Michael, you forgot the "thong" accusations :-)

Michael you can't fix stupid and ignorant is a decision personally made. Those of us neither stupid nor ignorant appreciate the test work that you've accomplished as well as the design and test work that led Sam and you to the BBW#13 development. Keep the faith and keep up the good work.

And least anyone forget, it is written that Bell was also known as a poacher of DG, as well as non-DG, and often on the outs with various game departments because of this activity. And other infamous 20th century hunters engaged in these same poaching activities. Yes Bell used the 7x57, as well as the 6.5MS, with FMJ bullets to kill elephants - however he was unconcerned with DRT elephants and was more than happy to recover the tusks from a rotted carcass on his return trip as have his workers hack out tusks from a fresh kill.

Also from reading Taylor, all but the ignorant were on the lookout for better performing bullets because a bullet malfunction just might cause your death.

I perceive that Taylor, Selby, and Bell would love to have the current CEB BBW#13 bullets in their cartridges - especially if they were personally paying our current costs for license and per game animal costs!

Again, you can't fix stupid and being ignorant is a personal choice.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Sometimes I wonder why even bother with it!

Michael

Michael:

There are lots of guys here who have done their own bullet testing and know just how much work it is. We very much appreciate all of your good efforts. Don't let the bastards get you down

I am going to do my level best to get down to DSC this year to meet you, Paul, Sam, Todd and Doc. Want to talk to Paul about a hunt with my boys God willing. Who knows....maybe I can even make friends with LionHunter...

Where do you guys usually stay?

Michael, what do you expect, you're on AR! Guilty until proven innocent, and then still guilty anyway :-)

Michael,

Pop and I have personally benefitted from the hard work and extensive testing you and Sam have done. I really don't give a shit about the opinions of the naysayers.

Frankly, anyone who casts bullets for handguns and had any experience on game with either Keith or SSK vs. RN profiles already knew all of this. Keith and SSK hard cast bullets were all I ever used for big game when I hunted exclusively with a 44 mag revolver.

Now, based on my own personal experience on game as well as that you and countless others have had on game, which simply and conclusivley confirmed what you have learned in the "lab", all I will ever use on game are CEB bullets. Small price to pay compared to that of the gun, the hunt and the life of the game we are hunting.

"Good enough" is not good enough for me.

Michael,
Pour a tall glass of "Grey Goose", go out to your private place, pour new bullets all over the floor, take your clothes off, roll around in the bullets, drink the Grey Goose. And most importantly...MAKE SURE NO ONE HAS A CAMERA CLOSE BY!
Remember Illegitimi Non Carborundum...don't let the bastards grind you down.

Crap, did not mean to start anything, but I would not do many of these things if it were not for you guys! Or at least worry about sharing info, I would still be doing what I do! LOL.......

I do appreciate the support as always. Just once and awhile browsing about you come across things and makes one wonder. But Jim put it spot on the money, One cannot fix Stupid, and being ignorant is a choice! Pretty much sorts it out I reckon!

We have far more to do than worry about this sort of thing, apologies!


Biebs, just wondering what color thongs for DSC this Year???? Thinking fire engine red myself! HEH........ Ya, think that will get some attention at the B&M Booth?


Dave, do come to DSC this year, like I said, Paul, Dan CEB, myself and my crew, and David Keith are all in a quad together, Sam and our buddy Mike S is coming in on the 2cd, I will be there with my boys, Mercedes, and Momma, Sean is pulling in on the 2cd (he got volunteered as a B&M Guy this year)HEH.... Paul and his lovely wife will be there, Dan and Nate and probably some more CEB crew, and yes, our buddy Lionhunter is coming, and hopefully his buddy Carl, and of course a whole pile of others from AR will be there. It's GREAT to say the least. Lot's of fun. Yes, I will sit between you and lionhunter.......LOL....of course being in the middle of you two one might get some bruises.. HEH HEH....... I am sure the two of you can make nice and find common ground. Lionhunter is a trip, he and I don't always agree, and he is as stubborn as hell, about like me! But I have to tell you, he is a very fine chap, and he has become a very good friend! Like many of my pals here, Lionhunter is a First Class Act once you get to know him. All will be fine.

