Michael

thanks for posting the bullets-they did wonders

Have you looked at the 416's? I am wondering about what appears to be scratching between the engraved grooves

And an edit--the velocity on the 325 gr 458 should be @2300 fps

its the 295 NC that runs 2560 in my rifle

Remnants of a grand adventure...
A few good keychain charms there!
That 458 SS and 325 CEB BBW13 is quite the power pair. That and the 295 non con and you have an ultra light and handy combo great for backpacking around bears.
I wonder if the 458 Alaskan can get 2,300 with that bullet in a 71 loaded to 2.8"

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I received the bullets that CrossL recovered on his Safari a few weeks ago. He sent some notes along, so I hope I have everything labeled correctly, and for further comment I will let Cross tell us about each one if anything needs telling.

First thing we are going to look at is a 350 BBW#13 Solid that busted the buffalos pelvis, I think, continued on to penetrate into the spine putting buff down for the count. You can see the nose took a beating, and just how some heavy bone can effect a bullet. I can tell you from the T'Rex tests done here that there are some bullets out there that would not have come out this good in this encounter, and possibly would not have continued to do the job as this one did!






I assume the first round in the buffalo being the 325 BBW#13 NonCon.



Two 350 BBW#13 Solids recovered from the elephant.



And last, but most certainly not the least, is the TEST BULLET fired from 458 B&M Super Short, 325 BBW#13 Solid in .458.




Michael

Six feet of penetration in an elephant skull from a B&M Super Short! Holy crap!

Gosh darn it Michael, did you just make every other big bore cartridge obsolete?

And an edit--the velocity on the 325 gr 458 should be @2300 fps its the 295 NC that runs 2560 in my rifle

Please Everyone, take note of that! I had the wrong velocity on the label!

quote:

Have you looked at the 416's? I am wondering about what appears to be scratching between the engraved grooves

I gave them a good look over, even used a loupe and I could not see anything?



Dave

quote:

Six feet of penetration in an elephant skull from a B&M Super Short! Holy crap!

Gosh darn it Michael, did you just make every other big bore cartridge obsolete?

A far cry from a few years ago, eh? Frame of Reference to remember, the SD of a 325 gr .458 caliber bullet is .221. SD is on the low end of the Factor List with Solid Penetration.

Not very long ago had you asked the "So Called Experts" about a .458 solid bullet with an SD of .221 for penetration, they would have laughed at you and called you an idiot!

Anyway..........

It is pretty amazing. But when you consider it, should not be a big surprise.

I have been trying to tell you guys for some time now, that the "Rule of Thumb" for Solid Penetration has been historically 30% to 35% more penetration in animal tissue than in the test medium here.





As I calculate it appears that in this case this falls right in with the RoT.

Regardless of all that, it's still amazing!

Michael

Dave

While you are still paying attention (I hope), I managed to test your Hornady's today!

I also can't for the life of me come up with where my mind was when I had you send these bullets? I received them the other day, and Dave, I have two boxes of these on the shelves!!!!! Yes, all I can recall when we spoke about these was I was thinking round nose for some reason, and the 286 Hornady never really entered my mind for some reason? Something just was not computing correct that day?

Anyway, I did get it worked out for you, I think to the right velocity.








I think this is an excellent all around bullet, keeping it to thin skinned game.

Michael

Michael:

Thank you so much for testing the 9,3s for me. They would work great for north American game in my little double.

I am still shaking my head over that little 325 grain BBW#13. Just amazing. I can't imagine what the guides must think when you show up in camp for an elephant/buffalo hunt with a sleek little rifle that shoots such tiny little cartridges. You are so right. I love my little lever guns. Will always have some but this little super short cartridge with these bullets simply eclipses the lever guns...

What's the situation with brass for the B&Ms and B&M super shorts. I need a new project and I am now starting to think that a .458 B&M super short would be just a whole bunch of fun

Dave,

I watched Michael's two boys hammer buffalo with those little tiny super shorts with little short fat hollow point bullets. Paul had just had a bad experience with a couple of 500 Nitros using softpoint bullet just prior to us getting to Australia. I think after he saw both the super shorts in action with non cons he would have much prefered it to a 500 Nitro with 600 grain softpoints. Now I used my 500 NE with 475 and 535 grain non cons and this changed his mind on the nitro. I'd take any of the B&M super shorts with the right bullets to any fight!

