this hard. Got surprised a couple of times. Not fun.

-When you whack a gong at 200 yards with a 400 grain bullet moving at 2,150 fps, it MOVES. So does the rifle.

Nice to read all this on the 400 Whelen.

I built one on a '98 Mauser action, and took it on a one-gun hunt in Tanzania; if you search my forum posts here you can see Michael Petrov's and my exchanges on it.

The QC brass will last a lifetime. I had to inside neck ream mine (after fire-forming)due to the thickness of the brass. At first I fire-formed with .408 lead cast bullets, then inside neck reamed (with a .411 reamer). I finally learned I could trim the cylinder brass to length, size, and then before firing, inside neck ream with a .410 reamer meant for 41 Magnum pistol brass (inside neck reaming should normally be done after firing). Somehow any inconsistencies in the neck wall thickness was ironed out by the pressures from full power loads.

I hadn't fired the rifle in 5 or 6 years, and when I took it on a whitetail hunt this past season my scope was way off on my sight-in target, so I had to borrow a friends rifle (not having brought enough ammo to really dial it in).

This rifle also taught me a lot about Barnes bullets and their TSX bullets. You will never see a more beautiful curl of the bullets petals/mushroom than what these look like after recovered from game.

My chamber has the 40 degree shoulder.

It's a little light (in my opinion) on buffalo, but it gets the job done with proper bullet placement. It's hell on wheels for everything else.

Sorry to come to this discussion so late; I haven't been coming here for awhile.
Currently on a river cruise in France with my wife. Plan to visit a gun shop here in Lyon tomorrow. I'm playing hookey from a walking tour that she's on.

Garrett

N. Garrett lives!

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=395103914#395103914

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=285106145#285106145

Mossyrock,

How much does your rifle weigh, empty, dry, no scope, naked rifle weight?

What is the make of your barrel, and do you have the bore and groove specs?

I have been distracted by BPCR, will get back to 400 Whelen ...

A South Carolina-made M70 "Extreme Weather" .338 WinMag weighs 6 lbs. and 14 oz. out of the box with 26" fluted barrel,
composite stock with full metal endoskeleton, one-piece floor plate-trigger guard, and two hex-head action screws.
I figure the same model 270 Winchester would make a great 400 Whelen by re-barreling.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:
Mossyrock,

How much does your rifle weigh, empty, dry, no scope, naked rifle weight?

What is the make of your barrel, and do you have the bore and groove specs?
QUOTE]

I don't have a weight yet. I need to grab a kitchen scale and take it out to the shop. As for the barrel, I followed Mart's lead and went with a Shilen. I can't get Shilen's website to come up at the moment, but I THINK it is a #5 contour. Regardless, it is the same barrel Marty has on his rifle.

Yes, Shilen is the best option, .404" land/bore and .411" groove, 1:14" twist.
The number 5 sporter contour is the medium weight barrel.
Number 4 is as light as you should go, and I would not want one any heavier than the number 5.

I have a Shilen No. 5 CM barrel and a Shilen No. 4 SS barrel.
At one time shilen said they would not make a SS No. 4 barrel, but they did one time for me.

Krieger is .405" bore/land and .4115" groove, also .403"/.411",
both available only as CM.

I do not know the Douglas Rifle Barrels specs for groove and bore, but I might need to investigate that,
since they seem to have started offering that caliber since I last checked.

Pac-Nor and McGowen are all screwed up on their 400 Whelen barrel specs, IIRC.

Shilen is the best all around choice for 400 Whelen, IMHO.

I got mine from IT&D Custom guns in Minerva, OH.
It's a Douglas, 23 inches, with a .410 groove diameter.

What's interesting about it is that will shoot the older (all copper) Barnes Bullets very accurately (the one's that don't have the driving bands). No other rifle of mine will shoot those bullets accurately. I believe it's due to the groove diameter being slightly undersize.

No pressure issues with any bullet I've shot thus far (within the operating parameters of the 400 Whelen I should add).

I got home too late to reach Douglas by telephone,
will try again later, or try an email.
They advertise a barrel for 405 Winchester but don't specify the bore and groove.
I need .411 groove.

Douglas barrels were .410 groove when I last inquired about them, but that was several years ago.