We stay at the Hyatt.

I am hoping Todd and Doc make it????


Max, Right now I am on something other than the Goose! Some stuff in "Quart" jars! My boy Brent brought down 4 of those straight from Winchester! They are very tasty! Too bad, there won't be any left by the time DSC rolls around, or I would bring some! LOL....................

Thanks all!


OK< lots to think about, our boy Todd is across the pond right now and I am sure having a good time, will get reports on .577 when he returns.

I have a couple nutbags I know leaving next month sometime, one of them is the 45/70 chap, I just started loading his 400 BBW#13s today. Waiting on large bullet order with 250 of those included as I am out now. The 45/70 chap is hunting buffalo with Andrew.

Speaking of Andrew, he is back up in Zim with Corris hunting buffalo as well. He does have his 500 MDM now, and has it with him. We will see how that turns out when he returns.


Paul--Good to hear you buddy! And yes, Folks who are yet to believe need to speak to you guys if they have doubts about my observations! And that goes for most all the PHs I have heard from, I know Andrew is 100%, Sams PH is 100%, and even Sean's PH from a few weeks ago is 100%. I have yet to hear from a PH that said things just did not work. All I have heard is "I have never Seen anything like this before" LOL...................

Michael

Doc M,
I take some of the sarcastic and mocking quotes to be a great endorsement of MIB of South Carolina.
Irony is a high form of humor, and very entertaining. Whether the authors intend it or not, they are giving you high praise,
from their low perspective.
Keep up the good work.

As soon as I get the bedding worked out in the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012,
I will give it a better go with my stock of 230-grain ESP Raptors with the tip added.
Limitation to 300-grain copper monometals is an old schtick.

Have been to DSC a couple of times.
Walked into one of the earliest ones by accident in the mid 1980s, when it was much smaller.
Had a one-day visit to another one a few years ago.
Will do it again if I can, 2013, looks like all the good guys are planning to be there.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the 375 lovers and the CEB deniers.

The performance of the B&M cartridges and the CEB BBW#13 bullets in the field on game is plain for anyone with an open mind to comprehend.

Thanks to Michael, Sam and all those "believers" who have confirmed the efficacy in the bush. I switched to the CEB and B&M two years ago and haven't looked back. Two Ele and a Buff in the past 15 months.

Mike and RIP, As always, thanks don't seem to say enough!

RIP, make a plan to come visit us at DSC this year! All you guys that can do so. That's the only reason I am going, sit around with you guys, shoot the s*it, tell lies and drink beer! We gotta booth, so we got somewhere to pitch up. Bullet talk, rifle talk, cartridge talk, and that sort of thing! Same thing we do here basically, just no typing! LOL..............

Poor Sean, I hope his truck is big, as I am sending lot's of stuff for him to bring! I am very afraid he is going to be sorry I roped him into helping out! HEH.............

I think we are going to have a blast at DSC, good folks there you know, I would not go if it were not so!

Well we are right now setting up loads for some new bullets that came in today. Will spend some time tomorrow getting velocities up to speed, then might get a few terminals in as well. I have a couple that I am very interested in.

New 300 gr BBW#13 NonCon, .416 caliber. .458 250 gr BBW#13 NonCon HP, 458 B&M SS, 458 B&M, and 45/70 as well! New .500 450 #13 Solid, long nose projection. Will be working on some of these in the coming days.

Now here is the deal, if we get this little .458 250 HP in at 13-15 inches of total penetration, that will put us in a decent position for a pretty decent bullet up to most of the larger herbivores, and smaller dangerous game, such as leopard or black bear. I might want a little more bullet going with some of the extra large herbivores, eland, roan, moose maybe. We will see how it goes. Peaks my interest a good bit.

Hmmmmmm?
Michael

Michael,
I'm sitting here looking at 2 of the 460 gr CEB NonCon remnants out of my .470, noticing how much they resemble the Woodleigh Hydro's being bandied about. Cup on top and such. I haven't found the right load yet but will. 2276 fps out of my .470 to match the 2254 out of the 500 gr's. Nice design. It will definitely go to Zim with me in May.............

Those who blaze trails with tales of new heights suffer the background song of fools sitting in comphy arm chairs.