Sam

quote:

What's the situation with brass for the B&Ms and B&M super shorts. I need a new project and I am now starting to think that a .458 B&M super short would be just a whole bunch of fun

Trust me--it is

Dave

First--No Thanks Needed!

Second-I concur with the statement below 100%.

quote:

They would work great for north American game in my little double.

The B&M Super Shorts are the same overall length as your Marlin Guide gun. But because we can run those pressures up to 60000 PSI +, they have a lot more going for them in that dept.

Looks like in the near future we will be able to work with Jamison on head stamped brass. As for basic brass, I keep that in stock all the time for the B&M guys. Basic is just parent cartridge cut and trimmed, ready to load and shoot. I have both regular B&M and Super Short brass always. Because head stamped brass really has been such an issue, I have instructed SSK to build all my rifles with the parent cartridge listed on the barrel, example, 458 B&M Super Short/300WSM. This solves all issues with that.

All the SS have far far exceeded my original expectations, but we have worked hard this end to get the right bullets for them. The bullet does the work you know!

Speaking of Super Shorts, drop down to the B&M thread, check out Coyotes bear he just took with the 50 Super Short and the 345 BBW#13 NonCon, blades exited the far side of the bear!

Michael

quote:

I am still shaking my head over that little 325 grain BBW#13. Just amazing. I can't imagine what the guides must think when you show up in camp for an elephant/buffalo hunt with a sleek little rifle that shoots such tiny little cartridges.

Dave

I had 4 PH's talk about ordering a B&M SS. It is not my first choice for a dedicated primary for Elle or buff-but if I am walking in the bush, I feel very confidant that I could handle what-ever came up. The PH's that saw and handled it felt the same. They carry a rifle all day very day and don't have to shoot till its up close and personal hence they loved the idea of a short light rifle with lots of penetration.

I would bet dollars to donuts that i could sell two 50's and two 458s in a week down in the low veld. Heck if you weren't in a road [sendero to us Texans] you couldn't see 50 meters most of the time. I brush that thick the B&M SS REALLY shines.

Speaking of the little 458 B&M Super Short. I have been using it to do the Low Velocity Terminals with the various 458 bullets, some done many months ago, and then recently giving NE450#2 a hand with the Socom. In all these various loads I have just been using 27-30 grs of plain old 2400, giving from 1500 to 1650 fps with 400s to 300s, and like a little pop gun, a lot of fun!

NE405#2 sent some 350 Hornady RN and some 400 Speer to get some low velocity tests with. Here is how they came out.

The 350 RN Hornady did exactly what I thought is was going to do with 3 of them, nothing, no expansion at all, the RN lead flattened, making an undersized FN. Penetration was ok, but off course as you would expect. One of the Hornadys did not hold its form, and expanded some. Remember these were designed for 458 Winchester, and in that role I have tested them up to 2700 fps, they are at top end at 2400 fps impacts. Do very well down to 1600 fps.






The 400 Speer at 1517 fps impacts EXPANDED, a lot! One would not want to run this much faster as it's performance would go down hill from here at higher velocity. Of course even at this impact velocity the penetration was limited by the amount of expansion.






While I was at it I tested the 405 Remington as well. All 458 shooters have been shooting this bullet for years and years, I have, shot them by the hundreds. I used to use them to do all the test work in 458 Lott, 458 Winchester, and of late 458 B&M, when working up load data on 400 gr size bullets. Then once I would get close to the velocity I targeted, or upper ends, then I would switch to the more expensive, Swifts or other Premiums. So I have shot literally 1000s of these things. Tested them at many various velocities as well, and came to the conclusion a long time ago that one should actually start these out at 1600 fps or so for decent terminals. More than that muzzle velocity then they are going to come apart at higher impact velocity. I have had failures with these at higher velocity in the field. Keep the velocity low, 1600 fps or less, then this is a decent bullet terminally. They are extremely accurate at any velocity! I never seen a rifle that would not shoot these accurately.






I have to admit, this Low Velocity testing is pretty fun, its relatively easy too. Shooting the little 458 B&M Super Short with these loads is like shooting a 22--just bigger.

Michael

Michael, do you already have info for the Rem 405 @ 2100fps?

That is my plinking load for my Lott, I did get exits (broadside) on a ~200 lb pig at about 30 yds. Thanks.

