Back to bullets.

Michael, have you tried the CEB 250nc .458, in a Lott or =. for a max speed, yet.

Keith

You've got it right, the RWS 9.3 Mantel bullet was designed as a large hog bullet in mind.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Back to bullets.

Michael, have you tried the CEB 250nc .458, in a Lott or =. for a max speed, yet.

Keith

Keith

No, have not done anything in 458 Lott or Winchester, yet. Hmmmmm? Had not really planned to do so, but would think that the 458 Lott with 24 inches of barrel would certainly top 3000 fps. With LVSP being 1800 fps impacts, this would put it to 300 yds effect shear range. OR there abouts. Would blow pigs into next week!

quote:

Is that in a pie plate, or a jug??

And to clarify this, Quart Mason Jar! Yes--Don't get any better! Big statement here, better than Grey Goose! In fact, might just be better than anything I ever put down! I have different tastes from time to time, but they never vary far from just a few types, Apple Pie has been added, and today, top of the list!



Michael

I did a test for Layne Simpson sometime last week as well. As many know, Layne is a huge fan of
the 50 B&M Alaskan, has his own Marlin. Layne tinkers like the rest of us with different things, and he has a Corbin Swage die now that takes a bullet from .510 caliber down to .500 caliber. Swift has a new A frame out in .510 caliber, for 51 Alaskan, as does Woodleigh with a 500 gr bullet. Layne experimented with taking these down to .500 for his 50 B&M Alaskan, sent enough for me to do some terminals with.

I did not have enough to work up max loads, and as it worked out did not need to do so to get an idea about performance. I picked a standard load that I use with the 500 Hornady, 58/RL 7. This load pushes the 500 Hornady at 1850 fps or so in 18 inches of barrel.




450 Swift A Frame squeezed down to .500 caliber.






Very good performance in a lever gun. But I wanted to see what happens at lower velocity, so I downloaded and had 3 more to work with.........






Basically identical performance at two widely varying velocities, which speaks well for Swift as almost always. However, it did not do any better than our current 450 gr North Fork designed for, and in .500 caliber to begin with. While the Swift Performed very good, there is no advantage to going to the trouble to get there with equal or even slightly less than equal performance the North Fork gives. I will stay with our North Fork.

Michael

Michael

Have you had a chance to run those 458 SS 295 NCs I sent yet?

500 Woodleigh Soft Swaged from .510 down to .500 caliber


In my opinion the 500 Woodleigh Soft is, well, way too soft! Woodleigh Makes a .500 caliber bullet for 500 S&W, I have tested those, and they perform in the rifles exactly like this supposedly .510 caliber rifle bullet. It expands so much at higher velocity that penetration is limited. Too much so in my opinion for many applications. Excellent thin skinned small game bullet, would knock these around into next week. But nothing of much substance.

On this first test I was using irons, and sure enough, I got two bullets in contact with each other, these are the two that went to 11 inches! My iron sight ability is pretty damned poor, I shot this test and absolutely could not see the front sight! Time for new glasses I suppose.





And we see an example of exactly what I used to say about some conventionals- Velocity is not always your friend! Downloaded the Woodleigh performed a bit better in the penetration department.






I find zero reason or justification for going to the trouble to swage this bullet down. I prefer the plain old 500 Hornady performance to this. For any application with even the Swift, we have bullets in .500 caliber already that will out perform either of these swaged down bullets from .510. I will not be looking for a swaging die.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael

Have you had a chance to run those 458 SS 295 NCs I sent yet?

No I have not run them in the terminals yet. I did however do a quick study of those
and found that all of them weighed near equal, and added up exactly to the amount of powder you were using. So each round was consistent and each had the same amount of powder. No issues there.

I took a very close look at each cavity, and there was nothing abnormal there either.

I could find no reason for any issues. So I put them sorta on the back burner, and burned some of these other pending things I had first. After speaking with Org about the situation--(Org is Cross PH with the Lion) I am, and he is, about 98-99% convinced you touched a limb or branch, throwing the bullets stability, hitting skewed.

