I say that no evidence ws found in the chest cavity but I have done few autopsies and my knowledge base has comes from pictures on this forum.

Zephyr

Congrats! Nice hole in that heart. We will wait for some more photos. Sounds like the 480 BBW#13 Did some big heavy work work as well. On the frontal buffalo, blades would have been caught up in internals, and hard to track. Sounds like the buff I hit frontal with the 420 #13 and 458 B&M, found that bullet behind the stomach.

CrossL

For sure, send the bullets and the rest of the loaded 295s, will check them out.

Take photos, document, and so forth. I would be amazed if a bullet passed through pelvic and spine and did not show some sign of its passage! Thats heavy stuff, specially for a little skinny 416! HEH.......

M

CrossL
Awesome first safari. Congratulations on a great hunt.

Zephyr
Thats one hell of a heart shot. Well done!


Rhodes
DRSS

Zephyr-

Well done!

Based on the Buff that Beau hit with a frontal heart shot last month (416Rem w/370gr NonCon), I'm also betting blades were in the internals - hard to locate in the mess they make!

Welcome home and thanks for the pics.

The effect of a Woodleigh Hydro 235gn 375H&H on the heart of a Buffalo.

As you can see, instead of the normal 1" round hole that you normally get with a RN SN bullet, it does a lot more damage.

Even with a 500 Nitro or 505 Gibbs, I haven't seen that type of blow out effect.

Shot was front on about 80 - 90 yards or so.

Also shot another animal a few days later, almost an identical shot
but with a RN SN and as expected, it had a 1" hole through the heart.

Thats some good trauma 505G. A HUGE improvement over that old RN design! It's good to see Woodleigh making moves to improve performance and move to the future.

Michael

Yes, agree in some respects. FYI, we were using 235gns to test the theory that a 235gn Woodleigh Hydro can do what a 270gn and 300gn RN SN bullet can do. It did and that included penetration - often end to end on what were pretty big buffalo, not small one's.

It takes a lot to impress me and I was impressed !


I have yet to shoot a Buffalo through the heart with anything - from 318WR upwards that has not fallen over dead after some short period of time !

I see a few comments on the various threads about woodleigh's and keeping within the RIV window.

Two points - Geoff / Woodleigh can't change the design of the DOUBLE RIFLE bullets or a whole load of people who use them in DOUBLE RIFLES won't get the performance they want / expect.
I think people sometimes forget that.

So, as has been noted by a few, Geoff has released different bullets for different calibres (same bullet, tougher jacket), especially the bigger magnums so that people can push them faster like the world seems to want to do.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Thats some good trauma 505G. A HUGE improvement over that old RN design! It's good to see Woodleigh making moves to improve performance and move to the future.

Michael

Forgot to add.

Not often I take photos of hearts with holes in them but this was interesting so we wanted to send some pics to Geoff so he could see.

I wish I had taken the hole in the heart from the RN SN as it would have made a good contrast !

.

quote:

Yes, agree in some respects. FYI, we were using 235gns to test the theory that a 235gn Woodleigh Hydro can do what a 270gn and 300gn RN SN bullet can do. It did and that included penetration - often end to end on what were pretty big buffalo, not small one's.

Exactly what we find on the BBW#13 NonCons. We find the lighter BBW#13s out performing all the heavier for caliber conventions across the board, both in penetration and in trauma inflicted. The BBW#13 NonCon will not penetrate as deep as the Hydro, as it sheds it's six blades up front, but it far exceeds the capabilities of any conventional regardless.

Michael

quote:

Brent and I were discussing this as he had a similar situation with a wildebeast and the 500 MDM. Hit some brush turned the bullet. I have never seen any of the NonCons not shear wh

Michael,

I have been wondering since you mentioned this- Will get the pics posted, they aren't very good but I thought the entrance wound on the lion looked unusually large.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Brent and I were discussing this as he had a similar situation with a wildebeast and the 500 MDM. Hit some brush turned the bullet. I have never seen any of the NonCons not shear wh

Michael,

I have been wondering since you mentioned this- Will get the pics posted, they aren't very good but I thought the entrance wound on the lion looked unusually large.

