Probably a better idea Capo. Black marker for non cons when backed up by solids.
Black tips and bullet protrusion.
Question on possible twig interference... Was there lots of brush and tall grass? Was the POI same as POA?

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
.....
458 non-con acted like solid---no petals, just straight through---
....

I just thought of a 3rd possibility…

I seem to recollect a similar situation that related to the original BBW#13 HP NonCons with their smaller diameter HPs and thicker blades giving inconsistent petal shear. I’m not sure of the caliber, and I’m too lazy today to look back through the thread to identify it, but Michael and Dan resolved the problem – across all BB calibers – by increasing the HP diameter which thinned the blades with the result of very reliable petal shear at much lower impact velocity. All current production Talon Tips are solely cut for the ‘new’ HP diameter.

So…I reckon I need to ask, “SSR are the .458 HP NonCons you're using of the original smaller HP diameter design or of the new larger HP diameter design?”

Edit Added: But perhaps I've already answered the question - page 48 of the B&M thread indicates SSR used the 295gr HP NonCon which is listed in the current CEB catalog so obviously it's the new larger diameter HP design with the thinner blades. I'm leaving this post on the thread just in case anyone else might have thought of this as being the issue.

There is a lot we could speculate on, but until Sean is able to give us some more information its up in the air.

I have never had a NonCon not shear when above LVSP. And Sean was running this thing at 2575 fps as I recall. I am not 100% sure, but I believe he was using the 295 SS--designed for the super short, which there was no way it had any small cavity, as it came on well after that was resolved early in the 458s. Many possible scenarios when confronted with issues in the field. It could have been a solid by mistake, I have done this myself in the heat of battle. It could have been a 295 #13 SS, hit a small limb or brush? It could have been something else?

What I do know is that the RN cap, without the HP in it would not have mattered, I did not like the shear pattern with the RN cap installed. No problem with shear, except it dispersed the blades further away from the bullet quicker than without the RN Cap, and penetration of the blades themselves were less than without the Cap. No caps have been done that I know of with an HP in them yet.

If Sean was using a Tipped #13, hit a limb, or brush, it could have done a couple of things, knocked the tip out or off, tipping the bullet on entry and causing instability. If it hit a big enough limb, it would have sheared, but Sean and everyone would have seen that as something like that is very apparent, blowing mess everywhere, tree limb and all. So I doubt that.

When we hear more, we may know more, we may not. When Sean returns if warranted, I will have him send all his loaded 295s to me, and I will test everyone of them if need be to see if we can find the answer.

So when he gets a chance I am sure he will give some more details.

Michael

10-4... Peanut gallery going silent...

Michael:

I'll put the Hornady 9,3s in the mail to your today. I am trying to see how they perform out of my little 9,3X74 at around 2250 fps. However, it might be fun to see how they do in a higher velocity in you 9,3 B&M as well. Have fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

I'll put the Hornady 9,3s in the mail to your today. I am trying to see how they perform out of my little 9,3X74 at around 2250 fps. However, it might be fun to see how they do in a higher velocity in you 9,3 B&M as well. Have fun.

Dave

That will be excellent! Question Please--These Interlocks? Or something else? Curious is all. I am not so happy overall with Hornady, but I do, and probably always will believe the Interlock to be the best of Non Premium Conventional Bullets, the very best that I know of overall. Now, there are some really good Non Premium Conventionals from Others, just comes to mind is that .458 350 Speer. But in general terms, the Interlock is an excellent bullet. In fact, I built a rifle around one, the 50 B&M Alaskan originally was built around the 500 gr Hornady--an excellent bullet in .500.

Michael

Michael:

Yes, they are Interlocks. The load that I use in my 9,3X74 is a Hornady case, Winchester large rifle magnum primer, 55.7 grains of Reloder 15 or 58.9 grains of Ramshot Big Game, and this 286 grain Interlock. Like you, I have always had great luck with plain old Hornady Interlocks and Speer Hot Core bullets as long as I paid attention to velocity.

