Boomy

Chill pill, son, chill pill



A pewter 45?????????????

A Very Happy and Safe Thanksgiving to all here.

Regards

just got some 400 pcs of 300 grs .458" Raptors and .375" 230 grs Raptors.. Question is: How to fit the Talon Tip into the bullet (easiest way I mean.. )???

buffalo,

Congratulations on your acquisition.

I turned a plastic loading block over and used the holes on the backside of it, which were perfect for the .500-caliber Raptor tips.

They are good for the .375-caliber Raptor tips also.

If you don't have one of those plastic RCBS loading blocks, just drill appropriate size hole in a block of wood.
Stand the Raptor tip point down in the hole.
Manually press the hollowpoint of the bullet down onto the base of the Raptor tip.
It will pleasingly snap into place.
Done.

Buffalo,

let us know about your tests and accuracy with the shortthroat 500 AccR when you get a chance.

Of course Tanzan..... Gunsmith Hatting just busy, so 500 not finished yet... But I am looking forward to it....

Thanks Ron.... Will try that...

Boomy maybe not 85 gr pewter .452 bullets, but I sure like to see some .429 non con style bullets that fracture at 1700

Even to satisfy Doc M a .452 for the 45 colt lever guns! or a 454

Even a hollow base filled with lead to keep the OAL to a min. and not take up case capacity

Ok I can Dream....

Sitting in calagary airport waiting on ticket counter to open up. I just shot a nice mule deer, 192, using CEB 145 gr raptors in my 300 win mag. Bullets travel at 3273. Shot was 470 yards at a deer climbing other side of canyon angled just a bit. My shot was a bit to the right and hit him in the neck. He ran 50 yds to the top and died. Went through about 15" of neck muscle, 3 exit holes, 1 bullet and 2 petals. Tremendous exit hole and blood trail. Will post pics upon return. Do you want them here or in a different forum since it is rat gun?

Right here Brent! All terminals here.

Safe travels buddy.

M

Yes, the pictures help us all.

BTW, how do you dope the wind in a 470 yard shot across a canyon?

That shot sounds like quite the feat. Bravo.
Question about your choice of the 145 over the 130? Was it the extra BC or SD or both over higher FPS?

While we wait for Brent and photos, and bullet report let's take a look at the buffalo shot with the 400 gr BBW#13 Solid, and a Marlin Guide Gun. I loaded these for this fellow, Sam. Running around 1875 fps in my guide guns here, assume they are close to that in his. Here is the buff and the comments;

quote:

Michael,

Your BBW#13 solids worked very well.
Andrew said "he couldn't believe that my little gun killed that Buffalo".

I had a 50 yd. shot and hit him in the heart.
The bullet passed through and he went 30 yds., did a somersalt (head over heals) and lied there.

Great Brent! I knew the 45-70 with a #13 could handle the job.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Great Brent! I knew the 45-70 with a #13 could handle the job.

Sam

Sam

That is not Brent, this fellows name is Sam as well. Friend of Lou's.

M

Great shot Sam2!
Great choice of bullet!
I'm curious about the terminal performance (other than the deadness lol) So the bullet exited? (Not shocking)
Question about choice of solid over non con for first shot. Were you concerned about penetration over damage? Would a 325 grain non con be the best choice for a first shot on buff over a 400 BBW13 solid?
This might inspire more guide gun safari's :-)

Boomy

I actually did the choosing here. Why did I choose the 400 BBW#13 Only?

Sam is not a shooter. He also lives in Arizona, so I don't have hands on direct contact.

I sent Sam 4 different loads to try in his Guide Gun. 325 North Fork and 375 BBW#13 NonCon, 325 BBW#13 Solid and 400 BBW#13 Solid. From that, you should see what I was after, matching up two loads, trauma producing bullet 1st round, followed by the solid.

A few weeks later received remaining loads back, and a note stating that the 400 BBW#13 Solid shot best in his rifle. He also sent targets. Groups at 50 yards were basically the same. The problem was both 325 loads shot about 4 inches higher than the 400 #13 Solids. North Fork and 325 #13 same POI. He never even shot the 375 NonCons.