Good Morning Pal! You can tell what a BBW#13 does by the entrance for sure. You can tell if it was at an angle or straight easy as can be. It always cuts a hole like a damned wadcutter both in and out. It should only be caliber going in, hits at an angle then you can very clearly see that angle in the entrance in the skin. It shows it every time I have ever looked. That last big redskin I shot with the 475 B&M was an extreme angle going in the right just behind the shoulder, going to the rear left leg. I pointed this out to Sam when the animal was down how you could always see the angle which the bullet entered. If the bullet is stable at entry, no issues that I have ever seen on angled shots. Unstable or sideways, then it might be a problem. For sure, post us some pics, might be able to see.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Brent and I were discussing this as he had a similar situation with a wildebeast and the 500 MDM. Hit some brush turned the bullet. I have never seen any of the NonCons not shear when above LVSP.

Michael,

I have been wondering since you mentioned this- Will get the pics posted, they aren't very good but I thought the entrance wound on the lion looked unusually large.

Cross and I spoke this morning at length concerning the no shear 295 NonCon and the lion. He sent some photos of the entrance wound. While I don't think this either confirms or denies anything, to me, this looks a big oblong, and it looks bigger than what it should, which is .458. Without something to measure by of course it is still hard to tell exactly. But it don't look exactly right to me????

Cross is sending some samples over of the loaded ammo he had with him, I intend to inspect and test this to see what I come up with. Barring finding anything conclusive with that, I will believe that the possibility exists that a piece of brush was hit, causing instability, which caused the bullet to not shear. Still investigating.

You guys must say what you think as well. Does this hole look right to you?

Hard to say really.

culprits in order of likelihood
1 Brush
2 Brush
3 Brush

Agree with Todd, hard to say from that one photo.

The skin area hole looks bigger and would suggest an other than perfect entry but I would like to see the entrance hole through the muscle.

In that photo, is the actual hole where the bullet penetrated near the bottom of the red area ?

Also, was that taken straight up or has someone poked around a bit and moved the body which has made the outer skin move.

Also, unless the bullet has a history of instability which it doesn't (instability is a reference to early 458 Win Mag bullets not stabilizing at short range), then it probably hit something.

LIONHUNTER Does Beau have a report of pics of his buff??There was a Appy in Chewore S that was talking of a Buff shot with a 416 and CEBs and I thought he mentioned your LionHUNTER HANDLE QUOTE]Originally posted by LionHunter:
Zephyr-

Well done!

Based on the Buff that Beau hit with a frontal heart shot last month (416Rem w/370gr NonCon), I'm also betting blades were in the internals - hard to locate in the mess they make!

Welcome home and thanks for the pics.[/QUOTE]

Michael

PM Sent.

.

To me the hole doesn't look quite round but pretty damned close. It could be that the shooter was higher than the level where the bullet hit causing it to hit at a little bit of a downward angle. Not really enough to tell here except it didn't hit sideways.

465H&H

Kind of looks like a TSX EXIT hole to me instead of a caliber entrance hole. Does he have any additional pictures?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Not really enough to tell here except it didn't hit sideways.

465H&H

I agree. It just doesn't look like a sideways entrance from what we can see.


Michael

How much instability / off centre access hit does it have to be for the bullet not to open up correctly (or shear the petals in this case) ?

.

I have seen quite a few BBW#13 NonCon entrances now, they are caliber holes, squared off perfect, like a wadcutter. This hole looks oblong to me. But regardless its always difficult to tell without digging around.

quote:

Also, unless the bullet has a history of instability which it doesn't (instability is a reference to early 458 Win Mag bullets not stabilizing at short range), then it probably hit something.

It would be unstable if it hit a piece of brush. Brush is the issue, not stability of the bullet. If it hit skewed or sideways, its not going to shear. At an angle, yes, it is going to shear every time. I hit a redskin at a severe angle, and destroyed everything in its path. But hitting unstable after brush is another story.

Who knows? I don't. Still investigating, and will be waiting on the loads from Cross to investigate further. However, I have a feeling that even when I get the loads I will be right back here at this same spot.

???????

In the end, the fail safe works. As long as one has penetration, regardless of everything, you cannot fail. Cross failed to get the trauma needed and desired, but he did not fail to get penetration. All was not a total loss.

Michael

quote:

It would be unstable if it hit a piece of brush. Brush is the issue, not stability of the bullet.

That's what I said - It hit something !!!

I should have been clearer in my post, sorry.