I still have the bullets of course, loaded in your original form. I will put them in the box probably this week to confirm, and will shoot at the same or close to the same range. I am 99% sure we will find no issues with these.


M

Michael
Thanks , at least that seems to confirm that I didn't screw up my loads--

I have come to agree that It must have tipped -
that means i need to go back and get another oner to prove that the 458 295 gr NC will work on lion---

[QUOTApple Pie has been added, and today, top of the list! E] [/QUOTE]


Just be carefull with the "pie".

It gots down easy, but hits you when you stand up.

Keith

quote:

Just be carefull with the "pie".

It gots down easy, but hits you when you stand up.

Keith

I got this figured out! No Worries! Just don't stand up !

Simple as that!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Now, I am off to the range this morning, I have some 9.3 RWS to test for Rhodes, from Australia. I Need something around 2275 fps for these tests, and hope I am close to the mark for that. Rhodes, hope you are out there somewhere...............Paying Attention????????????

I managed to get some range work in this morning, as I had planned to do. The top priority for today was to get these RWS 9.3s tested for Rhodes.
Michael

Great stuff Doc M and thankyou very much. I hope these add a bit more info for your data base.

I use the soft nose on pigs here and they go through everything up to 180lb on broadside shots. Surprising after seeing the terminal test!

Oops..... humble apologies for busting up your shooting box with the solids. I did buy those many years ago with a thought to using them on Buff's. Looks like they have a mind of their own direction wise, once they get inside something :-)

Cheers Rhodes

DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:



then by damned I need to get them done for him! Even the RN FMJ! Which I quit doing some time ago because of damage to the range.



Here is what I came up with this morning.

286 RWS V Mantel Round Nose FMJ. There is a reason I don't shoot or test any Round Nose FMJ or Solids on this range any longer. They consistently veer off course, tumble, and leave the test medium and sometimes the box itself, doing damage to the range. I was lucky this morning, while these bullets veered, tumbled, and left the test medium, they did contain in the box. One hit the side of the box after leaving the medium and tumbled down one edge. The other one hit bottom of the box, and eventually embedded itself in the bottom of the box! LOL................







LOL

Michael

I knew once you had some shiney new bullets sitting on the bench in front of you that you wouldn't be able to help yourself lol :-)

Rhodes

Excellent, glad you found this and stopped by!

quote:

I use the soft nose on pigs here and they go through everything up to 180lb on broadside shots. Surprising after seeing the terminal test!

An excellent application for that bullet, and I bet it does rather well at it as well!

quote:

I knew once you had some shiney new bullets sitting on the bench in front of you that you wouldn't be able to help yourself lol :-)

And yes, you have me pretty well sorted out--No way I could stand it, I had to know! And the RN didn't really do any damage, as long as they stay in the box then it does not matter how beat up the box gets. I have had several RN go out the sides, out the top, out the bottom, hit the walls, lights, break things..............so forth.

Michael

Michael

I think that you should invest few $$ and make (or line) the entire box from 1/8" steel and have a lid on it as well.

Pyzda

Would make a nice gong for testing round nose bullets

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Michael

I think that you should invest few $$ and make (or line) the entire box from 1/8" steel and have a lid on it as well.

Pyzda

It would have to be thicker than 1/8" steel.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Michael

I think that you should invest few $$ and make (or line) the entire box from 1/8" steel and have a lid on it as well.

Pyzda

It would have to be thicker than 1/8" steel.

Not for a round nose. For those glancing blows from roundnoses on sides, bottom and top, 1/8" steel will do.
The back end of the box might need thicker steel for FN brass solids, if any attempt to contain them there is desired,
but MIB will rarely see a roundnose show up there.


http://tanganyikagame.com/index.htm

Half inch mild steel plate won't stop a 500 grain brass or bronze solid. Eigth inch is good for Red Ryder and Crossman projectiles.

quote:

Originally posted by H2CO3:
Eigth inch is good for Red Ryder and Crossman projectiles.

