Thanks Michael

I'll try to find it

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
Thanks Michael

I'll try to find it

Pyzda

I am sure a search will turn them up, and not all at the same time. If you don't find, let me know, I can find them in my photobucket. But damn, Photobucket has been SLOW SLOW SLOW for the last few weeks! And rather irritating to say the least.

M

As mentioned below on the B&M thread;

quote:

I am working hard on some projects here, #1 this weekend, well, this morning actually and yesterday, is with a Marlin Guide gun in 50 B&M Alaskan. Yesterday I was working getting some serious bullets up and running proper in the rifle. CrossL PH in South Africa has a Guide Gun ordered and in the works in 50 BM AK. Now I told him right up front that I did not feel that this was a day in day out, everyday backup rifle, especially for the heavies, and he would be far better suited with the 50 B&M for that purpose. However, he is HELL BENT on the little lever gun--But promises me that he understands my concerns on this matter, and does not intend to use the rifle in that capacity--very much anyway!!!! As many of you realize, when it comes to these sort of things, I do tend to be somewhat conservative. At least until I see different for myself.

I have little doubts that CrossL PH in South Africa will at some point try his 50 B&M Alaskan out on buffalo and elephant. Despite my reservations, I rather have prepared for said event, than to not.

I do consider the 50 B&M AK lever gun adequate for the task, best, no, 50 B&M would be better with it's extra velocity, but the lever gun will do it in a pinch, and may even be a bit more than just "adequate".

Here are the combinations I am looking at right now for the Solids. Remember, Add 30%-35% for animal tissue which takes these to 55 + inches, as a rule of thumb, so both are adequate for deep penetration needed on the heavies.






Both of these are good to go on buffalo, penetration is there.






All are shooting to within POI tolerances at 50 yds.

Michael

Michael

Orc is gonna love it--I tried talking him into a 50 B&M but he is stuck on the lever gun-where he hunts around the Drakonberg the brush sure is thick so he doesn't have a BAD idea, just that I like you would go with a bit more ,and probably with a M-70.

I am sure that with the new bullet tech that it will work well-sure would hate it if the guy got stomped---

He shot both the 416 and 458 SS while I was there-he like many wasnt sure at first but after
seeing what the NON CON did to zebra and wildebeast he sure became a believer.

Cross

I think Org will be fine. These bullets will do what needs to be done. And, he is not planning on using it for day in day out PH work with the heavies, or so he says anyway. But in our conversations, I have no doubt that he is going to try it out on them! LOL......... This is why my big push on some retesting of the solids and NonCons, and POI of these.

He must remember to keep his ranges short with the NonCons as the velocity bleeds off quickly at these starting velocities. Shear @ 150 yds is unlikely. 50 and in, hammer down. In the thick stuff where he is using it, I don't see a problem there. I will most likely go with the 365 NonCon, and either of the solids that give a close POI in his particular rifle. If I can keep him from getting them confused, I would like to load some of the 300s at 2350 fps for him as well, for the plains game and such.

Should have his rifle ready by DSC----

Michael

Michael

pink nail polish on the nose of the 300's??



Lelani would love it--

40.5" average straight-line penetration for a little .206 SD 375gr .510 CEB BBW#13 FN Solid bullet is pretty darn good performance!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Methinks a black marker on loaded solids can be wise move for last second visual confirmation prior to firing. Not sure what happened here but color coded bullets could be wise. Dead lion is a dead lion but this is an anomaly.

Boomy,
I'd recommend the black marker be used on the HP NonCons instead because the Talon Tips are black in color. Better yet, use either the Ogive Talon Tip if magazine space permits or the RN Talon Tip if magazine space is at a premimum.

Michael

There is a reason that I like cases with a long necks, even more so on a Big Bore magazine rifles.

Just looking at those pictures here, if the bullet is loaded and crimped after the first band it would have to be a neck length of a goose to contact the bottom band.

In other words the bottom band it is totally out off the neck.

So there are only two narrow bands holding the bullet tight in the neck.

In my opinion it is a poor design. There should be an extra band in the middle, or this band should be moved closer to the other two at the front.

Or is there any technical reason for this, that I don't know?