It's great to have more choices and we should embrace learning new things instead of fearing dragons of thar at the edges of maps of yet uncharted waters.

Why do some detest more options?

Most bullets will work so no need to suffer the fears of inadequacy.

quote:

Poor Sean, I hope his truck is big, as I am sending lot's of stuff for him to bring! I am very afraid he is going to be sorry I roped him into helping out! HEH.............

Heck I have a 26 ft flat bed if we need it--



We got this covered.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1661078081/p/1
Reading this makes me want to only use Non Cons and Raptors for big cats if I ever get the chance.
I like the way the seven projectiles seem to bring death sooner.

Boomy

In my recent experience-the NC still produced a one shot kill, even if performance wasn't optimal.

Thats what I call insurance!

Seemed that lion was running on adrenaline but if the lungs collapse due to seven sharp projectiles per shot at high velocity combined with the shock it transfers it might have been over quicker. The bullets that were used did not fail only fail to kill it quick enough to prevent a mauling.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1661078081/p/1
Reading this makes me want to only use Non Cons and Raptors for big cats if I ever get the chance.
I like the way the seven projectiles seem to bring death sooner.

I don't have a second of my time for shit shots, male or female, full stop.

The pictured bullets did fantastic, (showed good expansion and retained weight) but it was the first shit shot from the sticks at 50 yards on a laying lion that was the problem.

Once the adrenalin of an injured animal gets going everything else doesn't matter anymore. (The animal is virtually unstopable).

I'm pleased that everybody wants the best latest trendy silver bullet, but what about to learn how to shoot bit better. Even more so under unjustified stress conditions.


However it's great news that this hunting trip finished with funny happy ending after all.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:

I don't have a second of my time for shit shots, male or female, full stop.

The pictured bullets did fantastic, but it was the first shit shot from the sticks at 50 yards on a sitting lion that was the problem.

Once the adrenalin gets going everything else doesn't matter anymore.

I'm pleased that everybody wants the best latest trendy silver bullet, but what about to learn how to shoot bit better. Even more so under unjustified stress conditions.

Pyzda

I missed the part where the first shot was a "shit shot" as you say.

I read the following:
" The sticks went up, at the shot she jumped high in the air and spun around sounding very unhappy, the second shot went off just as she ran away from us, just grazing her doing no damage, pretty exciting stuff!! At the spot she was laying we found a chunk of lung and a surprising amount of blood. "

Do you make a habit of "braining" or "spining" the lions you shoot?

Short of either of those shots, you could very well face the same situation.

CCMDoc

Either way, if more of the shots had connected,
then the likelihood is the Lion would have died
earlier.

Better shots / shooting over Changing bullets
is the way I see it.

Ever heard the expression that a Cat has 9 Lives?

Damn sure so in this case it seems. I briefed the report, not in detail, so I might be all wet here. I see the 3 TSX at the bottom, but did not see a mention of the bullet used, so assume that it was the TSX. Perfect bullet, but maybe a little too tough for kitty, maybe a little slow. Kitty does not like velocity. And recovering 3 TSX from a kitty????? Seems a bit strange, especially if any were broadside, assuming some might have been.

With lung tissue being found from the first shot, seems there absolutely was not anything wrong with the first shot at all.

One cannot find any real fault of this or that, if anything, a little too good of a bullet for kitty, tough, and maybe a little slow coming from a double I believe. Maybe a little bit TOO QUICK of a follow up as well. I am very guilty of at least two of these myself, little too good of a bullet for kitty, and far to quick of follow up, all three times of mine. I used a 400 Swift on the 3 kittys I took, but velocity was good at 2325 fps in 458 Win. Caliber good too.

Today if I were to specifically go for kitty again, I would want caliber--.458 to .500. Light BBW#13 just as damned fast as I could safely run it. I think this gives as much trauma as you can possibly get for kitty, I don't think any other bullet made can come close to something like that. On this point I have to concur with Boomy all the way. Massive trauma up front followed by complete penetration. Those first 5-6 inches of penetration with a BBW#13 NonCon at velocity produces massive internal trauma and massive tissue damage. Blow kitty a new one!