Post office said they would be there on Thursday.

Dave
Thursday is good! I was hoping to get more done today, but I swear, I am pulled in 20 different directions for the last two days. Every single time I start one project, I am pulled to another!

Have Brent and pal popping in on Friday, I have some terminals building up, and will get these done for you by then, I am sure.

Also working on some low velocity things for NE450#2 and his 458 Socom. I have the loads now, started building a couple of boxes of test medium. Will be testing 350 Speer, 350 Hornady, 325 BBW#13 Solid, and 325 North Fork CPES at impacts of around 1400-1500 fps. Should be interesting as well.

I will see about getting the velocity close, maybe in the meantime with some other 286s I have around.

Michael

Michael,

While Dave is sending the Hornady 9.3 bullets for testing, I have a couple you may wish to try at the same time. If I am butting in here just tell me!

As mentioned in the DR thread I have some RWS V Mantel solids and some RWS T Mantel soft points. Both 9.3 @ 286 gr. If you haven't already tested these you may wish to see how they compare. I'd certainly be interested to see how they perform at DR velocities around 2250fps and the higher velocity your B&M pushes them out at.

I can send a dozen of each over for test if you wish. Let me know.

Cheers
Rhodes
DRSS

Rhodes

No man, glad to have you, not butting in at all! Welcome to the party! LOL.....


Yes, just sent you a PM with my address. Send me some of those spare RWS bullets and we will find out what they are made of!

I will look at the solids first--I may not shoot them if they are round nose, so only send about 5 of those. I can't keep most RN in the box, they go wild and go all over the place and do damage to the range.

The softs, no problem at all. Probably only need 10 or so will be fine. Gives me some leeway to work with.

Get that PM and get'em on the way!

Michael

Michael

PM recieved. Yes the solids are RN. I'll send em for you to look at anyway. I'll get them in the mail today.

Cheers
Rhodes
DRSS

Can any of you guys refer me to the section (if there is one) where penetration tests included the Nosler Partition as compared to CEBs and or TSXs? thanks in advance. jorge

Jorge,

This response is based upon my best recollection... And no, unfortunately there has been no disassembly of this thread for indexing purposes...

The CEB bullets were not in existence when this thread commenced - they were developed as a result of this thread through the efforts of Michael McCourry and Sam Rose.

Read the first 50 or so pages of this thread and you'll identify the comparisons of Barnes, Nosler, Swift, Woodleigh, etc bullets between their performance within Michael's bullet box and their performance in the field; all of each manufacturers bullets are listed or were tested but every bullet that Michael had used was presented as well as bullets that AR members sent for testing.

Side by side testing with CEB's has been a comparison of their performance to the already established performance of the other bullets. I hope this helps.

Now all this said, if you have a particular caliber and specific bullets that you'd like to see the results of in a single post, Michael has been very accommodating of these type requests - if he has the data available in his historical data within the lab...

Hey Michael,

I know you're busy this week and I don't want to rehash old material - but back to the RN Talon Tips.

In your original posts regarding their performance you noted that they caused the sheared petals to dispurse widely with a shallower penetration when compared to same NonCon performance with the Ogive Talon Tips. You perceived they needed the small drilled HP that the other BB Talon Tips have to assure that the tip would broke up consistently which should result in the standard narrower and deeper petal dispersal pattern.

So have the RN Talon Tips been modified with the small diameter HP yet? And if so have you had a chance to determine if the modified RN Talon Tips use now generates a NonCon petal dispersion pattern and depth closely matching the NonCon using the Ogive Talon Tips?

Thanks,

You know what would be nice? A Hatcher's Notebook or maybe more appropriately a Michael458 Notebook of terminal bullet performance. Even an properly arranged and organized e-version would be valuable. Setting this up is beyond my means and organizational capabilities but I would definitely purchase a printed version.