Keith

Keith

I did a lot of testing with this one over 10 yrs ago, and does not seem much has changed with it, and would not expect much of a change.

I would expect you would get exits with it, especially the core, and I am sure it is separating and going to hell. But for 200 lb pigs or even deer, I would not think it would be much of a problem, and in fact would probably be rather deadly! Bigger animals, I would not use it at that velocity.

Back in the old days, I had some field failures with it at 1800 fps and 1950 fps. One on a kudu, hit the bone in the shoulder, broke up, did not penetrate vitals, ran that bastard right out of 45/70 range too! Broken leg busted all to hell, but kept on going with 3! The other was a bear in which the bullet just went all to hell at 1950 fps. It did put him down, good thing, as I got tripped up in the dogs, running downhill to the bear, fell flat on my face and slid within a 4-5 feet of the bear face first! LOL..........

Michael

358 Caliber

I have a long history with .358 caliber rifles. At some point along the way, it became my favorite medium caliber, over 338. My very first safari in Namibia saw a 35 Whelen along for the trip, backup rifle to a 338 Winchester. Later I got my hands on a Winchester M70 in 358 STA Layne Simpsons Shooting Times Alaskan. From the Custom Shop it was a stainless/wood rifle. Absolutely superb accuracy. Damned thing would shoot any bullet you put to it. It did not take long I had a load in 358 STA that would just about cover everything with POI close and workable at 100 yds. I never pushed it hard, standard loads become a 250 Hornady Interlock at 2850 fps shooting 1.5 inches high at 100, 280 Swift A at 2650 1 inch high at 100, these two loads made an excellent combination, everything from impala to eland with these. In addition I had a 310 gr Woodleigh Soft and FMJ at 2500 fps that was dead on at 100 yds. Just in case one found himself in the bush and either had to use or had the opportunity to use the rifle for something larger. It is a great rifle I carried for many years to different places, and shot upwards of 40+ animals with it over those years with great success.

I got the 358 bug, I had a tiny little FW Win M70 in 358 Winchester, a high grade Win M70 in 35 Whelen, then another opportunity came along for a second Win M70 358 STA and I grabbed it up as well. Converted one of those Win M70s that came in 300 RUM to a big 358 Ultra. So I was heavy into 358 for a time, although I never took any of the other 358s to the field. As the B&Ms came on, and then later the 9.3 B&M, all the 358s found themselves retired. Oh yes, I looked hard at a 358 B&M, but back then the available bullets would have limited it to 200s maybe 225s because of the length, and magazine limitations of the WSM action. A 35 WSM would have done fine with up to 250 gr bullets, but that was not me and not a B&M. So 9.3 was chosen as the smallest caliber B&M for that reason. Not far off .358--just .366. And much smaller shorter rifle. So this put an end to my days in the field with 358 caliber. Recently I sold my 358 Winchester and the 35 Whelen, so this left me with the two 358 STAs and the one 358 Ultra.

Since I knew for sure I would never take to the fields again with .358, I have never pushed the issue of a 358 Raptor or 358 NonCon. My bad, as there are lot's of wonderful 358 caliber rifles in the field by others. Someone got their hands on Dan and got him to do a Raptor. Since there are many rifles out there in 35 Whelen, and similar then it was decided to go with a 175 gr ESP Raptor. Dan sent a box of these for me to give a workout, and I did. Both STAs have been in the safe for 6-7 years now, and I had the 358 Ultra out and have done a lot of work with it. So I mounted a Nikon on it, and went to work.

I did not do much load development with the 175 ESP Raptor, I looked up some old data, which the last time it was on the range for any recorded data was March of 2008. I found some loads with 93/94 gr of IMR 4350, and the rifle/cartridge seemed to be at it's best with IMR 4350, so I bumped it up to 95/IMR 4350 for the first 175 Raptors. This gave me an ok load at 3327 fps, but large spread, so I bumped it to 97/IMR 4350. This evened things out greatly with a 14 fps spread with 5 rounds and 3401 fps Talon Tip installed. Accuracy was in a hole, I don't know what the twist rate is in this rifle. But this bullet shoots no doubt. Back to the bench, load 4 of these up for Terminals.




Looking at my 358 caliber terminals, it was rather bleak to say the least. I had not tested or recorded very many, and none with the Ultra at all. In fact the only recorded data I have on 358 terminals was from many many years ago, probably over 10 yrs, and only with the 250 Hornady, 280 Swift, and the 310 Woodleighs. And back then my recorded data was not as detailed as today. It either worked ok, or it didn't.