So, this left me with worrying over trying to explain to him the 325s would do better, but would have to sight the rifle in for them, which might have and could have run into issues, and not having hands on this situation, I thought it best to leave things alone, let him use the 400 BBW#13 Solid, it was shooting POA/POI for him. I knew he had to do nothing to the sights, and I knew he would have enough penetration from any angle, or even a bad shot. I left it at that.

I did the bullet choosing, based on my shooters abilities, based on his knowledge and capabilities, and based on I did not have my hands on him or the rifle to sort perhaps a better solution out. As it stands, I don't think I made a bad choice. Shooter had no problems to contend with, only one bullet to contend with, and hit his buffalo perfectly, and it was dead, down and out in 30 yards.

Yes, I do think there might have been better solutions, but I can't say any would have been any better than what this solution produced? Bullet did exit, no recovery. From what I was told by Lou, buffalo showed serious reactions to taking the bullet, and trauma was very good.

Michael

These are the pics of teh mule deer I shot with my 300 win mag using a 145 ceb raptor traveling at 3273. shot was 470 yards and hit a bit to the right due to wind drift, or just poor shooting. the bullet penetrated appx 15" of flesh. It may be hard to see on the photo but there were 3 petals that had full penetration. they were very close to the core of the bullet. These was thru all muscle and not lung, so it appears the petals did not separate as far as in lung tissue

Brent-

A beautiful example of a mature Mule Deer. That's why I never got excited about hunting a White Tail. Out west is best. Congrats.

Awesome deer!
Some elk were cross breeding there it seems
Seems the shooter and bullet were up to the job. Well done.

Brent?
Man, it looks COLD!!!!!!!

That is a BIG Deer! I believe I would have wanted more gun--LOL!

Congratulations on a successful hunt Pal!

How about Paul? Did he do anything?

Michael

And now we shall all turn to page 265 :-)

Booms, i chose the 145 raptor over the 130 because that is what Dan suggested. I had planned on the 130's because i love speed. These did the job. I did find it interesting that the petals were so close after going thru all that flesh. There was no bone hit, but i obviously cut some artery as the blood was everywhere.
My buddy paul was also hunting and shot a nontypical with a third main beam. He also was at a distance, 498. He was shooting a 7wsm with 130 raptors. He spines his deer and it fell down and then finished it off. The bullet was recovered. It had blown off the petals and was just a core.
I was very impressed with the raptors and see n o reason to go back to barnes.

Yes the 7 projectiles of the Raptor are more lethal it seems than the Barnes. Glad both weights worked well at that distance. I am curious of the impact velocity of both weights at that distance. These do love velocity! The smaller you go in bore size the less of a spread it seems so that is a factor to consider if you have a choice of diameter. What was the spread pattern distance at 16" of penetration of muscle? I'm guessing a lung shot would have given less resistance to petal spread. When the test of try paper was done there was little spread so it seems the media or game resistance dictates pattern a bit. I like the Raptors for heart lung shots to do the damage it does best to vitals.

Day Dreaming time. Look at these photographs:

http://siwild.si.edu/

Greetings,
I shoot a 458 Lott and I have a question.
With the CEB 470gr hollow point, at 2270 fps muzzle
velocity, what
is the performance in the newspaper test medium?
This heavyweight bullet interests me because it may
be good for follow up shots on buffalo (if there
is ample penetration).

Sincerely,
Mike

quote:

Greetings,
I shoot a 458 Lott and I have a question.
With the CEB 470gr hollow point, at 2270 fps muzzle
velocity, what
is the performance in the newspaper test medium?
This heavyweight bullet interests me because it may
be good for follow up shots on buffalo (if there
is ample penetration).

Sincerely,
Mike

mpsavela-- Mike

First, Welcome to AR and we are happy to have you!