Eric

quote:

So have the RN Talon Tips been modified with the small diameter HP yet? And if so have you had a chance to determine if the modified RN Talon Tips use now generates a NonCon petal dispersion pattern and depth closely matching the NonCon using the Ogive Talon Tips?

Jim

RN Caps with HPs are on the way, probably next week. Simply to test and see. So I will be testing RN Caps No HP vs RN Caps with HP. Results will be posted here.

I am betting on the HP. The Normal Talon Tips with the HP are simply awesome, and actually give a better shear, lower LVSP, than a standard NonCon. So I am a believer in the new big bore HP Talons.

quote:

You know what would be nice? A Hatcher's Notebook or maybe more appropriately a Michael458 Notebook of terminal bullet performance. Even an properly arranged and organized e-version would be valuable. Setting this up is beyond my means and organizational capabilities but I would definitely purchase a printed version.

I was thinking of doing sort of an "Index". Take each caliber, then by cartridge, then by bullet within that caliber/cartridge, reference the page it is on. It really would not be such a daunting task, and I have it organized in my mind how--But, to find the time to go through. First one would go through each page, catalog what bullet was tested on that page, then just put them together when finished.

Something Like this.

.458

45/70
300 Remington--Pages 3, 14, 63, 75

350 Speer--Pages 2, 12, 21

fdsa fdsa fda

fdafdasfdsa

458 Winchester

405 Remington --pages 1, 7 , 40

All this is fictional above so don't go looking for them

Just to use as an example.

If one had this on a spreadsheet of sorts, then it would be easy to keep up with from that point.

Someday, I find myself with nothing to do ( ) then maybe I can sit down with it and start???

Michael

I just checked out the 'Advanced Search' function under the 'Find' tab at the top of the page. Unfortunately the drill-down is only to the BB Forum, if it allowed drill-down to a specific thread then the 'Find-Advanced Search' function would provide the capability.

I believe my PDF creating program that I use has a 'search' function; will have to see if it has an 'indexing' function. I'll check and report back my results tomorrow...

Thanks Michael. I do recollect the initial poor results with the non-HP Talon Tips followed by the awesome enhanced performance of the HP Talon Tips. Hopefully the RN TTs will flow the same trend once the HP is added...

Michael, may i suggest that you post the results this way.

Caliber
Bullet weight
Velocity
Then details of penitration.

The cartridge is irrelivent.

Just my 2 cents.

Now load data is a whole nother kettel of fish.


Keith

Following along with the terminal testing one can't help but dwell on a few questions.

One I've been thinking about is the cup point solids. Are these meant to be a hybrid solid / soft point bullet? Are these meant to deliver some sort of hydro shock in front of the solid as they travel through game as well as having the solid construction for deep penetration? I remember seeing a prototype BBW#13 turned up by Sam with a cup in the nose among other things but these sheared unevenly if I remember correctly and the bullet veered off course. I'm guessing the cup point style only works with copper bullets and not brass after seeing this test.

Another thought is with the non-cons. Would a lead slug in the hollow point help with low velocity shear? I don't believe this has been tested yet? Maybe only half filling the hollow point on the deeper cavity bullets to bring the weight up and promote low velocity shear for DR and lever gun calibers?

Too many questions I know. Hopefully they are valid.

Another means to delay shear for the non-cons might be to glue the talon or RN tips into the HP with superglue or crazy glue. The bond may be just enough to delay shear to get the sheared petals into the chest cavity on a Cape buffalo. AIU

The hollow point remaining hollow makes it act as it does. Remember these shear not so much on mechanical leverage like a bending back Barnes but internal cavity pressure. If you plugged it up it would inhibit that. At lever action impact velocities you might not get shear at all I think. It would be interesting to test the theory with soft pure lead but accuracy would suffer. There are plenty of heavy conventional bullets already out there. If anything lead in the base would be interesting but mess with center of gravity.