For the long axis sides of the box when testing BBs in wet newsprint, yes indeed, it will be good.
Wooden boards have been doing fine so far, except for the occasional gouge by a glancing round nose solid.

http://tanganyikagame.com/index.htm

Oh Yes, I've heard rumour of dangerous beasts wearing suits of armour stuffed with wetted rolls of Washington Post.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, but think I will pass on the 1/8 inch steel liner for the box. Don't do much RN any more anyway, RN are Banned here--Unless I say different! HEH......

1/8 inch liner would absolutely contain anything coming out of the medium skidding down the sides, bottom or top. Remember, these bullets have already penetrated from 12-14 inches up to max of 20-25 inches before going unstable. A lot of momentum has already been "expired", they are even tumbling at that point or sideways, so they are not hitting with full frontal force. I have had just a few go out of the box from the side, which the sides are 2X8 treated. The entire box is 2X8s, sides and bottom. The biggest issue has been many going out the top of the box, no resistance there. Back in the days when we tested all the RN, I would lay layers of thicker catalogs or bundles of dry paper on top, most of the time that stopped them with the exception of a few slipping through the cracks.

Recently I have been having some of the "Blades" from the larger bore BBW#13s exiting the top, going up 6 ft or so, and busting the hell out of my lights above the box! This has happened twice in the last few weeks. Do not tell me the blades do not move away from center!

Any sort of thin plywood to use as a top would stop that activity, and most any RN trying to go out the top, if I were tested RN again.

We are on the range most of the rest of the week. Hunting buddy and B&M guy is here this week and headed to Zim in a couple of weeks with Andrew. We are getting his 50 B&M ready with the right loads for the mission at hand, hippo--buffalo +. We are also expecting arrival of the new 400 North Fork .500 caliber Soft, and 4 boxes of the 300 gr .458. They were sent last week, via USPS, which there is no telling which "Month" they may arrive--If they arrive??? Of course, we will be looking at these bullets with some interest, and putting them through the ringer in several .500 caliber cartridges.

Michael

Report from the Field!

I think Dan has returned from Idaho on the deer thing hunt! I have not talked to him yet, but he sent a few emails with photos, which I have not got to process yet, very large format. Need to scale them down a bit. But, here is what he sent FYI.

quote:

Michael,

We did manage to kill one muley buck with an ER D176 .338 176 grain Extended Range raptor at 550 yards. It wasn’t pretty but the bullet performed excellent. The deer was laying facing away from us but on a slight up angle on the side of the mountain. It was a little peek-a-boo shot but we took it figuring to place the shot through the spine and into the chest cavity. The first shot ended up a little low right and entered the right hand hind quarter destroying it and traveling up through the guts. It only managed to roll down the hill and ended up laying broad side facing left in the open this time. On the second shot when it was laying facing left and the bullet entered through the shoulder blade blowing kind of a star pattern through it actually splitting it. Of course it was dead after that. When we pulled the shoulder off there was a 2 ½” hole blown into the chest cavity under the spine. The petals were off at that point and at least two went high through both loins severing the spine and several went into the top of the lungs along with the remaining base. We didn’t get real good photos of the exit hole but it was about the size of a quarter through the hide on the off side.

Another reminder, Todd has been in the field now for a bit, and I am not sure when he is scheduled to return, but suspect it is getting close to time. We should get some serious reports on that big 577 Nitro and the BBW#13s.

Todd, just to let you know we have not forgot about you!

Michael

Just received the latest issue of Sports Afield. They have an article on North Fork bullets Percussion Point. I didn't see anything on the NF page and haven't read the article as of yet but thought I would give a heads up.

Eric

Thanks Boom Stick. I never wandered over to that section of their site but stuck with the products pages.

Eric

I am quite sure if it comes from North Fork, it's gonna work proper! I have not had my hands on any of these Lion Bullets yet, but at some point will look into them.