Pyzda

The bore diameter is much farther towards the tip compared to ogive and spitzer nose profiles allowing a bullet truing function. The base band is pretty much there to prevent gas blow by. It is a good question but how much neck tension area is needed? The ratio of needed neck tension area seems to be inverse with bore diameter. Large bores have by nature more surface area to tension on the bullet than small or medium bores. How much neck tension area is on two .458" bands compared to a full grove diameter 30 cal bullet in a 308 Win? This reminds me of the argument of headspace on a 20 thou per side shoulder VS a 12.5 thou belt on a win mag case. Both work. You can use three bands or two bands for neck tension if desired.

another factor is that these bullets were originally designed for the B&M series of cartridges-which are designed to fit the Winchester M70 WSM action. hence you have a limiting magazine length.


IE they were optimized for one particular platform.

Pyzda,

Michael had a long +caliber neck length on the original 500 MDM (full-length .375 RUM case) and changed the case design to a short neck. Why, very simple - all CEB BBW#13 DG bullets were designed for proper neck tension in the in the short-neck B&M cartridges there was no need for the long neck in the 500 MDM...and besides he prefers the look of the short-neck...

The bullets were also designed to reduce pressures and barrel strain. The close band design was for Michael's B&M line and the Nitro Express spacing was made for the long necked nitro express cartridges. We have seen no issues in either band spacing or in the wide gap between the third band and the base band. The original 2 band bullet performed great and accuracy was good also. The reason 4 bands were done was to be sure the neck tension would be sufficient.

Sam

Pyzda

There are many reasons you see the BBW#13s designed exactly as they are. In many cases, and in all the B&M cartridges I seat up to the top of the top band, or have only two bands in the neck, and no crimp at all. Neck tension, and load design is more than enough to keep the bullet from moving. There are no issues at all with that. Other big bore cartridges, can either crimp in the top groove, below the top band and they are good to go, no issues there.

A fifth band in the middle is not a good idea, and does in fact raise pressures, I am dealing with one of those tests right now in 416 B&M with a 5th band. That bullet will be discontinued.

3 bands forward--neck tension, plus guide into the bore. I found on some cartridges with only one band forward, accuracy was shit. In the beginning we tried 4 even spaced bands. Some cartridges did fine with that, others had too much bullet jump into the bore, accuracy piss poor. Moving two bands forward, one to the rear solved all of that, but in some cartridges we needed more neck tension, thus the 3 bands top. The band on the rear keeps everything lined up and also serves as a guide to drive the rear.

Bands have been throughly studied for many different things, reduce pressures, reduce barrel strain, accuracy, neck tension, and anything else one cares to think of. Adding bands is just not an option, and we have already been there, done that, and it did not produce what we wanted in the bullet.

Two things in particular have a profound effect on pressures. Weight and Bearing Surface. Two things have a profound effect on "Barrel Strain"--- Bearing surface and diameter. The BBW#13s are optimized to provide less pressure and less barrel strain by less bearing surface, without effecting accuracy or neck tension or other loading issues.

Michael

Our Own Todd Williams has returned successful on his hunt.

Full Hunting report found here;

http://forums.accuratereloadin...931027181#6931027181


Congratulations Todd!

Michael

Thanks Michael. The CEBs were the bomb!!

Great Todd! Glad you had a good trip.

Sam

Congrats!
Sounds like an amazing trip.
The 577 BBW solids extracted from the tail region is quite something.
I would love to see some comparisons made from a lighter faster Non Con in 577 say 500 vs the 700 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Thanks Michael. The CEBs were the bomb!!

I was never much of a fan of the Ultra Bores, .585 included. The terminals were never impressive, in fact they were rather weak as far as I had seen. When Sam and I played with the BBW#13s in .585, it started to really get very impressive, in fact, I did not believe it possible.

When Sam took his 577 Nitro loaded with BBW#13s, I told him that he was setting foot on the African Continent with the most Effective 577 Nitro that the Continent had ever seen! Now you follow in those footsteps. No Ultra Bore has ever been this effective before, No Ultra Bore has ever seen that much penetration. Never!

By the way, you were not forgotten over here, we were thinking about you and hoping all was well while you were gone!

Michael

I appreciate it Michael. No doubt the CEBs provided an awesome level of penetration. Blake was really impressed with the bullets.

The 9.3 really opened up nicely on the lion. I hit it with both shots in the boiler room but my autopsy skills are not as good as yours. We found 6 petals inside the vitals and they really tore up the Aorta and lungs. He rolled down the hill after taking the first shot and never moved from where he fell into the sand river.