Fortunately much of the work we did in 338 caliber would give decent comparisons to 358 caliber I believe.

From what we know about penetration and trauma inflicted this tiny little 175 gr ESP Raptor is capable of doing big jobs in the field. I dare say like most of the NonCons and Raptors far better than heavier in caliber conventionals.






Michael

Now that is very interesting. You know i am a speed freak. 3400fps is awesome. You could probably still break 3000 fps going a little over 200 gr in the bullet. The 500 mdm is built on the rum length brass correct? So is this 358 ultra the same brass as the MDM? And if so what if we went with a 9.3 MDM?

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Now that is very interesting. You know i am a speed freak. 3400fps is awesome. You could probably still break 3000 fps going a little over 200 gr in the bullet. The 500 mdm is built on the rum length brass correct? So is this 358 ultra the same brass as the MDM? And if so what if we went with a 9.3 MDM?

Brent

That would be a 9.3 Ultra----I have one of those for sale right now, Win M70, 24 inch barrel!

LOL............... Have dies too, everything!

HEH HEH...............

For You--Special Price!

Cats out o' da bag. I sent Dan a couple emails asking for a 358 Raptor.

Does this thingy have a LVSP established yet?

Do I need to come for a visit and bring an autoloading 35 Remington and an original 350 Magnum with an 18" barrel?

Say the magic words!........

Andy

.195 SD
Amazing performance!
Give that 35 Whelen some new life.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Now that is very interesting. You know i am a speed freak. 3400fps is awesome. You could probably still break 3000 fps going a little over 200 gr in the bullet. The 500 mdm is built on the rum length brass correct? So is this 358 ultra the same brass as the MDM? And if so what if we went with a 9.3 MDM?

Brent

That would be a 9.3 Ultra----I have one of those for sale right now, Win M70, 24 inch barrel!

LOL............... Have dies too, everything!

HEH HEH...............

For You--Special Price!

Well you know i can not own another 24" barrel, you have ruint me! Is the powder column too much for an19" barrel? It works in a 19" 500, of course the bore is way bigger.

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Now that is very interesting. You know i am a speed freak. 3400fps is awesome. You could probably still break 3000 fps going a little over 200 gr in the bullet. The 500 mdm is built on the rum length brass correct? So is this 358 ultra the same brass as the MDM? And if so what if we went with a 9.3 MDM?

Brent

That would be a 9.3 Ultra----I have one of those for sale right now, Win M70, 24 inch barrel!

LOL............... Have dies too, everything!

HEH HEH...............

For You--Special Price!

Well you know i can not own another 24" barrel, you have ruint me! Is the powder column too much for an19" barrel? It works in a 19" 500, of course the bore is way bigger.

How about a 20" barrel? Just ran a QL using 230gr GSC HV with 99.0gr N550 = 3019fps, 4655ft-lbs, 63796 psi, 99.74% powder burn rate, 0.971 ms Barrel Time. It'll work, just have to use faster burning powders!

quote:

How about a 20" barrel? Just ran a QL using 230gr GSC HV with 99.0gr N550 = 3019fps, 4655ft-lbs, 63796 psi, 99.74% powder burn rate, 0.971 ms Barrel Time. It'll work, just have to use faster burning powders!

I have a hacksaw! LOL................... Don't expect the cut to be straight however! Too much "Apple Pie"...........



Andy, so it was YOU that ordered up the .358s eh! HEH.........

LVSP--not yet, guessing 1600 fps or less with that Talon Tip, which does have an HP in it. This lowers the LVSP by 50-100 fps, so it may be less than 1600 fps would be my guess. And, you would be welcomed anytime here! I will look at getting a LVSP next week.

In the meantime I am a bit behind on some terminals. I have a couple to do for Layne Simpson. Layne is still all over the 50 B&M Alaskan, and has gone so far as to size down a couple of .510 bullets to try, first a 450 Swift A and a 500 Woodleigh, both in .510 he squeezed down to .500. Then received a package yesterday all the way from Australia, in which our buddy Rhodes needs a couple of 9.3s tested. So we are going to work on these first of the week and see what we do. I am shot out of ready test medium now, and will make up a couple of new boxes this morning to get ready for these tests.