Mine shoots .411 bullets perfectly.

Garrett

I use a Douglas on my 400PDK works great with both 410 & 411s

I've spent the last three days, reading this thread over and over, trying to convince myself that I don't want a 400 Whelen. But I really do. It's just a really cool round. I gotta have one... Question(first of many): Regarding the reduced taper in the neck of the 400WB2013 chamber, does it offer any other advantage besides creating a little more shoulder? I have an excellent FN Mauser action that would be the perfect donor for this project. The magazine length measures 3.400"+/- so I can't really take advantage of the extra free bore that Mr. Berry included in his reamer design. If the reduced taper in the neck does have another advantage besides creating a little extra shoulder, I may consider having a reamer made for my smith that is just like Ron's, but with less free bore.

Now someone can educate me on free bore a little bit... All I know about free bore is that Weatherby chambers had some free bore to let the bullet get a running start to the lands, to keep the pressure spikes down I presume. I wouldn't think free bore would have a positive effect on accuracy, but it seems that if it is correctly done, it shouldn't have a negative effect. I'm talking hunting accuracy here. Would the extra free bore in Ron's design have a negatively effect the performance of my rifle if I could only load to an OAL of 3.340?

BTW, this is an excellent thread!

Just a touch over eight and a half pounds, unloaded. Might have to add a pound to that.

quote:

Originally posted by +Templar+:
I've spent the last three days, reading this thread over and over, trying to convince myself that I don't want a 400 Whelen. But I really do. It's just a really cool round. I gotta have one...

Chosen wisely you have. Strong in you is The Force.

Question(first of many): Regarding the reduced taper in the neck of the 400WB2013 chamber, does it offer any other advantage besides creating a little more shoulder?

That is the main advantage, better shoulder. A minute factor is not having to blow out your neck-1 brass diameter and size it back down that extra .003" every time you reload. The 400WP2003 and the 400WB2013 have the same neck-2 and the sizing dies work the same for both. It became quickly apparent that the dies produce a parallel-sided neck and all readily available brass works just fine for the 400WB2013 chamber with those dies, the CH4D-JGS and RCBS-G&H, which are for identical reamers, one from JGS and the other from PT&G. The JGS reamer seems to be a copy of the PT&G reamer made for the G&H chamber cast by Michael Petrov.

The reason for the huge neck taper of .004" from neck-1 (at shoulder) to neck-2 (at case mouth) I can only guess is because back in the 1940-1950 period the brass being used by Griffin & Howe was causing a "dreaded doughnut" when it was necked up to accept a .411-caliber bullet. Big neck taper allowed avoidance of neck turning or reaming?
The G&H reamer used then was not for the same "400 Whelen Townsend of 1923" which used a .409-caliber bullet and did not have the excessive neck taper, I assume, for the reamer of 1923.
The cartridge drawing from 1923, found on the previous page of this thread (repeated there, again)
has only .001" of neck taper, like the 400WB2013.



I have an excellent FN Mauser action that would be the perfect donor for this project. The magazine length measures 3.400"+/- so I can't really take advantage of the extra free bore that Mr. Berry included in his reamer design. If the reduced taper in the neck does have another advantage besides creating a little extra shoulder, I may consider having a reamer made for my smith that is just like Ron's, but with less free bore.

Now someone can educate me on free bore a little bit... All I know about free bore is that Weatherby chambers had some free bore to let the bullet get a running start to the lands, to keep the pressure spikes down I presume. I wouldn't think free bore would have a positive effect on accuracy, but it seems that if it is correctly done, it shouldn't have a negative effect. I'm talking hunting accuracy here. Would the extra free bore in Ron's design have a negatively effect the performance of my rifle if I could only load to an OAL of 3.340?

BTW, this is an excellent thread!

Now Free-Bore:

The 400WB2013 has just .112" longer free-bore than the 400WP2003.
Parallel-sided free-bore length of the two:
400WP2003: .188"
400WB2013: .300"

The 400WB2013 has less than a three-quarter caliber, parallel-sided, free-bore length.