The 470 #13 HP NonCon you mention is the match to the 500 BBW#13 Solid, in .458 caliber. Dan and CEB did this one on their own, and pretty much for 458 Lott and up. I had slated these two bullets to be done, but when I tested the 480/450 combination, I decided there was really no use for the 500/470, even in 458 Lott and cartridges with even larger capacities. In light of that, I have not actually tested the 500/470s, and don't have any.

As for what they will do in the test medium, you can look for somewhere 28-30 inches Plus! The 450 #13 NonCon will do 28+ and the 420 not far behind. Perspective, 500 Swift A Frame at 2270 does 22-24 inches. Everything else in comparison is less than that, running from 18-20 inches for most conventionals I have tested here.

You should be using any of the NonCons as a First Strike, First Shot Option--Not followup only! The NonCons produce more trauma, more damage, more penetration, more destroyed tissue, than any bullet that has ever entered a buffalo. Nothing on the planet can compare with the trauma inflicted, and tissue destroyed. You get one of these in the front end of a buffalo, the story is over at that point. He may still go, but it won't be far. Between Cape and Australian buffalo now I have either shot or witnessed somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 + buffalo that have taken NonCons, they are absolutely deadly and final. More so than anything I have ever witnessed.

As for followup? Damn, I still have not 100% decided, I am old school, still believe in a good solid for followup on buffalo. But with the NonCons they have thrown me for a loop! Sometimes I use a solid below the first NonCon. Sometimes two NonCons, then a Solid. Sometimes just all NonCons! So you see, I am in the wind on this myself! I have done all, and still can't decide 100%! A NonCon is the ONLY bullet I would consider not having to backup with a good solid for buffalo. Most of the time the dance is over before the second or third shot is attempted. OF course, always, always, always "Pay the Insurance!"

Hope that helps some.

Again, Huge Welcome from all of us here!
Michael

michael458,
Thanks for the warm welcome, and your reply was most helpful.
I should have stated in my first post that I intend to use
the same load for the first and subsequent shots.

I am a recent convert to the non-con world because of the
devastating performance of the .375 230gr Raptor.
I know that you dislike this caliber but it is splendid
whitetail medicine. With a calculated impact velocity of
2963 fps, this bullet turned half the heart to jello and broke
the liver in two (and left a a nice 2 1/2" star pattern
on it from the petals). It exited after 18" of penetration
and died where it stood.
Granted this was a .375 vs whitetail contest and the deer
would have been killed with the cheapest projectile. But,
after using 300gr Swift AFrames exclusively since 1987, I
Had no idea that terminal performance could improve this much.

-Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mpsavela:
michael458,
Thanks for the warm welcome, and your reply was most helpful.
I should have stated in my first post that I intend to use
the same load for the first and subsequent shots.

I am a recent convert to the non-con world because of the
devastating performance of the .375 230gr Raptor.
I know that you dislike this caliber but it is splendid
whitetail medicine. With a calculated impact velocity of
2963 fps, this bullet turned half the heart to jello and broke
the liver in two (and left a a nice 2 1/2" star pattern
on it from the petals). It exited after 18" of penetration
and died where it stood.
Granted this was a .375 vs whitetail contest and the deer
would have been killed with the cheapest projectile. But,
after using 300gr Swift AFrames exclusively since 1987, I
Had no idea that terminal performance could improve this much.

-Mike

Welcome Mike.
Where did you learn about these bullets?
Awesome report!
Do you have any pics?
Raptors and non cons love velocity.

Hello Boom Stick,
I learned about non con bullets on this forum.
While surfing the web, looking for 458 Lott data,
I stumbled upon this thread and after reading through
the 200+ pages I was convinced that I should try
something new.
I wish I had taken pictures but it was pretty
dark by the time I gutted the deer.

quote:

Originally posted by mpsavela:
michael458,
Thanks for the warm welcome, and your reply was most helpful.
I should have stated in my first post that I intend to use
the same load for the first and subsequent shots.