But, always remember, Kitty has 9 lives, and will damn sure do everything to extend every single one of them to the limits!

M

Speaking of kitties and loads--

Michael, have you had a chance to run those 458 SS loads i sent?

At least mine was one shot-one dead kitty-even if we didn't know it. talk about a follow-up----

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
CCMDoc

Either way, if more of the shots had connected,
then the likelihood is the Lion would have died
earlier.

Better shots / shooting over Changing bullets
is the way I see it.

I agree with you - no substitute for good bullet placement. My post was in response to the following accusation:

"The pictured bullets did fantastic, but it was the first shit shot from the sticks at 50 yards on a sitting lion that was the problem."

Did you come to that same conclusion based on the original poster's statement regarding bloodshed and chunk of lung?

And yes bullet type, construction and behavior in game DOES matter - otherwise we would all use solids in all game and all circumstances.

Nothing wrong with choosing better bullets as they come along and yes we agree bullet placement is always paramount.

CMC

Yes, I did.


Lucky that one shot took the 4 inches off the top of the leg or whatever !

Anyway, at least he survived.

I agree that most likely was the first shot not very good even if they found rather much blood and a chunk of lung.

I have tracked some wounded Moose and deer with my tracking dogs that had left the same at the shooting spot but still had to track them for hundreds of meters and sometimes up to about 2 kilometers and still find them alive 2-3 hours after the shot.

Once I tracked a red deer hind that was hit far back in one lung and even got a bit of liver.
She was bumped by the hunter shortly after the shot and I had to track her for almost 4 kilometers the day after and found her still alive in her bed about 20 hours after the shot.

Bullet placement is the most important. And peripheral hits in the lungs is not what I would call good hits.

That said, I would clearly use a bullet that would inflict massive trauma if I should hunt a Lion.
In my experience is the new Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets great hunting bullets, specially at high speeds, but I would clearly use something else for Lion.

I have shot 4 deer so far this year with 120 grain Barnes TTSX in my 6.5-06 at 3100 fps and 3 went DRT and the last one ran 30 meters before it dropped.
Quick kills, but the trauma was far from massive.

That story has more holes in it than a wheel of Swiss cheese! I'm not sure anyone on that team belonged on any kind of DG hunt, especially not for Lion. Well, the trackers were apparently on their game, but they were the only ones.

I am running behind this week, had planned to have more terminal work done with some of the new bullets, but just can't get there, at least as quickly as I anticipated. However, I did manage to get some work in with the new 250 gr BBW#13 HP LG .458 caliber the other day. It was a day of it, as I started working up loads to get to upper ends with 458 B&M, 458 B&M Super Short, and 45/70 as well. Right now being out of the pressure trace business with both units down, I had to do it the old fashion way, case measurement, case study, and listen to what the rifle was telling me! So it takes a bit longer to get there. But I did manage to get there eventually, and in the afternoon was able to do some terminals. So, let me show you.




Starting out with the 45/70, using a Marlin Guide Gun, 18 inch barrel. This is a very well used, and probably abused rifle, the very first Guide Gun I owned, and if taking a guess I would say it has close to 1500+ rounds through it, and none of them light. It has been to Africa many times in the early part of the last decade. Damn, I could only wish back then that I would have had some of the bullets we have today--it might have been far more impressive in the field than it was. I worked the loads up 1 gr at a time from 57/RL 7 all the way to 61/RL 7-- 5 generations. Velocity was pretty spiffy for the old girl, I stopped at 61/RL 7 for 2395 fps. Another couple of 10ths and 2400 would have been busted easy, without too much undue stress. This rifle never balked at all with any of the loads. Now whether it is just well broke in and used to heavy loads or not, I don't know, only tried this in the one rifle, other rifles, might be a little much? Don't do this at Home! LOL............... Performance was very good.
Later this morning I am going to load up comparison tests done in the past with other bullets so you can compare performance direct.



Keep in mind, from this point on, the 250 #13 HP LG was seated deep and used with the Talon Tip, working in the magazines of both the Super Short and the 458 B&M.