The tiniest 3-shot, 100-yard group I ever fired with a "big bore" was in a a .375 Weatherby using a Bridger copy of the 300-grain Walterhog.
That bullet is mostly long nose.
It has a long way to jump to the rifling in the .375 Weatherby with .370"-long parallel-sided free-bore, almost a full bullet diameter of length to jump:



Here is a 500 A-Square variant that had its parallel-sided free-bore lengthened from .400" to .588" (greater than caliber length) in my first "wildcatting-beginner's" experiment.
The 705-grain AAA Harlow bullet is also mostly long and pointy nose, and was not seated very close to rifling:



Here is the .375 Jeffery Saeed of 2012, reverse engineered, but since throat was unknown,
the same .375 Weatherby CIP throat from 2002 (newest from Weatherby as of 2001 factory rifles) was used on it too, about one-caliber PS-free-bore length:





BTW, I was aiming at the white diamond in the bottom of the black target, POA = POI, zeroed at 100 yards.
The white circle in the center of the black would be for a 3"-high POI.
Was it me pulling the shots or is the GSC bullet twice as accurate as the Barnes TSX?
If anything, with throat here, the GSC HV had farther to jump to rifling than the Barnes TSX,
and it managed OK in a caliber-length, parallel-sided free-bore.

Recall the actual 400WB2013 targets, from .300"-long PS free-bore:

Long way to jump a pistol bullet of only .410" diameter through a .300"-long and .412"-wide parallel-sided free-bore from less than 3" C.O.L., but it did OK:



And here is the long-nosed GSC HV .411/317-grainer in my "not-too-long throat." With the long ogive of that bullet, there is quite a jump too.
First shot was a fouler at 100 yards, high and left, next 4 were starting to "shoot-in":





Stay tuned for the "400 Whelen Petrov Berry of 2014," which differs from the 400WB2013
only in max brass length spec (2.505"), minimum brass trim-to length (2.504"), and max C.O.L. (3.600").
It uses the same reamer.
All 270 WCF chambered M70 Winchester rifles should be converted to this "new cartridge."
Pop out the spacer at the back of the magazine and shorten the bolt stop, and re-barrel: Voila!

I think I get the idea. The free bore isn't going to hurt a thing. Thanks for taking the time to post all the pics. Very cool.

Getting ready to order a .411" barrel from Shilen. Lapping is an option($40) for CM barrels. Is there any need to have it lapped? I'm cheap, I can't help but ask.

Looks great.
The 317 gr HV looks to be about the ideal bullet. I've only read 3 pages of this thread so far. So I wont ask any questions yet. . It does.look like it would be a pretty ideal all around Alaska rifle and load at 2550 fps. .
Brass would be alot easier to come by than my 9.3×64 also.
Oh well. I have a couple 338/375 Rugers that I want first.
Sounds like this is a short list rifle tho.

quote:

Is there any need to have it lapped?

I did not get a lapped barrel for my rifle. It would probably be wise to do so, thus avoiding many enjoyable hours soaking and scrubbing the bore. My rifle now has enough rounds through it for the barrel to be smooth and produce minimal fouling. It is much quicker to clean, even after 30 to 40 rounds. That's all bridge under the water now.

Rusty,
PM sent...

Also... Did anyone try Duane's XRM magazine box as mentioned earlier? 5+1 sounds really handy...

quote:

Originally posted by +Templar+:
Also... Did anyone try Duane's XRM magazine box as mentioned earlier? 5+1 sounds really handy...

I'll have to check but I think my 400 Whelen fits 5 down + 1 in the pipe, mines on a 1903 Springfield action.

I torn between using a Mauser action or a Winchester Classic action for this build. I tried fitting five 9.3x62's in the magazine of both, since it's an "improved" case as well, but I could only get 4 down. I guess I don't have to have five down, but it'd be nice...

quote:

Originally posted by +Templar+:
I torn between using a Mauser action or a Winchester Classic action for this build. I tried fitting five 9.3x62's in the magazine of both, since it's an "improved" case as well, but I could only get 4 down. I guess I don't have to have five down, but it'd be nice...