I've got some great footage of all the shots but the video format isn't compatible with Final Cut Pro. I'll post some footage as soon as I get it converted and edited.

Thanks for putting me onto the CEB bandwagon. I really can't see any reason not to use these bullets in my doubles. Less pressure, less strain, very accurate, awesome penetration, exceptional terminal performance. Like I said, they are the Bomb!

Todd, firstly congratulations on a very memorable and successful safari.

That Lion, at least to me looks a real toad !

Secondly thank-you for posting a very netertaining and enjoyable to read hunt report, especially for those of us who need to live our African experience vicariously through the experiences of those such as yourself (whilst we save coins furiously).

Your anecdotes regarding the terminal performance of the # 13 solids and non-cons comes as no surprise to those who have used them in the field.

I have only just recieved delivery of my very first double and have no intentions of poluting the barrels with anything but # 13 non-cons and solids.

To the doubters, detractors and round-nose merchants I say; Bite-me !

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:





If I hear one giggle out of anyone of you about my tiny little minor caliber .500 I might bi%%H slap someone!!!!! Not a peep!


Michael

Michael

the only reasons that I like a long neck and plenty of neck tension is that on a cull I reload (top up) the magazine at every oportunity.

So it is likely possible that I may fire 10-15 shots and on an occassion the bottom round in the magazine may never get fired.

In my opinion a round to go for 10-15 shots while in a magazine with a recoil of 100fp+ it is not a good idea to have a case with a short neck.

For normal shooting the length of the neck is not so important.

Pyzda

Pyzda

Long neck does not make any promises of neck tension. Using common cartridges, with brass made from many manufacturers you can bet that all specs are not the same, some less, some more and anything in between. If needed a good crimp solves a lot. Even better than that, a good compressed load solves everything. All my big bore loads are compressed to one degree or another. That bottom round never gets pushed in if loaded properly.

Michael

quote:

The 9.3 really opened up nicely on the lion. I hit it with both shots in the boiler room but my autopsy skills are not as good as yours. We found 6 petals inside the vitals and they really tore up the Aorta and lungs. He rolled down the hill after taking the first shot and never moved from where he fell into the sand river.

Todd, you are blowing my "rat caliber" for lion right out of the water buddy! HEH HEH.......

Here is what I had to say about that on the other thread;

quote:

Today if I were going on this quest specific for lion, I would use my 500 MDM, 335 gr BBW#13 NonCon at 2900 fps, and destroy the damned thing on the spot. I don't want to "Kill" a lion, I want to put his dick in the dirt, on the spot, never move again, and destroy and snuff all 9 lives out at once. These things can bite you, and bite you very quickly, and it will hurt a lot, no rat calibers for me and lion.

And now, here you blow that out! Which I am pleased that all turned out well and the 9.3 hammered the lion! Big lion, rat gun! Damn good show!



How about some of the many other critters you used the 9.3 on? Animal reactions?
Curious.
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Pyzda

Long neck does not make any promises of neck tension. Using common cartridges, with brass made from many manufacturers you can bet that all specs are not the same, some less, some more and anything in between. If needed a good crimp solves a lot. Even better than that, a good compressed load solves everything. All my big bore loads are compressed to one degree or another. That bottom round never gets pushed in if loaded properly.

Michael

Michael

I agree with everything You've said, however under the same circumstances (where everything is equal) and/or marginal, the longer neck will always have an advantage.

Pyzda

Pyzda

No argument here. That is correct. This is why one never allows those other circumstances to become a factor.

I take it you found some of the early work done with the Ultra Bores. You must find some of the BBW#13 Work, which is later from your photos above.

Michael

A few Ultra Bore bullets---and the reason now the Ultra Bores deserve a reputation.

It bears saying again:

76 inches of penetration in M's medium is a true
REAR-END ELEPHANT bullet.

If Karamojo Bell were around he might figure out how to angle the bullet from the back thigh up through the body, across some space, and into the brain.

Todd Williams. What were your chrono results on the 577 solid?
The 577 test was a tad slow not even 2,000 FPS. It would be interesting for data purposes to estimate impact velocity that achieved your elephant cranium to tail penetration.

Boomie, I was getting right at 2100fps on the chrony with the 577.

Ok great!
That's about nominal for the 577.
What distance was the shot?
Assuming 2,000 FPS impact velocity that is pretty awesome performance.
To say the 577 lacks penetration only means you chose the wrong bullet lol.
So the bullet went through the skull? To the tail that is about how many feet of penetration?
Thanks!