Moving up the ladder, I worked with the 458 B&M Super Short, Win M70 WSSM action, 16 inch barrel. Using LilGun--the Super Short powder of choice, I worked from 48/LilGun to 56/Lilgun. Both 55 and 56 started giving me some wide extreme spreads which I did not like too much. Might try later to switch from 210 to 215 primers and have a look at that? At any rate velocity increased nicely at each step as I went through 6 generations of loads to get there. Ending at 2720 fps with the bullet. Not really liking the 56 gr load, I dropped back to the 55 as standard.

We know already the BBW#13 NonCon likes velocity, and these tests once again showed that same trend.




The 458 B&M I used my "Alaskan" rifle, 18 inch Stainless, black ultimate stock, 6.5 lbs. I only went through 3 generations of loads, I never really reached top end pressures, I just could not get enough H-4198 in the case. Maybe sometime I will try a different powder to get velocity up, but was willing to work with 2850 fps in the 18 inch gun.

Once again, penetration and trauma increased as impact velocity increased, no surprise with these bullets.



It's back to the range again today, and try some new things, a new 300 BBW#13 in .416, a couple of .500s in the 50 B&M Alaskan, new longer nose projection 450 #13 Solid in .500, and some RWS bullets in 9.3 caliber. What I can get done today, well we will have to see. The research continues.


Added 10/19/2012
Hope you guys catch this, I did LVSP--Low velocity shear points--with this 250 #13 HP Today. It comes to 1800 fps for positive shear. Like most of the smaller big bore #13s, just not enough ass behind the blades to push them off at 1600 or so! Needs 1800 fps to shear.

Later
Michael

My field observations... not theory or 'guess-timations' from a comfy chair, without having even used what I may freely comment on...

I have been to Africa twice, taking over 50 critters big and small. Lived and hunted in Montana for six glorious years. Caribou in Canada and Alaska. Taken small and big critters down under in Australia. Many people I am sure, have taken far more game than I. Since 1987 or so, a convinced Barnes user and spreader/sharer of the results I obtained with them.

The most awesome Barnes projectile I have ever used- the one that made me think 'Holy C--p', was the lowly 150-gr Barnes .30-30 HP with six petals. I once took some loaded for a Steyr Scout in .308 Win to Africa, because the idea of taking them above their normal .30-30 speeds intrigued me. Out of the 19" Scout I was getting almost 2,600 fps. I shot mostly warthogs (around 8 or so) and some impala. All were broadside rib-to-rib shots, at ranges of 75 to 200 yards. No shoulder blades were struck, none were spine shots. Every single one dropped dead to the shot. I had never seen anything like it before. A few years back when my wife wanted to take a bison in Texas, she used the same load on a very large cow. At 134 paces it dropped to a broadside shot, giving complete penetration through the backbone/spine. Ribs were broken on both sides. All I ever recovered in total from all the game I have ever used it on, was two or three petals, and these were found on the far side, near where the bullet base exited.

At the NRA show in 2011, while I was strolling up and down the aisles, I came across the CEB booth. Always curious, I stepped in and picked up a NonCon. The guy in the booth started talking, but I heard not a word. With my past experience using the Barnes .30-30 150 HP, I instantly knew what I was looking at, but in a bigger, better version.

In 2001 when I took my Wild West Guns Marlin .50 Alaskan to Zimbabwe, I had a friend put a .375 diameter flat point on some Barnes .520/525 RN solids (came out around 510 grains), so I could use them in the Marlin tube. I also asked him to HP one of them with a machinists countersink. The weight came out to around 375 grains or so. I did take a huge 'stink bull' giraffe with that brass HP, taking him quartering away in the short ribs, aiming for the far shoulder. The HP was recovered, and it looked like an upside-down bell. The HP nose had swelled open to about 60 caliber, but did not fracture as there were no score lines inside (like the hex HP of current CEB NonCons).

So as I stood in the CEB booth almost two years ago, I instantly knew what was going on with their NonCons. It looked like a six-point automotive socket! You can take a length of board and bend it until it breaks, but not have a guarantee where it will break. If you put a light saw cut across it, the board will break there in a somewhat controlled fashion, at the saw cut. In my hand I held a large caliber NonCon, and the light came on inside my head!