I am a recent convert to the non-con world because of the
devastating performance of the .375 230gr Raptor.
I know that you dislike this caliber but it is splendid
whitetail medicine. With a calculated impact velocity of
2963 fps, this bullet turned half the heart to jello and broke
the liver in two (and left a a nice 2 1/2" star pattern
on it from the petals). It exited after 18" of penetration
and died where it stood.
Granted this was a .375 vs whitetail contest and the deer
would have been killed with the cheapest projectile. But,
after using 300gr Swift AFrames exclusively since 1987, I
Had no idea that terminal performance could improve this much.

-Mike

Mike
We are glad to have you, and no thanks needed! Excellent that you intend to use a NonCon up front, and as you can see, even I am undecided on buffalo now as to use NonCon as second, or solid? I have done both with success. The only thing, I don't know if you can drive a NoNCon dead all the way up from a rear shot 100% of the time, thus the #13 Solid will do so. Angled shots, NonCon, no problem. But that dead on from the rear is a lot to ask, although many times they can do it.

I knew when doing the first test work on the NonCons that they seemed to be absolutely wicked, destroyed a great deal of test medium. I knew they had to have something close to this same behavior in animal tissue as well. But not even I could have predicted just how deadly, and how awesome these things would be in every caliber even from .224 right on to .620. In every single caliber they out performed, out penetrated, and induced more trauma than any competing bullet I had ever worked with. No conventional can come close within caliber. Wicked! Your story is the same, I have been hearing it for well over a year now, and I have been seeing a lot of it first hand as well.

In fact, I have stated here, but will do so again. Next buffalo hunt I go on I am even going lighter in caliber. At one time I was afraid 420 was too light in 458! Until I recovered one on the other side of a stomach from a frontal heart shot on a buffalo, and have never recovered anymore. I have seen 335 .500s exit buffalo, 320 .474s exit buffalo in the Super Shorts. Next buff shoot I go on I will be using light for caliber NonCons, and add that velocity for even more trauma and tissue destruction, and not sacrifice that for penetration. For this I will probably back them with matching BBW#13 SOlids.

Good to have you again!

Michael

Mike-

Welcome aboard!

I've killed two elephant with the 480gr BBW#13 solids. One with my .458Lott in 2011 and the second with my 458B&M in 2012. Both worked as expected. BTW, I've now sold both of my 458Lott rifles in lieu of the 458B&M.

I also shot the 450gr NonCons from both rifles and they shot to the same POI as the solids. This is a tremendous advantage. I really never felt the heavier 500gr solid could have performed any better than the 480gr did.

I would not hesitate to use only NonCons on Buff; in fact, for some years now, the premium softs have been all that is required for Buff. While the NonCon is not a soft, it is superior to any soft on the market and will deliver all that is needed on Buff. Beau used only NonCons from a .416Rem on Buff this year and made a frontal heart one shot kill. The insides of the Buff were a mess, as the NonCon did what they were designed by Michael to do.

We just completed a hunt in Zim. Short story the Omay was great. I will post a full hunt report.

Without going in to details as to why,I used some first generation CEB copper NonCons on my buffalo. You be the judge. BTW one shot anchored it from my 470 Nitro.



Shoulder




Entrance in the rib cage



The remains of part of the spine.

Looks like that buff had a rough day.
Congrats!

Mike

Huge Congratulations! Wow! That really looks like a MESS! I thought you were going to be gone a month? Has it already been a month since we talked???? Not possible!

Anyway, guys, this is the first official run of BBW#13 NonCons that Mike used. They were only done in 474 caliber, and I think weighed 470 grs?? Won't swear to that. Everything was settled on the bands 3+1 at this time, and I had the cavity shallow, I think .300 inches deep, as compared to .400 on the brass NonCons. The reason, I thought we could get a shear with copper like we do brass, if the blades were shorter. Copper, malleable, longer blades would have peeled like a banana before shearing, and would not have sheared evenly. Shorter blades, can't peel, so they have to shear. It worked, was lucky, first time out. Mike now is the only one I know of that has used them in the field, seems they did pretty damn good as well.

