Michael,

Yep I recollect that you weren't impressed with the thump of the 9.3 on buffalo. A bit more velocity but not enough size or weight difference for the .375 to provide much more of a thump. Straight solids, either CEB or NF will definitely provide maximum penetration with relating FN trauma.

How about pairing the NF CPS in the tube followed by the NF FPS in the magazine? The cup point will split the penetration and trauma difference between the CEB SS (Safari Solid) and the CEB SR (Safari Raptor). Should be a good alternative...

Thanks Michael and Jim for your comments. My next buffalo will be in RSA and taken on a predominantly plains game hunt. I'll have one gun - the 375 AI. I'll take some 300 CEB FN #13's loaded at 2940 fps at the muzzle - that'll get the job done on the buffalo. This will be a good bullet for a steenbuck or duiker, causing little damage to the hide. Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Thanks Michael and Jim for your comments. My next buffalo will be in RSA and taken on a predominantly plains game hunt. I'll have one gun - the 375 AI. I'll take some 300 CEB FN #13's loaded at 2940 fps at the muzzle - that'll get the job done on the buffalo. This will be a good bullet for a steenbuck or duiker, causing little damage to the hide. Regards, AIU

Good luck on you're hunt.

Jim,

I love the quote you're using...

"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

I'm sure you've noticed how hard life has been for the current administration in Washington D.C. I think John Wayne has a possible explanation.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Jim,

I love the quote you're using...

"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

I'm sure you've noticed how hard life has been for the current administration in Washington D.C. I think John Wayne has a possible explanation.

Regards, AIU

10-4 that!

A.I.U, for what it's worth;

I beleive the load you have suggested for your .375 A.I should turn out to be a real "hammer".

One of the many benefits of these wonderful non-cons/raptors is that they simply keep on producing with increased velocity (to a point, ofcourse).

Also, and others are free to dissagree, but I firmly beleive that a rough 75%-90% rule on traditional v's Raptor bullet weight should apply, at least when targetting buffalo.
What I mean by that is I beleive the best weight Raptors/non-cons (for hunting buffalo) will be between 75%-90% of the traditional bullet weight for caliber.

Your choice of a full 300gn Raptor at such extreme velocity will give you an incredible impact reaction and if delivered to the scapula bone of the shoulder should result in the animal going down on the spot.

Best of luck on your hunt,

Paul.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Cappy

Good point about the 3 blade version, and you are correct the larger blades do work better on buffalo, I concur, I used them in 9.3 and the larger blades did get into the chest cavity.

But in all honesty, I was not impressed with the caliber on buffalo, and the buffalo were not impressed. Dead... Of course, but there was no knockouts with them. With this in mind, I really like the way AIU thinks in these two minor calibers, I would just as soon hit them with a solid, and take all that penetration to assist in doing damage..... Makes pretty good sense to me, in these calibers, or a cartridge in larger caliber but slow velocity. We found the 400 #13 Solid in 45/70 to do a pretty good job on buffalo, for that cartridge. And I think the same in my levers in .500 caliber, that 405 Solid was jam up, hit hard, and drove plenty deep. So I could easy come around to the conclusion that if short on caliber, or short on velocity in larger caliber, a #13 Solid, or good North Fork Solid just might be a first class ticket...........

Michael

The three-blade copper version does look like an ultimate compromise package for an all purpose bullet.

The only drawback at the moment is that only .308" and .338" "lazers" are available on the website. I'm sure that they will be working hard to remedy the situation. If earlier reports are verified, the BC on these bullets will be high: 400, 500, 600. The only trick will be some fine tuning and handloading care with the bore-rider design.

They've got .416" bullets on product list, too, so I look forward to doing some testing with a stateside 416.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Thanks Michael and Jim for your comments. My next buffalo will be in RSA and taken on a predominantly plains game hunt. I'll have one gun - the 375 AI. I'll take some 300 CEB FN #13's loaded at 2940 fps at the muzzle - that'll get the job done on the buffalo. This will be a good bullet for a steenbuck or duiker, causing little damage to the hide. Regards, AIU

AIU.......

Sounds like a plan to me. But if you are going to bust any larger plains game, use one of the HP Raptors for that, then you will be very very impressed with the performance on larger plains game. Would be interesting if you check POI with the 235 ESP Raptor and the 300 #13 Solid......????? 235 for larger plains game, zebra, wildebeast, eland and such.... 300 #13 for everything else......