Most of you know now, but Officially B&M supports only 2 bullet companies for B&M rifles/cartridges, Cutting Edge Bullets and North Fork Tech. Not that it makes much of a difference in the big world! LOL..............

FYI, there is an ongoing thread on something called the 68 Forums. Entirely about 6.8 SPC, and I really am not up on that cartridge or rifles or anything. But a chap over there has a 18 page thread going on with a 80 gr 6.8 Cutting Edge HP that Dan worked with them on I believe. They have been blowing coyotes up, and now started shooting some deer. While they don't quite 100% grasp everything, they are doing pretty well with it, and they are pretty excited about the results, and the accuracy they are getting with it. I am cutting out a few of the comments below, and will list the link at the bottom, just FYI and some interesting reading from totally independent chap working on his own. I don't think he has ever been here that I know of, and he is a small bore fellow anyway.

quote:

Here we have the first deer ever killed with the 80 grain CEB Raptor. At the risk of getting too excited about the first deer, I will only say that the accuracy is holding up, and the same thing I saw with the coyotes I killed, is holding up here. I'm really starting to like the way this bullet kills. Each time I shoot an animal, I am seeing lightning bolt DRT's, even with this body shot. That does not happen often. I shot this one with my bolt gun. I have no doubts about shooting one at 300 with this bullet.

This 110 lb doe was broadside at 205 yards. I held out for a 200+ yard shot, because this bullet needs to prove itself at longer ranges, and ultimately, with much bigger deer, and big hogs. What I saw today was more evidence that this bullet does kill very rapidly. I purposely shot the deer in the lungs, to see if it would run or not, and to get an idea of the expansion with the striking of little or no bone. The impact was easily heard, since I shot it with the suppressor on the gun....now that Texas allows this. I'm pretty damned happy about that! Anyway, the deer literally fell instantly, as if hit in the spine. It never lifted its head, or flopped, it just twitched for a second and that was it. I have been shooting deer for a long time, and I've seen them run with every caliber imaginable, when hit in the lungs. I have not seen one animal run after being hit by this 80 grain Raptor.

The entrance was nothing special....a .30 +/- caliber hole. The exit was what I had hoped for. Exactly the same I've seen with a coyote and another hog.

You can clearly see the petal sitting under the skin, and the exits created by the other secondary missiles, which were the other petals. The bulk of the bullet came out and probably had a few petals still attached. the lungs were not even worth photographing, because they were just jello. Hemorrhage, and blood, with most of the tissue destroyed. Wow.

quote:

We shot another 2 does at WRR last weekend. My client used the 80 grain Raptor from CEB, and we shot both within 5 minutes of each other. The first doe was shot in the front of the chest, in the crease between the shoulder blade and the sternum. The deer went down and skidded on its back legs about 10 feet and was dead, When we recovered the petals they were under the shoulder blade and along the right side of the rib cage, but the rest of the bullet exited after penetrating about 27 inches.

The next doe came out, and was standing broadside, so I told the client to put it in the ribs about 2-3 back from the crease. This one went down instantly, again. Now, we've killed 3 DRT, by shooting them in the lungs, and one in the frontal chest area.

I'm convinced that this bullet can kill whitetails right where they stand, and at this point, I have no trouble with 200 or even a 250 yard shot. The necropsy revealed nothing new, with petals found near both exit "zones." I call them zones because there is a blast path with multiple exits each time, and a melon-sized temporary stretch cavity with a lung shot.

And they continue on shooting even more deer later on some following pages, same results.

http://68forums.com/forums/sho...g-Edge-Raptor/page15


Just thought it might make some good reading.

Michael

These 6.8 guys had something else I stole from them, and very appropriate for our upcoming
Halloween!

Another bullet test, different sort of medium than I have used in the past, but it sure looks like something I need to check out!!!!!!!

Now you know bullets can't do that. Petals moving away from bullet chanel BS! HA HA Happy Halloween!

Happy Halloween to Terry Wieland!
He would probably think that pumpkin too scary to use as a jack-o-lantern at his front door.
Put a candle in it and light it up and he would wee-wee his pants.
Definitely a scary trick and not a treat for Terry Wee-wee-land.