I used a Springfield action cuz thats what Whelen would have done. I mostly own all Winchesters with a couple Rugers thrown in but when I built a 9.3x62 I used a Mouser action.
In your shoes I'd use the Winchester and save the Mouser for a metric.

quote:

I tried fitting five 9.3x62's in the magazine of both, since it's an "improved" case as well, but I could only get 4 down

Just take a file and open the box right at the shoulder. Doesn't take much then you get 5 down.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

I tried fitting five 9.3x62's in the magazine of both, since it's an "improved" case as well, but I could only get 4 down

Just take a file and open the box right at the shoulder. Doesn't take much then you get 5 down.

I considered that after you suggested the same on a 375-06 thread I started. The bottom metal is FN's commercial version of a military trigger guard(no lock screws and an extended floor-plate release button). They sure didn't leave much material in the shoulder area. It measures 870 microns. It'll be paper thin by the time I widen it enough. Or is it not an issue? Thanks!

There is nothing at all wrong with 4 down. I've opened the FN for 5. You don't need much removed each case spreads just a touch and by the time you get to the top you have enough give to allow the 5th.

Again nothing wrong with 4 down. If you can't get him in 5 shots then doubt one more would make a difference. But it is an easy fix for those that WANT 5 down.

Thanks for the input Paul. I'll give it a whirl on some old military bottom metal for practice and see how it works out. Your right though, nothing wrong with 4 down(thats how my 35 Whelen improved is set up). I just want five down on this project because... well... just cause.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
I had mine out yesterday shooting it. Was cold and clear with no wind!
I shot 58 grains of TAC and 400 grain Hornadys
with an average velocity of 2065 average.
Then shot 59 grains TAC and same bullet for an average of 2109 fps.
I use the C4HD dies and used Michael Petrov's reamer, dies were ordered to the reamer spec's and my dies are marked 400 Whelen.
Mine is built on a 1903 Springfield, I'll show some pictures cuz I'm pretty darn happy with it. It has a Timney trigger, m7o style wing safety, reshaped NECG front sight and a standing rear with one leaf rear sight.
I have a 2-7 Leupold on it in quick release mounts since the pictures.
Good luck with yours!

Did Kevin Weaver build this rifle? It looks really really good! I looked into using a Springfield action, but the only affordable(for my measly budget) ones were really "crappy"...

Been reading a lot of vintage Keith and found this EXCELLENT thread.

From what I gather here, both the Ruger 77 and Win 70 work fine with the properly dimensioned shoulder but both will only hold four down. How do the rounds stack in each? Winchester boxes taper more than the Ruger so I'm assuming that the Ruger is a better fit??

Roughone didn't say (or I missed it) what capacity and magazine box/bottom metal he used with his FN Mauser.

Of course, a vintage Oberndorf sporter or Springfield action would be the most nostalgic action for a build but is it true the Ruger the most practical/best fit for a modern beater?

Thanks!

quote:

Did Kevin Weaver build this rifle? It looks really really good! I looked into using a Springfield action, but the only affordable(for my measly budget) ones were really "crappy"...

Yes Templar, Kevin did build my rifle.

PWS either a Win M70 or a Ruger would work just fine. My Springfield holds 5 down plus one in the pipe with no mods that I know of.
I got lucky about 8 years ago and bought the Springfield I used for under 200$ on Gunbroker and it was ugly, hand carved naked lady stock, high see thru rings, rust pitted barrel. Believe it or not I sold the rings and naked lady carved stock for 80$!

Hey guys just curious. When you seat those heavy bullets out to the 3.5+" range with no crimp do you get any movement from the rounds in the bottom of the mag box from recoil?

They kind of look like the old WWII era heavy military bullets on steroids.

Function tops appearance.

Paul
I'm mostly shooting the 400 grain Hornadys that have a cannelure and haven't had any trouble yet but that is a good thing to keep an eye on.

Paul I just looked and I'm running them at 3.2" overall length, sorry for butting in.

quote:

I'm mostly shooting the 400 grain Hornadys that have a cannelure and haven't had any trouble yet but that is a good thing to keep an eye on.

If you are using the Hornady cannelure then you are not seating out to the 3.5 range. Unless I'm missing something. With the 400s in my 400PDK with 2.65" brass I'm right at 3.34".

Further looking they might be crimping the non Hornady's in that picture.

As I said I don't really care for the looks of a bullet out that far. But, if the bullet stays in place you can for sure gain some net capacity and milk the case for all it's worth.