M

Michael, I have two boxes of the 230 ESP Raptors (BC=.313 with tips) and I'm working up loads now. Dan S. got me onto them. In my gun, I anticipate scary velocities with these light bullets - that is, in excess of 3200 fps. I haven't found the proper powder/bullet combination yet, but I'm thinking URP, Re17, IMR34350, Vv540, or Ramshot Hunter will be just about right. AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Michael, I have two boxes of the 230 ESP Raptors (BC=.313 with tips) and I'm working up loads now. Dan S. got me onto them. In my gun, I anticipate scary velocities with these light bullets - that is, in excess of 3200 fps. I haven't found the proper powder/bullet combination yet, but I'm thinking URP, Re17, IMR34350, Vv540, or Ramshot Hunter will be just about right. AIU

AIU.........

I swear, I hate to even mention this, most might think me insane, but in thinking of solids, I would turn that 230 around, shoot it as a solid on buffalo......

I know, insane, but it will do it. No issues at all with POI.... Same exact load will give less velocity and pressure, but so what, you have plenty anyway........

[IMG] [/IMG]

Michael, that may be just the ticket - I love the idea of having the same POI. It makes things much more simple, when you don't know what is going to be around the next corner - gold medal eland at 350 yds or Cape buffalo at 15 yds.

230s with tips for plains game, blunt FN end for buffalo.

I'll get a optimal powder/bullet match going and report back. Thanks, AIU

I love that idea
That is what they are designed to do.
What would be the impact velocity @100 yards?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Michael, that may be just the ticket - I love the idea of having the same POI. It makes things much more simple, when you don't know what is going to be around the next corner - gold medal eland at 350 yds or Cape buffalo at 15 yds.

230s with tips for plains game, blunt FN end for buffalo.

I'll get a optimal powder/bullet match going and report back. Thanks, AIU

AIU.......

Know this, I do not advocate 375 anything for buffalo... We know how tough they are, even at times with much larger calibers..... I don't think you can expect to knock buffalo over with 375 on any regular basis. But if you are determined to do so, then honestly I can't see a down side to what we are looking at with these 230 ESP Raptors....... Same POI.... Solid/Raptor Talon Tipped..... You will find with the same load in both, the solid will have less velocity, you have increased case capacity with the HP down.. You can increase a gr or two if you wanted to bring velocity up, but by all accounts I have seen, same load will be in the same hole or extremely close at 50 yds.....

Penetration is just not an issue at all with the 230 ESP as a solid... Sam and I tested in his 375 B&M, not extensively mind you....... As we just did not have many of them to begin with at that time....



At the time we tested we were doing a stick test as well, so we shot one through a 4x4 treated post 20 ft in front of the terminal box......



And personally, I would not have any issue shooting buffalo with the 230 ESP Raptor with Talon Tips either, penetration is there............ Keep ranges reasonable on buffalo... 50 yds and in.....




Now just this morning I ran across this, once again showing just how tough ole buff is..............

quote:

We get about 40 yards from the bull (still feeding) where we stop to look him over. He is an old mature bull with average spread but good drop and boss. Brian asked me what I thought and I tell him even though it's early in the hunt, I want the bull as he is what I'm looking for. With that Brian puts the shooting sticks up. As I put the rifle, a Harloo loaner .375 H&H with 250 grains Barnes X-bullets on to the sticks the bull turn and faces us. As the bull advances towards us shaking his head back and forth, Brian tells me to take him in the chest. My shot at 30 yards knocks the bull down but he gets right back up. As the bull staggers, I expect him to fall again, he doesn't. I shoot a second time, breaking his left shoulder. He walks away and I shoot again, behind the left shoulder, about 6" further back than I wanted to. The bull continues to walk away from us, stopping to feed a little. I shake my head not believing how tough these buffalo are.

We move our position and I shoot the buffalo for the fourth time, breaking his right shoulder. He refuses to go down so I put another bullet into his right shoulder. Still on his feet, the bull turn towards us, advances, and falls after a couple of steps. As we move to the side to finish the job, he somehow gets to his feet, trying to get to us. At the sixth shot, he again drops to never get up again. After the seventh and final shot the bull lets out three death bellows as his life ends.

A GREAT OLD WARRIOR

Grand Old Warriors indeed...... I had one like this in July with my 50 B&M Alaskan and .500 caliber bullets...... Sometimes they just don't know they have to surrender..................

Michael

Michael,

Likewise I read this report, Cape buffalo are tough; but, I don't understand how a buffalo could still stand...that is, "still on his feet"... with both shoulders "broken." Broken shoulder bones cannot support weight, hence I doubt his bones were actually broken.

I also think factory standard 375 H&H ammo is significantly "underloaded"...but that's ust my opinion.