I am wondering what the 82 gr ER Raptor will do in my 270 WSM . I do hear that NC's like velocity--

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
I am wondering what the 82 gr ER Raptor will do in my 270 WSM . I do hear that NC's like velocity--

I've heard that exact same Rumor!!!!!!!!!

LOL


No, Wee Wee would not comprehend the pumpkin, he would say the results are misleading!

M

The insides of that pumpkin are a good metaphor for the raptor shot animals. A 270 WSM and any of the 270 Raptors would be devastating with impact velocities around 3K. No chasing animals.

Would be fun to see some big bore pumpkin victims

That pumpkin pic really brings home the devastation caused by the BBW#13 HP design.

Exponentially more soft tissue damage compared to conventional softs.
One shot, seven sharp projectiles.
No follow up shots needed if the first is half way decent.
If I had a single shot I would want these only.

Lovit, great ad photo.

Keith

I suppose it's time to make what is becoming my annual terminals data contribution.

First up is a bullet and case that dropped a cape buffalo three weeks ago.

I approached a small heard of buffalo hidden behind some trees and bushes at about 80 yards. I watched for a few minutes but could not make out a clear shape of shot of any buffalo. I then moved up to the next closer tree at 70 yards but with similar sight pictures. The buffalo shifted about 20 yards to the left but were still well hidden. The wind was potentially unstable and from the left. Finally, at about 10-15 minutes a yound herd bull steped out far enough to be identified as a good meat target but he immediately stepped back into cover.

Here is a cropped picture showing the shot picture available. The grey spot in the middle is my hat with a piece of shadow underneath, seventy yards from the tree used as a rest. A second picture shows more of the overall scenery from which the cropped picture was taken. If you can't identify the hat and placement of the buffalo, at least you can appreciate the trickiness of calling the shot.




A minute later he poked his head out the other side and faced his neck and head directly at me. This was an open hunting area, Rungwa North, where we had been warned that buffalo may be hard to hunt at this particular season. So the choice was to take a face-shot or pass and potentially pass up any chance on a buffalo in this hunt. Well, I had a pretty stable tree-rest and my hat in my hand cradling the rifle to protect my hand and maintain zero.
Kaboom!

The forest burst out with running buffalo stage left. Approaching the clearing where the buffalo had been I saw the bull on the ground. After a half minute it tried to lift it's head/neck so we gave it a finishing shot. The first shot was under its left eye between eye and a center line. It went under the brain and was found about 2 inches off the spine on the left side of the neck near the left shoulder. Penetration had not been great but the overall effect on the animal was stunning.



The entry hole is barely visible and about two inches below the grey patch next to the left eye.

The game scout was very happy with the buffalo:



The bullet lost all of its petals and was literally smashed shorter along its column. See bullet picture below



350 grain TSX .416" at 2825 muzzle velocity, probably 2670 impact velocity.

The particular load is way over SAAMI book at 6200 footpounds, but it is really quite tame and safe for the voluminous Rigby case. Notice the picture of the smashed bullet with the 416 Rigby case and the nice rounded Federal 215 GoldMatch primer. Extraction of case was smooth and easy, of course, and without any signs of shiney brass extractor grooves on the head.
Moral of this story is to use plenty of power for marginal shots.



Well, the hunt was not over.