Does this mean you can do a Texas Brain shot on an elephant?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
A few Ultra Bore bullets---and the reason now the Ultra Bores deserve a reputation.

Michael

Everytime I see pictures like these I want a bigger gun.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Does this mean you can do a Texas Brain shot on an elephant?

Yeah--

But it doesn't mean it will work----

Maybe some post mortem suppository shots for testing

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Ok great!
That's about nominal for the 577.
What distance was the shot?
Assuming 2,000 FPS impact velocity that is pretty awesome performance.
To say the 577 lacks penetration only means you chose the wrong bullet lol.
So the bullet went through the skull? To the tail that is about how many feet of penetration?
Thanks!

Shot was about 20 yards, perhaps just a bit less. No doubt that the 750gr CEB#13 Solid in a 577NE is a force to be reckoned with. I don't know how far the bullet traveled but going into the skull and stopping about a foot, maybe a bit less, from the base of the tail is maybe 10 feet?

I don't think it's reasonable to think you could take a rear end shot and reach the brain. I know that was a rhetorical question. But it does provide food for thought as to whether or not the heart and lungs could be reached from a rear on shot. But there is a huge difference between shooting a tuskless and a big bull. Certainly not a first shot option but possibly an option to do a bit more than just disable the hip area on the going away, stop him before he reaches the boundary type of shot.

Teaxs brain shot. Hummm

First there was the "Texas Heart Shot," now there is the "Texas Brain Shot" ... that may be on the ragged edge for elephant, even with a Cutting Edge brass solid.


Texas Brain Shot: Anytime you shoot a Texan in the wallet, that is by definition a brain shot, or a near miss, eh?
Texans can take a joke, and here's a Lone Star for that grand old lion with a rat caliber.
And I'll be hunting deer with a .223 this year.
Works well on rats too.

Up the velocity to 2,250 and I think it's possible.
Who is going to shoot an elephant in the ass?
Post mortem obviously

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

The 9.3 really opened up nicely on the lion. I hit it with both shots in the boiler room but my autopsy skills are not as good as yours. We found 6 petals inside the vitals and they really tore up the Aorta and lungs. He rolled down the hill after taking the first shot and never moved from where he fell into the sand river.

Todd, you are blowing my "rat caliber" for lion right out of the water buddy! HEH HEH.......

Here is what I had to say about that on the other thread;

quote:

Today if I were going on this quest specific for lion, I would use my 500 MDM, 335 gr BBW#13 NonCon at 2900 fps, and destroy the damned thing on the spot. I don't want to "Kill" a lion, I want to put his dick in the dirt, on the spot, never move again, and destroy and snuff all 9 lives out at once. These things can bite you, and bite you very quickly, and it will hurt a lot, no rat calibers for me and lion.

And now, here you blow that out! Which I am pleased that all turned out well and the 9.3 hammered the lion! Big lion, rat gun! Damn good show!



How about some of the many other critters you used the 9.3 on? Animal reactions?
Curious.
Michael

Michael,

I shot two "plains game" type animals with the non-cons. Two Kudu cows for bait. Both dropped in their tracks and never kicked. The remainder were shot with 9.3 solids. Thinking back, I'm not exactly sure which I used on the Warthog but he dropped in his tracks as well ... or rather he dropped in the mud hole he was soaking his back side in. Never kicked with the bullet entering between and just below the eyes, offset slightly to his right side and exiting just behind the left shoulder. I don't think he ever heard the shot.

Duiker was a Texas Heart shot with the solid. DRT in his tracks. Klippie, bullet hit some brush and tumbled. Ran about 10 yards. Grysbuck, clean pass through with the solid. He ran the furtherest at about 30 yards and actually required a second shot. I don't know if the non-cons would have been OK on the little guys or not. On all the critters shot with the Non-Cons, the insides were torn up pretty bad. I do have pictures and I'll post some of them when I get a chance to upload to photobucket.

Accuracy was excellent throughout. I couldn't be more pleased with the CEBs!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Up the velocity to 2,250 and I think it's possible.
Who is going to shoot an elephant in the ass?
Post mortem obviously

I Will use my 577 trex when going in 2014. Will try the 750 grs BBW 13's at 2600 fps. Sure they will get the job done - but how far Will they penetrate...?