I'll be loading my 375 H&H AI much higher...indeed with muzzle velocities of 3200 fps with the 230 gr Raptor (~5230 ft#). This hould be no problem with my gun. Just curious, have you shot buffalo with souped-up 375 cartridges? - that is, at the velocities and muzzle energies I'm suggesting.

Finally, even with the big, big bores, shot placement remains critical. IMO, a high heart-lung shot or CNS shot will do the trick with the 230 Raptor, since we know it will penetrate deeply. Actually, the lesser recoil with less tendency to flinch should allow for more operator precision shooting - that is, by the average shooter.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Just curious, have you shot buffalo with souped-up 375 cartridges?

Hush your mouth AIU........

I have never soiled my hands with one of those things......

HEH HEH............ Running some 9.3s at 2900 and while it killed them, I was not much impressed.
That is as close as I have been to 375.........

AIU..........

I concur about the broken shoulders.... They cannot stand with broken bones... So I think he had shoulder shots, but no actual bone broken.....

Can't say much on 375HH ammo, never shot any.....

I believe that you will be just as well off, probably better off, with that 230 ESP Raptor running 3000-3200 as anything you can possibly do in that caliber. Penetration is there, both in the Talon Tipped Raptor, and as a solid, and with penetration, you cannot fail. Only thing, I don't want you to expect to knock him off his feet at the shot, you very well might, but more than likely not.

I can't see any possible way that you can fail unless you miss! I don't think you will miss, so you cannot fail.............. I see no issues with any of your thought process at all, and I agree with you 100%. Now you must simply keep us posted on how things go. When do you expect to go on this trip????

M

Michael, I dont'expect any hunting bullet to literally knock an animal down (or "knock him off his feet') - especially not a Cape buffalo - that is, unless you shoot him with a 20 mm canon. I want the bullet to get inside that chest cavity or to the CNS with enough energy to create a massive and lethal wound channel.

I'll post once I get my load up and going. I also have 3 boxes of 300 gr. CEB FN#13 solids. If the POI is the same as the 230 Raptor, it becomes a no-brainer, I'm going first shot with the 300 gr FN CEB solid.

My trip will be with my brother and wife, early next June 2014. I like the hunting/ranching/economics in RSA - it's a win-win for widelife and humanity. When we - the hunters - give the game animals value, we give them life and a place on this planet.

Regards, AIU

Guys,
Great comments. You are playing out a question I've had as well.
Why not run the 275gr 3-petal Raptor and back it up with the 300gr CEB solid?
You wouldn't have the talon tip for longer ranges, but it would probably be better up close.

AIU -- Are you mostly looking for something that can go PG or dangerous game? In that case the 230gr ESP may be the ticket. I just wonder where those petals would shear, but it seems like no question the base would fly on through.

AIU..... Excellent..... 300s with close POI would be fine, but the 230 ESP Solid is not coming up short either, so either way its win win..... If its the 230 as a Solid, higher velocity, since it has exactly the same nose profile and meplat size as the 300, then a first shot with the 230 as a solid would be just the same as far as trauma inflicted as the 300, the only thing one is giving up some on is depth of penetration, and on buffalo the 230 as a solid will have more than enough. You will probably catch it with dead frontal shot, but I doubt it from angled shot, and most certainly not from broadside......

quote:

When we - the hunters - give the game animals value, we give them life and a place on this planet.

Well said, and 100% true............

Ropati..........

I concur, the 275/300 would be superb buffalo medicine, in this caliber, or as good as it gets. But as I understand AIU...... his mission is mainly plains game, with possible buffalo, or mostly plains game, followed by other possibilities...........

In that case, the 230 ESP Raptor, talon tipped, will really show its stuff on animals like zebra/wildebeast and all plains game. Here he will see some of that knock out ability we have seen on the same with other Raptors.... I was very impressed with my 210 ESP Raptor in 9.3 on plains game...... If buffalo comes on the menu, then AIU is not at any serious disadvantage with the same, and especially the use of the 230 as a solid........... My thoughts anyway.

M

Ropati, the trip will be primarily plains game with a buffalo on the menu - that is, if the PH can cook-up a really good one. Buffs are expensive in RSA! AIU

Just received a good supply of the CEB 150 gr. .451 PD bullets. Will load they ASAP!

Keith

Michael,

I have ESP L230 raptors .375 cal with the longer L-talon tips, and I've written on the box as providing a BC=0.49 when installed. I think Dan S. told me this.

Currently, the CEB web page has the BC=0.313 with the tips installed, and tips shown are shorter than the ones I have, which appear significantly longer than those tips currently displayed.