Boom I agree that the internal cavity pressure in the hollow point forces the petals outwards and the brittleness of brass results in them shearing. But then when you plug them up with the tip with a starter hole drilled in the end you get the petals shearing at an even lower velocity. This is what got me thing about a lead plug with maybe a starter hole drilled in it or maybe only half filling the cavity.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I just checked out the 'Advanced Search' function under the 'Find' tab at the top of the page. Unfortunately the drill-down is only to the BB Forum, if it allowed drill-down to a specific thread then the 'Find-Advanced Search' function would provide the capability.

I believe my PDF creating program that I use has a 'search' function; will have to see if it has an 'indexing' function. I'll check and report back my results tomorrow...

Capo, not sure if you're aware but when you are viewing an internet page you can hit the "F3" key and a little search bar will appear at the top or bottom of your screen (depending on whatever web browser you are using). Type in a word or phrase you are looking for and that word will be highlighted in yellow wherever it appears on the page. Might be of help here.

Rhodes,
Michael will likely need to explain the NF CPS function as he definately understands their function. What believe I understand is that the standard NF CPS functions somewhat as a limited penetration solid though the trama imparted by the cup point is far more than imparted bu the standard FN solid. I understand that the NF CPS bullets designed for Michael's B&M rifles expand in the nose area which further limiters there penetration but they impart additional trama beyond the standard NF CPS bullets.

AIU,
Michael and Dan already understand what is needed to cause the HP NonCon's petal to have a delayed shear for use on buffalo. The original .366 though .416 caliber CEB BBW#13 HP NonCons had a smaller diameter HP resulting in slightly thicker petals. This combination of smaller HP and thicker petals resulted in the petals shearing deeper within buffalo, just as you desire, but they functioned much like a solid on thin skinned game. The new BBW#13 HP NonCon has a larger diameter HP resulting in thinner petals and they function perfectly in thinner skinned game but expand to quickly to reach the internals of buffalo. The solution that Michael and Dan have come up with is using the same HP diameter of the new HP NonCons but using a three petal cut vis-a-vis the six petal cut of the standard HP NonCon. The value of this solution is that the same Talon Tips are usable for both bullets. This for sure related to .366 and .375 calibers - I'm presuming it also relates up to and including the .416 caliber. I'm presuming that Dan with outside mark the three petal versions of these bullets so that they are easily distinguishable from the six petal bullets when loaded with the Talon Tips. Again Michael can explain this much better than I.

quote:

Originally posted by Rhodes:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I just checked out the 'Advanced Search' function under the 'Find' tab at the top of the page. Unfortunately the drill-down is only to the BB Forum, if it allowed drill-down to a specific thread then the 'Find-Advanced Search' function would provide the capability.

I believe my PDF creating program that I use has a 'search' function; will have to see if it has an 'indexing' function. I'll check and report back my results tomorrow...

Capo, not sure if you're aware but when you are viewing an internet page you can hit the "F3" key and a little search bar will appear at the top or bottom of your screen (depending on whatever web browser you are using). Type in a word or phrase you are looking for and that word will be highlighted in yellow wherever it appears on the page. Might be of help here.

Thanks Rhodes, that's a good tip to know. I'll give it a try tomorrow when I'm on my PC.

I'm on a Mac (firefox), too, until Jan. F-3 is a mute button on the 2006 Mac.

Thanks Cap, Michael responded directly to me via email. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thanks Cap, Michael responded directly to me via email. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:


AIU,
Michael and Dan already understand what is needed to cause the HP NonCon's petal to have a delayed shear for use on buffalo. The original .366 though .416 caliber CEB BBW#13 HP NonCons had a smaller diameter HP resulting in slightly thicker petals. This combination of smaller HP and thicker petals resulted in the petals shearing deeper within buffalo, just as you desire, but they functioned much like a solid on thin skinned game. The new BBW#13 HP NonCon has a larger diameter HP resulting in thinner petals and they function perfectly in thinner skinned game but expand to quickly to reach the internals of buffalo. The solution that Michael and Dan have come up with is using the same HP diameter of the new HP NonCons but using a three petal cut vis-a-vis the six petal cut of the standard HP NonCon. The value of this solution is that the same Talon Tips are usable for both bullets. This for sure related to .366 and .375 calibers - I'm presuming it also relates up to and including the .416 caliber. I'm presuming that Dan with outside mark the three petal versions of these bullets so that they are easily distinguishable from the six petal bullets when loaded with the Talon Tips. Again Michael can explain this much better than I.

