Trust me--416's work-

Buff and elle this year

Tanz

As always, your contributions are very good, regardless of the big yearly contribution, you have many more than that thru the year! Job Well done, once again.

I concur with RIP, excellent performance, and probably if it were not for NonCons, North Fork, and myself being a bit pissed at the barnes sell out of performance with the solids, then I would be using that same exact bullet in our 416 B&Ms. In fact, we did in 2008. Of course the 20 inch 416 B&M only gets it to 2450 fps, my boys used the 350 TSX in South Africa on their very first African trip. Kudu, oryx, and assorted other critters, and it did a jam up job there.

Funny, Lionhunter and I have just been discussing 416 in some of our conversations of late. I have very little 416 experience, first time out was in 2005 Win M70 416 Remington, Tanzania as well, using it as my light rifle. At that time I was shooting that wonderful 340 Woodleigh at 2550 fps. It hammered sable, roan, hartebeasts, zebra and such as that. I used a 458 Lott to do the heavier work. But the 416 did great in the capacity I used it for.

In 2007 I had a 416 B&M along in Zimbabwe, shot one cow buffalo with 350 Swift A at 2400 fps, 30 yds, piled up stone cold.

Then in 2008 the South African trip with the boys. I was going to us my favorite little 416 B&M in the Arctic in 2010 on the muskox but United lost my damned ammo!

Just the last week I was working with a new 300 BBW#13 NonCon, bands forward, seated deep, work in the magazine with a tip. But, it was a failure on my part, for the purposes I wanted with this particular bullet, it is too long, too heavy. I wanted a faster BBW#13 NonCon for thin skinned work only. Even now with as much as I know about these bullets, I still get caught up in OLD WAYS. This bullet did no better than the 300 ESP Raptor--In fact, the Raptor does a better job and does it with less pressure than this particular bullet. The 416 ESP Raptor is a pretty spiffy bullet on its own. I know the mistake I made, I need a 250 gr BBW#13 NonCon in .416 to achieve what I want, thin skinned only. Maybe even 225. You know we had incredible success during this same time frame with a 250 .458 bullet, same purpose in mind! However, mind set got in the way on the 416.

Lionhunter is talking to me about doing some more work with the 416s. They are incredibly versatile, easy to shoot, easy to work with, and when called upon can handle the heavy work as well. Cross proved that to me with his hunt recently!

Again, Tanz, job well done! Well done indeed!

Michael

Doc M, Sam & every one else in the area that Sandy has her sights on. Stay SAFE.

Regards

Just to add a bit to the .416B&M thoughts, as Michael said, I believe this could be the "best" of the B&M cartridge/rifle combinations, and it could be that "one gun" solution we all seek.

I've used the .416Rem extensively on Buff and large PG (Eland) with great results. I opted to use the .458Lott and then the .458B&M on Ele, because I had them available. But I would never have been hesitant to use that .416Rem on Ele, if the need arose.

Now we have CrossL dropping an Ele with the .416B&M, and it got me to thinking about Michael conducting more lab testing of loads from the 416B&M for thin skinned game. That would lead to field testing of the 416B&M on BOTH PG and DG on the ground in africa.

I think the 416B&M could be just the ticket. If Michael's testing confirms my suspicions, I could see myself trading the 458B&M for a 416B&M very easily. (And yes, I know I can own both, but I am really trying to reduce the size of my armory!)

What with the continuing changing of firearms regs and luggage charges by the airlines and import fees by foreign countries, a one gun safari looks better to me all the time. And in the pre 911 days I often took 3 firearms to africa on each safari! Those 3 gun safaris are a thing of the past, for sure.

So Michael, please, I hope you will find the time to look into doing some more in depth testing on the 416B&M loads. I suspect we may all be very pleasantly surprised.

I can see a 416 B&M as an all-around candidate, short, elegant, and hard hitting.

2400fps is on the slow side for 'all-around', so a lighter non-con is necessary for he B&M

The poor man's version is the 416 Ruger Alaskan. It will do 2600fps with 350 grain bullets. For me, 2600 fps is a minimum for plains game. You might need to shoot a little oribi at 201 yards. Non-cons could lighten and flatten that some more, too.



entry on inside of left front leg



exit blew out heart, offside, 201 yards, 35 lb. animal. 416 is enough gun.
(the same animal is in the pictures, one pic is after skinning and 24 hous partial drying/smoking.)

tanz

The 416 B&M runs 300-325 gr bullets, CEB Raptors Barnes tsx and CEB #13 non-cons, at 2650 to 2550 fps, not 2400.