Can you clarify the discrepancy? Did Dan S. change the tip design, and if so, why?

Regards, AIU

Keith

I tried some Bullseye the last few days with those CEB 150s, and while results were ok, I like that load we talked about with the Unique better..... I think I will load about a 100 or so with the Unique load, and in the meantime look at some other powders for this bullet...... This is ACP folks.....


AIU......

I cannot be 100% sure with much concerning anything done in 375 Caliber.... But, based on what we did in 9.3 caliber, it is my guess that you may have some of the very first very long Talon Tips, before the redesign of 9.3 and most all the upper caliber Tips. I found some issues with the first 9.3 tips with not breaking up as they should, now the 9.3 tips are shorter and have a HP in the tip, which now works 100% perfect, breaking up on contact with zero interference with terminal penetration.

Now, Don't know for sure, but would suspect that 375 was done the same way, first tips probably very long, new Talon tips shorter and with an HP in the end. Now it is possible there might be two tips for 375 caliber, one for long range, one for normal range... On that point I am not sure. ??????

Dan and the boys are still in Idaho until sometime this week I believe, but you can email Ken, and I am sure he would be happy to answer this for you for sure.....

I will PM you his email...
Michael

Michael, got ya!

Keith

Michael, the difference in BC is significant and the 0.49 BC is attractive for long range work. Also, the longer talon tips are working for me, but I'll attempt to get some with the HP. I've put in an email to Dan S. and company as well. Thanks for the reply. AIU

Good Morning Guys,

Been a bit MIA, though it is hunting season!

Just got a selection of bullets to do some testing with in the coming weeks, The plan is to run the .429 Raptors to to the max, I got a stack of deer shoulders which the plan is to "toughen" up the media and see how these bullets react when then come in contact with bone. An just for the hell of it I am going to do the same with the LW 45 ACP bullets. The ACP may not be practical but I am Ccurious to see the results, and thats good enough for me

So should be a good round of testing and the coming months should be very exciting with some field testing results coming in!

Sounds good Seasons... Keep us posted on your results.......................

Just now have the photos from Australia and thought I would show you what a .500 caliber 350 gr ESP Raptor is capable of at 2700 fps.............

Me and my best Aussie Mate Paul Truccolo...............

I recknon that that tastes pretty good after a little time over some charcoal.

That Blond gun is a looker and deadly.
I like the look of the horns on that bull

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sounds good Seasons... Keep us posted on your results.......................

Just now have the photos from Australia and thought I would show you what a .500 caliber 350 gr ESP Raptor is capable of at 2700 fps.............

Me and my best Aussie Mate Paul Truccolo...............

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Sounds good Seasons... Keep us posted on your results.......................

Just now have the photos from Australia and thought I would show you what a .500 caliber 350 gr ESP Raptor is capable of at 2700 fps.............

Me and my best Aussie Mate Paul Truccolo...............

I have been very fortunate to have shared some extremely special hunting moments with Mike, and his entire family, this particular moment being one of those.

I had seen a spectacular bull in this area a week or so prior to Mike and Jaun arriving and managed to convince them to go look for him on their day of arrival after their gruelling flight schedule to our hunting camp.

The wind gave us terrible grief as we tried to work our way around various other non-target animals whilst we looked for the big bull.

When the shot oportunity came it was not ideal.

This bull was trying to sneak away with some other animals that had gotten our scent.

Two quick, and extremely well placed, rounds from Mike's "old" .500 had the bull on the ground within a few yards and another grand old bull heads back to Sth Carolina !

Grand hunt, grand bull, grand shooting, great memories.

How's the ribs ??

Very nice buff! Gun is a looker also!! The 'old guys'...hum...not so much...

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Very nice buff! Gun is a looker also!! The 'old guys'...hum...not so much...

Sir,
I resemble that remark!
So does Crocodile Dundee by now, the old geezer!
That bull could have been a movie star!
Put to sleep nicely as is though.
Very well done.

And, Jim, your slightly more portly (and powerful) 12.7x68mm "49-10" will make a good buffalo tranquilizer too, with the same bullet.
Just be sure to hit the gym well before going on a walkabout with it.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Very nice buff! Gun is a looker also!! The 'old guys'...hum...not so much...

Jim,
we may not be easy on the eye.... but that doesn't stop us from getting the job done !

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Very nice buff! Gun is a looker also!! The 'old guys'...hum...not so much...

Sir,
I resemble that remark!
So does Crocodile Dundee by now, the old geezer!
That bull could have been a movie star!
Put to sleep nicely as is though.
Very well done.