Thanks Capo. I should have known better than to second guess Doc M :-)

I was just thinking out loud about how to keep the bullet weights up for double rifle regulation and maybe a way of resurrecting the carnivore concept using longer petals / blades but keeping the weight up. Maybe it's something I can toy around with at my end for my own applications.

Cheers
Rhodes
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I'm on a Mac (firefox), too, until Jan. F-3 is a mute button on the 2006 Mac.

Yep sorry I forgot about you Mac users. I remember someone telling me the F3 search didn't work on Mac machines. I use Windows and F3 search works with Internet Explorer and Firefox.

Here is a screen capture of a search I just did on page 257. Hope this helps.



Rhodes
DRSS

Rhodes

Yep, F3 dead key on my apples too. I am back to using Safari, had some very serious issues with FireFox on my main computer the other week.

Cappy/Rhodes

No, the 3 blade is only for .366 and .375, the rat guns. So far results have been good on buffalo with the standard 6 blade 416s. No issues of blade penetration that I know of in 416.


With the impressive results of the standard BBW#13 NonCons, the lighter bullets at higher velocity, I no longer felt it was worth while to explore the Carnivore further. In other words, lets take a .500 caliber rifle. 50 B&M. Use the 450 BBW#13 HP for buffalo at 2250 fps. Now, if lion, leopard or bear on the menu, take the 335 BBW#13 HP at 2500-2600 fps for that work. When we left the Carnivore the cavity was from .600 to .800 deep, depending. By the design of the BBW#13, all 67% meplat at the top, of course the cavity was going deep into the main body of the bullet. Shear was NOT CONSISTENT, nor predictable. Massive damage done with those long huge blades, but sometimes they all did not shear, leaving one blade on the bullet, and that was not stable during terminals of course. So there was no telling how that remaining bullet would penetrate, or where or what it would penetrate? There was no consistent shear of those big blades, and therefore no predictability on what would happen once terminals started. Unlike a lighter for caliber standard BBW#13 at higher velocity. I don't like things that are not predictable, and repeatable, so I dropped the Carnivore project. Should the Carnivore project ever come back to the top again, it would need to be with a different nose profile bullet, not the BBW#13.

We will be doing some terminals tomorrow, Brent and Company is pitching up here this afternoon, and besides drinking shots from MY quarts of Special Delivery, we have some low velocity 458 caliber terminals on the plate. Currently about 6 different bullets we want to work with at Low Velocity impacts.

Michael

Michael,

I'd forgotten the current production .416 caliber CEB BBW#13s had already been used on buffalo and plains game. Thanks for the update/reminder...

Okay--

Got In yesterday evening-still jet lagged

I will provide a synopsis instead of trying to go back and find all your questions.

Then let the discussion begin :

416 3320 gr BBW#13 NC-

Impalla-perfect
Kudu-Perfect
Buffalo-Awsome-

The buff turn as I shot , the shot was about 10-12 inches too far back- the bullet penetrated through the rib cage, shredded the liver,two{?} petals through lung.

Follow up was two hrs-about 300-400 yds at most. Buff was still on his feet but very sick-PH fired 480 gr BBW#13 in 458 WM at estimated 2150 fps-hit to right of tail-bullet recovered in neck-approx 8 fr penetration
My 416 solid went through pelvic bone penetrated another 4-5 ft broke spine and was found under skin in back- In the opinion of my PH the NONCON saved a sticky situation-he felt the bull would ha ve been dead in another 15-30 min from extreme liver damage and lung bleeding-He was shocked that a bullet that did that much damage still could penetrate completely through a buff.