Cross:

Yes, lighter is faster.
I was referring to the 350 grainers, and they should go 2500+ fps if the 416 Ruger can do 2600. The Ruger only has a 5-6 grain powder capacity advantage.

Tanz

The 416 B&M in 20 inches gives us 2500 to 2550 with the 325 #13 NonCon, and deeper penetration than the 350 TSX, of course. Same with the 325 North Fork Premium. Dropping to 300 TSX we get 2650 fps, and from 2600-2625 with the 300 ESP Raptor. Must remember the B&M is a much smaller rifle than your big CZ. So life is a compromise, some things come at a cost. And of course I am no long range shooter, 50 yards is a LONG RANGE for me! LOL................ And, the 300 ESP Raptor can do anything the 350 TSX can do, and maybe a bit better on many things.

I am particularly partial to a little 18 inch 416 B&M I did a few years ago, damn it is light, 6.5 lbs, with that Camo Ultimate stock, short and handy as well. But even the B&Ms start loosing some velocity with the short barrels when you get down to 416 caliber. On some loads I lost as much as 30 fps per inch, some loads I lost nearly nothing. But all that I was willing to sacrifice for the handling ability. Of course, up in caliber to 458-500 you loose nearly nothing going from 20 to 18. In 458 loosing only 10-15 fps per inch depending on the load. In the 50, lose nothing going from 20-18. Loose only about 30 fps total going down to 16. More inside cubic inches to burn.

I also have Nikons on all mine now--still zero problems, zero issues, nothing. I would have repaired 10 Leupolds in the same amount of time! Nikons have been a best kept secret I know of in years! Who would have thought it? Not me!

Lionhunter, I have a lot of data on various 416 B&Ms, I have done about all the range work, but just not put them in the field personally a lot. There are a bunch of 416 B&Ms out there. I have yet to get a bad report on anything. Cross used the first one I know of on elephant for sure.

None the less, that 350 TSX is a good bullet, and did a fine job for you, and would continue to do so.


Thanks Esskay, long past us here now, and hitting our boys up in Yankee land! CCMdoc and those boys, take care, batten down the hatches!

Michael

A 225 .186 SD to 250 grain .206 SD Non Con would be great for so many critters.
They sure do love velocity.
A 250 Non Con @ 3K FPS would be just wicked.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
A 225 .186 SD to 250 grain .206 SD Non Con would be great for so many critters.
They sure do love velocity.
A 250 Non Con @ 3K FPS would be just wicked.

3000 fps sounds about right. That would be 5000 foot-pounds and the 416 B&M should be good for that.

Since the Rigby already does 3000fps with 300 grainers, would that mean a 3300 fps screaming meanie, 6050 ftlbs? Even though I love a flat trajectory, I'm not sure that I could effectively use such flatness. Aftrican game tends to be big and viewed on flat land. Over 400 yard targets just arn't practical, I've never taken one. Plus, when using flatnness, the wind and BC becomes a major factor, which asks for more weight and a longer, streamlined body shape. I think for the Rigby closer to a 300 grain tipped non-con would be better, and could continue to handle buffalo well. So 250 grain .416 for smaller 416's and 300 for the Rigby and Weatherby.

Michael,
Oh, let them put 26" barrels on their rifles. It will save more game for you.


(an by the way, you've got me down to 20" bbbls on several of my rifles.

In a 10.75x68 with a COL of 3.34 instead of 3.19
aprox.

What kind of MV do you think a .423 325gn #13 NonCon
would go? A 350gn does about 2350fps.
I'm not sure if that is at 3.19 or 3.34 COL.

Started at 2350fps how would it perform out to 200 yds?

After reading some of this tread... it seems the NonCons
like to go as fast as they can and SD doesn't seem to have
the same bearing on them as a conventual bullet.

So is there really anything gained going with the 375gn .423 NonCon over the 325gn?

In either in a 10.75x68 or the 404J.

In the 404J the 325gn could just go faster.

Allen

My 10.75x68 Mauser comments moved to this thread:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...881095181#3881095181

My 10.75x68 Mauser comments moved to this thread:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...881095181#3881095181

quote:

After reading some of this tread... it seems the NonCons
like to go as fast as they can and SD doesn't seem to have
the same bearing on them as a conventual bullet.

So is there really anything gained going with the 375gn .423 NonCon over the 325gn?

Allen

Jim gave you some good info, and glad he came back on the .423 stuff! Thanks Jim! I had forgotten what we had done in .423 since I don't shoot that.