.

quote:

Also, unless the bullet has a history of instability which it doesn't (instability is a reference to early 458 Win Mag bullets not stabilizing at short range), then it probably hit something.

Crap 505G--Yes I see now, forgive, I had too many irons in the fire and typing to fast to read!

quote:

That's what I said - It hit something !!!

I should have been clearer in my post, sorry.

Yes, I concur, it is my belief it did hit a piece of brush, based on comments from Cross, based on our conversation earlier today, and based on the limited photo we have, the reactions of the animal and everything else I can gather together, it appears that there was a very strong possibility it hit brush.

We are in full agreement. I am sorry I did not read as proper and close as I should have.

Michael

Using Occam's Razor that the simplest answer is usually the right one it would seem that the brush was the issue. The hole does look a bit oblong and could have trued itself once inside the game. The fail safe worked. This goes to show that a hollow point that does not sheer becomes an effective flat nose to finish the job. If this were a round nose I bet there would have been non straight line penetration. This reminds me of the JFK magic bullet theory lol.

worth reading

http://68forums.com/forums/sho...g-Edge-Raptor/page13

Boomy

It takes awhile for some of these chaps to understand and get what is going on with the BBW#13s. Even then, they seem to not be sure about blades hanging on, which I am 100% sure they are not. Since they are not recovering any bullets I can't imagine how they think that? Or where that might even come from? LOL.................. Since they are not reading our thread, they really do not fully understand what is happening just yet. HEH...... Maybe in time they will figure it out. They are beginning to understand the term DRT however I see! "Dead Right There".


Michael

I got interested in helping NE450#2 take a closer look at his 458 Socom, and some of the bullets he can work with in it to help enhance the firepower of the little cartridge. It's on a separate thread down below here. I will post there as well, however, all Terminals will always go here on the Terminal Thread.

NE450#2 has some limitations with the Socom, like so many things, it's a compromise as well. So velocity is a limiting factor here. He would like a good expanding or trauma inducing bullet, and something to follow up with that will give good penetration like the south end of a north bound pig! I think we have that for him, even at very low velocity. As for the Penetrator, was there ever any doubt?????




This is some serious penetration for a bullet at such low velocity. Remember, animal tissue "Rule of Thumb" add 30% to 35% more penetration for animal tissue. If NE450#2 can get anything close to 1500-1600 fps with this bullet he will have all the penetration he needs for anything he might encounter with the Socom.

Another good penetrator is the 325 North Fork CPES. I think it is right on the edge of its working velocity to expand however. As you can see, one did, and one did not expand so much. Of course the one that did not expand so much penetrated deeper, never a bad thing. The one that did expand some penetrated less, but gave more trauma as well. This bullet is a bit better at higher impact velocities I believe.






Same thing with the 350 Speer, its at the bottom end of expansion here. One sorta did, the other sorta did not. I would rule the 350 Speer out of the running for this application.




Now here is my biggest surprise! When Hornady came out with this bullet probably around 2000 or maybe 2001 as I recall, it was rather evident that they just took the 350 Round Nose that was designed for the 458 Winchester, flattened the nose, and load it in 45/70s. It was great for that, but I tested it way back then and it would not expand or do anything at impact velocities of less than 1600 fps. I had not tested this bullet at all since then. 11-12 years ago! It is now obvious that Hornady has made a BIG change in this bullet to get it to expand like this at low velocity. This also means that some more test work is going to be required to fully understand this bullet now at various different velocities as well. Trauma was massive for a bullet moving this slow, big gaping holes in the test medium 3 inches or more across. Very impressive. This 350 Hornady Flat Nose is an excellent contender for NE450#2 and back up with the 325 BBW#13 Solid--if he can get POI close, then this is a winning combination in my book.






Couple of things to ponder, has Hornady made any changes to the 350 Round Nose version, the one designed for 458 Winchester Velocities? I tested this extensively years ago as well, and it did well up to 2400 fps impacts, and of course nothing below 1600 fps impacts.

And, with the 350 Flat Nose--What is it's new upper end velocity? Low end velocity? Some questions that might need answering as time allows.

Thank God Hornady did not make a DGX out of it, it would not have been worth a damn then! The Interlocks are still their top of the line bullet.

More to come on this in the days or weeks to come.