And, Jim, your slightly more portly (and powerful) 12.7x68mm "49-10" will make a good buffalo tranquilizer too, with the same bullet.
Just be sure to hit the gym well before going on a walkabout with it.

Heck so do I - I'm older than both of them! Anyway just poking some fun at Michael...

That said, I'll definitely be hitting the gym as well as long walks (flat, up and down hill) before I attempt any walkabout anywhere , I might add though I'm down about 40# in weight from my avatar picture...

Speaking of the 12.7x68 - I'm thinking it should have been 12.45x68 to be nomenclature inline with the "49-10" ;i.e., bore diameter to bore diameter. Just sayin...

Paul Hogan is Not Dead

Jim, the way it is, you get both bore diameter and groove diameter included, have your cake and eat it too.

"Buffalo Truccolo"..... HEH HEH.............

Ribs not much of an issue the last few days, I think they are on the mend now.......

I swear RIP and Jim, looks like between the two of you, you could come up with a name for your cartridges that
someone like me could understand what in the hell they were? All this 12 something, 49/10 something, all very
confusing...... makes me......

Can't you just be simple.. the BLANK Jim, or BLANK RIP.... LOL.........................

Michael

The 500 MDM performed very well on everything, and was deadly on pigs............. But you would expect it to be as well.......

I also have to give some credit to this little 416 B&M and the 225 gr CEB Raptor we developed. Many times this bullet would exit broadside cows. You cannot ask more. For any thin skinned game on the planet, this is the bullet. I would not hesitate to take on big bear, lion, or anything thin skinned with this bullet.

In addition I also used the 300 ESP Raptor both as Talon Tipped "Demon Destroyer" and as a solid, and have to say I would not hesitate to use that on buffalo of any sort, it can get the job done, and as far as I know all of them exited..... Of course, there were a few times I was shooting anything I could lay my hands on, and sometimes don't know what went were??????

I have to say this little rifle was such a pleasure to carry, shoot and work with as well. Coming in at 6.5 lbs no scope, 7.5 lbs with scope, 18 inch barrel, and 38 inches overall, it handled like a dream.............

I love those nice big white punched out holes in the hide. These let the air and blood out really good. Funny how some folks still like those self sealing RN things.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I love those nice big white punched out holes in the hide. These let the air and blood out really good. Funny how some folks still like those self sealing RN things.

A couple of years ago Andrew had me lined up to do some shooting on a large ranch type area where they did a lot of photographs, rode tourists around for game viewing, and even a little hunting as well. This area had everything, very large area, rhino, lion, all sorts of things, and lots of buffalo. The fellow that ran the place needed to remove some of the buffalo. So that suited me just fine. That day we shot 4 big cow buffalo with the 500 MDM and the 460 #13 HP Noncons at the time, running 2400 fps.

He also had a lot of the younger fellows that worked there out with us as they were in training. Just a few days ahead of that he had a fellow there knocking around some buffalo with a 375 HH.... Most of the day they all chased wounded buffalo according to them. I don't know what the chap was shooting, but I can tell you this, they all really liked those great big round cut out holes, both in, and out. The Manager made a point to show this to all the young chaps as part of their lessons for the day. Of course we never had to chase any buffalo, none made it further than 10 yds, and one dropped in its tracks on the spot......

Yes, nice big permanent, non-sealing holes, in and out, get the job done proper...............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Yes, nice big permanent, non-sealing holes, in and out, get the job done proper...............

Michael

Absolutely! Just be careful in herds or pay the piper, no worries.

Buffalo Truccolo and Crocodile McCourry
with two-rifle battery for big game do-all:



These reports bode well for the 12.7x68mm "49/10" and the 400 Whelen-B which just about match the ballistics,
with longer rifle required on the 400 Whelen-B,
but the 12.7x68mm can do it with same rifle lengths, same action and barrel.
That 12.7x68mm "Magnum" started off as the ".500 Tornado" simple enough.
But Waffen Jung, gmbh, or however they call themselves in Germany, due to their 9.5x69mm Tornado (.375),
has copyright on the "Tornado" name as applied to any weapons systems.
Even the German Air Force had to pay them for using the term.
Michael Uekotter (member 2RECON) in Germany helped with development and liked metric designations.
12.7x68mm Magnum it is. The rest is just aka, like ".500 Tornado" and "49-10":
"The 49-bore/.500-caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010" shortens to "49-10" as a pet name.

Now after this, I expect Doc M will have no further questions, unless he is on the Grey Goose at the time,
and patience will be allowed for that.
Celebrating another great Safari Down Under.
Definitely on my Bucket List.