Elle-

416 BBW 350 gr solid-side brain shot elegant stunned went down. complete penetration-bull got back up-second shot -pass through head not recovered

one bullet recovered under skin in off shoulder

Fianl shot brain shot from behind-exited mouth region

In addition recoverd on of PHs 458 480 gr BBWs- know of at least 2 pass through shots with it also

Them damn elles can be tough when you miss the first time--


Zebra-lion bait-416 NON-CON on point of shoulder-wrecked heart lungs liver guts etc etc, etc-- exited flank


I and all who witnessed it consider the performance of the 416 B&M to be outstanding. the size and nature of the rifle caused comment constantly. While it got exciting a couple of time not a single animal was lost.


458 B&M SS

295 gr BBW#13 NC @ 2550

Lion-Very large bodied- shot was at @50 yds in very heavy brush. had a small hole with clear shot, with brush covering lower portion of Lion. PH called the shot- I hit him centers on shoulder, a bit high He gave a huge buck-jump and was in the brush in 1 stride.

recovered dead next morning-the shot penetrated shoulder, passed over heart through right lung and exited rib-cage.

This is the one I can't figure- I had superb results with the noncom in 416 and this apparent failure?

Entry wound is large-I do have pics- but gave straight penetration and killed the cat- due to brush I couldn't place the shot as low as I would have liked -3-4 inches lower and It would have take both heart and lungs-

Short form is -Michael is correct again--Penetration,penetration. even with an anomaly it was one shot-one DEAD lion

let discussion begin

Awesome report!
I just can't figure out the lion shot but a dead kitty is good. We are just used to such amazing results. The only thing I can see is a tip is a good thing and maybe the hollow point RN cap will be recommended when hunting dangerous cats and lighter non cons at moderate impact velocity. Not enough evidence to make a conclusion but the bare minimum these as a solid work well when shear is not achieved.

Very nice report SSR. And many thinks for the kitty shot clarification; a well placed shot in less than optimum circumstances but a dead kitty none the less - and we may never know why the HP NonCon performed as it did.

CrossL

Good to have you home safe.

Welcome back!

Sounds to me like you had an Awesome first Safari. All these critters can be tough, but it sounds like the 416 BBW#13s 350/320 were up to the task. Congrats on all--we look forward to some photos in the near future here.

As for the 295BBW#13 NonCon???? I don't know. The only thing I can think of is that you might have hit a piece of brush and upset the stability, hitting the lion at an angle? Brent and I were discussing this as he had a similar situation with a wildebeast and the 500 MDM. Hit some brush turned the bullet. I have never seen any of the NonCons not shear when at velocity, or above LVSP? If you want, you could send me the remaining loaded ammo and I can either test it or take a look. We may never know the exact reason, but with penetration, all was not a complete loss, as it could have been with something less.

Michael

Michael-

Have the recovered bullets and some 295 loads left.

Will send them along to you-you can take pics and compare. the one BBW#13 350 that slightly riveted went through both the pelvic bone and spine of the buff-!!!

It will take me a few days to get the pics up-do have a couple of good ones of heart-lung fragments--LOL

Glad your safari went well and you're home safely in recovery mode. The lion load is a mystery but I know Michael will try to sort it out. I look forward to the pics.

Just returned from a Buff and Tuskless in Chewore South see my hunt report just posted.
CEBs were used for both my Tuskless and Buff. My Ele was shot with my Gibbs 450NE using a 480 gr solid a frontal brain shot was taken on a cow that was slightly down hill from me the bullet entered above the eyes and pass through exiting along her spine just behind her shoulder blades.
My Buff was shot with a 400H&H using a 370gr NC CEB turned a batch of .411 dia bullets in both 400gr SL and 370 NC. The 370gr was was chronied at 2450 fps. The Buff was shot from between 30-40 yards straight on with the bullet passing through the hart and recovered in the paunch. Two petals were recovered and both were found in the bull's chest muscle and no evidence of fragmented petals were seen in the chest cavity