Your thoughts on the NonCon tend to be correct in my opinion. 375 vs 325 depends on the cartridge/velocity. If a large capacity cartridge is used, and get good velocity out of the 375 gr, then you will gain penetration, but little else. Trauma would be the same either way. A fast 325 will do a hell of a lot of damage. I would think this would be in the same category as the 325 416, which has proven itself on buffalo several times. Run that 325 up in velocity and nothing is going to carry it very far, if at all!

Michael

Got some great work in yesterday with the 50 B&M Alaskan and 50 B&M with the new 400 gr North Fork Premium Soft Point. I like this bullet, and for a conventional, it does great, and will serve the purpose well for those who still like and need a conventional soft.



The 50 B&M Alaskan is of course the lever cartridge, and on a Marlin Guide Gun, 18 inches. In the load data I was able to safely get over 2100 fps with the 400 North Fork with 3 different powders, IMR 4198, H-4198, and RL 7.




I was very well pleased with the results of how the bullet performs in the 50 B&M Alaskan, and would have it classified as being able to handle any thin skinned critter on the planet, even the biggest antelope. Penetration for me comes a bit short of being a buffalo bullet, but anything else is a go.

Those are pretty bullets, but probably not ready for 2750 fps.

Which brings up the question of .510" tipped non-con bullets, 350 grains.
Did those get tested while I was in the bush or are they still coming up?

Thanks Jim for the info!

Wow, the 325gn .423 does good out to 200 yds.
I was surprised, pleasantly.

My 10.75x68 is going to be an open sight only
rifle. Express & Lyman peep.

So a 200 yrd shoot would be rare.
But it's nice to know its not going to be a foot low
if I need to go a bit long.

Jim, out of curiosity, what kind of MV be possible with
the 375 & 400gn .423 NonCons in the 10.75x68 with a COL
of 3.36 or 3.4?

Cheers, Allen

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Those are pretty bullets, but probably not ready for 2750 fps.

Which brings up the question of .510" tipped non-con bullets, 350 grains.
Did those get tested while I was in the bush or are they still coming up?

Are you talking about the 400 NF softs? I don't see why they would not be good at that velocity with the solid shank and being premium bonded bullets.

Well, Woodleigh bullets are bonded and premium, too, and they turn inside out when over 2500 fps.

I would not use on a buffalo at 2750fps. They must be downloaded to 2400 fps for best results and penetration, which gives up a lot of the potential of a big-capacity cartridge.

That is why CEB non-cons, GSC, and TSX were inventend.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Those are pretty bullets, but probably not ready for 2750 fps.

Which brings up the question of .510" tipped non-con bullets, 350 grains.
Did those get tested while I was in the bush or are they still coming up?

I don't know where you were Tanz, but yes I have the .510 caliber 350 #13s done and are history.

In fact, I know they are in hands of a couple of fellows now and may be in the field looking
for critters to try them on.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Well, Woodleigh bullets are bonded and premium, too, and they turn inside out when over 2500 fps.

I would not use on a buffalo at 2750fps. They must be downloaded to 2400 fps for best results and penetration, which gives up a lot of the potential of a big-capacity cartridge.

That is why CEB non-cons, GSC, and TSX were inventend.

Tanz

No man, the North Fork bullets won't pancake or turn inside out at all. At higher velocity they will fold over, but shank remains, and penetration actually increases once that impact velocity reaches a point.

I tested that same bullet in the 50 B&M at a bit more velocity, I still did not get them to the fold over point, this bullet is pretty tough. I was hoping for a bit more penetration at the higher velocity, but what I gained was more trauma instead, and penetration equal. At 15-17 inches of penetration in this medium, it will actually get to the far side of buffalo, BUT not much of a chance of it exiting. So I don't like or promote things as buffalo bullets until I get to a very minimum of 18 inches +. With a NonCon, bit different, as most I have seen that go 17-18 inches in the test medium, exit the far side of buffalo most all the time.

With the North Fork Premium, at 15 inches, nothing on the planet short of the heavies is safe.

Thanks,

it appears that I was on route to Tanzania and setting up internet while you were enjoying yourself with those awesome tests.

I'll take 22" penetration and will probably be using about 2900 fps muzzle velocity in the 500 AccRel Nyati. It doesn't have quite the capacity of the Wells, but its reasonably close.

In fact, 22" penetration is exactly what I am looking for in buffalo. The 18" is marginal since it is only a flat cylinder and not a full mushroom that is going the 18".

quote:

In fact, 22" penetration is exactly what I am looking for in buffalo. The 18" is marginal since it is only a flat cylinder and not a full mushroom that is going the 18".