--------- We have all seen boats moving in the water. A pointy kayak or canoe, slips through gracefully, barely disturbing the water in the front, or at the trailing end. A large ship may use a round profile up front, due to its great width, disturbing the water much more than a canoe does. Ever seen a barge headed upstream??? There is great water disruption, splashing forward and throwing a great wave to the sides off the front corners, even at only 10 or 15 knots ... do you see the pattern here??? --------

Imagine the difference in disturbance between a kayak at 100 knots, and if you could, a barge at that same speed- what a show the barge would put on! Now apply that same principle, but at 20 to 30 times that speed/velocity to a projectile- which once inside has a flat, barge-like profile! Any wonder why Michael says NonCons LOVE more speed???

So once inside the rib cage of a critter, does it take any great stretch of your imagination to realize that a spire point bullet that does not open well, will behave like a kayak? Or a soft point which expands to a nice rounded mushroom shape will behave like a ship's rounded bow? Or that a NonCon's base will press on like a flat-faced barge, disrupting massive volumes of tissue throughout its penetration? THAT is why the NonCon is so very effective- and I have not even given any consideration to the contribution of tissue destruction the six petals will do.

In Australia last year, my friend and I slammed small, medium and big critters using the 255/9.3 and 275/.375 NonCons, all loaded to around 2,450 fps. Virtually all dropped to the chest shots we took. Bang-flop! Bang-flop! Bang-flop! The guide was amazed- there was no tracking required. In over 25 years of hunting, I had never seen such performance. Sure you can whack a deer with an explosive 130/.270 and they will drop to the shot... but to see the same reaction happening to things weighing, three, four or five times, eight or ten times bigger! For me it was a mindset shift of epic proportions. Initially, instead of carrying on and on about the animals reaction I was seeing... I was quiet.

I had to stop and rethink how I had been believing/thinking that all these years I was getting great performance in the field. For I now realized that was only good performance... but NonCons were truly delivering EXCEPTIONAL performance.

Accolades to Michael for his tremendous efforts to test in his shooting range, and then going out and confirming in the field, the unique performance of the CEB NonCons. His feedback to Dan has resulted in a truly exceptionally performing projectile IN THE FIELD, which is all that matters.

Yes nice rifles are 'nice' to have and hold, and scopes help you to make the shot, a cartridge serves to deliver the payload... but... THE BULLET DOES ALL THE WORK, and boy, do these ever work! A week in Australia has confirmed to me in no uncertain terms, that Dan and Michael have opened the door up to a new standard in hunting bullet performance.

I'm an NCC- a NonCon- Convert... for life!

Alasken-Oz

Alasken

Yes, I do believe you are sold on this concept, and understand how the things work as well.

Andy, Drewhenry, has a thread down stairs on the mediums about a 350, a new member came on yesterday I think and just returned from Zimbabwe using those 175 gr ESP Raptors, .358 caliber! Here is what he had to say about that;

quote:

MidgetIdjit
new member
Posted Oct 18, 2012 1:01 PM Hide Post
Just returned from Zimbabwe where I used the Raptors in my 350RM.

Using 64gr of Ramshot TAC, I'm getting ~3035 fps in my 22" model 700.

1 shot kills on everything. Kudu at 90 yards dropped in its tracks. Zebra at 215 yards took a couple steps before collapsing. (Entered just behind the left shoulder, blew the heart almost in half, and exited through the right shoulder.)

The TAC load is compressed. I'm going to experiment with a faster burning powder to see if I can avoid the compression and maybe get a bit more velocity.

Michael

Michael

was browsing the CEB website and came across the CEB ER_D176_RAPTOR. Haven't been to interested in the Raptor till now, this raptor finally got my attention-have you heard anything about it?

Thinking 338 WSM for those unmentionable spotted cats

Cross L

Alasken-Oz here...
I will be whacking critters in Australia with it in about 10 days, using a Sako .338 Win Mag. Results and loading info will be posted afterwards.

And there you go, Sean! Everyone here contributes! Really a great thread. Alasken-Oz scores!

there is more good info here--because no one has an axe to grind---just report the real results!!!!!!!

Thanks Alaskan-Oz Am looking forward to that report.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael

was browsing the CEB website and came across the CEB ER_D176_RAPTOR. Haven't been to interested in the Raptor till now, this raptor finally got my attention-have you heard anything about it?