Michael

OH, and on top of that I have a pile of NEW bullets that are on the way, all of which have to be put in the box.

416-300 gr BBW#13 NonCon, flat base, bands forward, seat deep, Talon Tipped, work in the magazine!

458-250 gr BBW#13 NonCon, Lever Gun Flat Base, bands forward, seat deep, Talon Tip, work in the magazine.

.500--450 gr BBW#13 Solid.

.500--400 gr North Fork Premium Bonded!

.458--300 gr North Fork Premium Bonded.

So we will be in test mode for the next couple of weeks or more.

Michael

How you gonna load for LVSP with the Ultra case? Fill it with Trailboss?

OMG!
That 250 from a 45-70 will be awesome under 150 yards.
I wonder how fast you can get those out of a 45-70.
Might need to do some hunting with that bullet from my guide gun.
Now what can that do out of the super short, 458 Socom, 458 B&M, win mag, Lott ect.

Michael:

I have been working with the 400 grain BBW#13s in my 450 Marlin. Now, there is a big caveat here. These loads were fired in a Browing BLR and not a Marlin lever action. They probably exceed 40,000 psi and may not be safe in a Marlin so proceed with extreme caution!.

The first load that I tried was a Hornady case, Winchester large rifle primer, a 400 grain BBW#13 and 45.5 grains of AA 1680. That load gave me an average of only 1781 fps out of the Browning's 20 inch barrel with an extreme spread of 38 fps. I bumped the load up to 47.5 grains of AA 1680 and got an average of 1887 fps with an extreme spread of 22 fps. Now that, my friend, would be one hell of a hunting load!

I am also trying to work up a load with the Barnes Busters. I had previously tried a Hornady case, Winchester large rifle primer, a 400 grain Buster and 52.5 grains of Accurate 2230. That load was running at 1830 fps with an extreme spread of only six feet per second. I wanted to see if I could get a bit more velocity so I bumped that load up to 53.5 grains of AA 2230 and got an average of 1887 fps with and extreme spread of 22 fps. Again, I think this would also be a kick ass hunting load.

One loading tip here. When loading the BBW#13s, be careful to trim your cases to at least 2.090. and perhaps a bit more. When loaded and crimped behind the top cannelure, the slightly exceed max OAL but they worked in my magazine and my gun.

Michael, most guys scoff at the notion of a 45/70 or a 450 Marlin as a dangerous game cartridge. However, with these bullets plus the Woodeigh Hydro at these velocities, I can't see why they wouldn't give superb, pass through performance on lion, buffalo, and hippo. What say you?

I wish North Fork would give us 45/70 and 450 Marlin guys a 400 grain cup point solid.

I too had asked for a .358 for my 35 Whelen Imp. Didn't see it listed on their web page yet though.

Good things come to those who wait.

C'mon page 260!!!! :-)

Biebs-

you nailed it

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

I have been working with the 400 grain BBW#13s in my 450 Marlin. Now, there is a big caveat here. These loads were fired in a Browing BLR and not a Marlin lever action. They probably exceed 40,000 psi and may not be safe in a Marlin so proceed with extreme caution!.

The first load that I tried was a Hornady case, Winchester large rifle primer, a 400 grain BBW#13 and 45.5 grains of AA 1680. That load gave me an average of only 1781 fps out of the Browning's 20 inch barrel with an extreme spread of 38 fps. I bumped the load up to 47.5 grains of AA 1680 and got an average of 1887 fps with an extreme spread of 22 fps. Now that, my friend, would be one hell of a hunting load!

I am also trying to work up a load with the Barnes Busters. I had previously tried a Hornady case, Winchester large rifle primer, a 400 grain Buster and 52.5 grains of Accurate 2230. That load was running at 1830 fps with an extreme spread of only six feet per second. I wanted to see if I could get a bit more velocity so I bumped that load up to 53.5 grains of AA 2230 and got an average of 1887 fps with and extreme spread of 22 fps. Again, I think this would also be a kick ass hunting load.

One loading tip here. When loading the BBW#13s, be careful to trim your cases to at least 2.090. and perhaps a bit more. When loaded and crimped behind the top cannelure, the slightly exceed max OAL but they worked in my magazine and my gun.

Michael, most guys scoff at the notion of a 45/70 or a 450 Marlin as a dangerous game cartridge. However, with these bullets plus the Woodeigh Hydro at these velocities, I can't see why they wouldn't give superb, pass through performance on lion, buffalo, and hippo. What say you?