Michael

I concur,

Very interesting, hunted a lot of critters with the 350gr hornady rn and fn in my marlin gg. Neither bullet seemed to expand much on deer or bears, even fully penetrated a bull moose broadside. never recovered one. Did do a number on a cranky racoon at 10 ft... This was early 2000`s btw. max load around 2000fps. i wonder if hornady hasen`t changed things judging from those pics

Another example of sectional density driving expansion:

I shot a cow moose broadside with a .458 WinMag using the Hornady 500gr RNSP at about 2100 fps MV, so impact at about 100 yards would be about 1965 fps.
The bullet shed its core, broke up into two main chunks of lead and the empty jacket.
Each of those three main fragments broke a rib on the off side and were recovered from the chest cavity.
The meat was delicious.

Yet a lighter Hornady 350-grain/.458 at about same velocity held together well enough to fully penetrate/exit a bull moose broadside for Hammell.

And it expanded beautifully at 1538 fps in MIB test medium.

I never heard anything bad about the Hornady 350-grainers in .458 caliber.

quote:

i wonder if hornady hasen`t changed things judging from those pics

Hammell

I am sure Hornady changed this bullet. I tested them back 10+ years ago, and under 1600 fps impact there was no expansion at all. Up to 2400 fps they held tight. I don't think this bullet will go the 2400 fps limit anymore. This was the Flat Nose Version. I don't have anymore RN here, I let that inventory drop. But still had a couple of boxes of these.

For this bullet to perform at this low velocity, I am sure Hornady made some changes to it, since it was supposed to be for the lever guns anyway.

It showed some serious trauma as well in the test medium at this low velocity.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:


Michael,

Unfortunately there are many folks out there who - for whatever reason - will continue to use he 9.3 and .375 calibers on buffalo. Heck back in Taylor's day there were many English gentry that used the 318 Westley Richards and the 330 Jeffery on buffalo and believed they were using the perfect caliber/cartridge combo...

It appears Dan needs to offer both the 6-petal and 3-petal bullets in 9.3 and .375 calibers with each prominently noted on the website and the PDF catalog what their intended usage is. Perhaps even contact current customers of these two calibers to forewarn them against using the 6-petal versions on buffalo...

Now this does raise an interesting issue and set of questions, "How are the 6-petal .409/.410 and .416 caliber HP NonCons doing on buffalo? Are the petals sufficiently heavy in these calibers to penetrate into the buffalo's innards? Has a minimum individual petal weight been identified that assures optimal penetration? Do these calibers perhaps need a 4-petal HP NonCon for use on buffalo? And finally, as these bullets will likely have either the Ogive or Round Talon Tips installed for optimal petal performance, should the 3-petal bullets have a single groove engraved at their sheer points (similar to Sam's lighter weight DR .510 caliber bullets) for easy identification of the heavier 3/4-petal versions?"

On the evidence of one shot--the six blade 416 works great on buff-
the blades penetrated through body cavity shredding liver and lung tissue. base was found sticking through skin on far side.

Doc M will be posting pics of recovered bullet

Thanks Cross for the update.

I believe Michael posted, either here or on another thread, that the six-petal design are only an issue in use against buffalo with the .366/9.3 and .375/9.5 caliber BBW#13 HP NonCons as the sheared petals are to light weight to cut their way through to the vitals when the bullets impacts the heavy boned/muscled shoulder... No problems with the .40 caliber and above HP NonCon bullets...

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Thanks Cross for the update.

I believe Michael posted, either here or on another thread, that the six-petal design are only an issue in use against buffalo with the .366/9.3 and .375/9.5 caliber BBW#13 HP NonCons as the sheared petals are to light weight to cut their way through to the vitals when the bullets impacts the heavy boned/muscled shoulder... No problems with the .40 caliber and above HP NonCon bullets...

IMHO

that is 100% correct

quote:

that the six-petal design are only an issue in use against buffalo with the .366/9.3 and .375/9.5 caliber BBW#13 HP NonCons as the sheared petals are to light weight to cut their way through to the vitals when the bullets impacts the heavy boned/muscled shoulder...

While the test work done here gives us an amazing base knowledge to get things started off, it cannot do everything and end all. There are times that we take that base knowledge, and expand on that from field work. You have to have both to fully and completely understand the different dynamics that occur with each class of bullets.