Thinking 338 WSM for those unmentionable spotted cats

Sean

Yes, I know about it, Extended Range Raptor, I believe. Dan and I have talked, but I have not tested or seen as of yet. Not a BBW#13 Nose Profile, or rear end. Should do very well, and being brass, same concept of performance as the BBW#13s. It actually may be a better bullet type for most applications that these small bore guys might put to use? I don't know? Dan is working with them I believe right now out in Idaho trying to shoot one of those deer things!

I have 338 Raptors, both 175 and 200s. I am working on a 338 RUM for a South African brother that lives close by, and will set him up with these loads, these bullets. He will never need for anything else in that caliber.

I have two 338 WSMs, as I think you know, very neat, and both have 22 inch barrels. Yes, the ER would be a dandy for that cartridge I would think. I believe I have tested both 175 and 200 Raptors and neither come up short.

And, like the "Lion" says, everyone contributes, Alasken Oz will give us a report on how these 338s do in Australia.

Now, I am off to the range this morning, I have some 9.3 RWS to test for Rhodes, from Australia. I Need something around 2275 fps for these tests, and hope I am close to the mark for that. Rhodes, hope you are out there somewhere...............Paying Attention????????????

Later

Michael

quote:

Now, I am off to the range this morning, I have some 9.3 RWS to test for Rhodes, from Australia. I Need something around 2275 fps for these tests, and hope I am close to the mark for that. Rhodes, hope you are out there somewhere...............Paying Attention????????????

I managed to get some range work in this morning, as I had planned to do. The top priority for today was to get these RWS 9.3s tested for Rhodes. He had taken the time & Expense to send them all the way from Australia to be tested, then by damned I need to get them done for him! Even the RN FMJ! Which I quit doing some time ago because of damage to the range.

I had recently tested the Hornady 286s for Dave, 62/IMR 4320 gave me an excellent 2280 fps or so. I hit the goal on that. Rhodes was after the same velocity with these RWS, so I figured it had to be very close, but so much for "Figuring"! I missed Rhodes muzzle velocity goal, which was 2275 fps, and was only able to get 2200 fps with the same exact load I did for the Hornady. In the end, it worked out, as the 286 RWS T Mantel Soft does not need any more velocity or performance would go down substantially.

Here is what I came up with this morning.





Penetration comes up a bit short for anything of any size, but this would make an excellent deer thing and pig bullet I would think.

286 RWS V Mantel Round Nose FMJ. There is a reason I don't shoot or test any Round Nose FMJ or Solids on this range any longer. They consistently veer off course, tumble, and leave the test medium and sometimes the box itself, doing damage to the range. I was lucky this morning, while these bullets veered, tumbled, and left the test medium, they did contain in the box. One hit the side of the box after leaving the medium and tumbled down one edge. The other one hit bottom of the box, and eventually embedded itself in the bottom of the box! LOL................





And before the RN crowd starts screaming, I don't test poorly designed FN either, they can do the same thing or even worse. Neither are created equal! We know and understand completely the factors needed to make a proper designed solid.

This is it for me this weekend! Ya'll have a good weekend, and while I am still here and about, I am off the range for the weekend and just being lazy, drinking beer, playing with Momma, riding 4 wheelers with Mercedes, and might even taste some "apple Pie"

LOL

Michael

You seem to like.the apple pie.best. i am makimg another order, what should.i stock up on.

Dessert 'shine

Gotta love it

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
You seem to like.the apple pie.best. i am makimg another order, what should.i stock up on.

Apple Pie---#1 in my book! Love the other samples, but that Apple Pie is something else! So stingy with the Pie, I won't let anyone have a taste! LOL.................


M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
You seem to like.the apple pie.best. i am makimg another order, what should.i stock up on.

Apple Pie---#1 in my book! Love the other samples, but that Apple Pie is something else! So stingy with the Pie, I won't let anyone have a taste! LOL.................


M

Is that in a pie plate, or a jug??

Keith

Jug.
Apple pie a day keeps reality away.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Jug.
Apple pie a day keeps reality away.

Been there done that. Pretty good stuff.

Keith