Tanz

This is a hell of a bullet, and a hell of a boost to .510 bullet tech, in my opinion. This 350 #13 NonCon at velocity, will slam dunk anything you hit with it, you can take that to the bank. What I saw with that little 19 inch short 500 MDM and the then 350 Raptor at 2750 fps, on eland, oryx, wildebeast, it was truly awesome to say the least, and regardless of bone, angle or anything else, none were recovered. They too were in that 23 inch penetration range here in the test medium. I would shoot buffalo with them in a skinny minute, and while I have never ever been one of those velocity "NUTS", there is no doubt that a smaller, lighter #13 NonCon, regardless of caliber, hits hard and penetrates deep. In the old days where we all thought we had to have a 500 gr .458 soft for buffalo, maybe drop to 450 gr, we now can do a hell of a lot better job, hit harder, penetrate deeper, do more damage, with a 350 gr, maybe even a 300!

Old days, had to have a 570 or 525 gr .510 to do the same--Today, this 350 does far more! No doubt about it.

Yes, it blows my mind as well, and sometimes I still hang on to the "Old School" myself, I have to watch myself indeed!

Michael

I also got the .458 300 North Forks in with the 400 gr .500s. Did some work with the 458 B&M Super Short yesterday, one low velocity test for NE450#2 and one normal velocity for the 458 B&M Super Short.






On the low velocity end, I found them to be a little tough, but every bullet has its low end. It still performed well, and even in a 45/70 at starting velocity of 2000 or so, you would not be at bottom performance for a long way out, probably longer than you should be shooting anyway!




Step that velocity up a bit, and guess what, performance takes a bit step up too. Lots of trauma for a semi conventional bullet! For sure a winner, and for sure as good as it gets in a soft premium.






I did not have time to test the 300 North Fork in the 458 B&M. In one of my 18 inch guns I have it running 2760 fps or so. Hopefully I can test that in the morning.

Later
Michael

My 10.75x68 Mauser comments moved to this thread:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...881095181#3881095181

OK, I'll take your word on high velocity NorthFork softs.
In any case, I'll be trying out the CEB 350+tips just as soon as my
rebarreled rifle is ready.

22" penetration in medium should mean full diagonal penetration in buff up
to about a 60° entry angle, maybe more, which is a good standard. I'm
undecided about taking 30° rear-end shots. I've never taken one and might
want a flatnose solid for that.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

In fact, 22" penetration is exactly what I am looking for in buffalo. The 18" is marginal since it is only a flat cylinder and not a full mushroom that is going the 18".

Tanz

Old days, had to have a 570 or 525 gr .510 to do the same--Today, this 350 does far more! No doubt about it.

Yes, it blows my mind as well, and sometimes I still hang on to the "Old School" myself, I have to watch myself indeed!

Michael

It sounds familiar

About 22 years ago straight after I saw the Barnes brass bullets in their brochure I bought about 30 yards of 1/2" brass rods. To copy their .458 RN bullet for my .460Wea as a matter of curiosity.

It never happened and all the rods are still sitting here exactly as they were 22 years ago.

It just looks like that I may get my friend something to do on his CNC.

I like maximum velocity, maximum SD, maximum bullet weight and maximum weight retension.

I think that I caught myself napping for 22 years. I never thought that a brass bullet can be any good.

My only thinking was, that a brass bullet would need to be far too long because the low density of the brass and that stopped me from investigating it any further.

Ah well, you live and learn

Pyzda

MM,
Have you shot any of the deep curl /gold dot .475 bullets? Can I send you some 400 grains to test? These seem to be tough as a boiled boot

http://www.speer-bullets.com/p...unting/deepcurl.aspx

Michael, thanks for continued testing. Great stuff.

The new NF .458 300gr sure looks like a performer. Im a 45/70 Marlin guy, whats your opinion of this bullet at 2000,2100fps or so on North American game, including big bears? How would you rate the tramua at the mentioned speeds? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
MM,
Have you shot any of the deep curl /gold dot .475 bullets? Can I send you some 400 grains to test? These seem to be tough as a boiled boot

http://www.speer-bullets.com/p...unting/deepcurl.aspx

Jeffe

No, I don't think I have tested the "Deep Curl" versions. I am looking now, seems I tested some sort of Speer in the 475 Super Short, but don't recall what. On my shelf right now, I have 2 boxes of 325 gr Deep Curls for the 475 Super Short, open box, but still full. So I have not got to those yet--I don't think?