I wish North Fork would give us 45/70 and 450 Marlin guys a 400 grain cup point solid.

Dave

I have not run 45/70 on the powders you are using, AA2230 or AA1680. I have been stuck on RL 7 for many years. Last year, 2011, I gave the 400 BBW#13s a bit of a workout actually in one of my Marlins. I do not know the exact pressures, as I was not using the trace system, but with 49/RL 7 was running the 400 #13 Solid at 1932 fps in this particular rifle. Marlins are pretty decent about talking to you, most of the time they let you know pretty quick when you go over the limits, but all Marlins are not created equal either, nor bullets. This Marlin did not want to run the 400 Barnes Buster at this, so dropped back to 48/RL 7 for 1828 fps with the buster.

At one time, I was a huge 45/70 fan, and more because of the rifle itself than the attributes of the cartridge. Back in the day before we really had these premium bullets in 45/70, it was just not impressive in the field. In the case of comparing two 458s, 45/70 and 458 Winchester, the extra velocity of the Winchester made one hell of a big difference, Night and Day, in animal reactions. 45/70 would kill, but it was very ho-hum in the transfer of trauma department.

Two things make a big difference here--Caliber and Velocity, with a proper bullet of course. We have proper bullets these days to turn the 45/70 into more than it has ever been before. But, we need penetration, and velocity to make it work.

Personally today, if I were choosing two bullets for 45/70 for buffalo, I would work with the 325 North Fork and the 325 BBW#13 Solid, both running safely at 2100 fps in an 18 inch gun. The North Fork has the penetration, and backed by the 325 #13 Solid, both having decent good velocity to inflict the trauma needed.

I think one needs to consider looking at these new bullets a bit differently, you don't always need the extra weight, as long as the penetration is there, and it is with the two mentioned above. Velocity with the 458 caliber, with these bullets is very good, and does make a difference.

I have been charged with actually doing this, and getting loads together for a fellow hunting buffalo with a 45/70. I have some issues with this, this chap is in Arizona to begin with, so it's not hands on. He is not a shooter, and he is not very knowledgable about various bullets. If it were not for me, there is no telling what he would be doing? He is going with my PH buddy ANdrew, so I am trying to keep him safe as well. I sent some of these combinations to him to try out, along with the 400 BBW#13 Solid at 1900+. He shot, but did not understand what he was doing. The 325 North Fork and 325 #13 were actually same POI at 50 yards, but 4 inches high. The 400 BBW#13 Solid was dead on with his sights. His words to me was that the 400 BBW#13 Solid shot best in his rifle! Since there was no mention of maybe one could move the sights down, I figured it best to just let him go with one bullet that I know will give all the penetration he will ever need from nearly any angle, so I did not do anything other than say fine, we will load up plenty of 400 BBW#13 Solids for your hunt. I would be somewhat concerned he might get confused. So the 400 BBW#13 Solid is the bullet for this mission. I would like to have a bit more trauma inflicted on the first shot, but I am not taking chances with this fellow.

I think the 45/70 is seeing the best days it has ever seen, with the selection of fine bullets available for it these days! There are many to choose from, the BBW#13s, North Forks, Woodleighs, Swifts, and more, and yes, if one is very careful on his choices, then you can make the 45/70 a viable option for DG, but one must consider it is still somewhat limited, and it will never be what larger capacity cartridges are.

Michael

Well, while were on the 45/70. I just got back from hunting. Got a bear and 2pt Mulie, both with the 400gr speer loaded to 1850, both critters were about 70 yards. no bullets recovered but exits showed definate expasion. On the buck, under the hide, about 3.5 x 1.5 exit. double lunged him. Did the 40ft dash with lots of blood pouring out. Dam bear fell off a 100-150ft cliff.