I told Mike, that when we changed to brass, everything has been so busy with different calibers, raptors, this, that, the other, that the copper was never come back up again. Sometime in the future, I would like to re-visit the "Copper NonCon" and learn more, and see what other things might be tweaked, or done with it. While I think we have a good solution for a buffalo bullet with the 3 blade 9.3 and 375 NOnCons, Copper might be a place to look for a possible improvement for the "rat guns".

Job well done Mike---How about the rest? Go all that way to shoot 1 buffalo??? Don't be holding out on us!

Michael

Mike

One more question--as we spoke before you leaving, we talked about the blades on the copper bullet shearing much further inside the test medium you were working with. In the buffalo, were you able to see about how deep the bullet penetrated before the bullet started shear?

Curious--I know its extremely difficult at times to determine these things.

Michael

Michael,

The picture with the cigarette butt is the exit of the shoulder. The shot was high on the shoulder and the buff was lying down. The void of solid tissue between the upper shoulder and body allowed the bullet to open significantly as seen the next photo.

I shot the buffalo just before dark after a long day of tracking including a climb of over 1000 ft in 100 degree weather. We left the buffalo there overnight and with some local help cut it apart and hauled it out the next day. The meat was divided between the locals so a good post mortem inspection was difficult.




I also shot an elephant. The North Fork solid we recovered traveled through about four feet of elephant, entering a little high in the head on the left. She was slightly quartering and the bullet stopped against the hide just to the right of center of the back. It knocked her down but it took several more to keep her down. The Omay being a communal area comes with plenty of local help salvaging an elephant. There was no way I was sticking my hand anywhere near those knives and damos. The bullet could be loaded and fied again.



Bullet hole on left (elephant's right)




The bullet stopped at the traumatized area about one foot to the left of the skinner's right hand.

We are still in Bulawayo. Headed to Hwange and Vic Falls next.

Katherine also shot a buffalo cow. It was so old it had lost almost all of its teeth. It was a good fun hunt. She shot it facing us at about 80 yards, it ran about 100 meters, she went on the follow up and shot it offhand at about 30 yards, put it down, and fired on more insurance shot all on her own she was very excited.

She shot it with my 10 pound CZ 375 H&H with the 25" barrel with loaded down 260 grain Nosler Partitions. Michael where did you go? Are you OK buddy?

Mike

Post mortems are sometimes nearly impossible in the field- I know all too well, I have missed doing many proper ones because of many factors. Its very difficult. That bullet most certainly performed well as it appears. We must do some more work on this copper noncon in the future.

And of course the North Fork did what it was designed to do as well. No, I am with you, been in on those elephant butcherings many times, and that is a stand back affair, get out of the way!

I got another great report via PM this morning from another "one of our own" guys. Some time back he was shooting a North Fork in his 416 Rigby, doing very well, asked my advice, and as I recall I advised him to get the new nose profile North Fork, I believe he did, and he was very successful on his elephant as well, getting over 6 ft of penetration, frontal brain shot, and the bullet traveled much of the spine and exited the top of the back. I have urged our friend to post for us in more detail. Another successful mission accomplished with another properly designed solid! As it should be!

Yes, I am with you, still in Zim--I knew you were too early to have returned! Have fun, congrats on everything accomplished! You have come a LONG WAY since you and I first met, and you advised me I spent too much time testing bullets, just go load some woodleighs and go shoot something!


Michael

quote:

Katherine also shot a buffalo cow. It was so old it had lost almost all of its teeth. It was a good fun hunt. She shot it facing us at about 80 yards, it ran about 100 meters, she went on the follow up and shot it offhand at about 30 yards, put it down, and fired on more insurance shot all on her own she was very excited.

She shot it with my 10 pound CZ 375 H&H with the 25" barrel with loaded down 260 grain Nosler Partitions. Michael where did you go? Are you OK buddy?

OMG........Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!