Sure, if you want to look at the 400 gr version send a pack of 10, and I will put them thru a 475 B&M.
Have a velocity goal in mind?

OK I found it--I tested the Gold Dot versions in the 475 Super Short only. Both of which did better at these velocities than the Hornady version. I will work in the 325 Deep Curls soon as I can.






Hammell

In 45/70, I would load that 300 North Fork up to velocity, and if you can get 200-2100 fps, Nothing in North America would be safe within 50 yards--Big Bears included! Excellent trauma for a conventional. You would not be "UnderGunned" by any stretch.

Remember folks, there is nothing wrong with backup shots after the first round. Never stop shooting until the problem is solved completely, and then shoot again! I have done a lot of field work with 45/70, back 10 + years ago. I know we have far better bullets now, than what I had to work with, and this also makes a hell of a difference (How do we enhance any cartridge? With the Bullet!) but in my mind from the old days, 45/70 is still rather marginal on larger critters. Today if I were leaving on a bear trip, with a lever gun, I might run a couple of these 300 North Forks up front, and back them with a couple of 325 #13 Solids, and keep shooting! Let your taxidermist worry about the extra holes!

Michael

Thanks MM
There is no reason to test deep curls separately in this case. The only difference between deep curl and gold dot .475 is the name on the box.

I am surprised the 400s lost that weight. I can drive them over 2400 in the 470 Accrel. They hit piggies hard

Jeffe, no worries, no thanks needed. I liked the 325 pretty good, makes an excellent general purpose bullet for the 475 Super Short. Held up very well, and would be an excellent deer/pig poker.

I imagine that poking pigs with the 400 at impact velocities of 2250 say at 50-70 yds or so would turn them inside out no doubt. Bullet seems to fold in on itself a bit, unless it was a big pig I doubt you have recovered any from straight broadsides?

M

Some questions about the #13 .429 325gn on smaller game.

On deer & smaller game does this bullet tear up a lot of
meat if started with a MV of about 2450fps especially if
shot at shortish range say 30 to 50 yds?

What is the lower end velocity wise that it will
perform well at?

If say it was started out at 2000-2100 FPS for example.
Not for Buff but PG some what close.

Just wondering.
y
A 350gn #13 FN would work pretty nicely on PG sized game when
started at 2350fps or so, I would think.

The cast bullet shooters do a lot of hunting using a fairly wide
FN bullet, with good success.

I was just thinking on smaller game the #13 FN would be pretty good killer & easy
on the meat.

Anyway, just wondering.

The damage pattern is great for heart/lung shots where you would not lose any meat worth eating.
If the vitals are turned to mush it seems the animal can't run past 50 yards. Is not the purpose of a good clean kill to harvest the animal quickly with minimal run off distance? Shooting the shoulders impare the animal from running but taking out the heart and lungs with these bullets seem to do a great job. With a non dangerous animal why shoot the shoulders with these non cons and Raptors?

Ok, that makes sense.

I just wasn't sure if the NonCon was a practical
smaller game bullet also.
Not as in can it kill but do more damage than wanted.

But as you point out a behind the shoulder heart/lung
shoot would anchor it well & quickly.

The NonCon bullets kind of make one rethink some
things because of the performance & way theses things
work. It's a good thing, but things have to be evaluated
a bit differently.

For example SD! The NonCons have changed the way we look at
SD with these bullets.

I mean who would have a 350gn .458 bullet would perform like
what a NonCon can do? Pretty impressive!

Cheers, Allen

Boomie,
You've killed a couple pigs with the 400 gr .475 gold dot/deep curl!

MM, i've never recovered one .. ever ... boom, thud

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Boomie,
You've killed a couple pigs with the 400 gr .475 gold dot/deep curl!

MM, i've never recovered one .. ever ... boom, thud

Yes!
I'll never forget that. Lobbed out at 2,400 FPS. Farthest shot was 100 yards and dang it if it did not do about 2 1/2 feet of penetration on that 100 yard shot and the guts come out the other side. Best shot of my life that piggie made that mistake of taking a right turn on the ridge instead or going over it. Bang flop!
Good times I'll never forget.

Michael

is there any chance that one day you may be able test the heavier bullets .585" .620" as well and not just the little stuff?

Thanks
Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Michael

is there any chance that one day you may be able test the heavier bullets .585" .620" as well and not just the little stuff?

Thanks
Pyzda

Pyzda

Been there, done it, got the T. Not sure where that is in this thread, way back, but have tested .585 and .620 plenty. Have to go in search of, it's here.

Michael