Went out hunting with a friend of mine the past few days. On day one we were up early (of course) , hunted all morning, spotted a dozen or so doe`s but no bucks, so we headed back for lunch, and tried our luck again for an afternoon hunt. We spotted a couple bears in a open slash mid afternoon, being opertunistic I took the closest, one on the side of the slash near a ravine, canyon. One bear still remianed 3-4 hundread yards above it. I stalked in to about 70 yards, it was very dry and bear heard me and stood up. I should have popped him then but I waited, he dropped down so I hurried along and he was closer to the ravine, canyon (you see where this is going). I was above him and had a better broadside shot but he was walking away. When he was clear with no bush I popped him, he bite at the shot and I hit him again. The bear dropped and was out of sight.... When we got to where I;d shot him we suspected the worst and were correct. Down about 100-150 feet lay my bear, He was toast. It took us about 1/2 hour just to find a way down, it was still very very steep, not a drop off like where the bear had free fell but was but steep. I took a little slide and have some good road rash to prove. It was almost dark so we took a couple a photos with buddys iphone, gutted it and went home till the next day. Up early the next day loaded with walky talkys (charged too), snatch blocks and hundreads of feet of pollysteel rope. Buddy was a champ and walked, slide down to hook up the bear in the canyon for me. I set up the rope and blocks and hooked it to my truck. Buddy gave me direction as the bear did get hung up in one spot but a little back and forth on my part and the bear was out. We hooked up the rigging again inorder to get him to the road. Again, the bear got hooked up but with a little more gas he flew over the stubborn christmas tree!! Got him loaded in the truck, took him back to buddys house, skinned him and went back out for more. Just a bunch more does in the evening, hunted right till dark, back to buddys, had a couple beers and went to sleep early. Bear average size, 250-300 ish lbs. pics of the bear are on my facebook if your a `friend`. I:ll clean up the skull and put it with the others.

Next day anothe 5am-er. Headed out for first light, we took the first spur road and drove to the end of it, saw a doe and the road ended, went back to the fork and drove just about to the end then I spotted a buck 70 yards or so infront of us. I got out and popped it, it gave a big back kick, did a little run with lots of blood gushing everywhere, 40 feet maybe? Was dead by the time we got to it. On autopty m¸y shot double lunged it, the Speer 400gr ripped ragged 1in or so hole thru both lungs and exited. Dragged him out, said goodbye to buddy, got the bear and deer unloaded, skinned the buck (2pt mulie 200lbs) about to fall asleep as I write this.

I;ll work on the pics later. Great hunt, very happy. The speer 400gr @ 1850 sure did a good job, good killer bullet, no drt but worked well.

and i have no idea how to post pics on this forum...computers are not my strong point.

I started to "lurk" here about page 10, the best thread that I could have found and followed.


If I had to rely on magazines for information, I would still be shooting B.. H.. N.. S.. brand bullets and not know any better.

Well, I've had a few days now to recover from the drive home from another season hunting buffalo in Arnhemland and feel through my observations this season, I may have some contributions to make to this thread.

I guess I may be one of the few around to have witnessed multiple usage of the BBW # 13 non-con, and solid, in multiple calibers in varying field conditions used on thick skinned (Asiatic buffalo) game.

For any who may still have any reservations I can quite confidently state they are unwarrented !

The endless testing, modifying, shooting etc etc, carried out here throughout these 260pgs by our own intrepid Dr M and Sam has resulted in what is simply the most devastating projectile it has ever been my good fortune to employ in the use against buffalo, PERIOD !

Some of my observations;
*STRAIGHT line penetration resulting on ALL of the 30 or more buffalo I have seen taken with this projectile

*MASSIVE wound channel every time, creating massive internal trauma, copious blood loss from the wounds (usually both entry AND exit) and stunning transfer of muzzle energy on impact
Blood loss from wounds (for creating a trail to follow if your ever going to need it) is FAR more substantial than from any other projectile I've ever witnessed.

*All side on shots taken with my 500 Ultra mag resulting in complete penetration as well as some in smaller calibers (some solid shanks fired in smaller calibers resulting in the shank remaining on the off-side skin)
Some full length body shots, at retreating animals, also resulting in full penetration, the ones that didn't resulted in at least 3/4 body length (of buffalo) penetration, even when directed through the gut content.

*Over-all average penetration FAR greater ( 2 - 3 times) than any other non-solid projectile I've ever used

Petals reliably spread away from the remaining solid shank, ripping and tearing creating incredible trauma, sometimes penetrating bone as large as rib bones !
(a 370gn 458 fired from a Lott into just behind the rib cage, angling away, penetrated the entire chest cavity turing it into pulp. Both the solid shank AND the petals exited the opposite side forward of the off-side shoulder in the neck flesh. Buffalo DRT !)