We hunted hard for a hartebeest or eland, though we never saw any eland. A few days later we found some hartebeest tracks crossing a path and tracked a herd of hartebeest for a kilometer plus meanderings downwind. As we reached a large dry mbuga, forest clearing, with many shrubs and bushes for resting we decided to go around to the right and approach the mbuga from upwind. Before we had gone a couple of hundred yards we saw a herd of hartebeest galloping away to our right and back in the direction that we had come from. We tracked their running footprints a straight kilometer (GPS) back to the track that the car was parked on. We went to the car for more water and heard from the driver and someone else staying with the vehicle that 11 hartebeests had crossed the path just 150 yards up ahead a few minutes earlier. We smiled and acknowledged that we were aware of their presence. Going back to the tracks we found that they had finally slowed to a walk. After a couple hundred more yards my son saw some movement 200-300 yards ahead. He and the tracker ran to the right about two hundred yards using some thicker trees and a small mound as cover, hoping to close the gap to where the hartebeest seemed to be moving. But peeking over the dirt mound they saw nothing. Walking around the mound, the tracker dropped to the ground and my son crouched down like a baseball catcher. He saw a rear-guard male hartebeest standing and facing backtracks of the herd. His sight picture was wobbly so he rocked back on his can/derreire and used a three position knee-rest. The sight picture stabilized and he was able to thread a 180 yard shot to the inside front leg of the hartebesst. I was about 200-300 yards behind but heard the kavoom echo through the forest and thought with satisfaction that I heard a distant 'thup' immediately afterward. The game scout and I ran up to where Yony and the tracker were walking toward the area of the shot. The hartebeest was down.

Here is the shot mound viewed from the animal, 185 yards (shot was 180 yards taken from the front side of the mound)



The picture of the mound was cropped from the larger view. See below



As we approached a finishing shot was given:



If you look closely, high behind the right shoulder is a bump where the bullet almost exited.

The impact was about 2435 fps with about 4600 ftlbs remaining of the 6200 ftlbs from the 2825 fps muzzle velocity. The bullet entered about mid body height inside the front left leg, hit the spine-neck junction and then changed course, aiming upwards and coming to rest behind the right shoulder and almost at the top of the body. The bullet retained 349 grains of 350 grains, with a classic mushroom. Again, the bullet is shown with the case in order to document that a load of 2825 fps is not too high pressured in a 416Rigby.



Finally, the hartebeest bullet and the buffalo bullet are shown together.



The buffalo bullet, right, retained 220 grains, only about 63% of its 350 original weight. But it dropped the buffalo in its tracks. Likewise, the hartebeest dropped in its tracks due to a direct hit on the spine (left bullet).

Lessons learned:

Use enough gun. The buffalo shot was intended to error on the low side, fearing a shot over the brain since we sight in these guns at 2" high at a100 yards. But the shot was an inch or two lower than expected. The extreme power of the exploding TSX seems to have had a nice effect on the buffalo.

The hartebeest demonstrates that an accurate gun that can be handled quickly is a first priority in hunting. On terminals we like to say that the bullet does the work, but that assumes that an accurate delivery system is in place.

Scope: 2-8 Nikon Monarch.
Rifle: CZ 550 Magnum, 416 Rigby
Bullet: 350 grain Barnes TSX
Muzzle velocity: 2825 fps
(Yes, we would like to be using some of the new 416 Raptors, but we only have bullets from 2010 currently in Tanzania.)

Couldn't ask for any better performance from the Barnes .416/350-gr TSXFB.
The weight of 350 grains, and the muzzle velocity of 2825 fps put this load in "Non-Con Category" for a .416 Rigby.
The only thing different in outcome if it had been a brass Non-con hollow point of similar weight, would be that you would most likely not have recovered the bullets.
Then you would not have had any pretty bullet pictures to show.
Going lighter and faster than traditional with the bullet from a CZ .416 Rigby is also a good idea if the twist is 16.5", since the monometal copper and brass bullets are longer for weight.

quote:

Going lighter and faster than traditional with the bullet from a CZ .416 Rigby is also a good idea if the twist is 16.5", since the monometal copper and brass bullets are longer for weight.

That was exactly our reasoning.
Plus, we like the trajectory reminiscent of a 270Win in 150 gr. or 338WM in 225 grain. Such trajectories are fully flat enough for Africa, where only 1% of shots will be 400 yards, and 2825fps handles that.

Tanzan

I'm actually quiet surprised how rounded the Fed.215 primer is for 6200fp of energy from the .416Rig..

I'm not a fan of the .416" calibres but it looks like they work OK.

Pyzda