Test work with these two calibers .366/.375 looked great here with the six blades, and test work I did in April with the 9.3 B&M on wildebeast, zebra, hartebeast and impala was very impressive. But, from the reports on buffalo from Ken Buch, to begin with, Aaron Neilson afterwards, we learned these blades were not making through the heavy muscle/bone tissue of buffalo! Immediately prompted a 3 blade design on both calibers, specific to the BBW#13 NonCon--not the Raptors.

Now, what happens as we go down in caliber and get to .366 and .375 the six blades begin to get thinner and smaller. While they tend to do great with thinner skinned species, when they encounter buffalo those blades will break in half, and bend in the middle. Not conducive to slicing and penetration of heavy muscle tissue. Double the size of the blades, from 6 to 3 blades, and now they start to be the same size as a big bore #13 NonCon. The 3 blade does not bend or break in half on heavy muscle or thick skin. Therefore being able to penetrate and slice their way through this tissue.

From all accounts I have heard, the 416 does not suffer this, nor any of the larger big bores.

So, .366 and .375 there is now the "Buffalo Version" with 3 blades. The 3 blade versions will be limited to those calibers only. There will still be the standard 6 blade versions for everything else in those calibers.

Neither of those calibers should be first choice on buffalo to begin with. I don't give a damn about how many 1000s have been killed with 375 and 366, that still don't make them proper buffalo medicine- End Of Story!


Michael

Hopefully, I will not get a chance to test the 3 petal design in 9.3 next week. Meaning that I really would prefer to take a buff with the 577NE. But, should it be necessary to go to the 9.3, I'm all loaded and ready with the 3 petal design and prepared to give a full report. Should be some kind of fun to introduce a buff to that 700gr., .585 Non-Con however!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Hopefully, I will not get a chance to test the 3 petal design in 9.3 next week. Meaning that I really would prefer to take a buff with the 577NE. But, should it be necessary to go to the 9.3, I'm all loaded and ready with the 3 petal design and prepared to give a full report. Should be some kind of fun to introduce a buff to that 700gr., .585 Non-Con however!!

Todd

It is my SINCERE hope that you do not have to worry about the 3 blade 9.3 either. If you do, that means something went wrong with the 577!

I don't think folks read very well sometimes and misinterpret what I say about 9.3 and 375 on buffalo. I never say that they won't kill one, hell, I am pretty damned sure I can kill one with a 223 and have a bullet that will do so, BUT that don't mean one should use 223 on buffalo! 9.3 or 375 just don't knock the shit out of buffalo, like bigger bores do, and that is the jest of it. Yep, can kill buffalo by the 1000s with these calibers, but I like to knock hell out of buffalo, not just put a bullet in them and kill them after they go a few hundred yards!

I can't wait to hear about thumping that buffalo with the 577! I think that buff will take notice of that! Watch the reactions. I have seen a few buffalo thumped in my day, and thumping buffalo is not easy!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I can't wait to hear about thumping that buffalo with the 577! I think that buff will take notice of that! Watch the reactions. I have seen a few buffalo thumped in my day, and thumping buffalo is not easy!

Michael

I'm looking forward to hearing about that as well!!!



Have a tracker hold the 9.3 while you take everything from giant millipede to Cape buffalo with your V-C 577 Nitro Express. Nothing is too small or too big for the 577.

I received the bullets that CrossL recovered on his Safari a few weeks ago. He sent some notes along, so I hope I have everything labeled correctly, and for further comment I will let Cross tell us about each one if anything needs telling.

First thing we are going to look at is a 350 BBW#13 Solid that busted the buffalos pelvis, I think, continued on to penetrate into the spine putting buff down for the count. You can see the nose took a beating, and just how some heavy bone can effect a bullet. I can tell you from the T'Rex tests done here that there are some bullets out there that would not have come out this good in this encounter, and possibly would not have continued to do the job as this one did!






I assume the first round in the buffalo being the 325 BBW#13 NonCon.



Two 350 BBW#13 Solids recovered from the elephant.



And last, but most certainly not the least, is the TEST BULLET fired from 458 B&M Super Short, 325 BBW#13 Solid in .458.




Michael

very cool, I wonder how fast I could push the 325gr solid 458 in my Marlin? 2000-2100fps, And how it would perform at those fleeing moose shots, big bears?