I have many anecdotes, I don't want to sit here and print them all out, but ofcourse you are all free to ask as much as you like about what I have experienced.

Oh and one more thing for anyone out there who has been contemplating it;
the 500 M.D.M Ultra mag, as designed by our own Doc M is simply the most efficient and emphatic buffalo cartridge/rifle platform any serious buffalo hunter could ever wish for.

BBW # 13. Projectile Par excellance !

Cheers all,

Paul.

Thanks for the information Paul – it definitely helps counter the naysayer’s comments that there is insufficient field performance information to substantiate Michael’s bullet box testing.

Paul,

Good to hear you are out of the bush. I want you to know that my trip down under was a fantastic experience and I really enjoyed hunting with you. I was very lucky to be able to tag along with Michael and his family. We sure had a lot of fun. You have a wonderful place to hunt. If someone wants to hunt big buffalo that is the place to do it.

I'm looking forward to catching up with you at DSC.

Sam

Jim, you are very welcome to any of my observations.

The C.E.B # 13 in both its non-con and solid form, when used on buffalo, is nothing short of outstanding !
The naysayers ranks will no doubt be populated by those who have yet to use them.

Sam great to hear from you.
I have been trying to e-mail, obviously they're not getting through.
I'm glad you enjoyed the trip with us, it was very hard not to, we all did.
Great company, all of you and I will cherish my memories of the hunt for a long time.

Thank-you for your very generous endorsement of our hunts, I hope we'll be doing it all again some time soon.

Looking forwards to seeing the entire crew at D.S.C.

Cheers,

Paul.

Paul,
Really enjoyed your report on the various hunts. When Brett and I come, we'll also be using the CEB bullets. Say HI to your wife for me and we hope to see both of you at DSC.
Max

G'day Max, good to hear from you, please say g'day to Brett for me.

Look forward to our annual D.S.C meet, we'll be in booth C471.

Good health and good hunting to both of you, see you in Jan,

Paul.

quote:

I started to "lurk" here about page 10, the best thread that I could have found and followed.

Not everyone feels this way! In fact, there are many out there that "Hate" this thread with a passion. So much so, that it is used with sarcasm, ugly remarks, and pure hatred. Reason? Who knows! Very recent examples of such;

Recently a thread started, with some "sarcasm" about Sub-Sonic Bullet of the Future! Our #1 man liked what he was seeing from Lehigh on this matter, at least until I told him I knew a little bit about some of these bullets and how they worked, since JD had been working with David on these for the Whispers. JD and I share a lot of info, and I have been involved in some of it. These were great, until that chap discovered I had something to do with it LOL......

quote:

Michael,
How many bullet companies do you have an interest in?

quote:

So, which companies making bullets or groups do you own an interest in or have an advisory capacity or board position.

Which of course I own no stock, no part of, get no commissions, and don't even sell bullets per say of any company. I do keep in stock bullets for all the B&Ms which we developed from both North Fork and CEB, and in the beginning of the BBW#13s I would keep in stock all the big bore bullets so folks could try out a box or two in the beginning instead of having to order 15 box minimum run. Now, that stock is almost gone, I will keep nothing here except what I use for the B&Ms and some of my other personal rifles. Same as I do brass, dies and other related B&M things.

quote:

In closing, I understand the thought behind the new bullet styles. It’s the same thought process that sees hunters buy the latest camo, barrel vibration reducers, scent blocking clothes and chewing gum, fluted barrels, and argue endlessly that a .270 short is better than a .270 WCF.

quote:

Well I guess I would expect a moderate load of BS from the bullet farmers. After all, you can't make money if I enlighten the newbies that they don't need to spend $2/bullet for the 45-70.

And just today browsing around found these thoughts;

quote:

Harry Selby is a dottering old geezer who can't be taken seriously!
Back when he was hunting, buffalo were not nearly as tough as they are today. Today, anything less than 50 caliber is just plain foolish.
Selby probably never tested bullets in media and therefore has no credibility. Geez, he probably doesn't even know what a noncom is.

quote:

Karamojo Bell killed over 1000 eles with a 7X57 and crappy bullets.

quote:

Wow...a thread on the effectiveness of the 375 H&H. Why can't we focus on important topics...like the terminal performance of latest monometal bullets.

And of course these are just the most recent, these sort of comments have been made since I joined AR in 2008, and many much worse than this. Sometimes I wonder why even bother with it!

Michael