Am leaving for a dove hunt today (8 days), but as soon as I get back, I'll be ordering some of these 150gr bullets. Have always been a fan of the Remington Golden Sabers after seeing wound channels caused by these "talon" bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Michael,
My Monarch 3 came in and I had ordered it with the German #4 reticle as I've never liked the BDC model. Yeah, I paid the $279 for mine vs the $229.95 of the BDC. If I like it as well as I think, I may have to order another. Or...the new 2-8x for my general go to scope.
Max

quote:

I like the BDC reticle, just hoping it leans to the heavy side on these new 1X4s???? For $228.95 I could not resist looking at them! I also have several of those 2X8s and I like those a lot.....

Just FYI..... I received the two 1X4 Nikon Monarch 3's this morning, the ones on sale for $229 I bought the other day from Midway.. They have the BDC reticle, and as you see above I was hoping for the reticle to be on the heavy side....

NOT.... The thick part is too thin really. If you get one of these, get the German #4 with the heavy cross for DG.... The BDC is way to thin in my opinion for DG rifle..... Stay with the German....

Michael

Very interesting 45 ACP results.

And I remember the Alberts bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Very interesting 45 ACP results.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
... If you get one of these, get the German #4 with the heavy cross for DG.... The BDC is way to thin in my opinion for DG rifle..... Stay with the German....

Michael

Due to the high recommendations here, and on drive-by impulse today,
I relieved the Louisville, KY Cabela's store of the last two of those Nikon 1-4X20mm Monarchs with the German#4 reticle.
They will restock pretty quickly.
I also relieved the Knob Creek "Guntucky" Gun Range of two more of the discontinued Nikon 1x20mm Buckmaster scopes.
They only have two more of those gathering dust there,
legal for use on primitive weapons restricted to zero magnification.
Nice substitute for iron sights on a slick-barreled rifle.

I know we all miss Michael458 so very much... and are anxious to hear from him, but in the meantime, thought I'd share this .375 hunting report with all of you:



I have been a long time Barnes X bullet user, however my rifles shoot the Raptor faster, more accurately and with less fouling. This caribou, taken along the edge of the Alaskan Range, fell with a single 235 grain Raptor. Shot distance was 230 yards broadside. The impact was tight behind the shoulder, and about the 1/3 mark up. At impact the bull lurched and ran about 8 jumps, doing a nose dive into the tundra. I would estimate 3 seconds elapsed time from bullet impact to nose dive. The entrance was very impressive though, and the Blunt Trauma Base™ gave straight line penetration . Exit hole was about 1” in diameter, while the entry hole through the near side rib cage was very large- about the size of a tennis ball. By the way, muzzle velocity was 3,000 fps. The Raptor’s quick/massive expansion, combined with complete penetration, leaves nothing more to be desired.

No longer do you have to trade shock/expansion for penetration. The Raptor is my big game bullet. Not only is the bullet great on game, Cutting Edge Bullet’s customer service is A+.

Mack H.

Very nice caribou Mack, thanks for sharing the photo and the raptor performance report.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Very nice caribou Mack, thanks for sharing the photo and the raptor performance report.

Ditto.

All that with a "rat gun" .375 H&H?

Lessee, SD of about .239, a 400 Whelen Raptor ought to weigh about 283 grains,
but it won't be going that fast. Hmmm ...

Awesome ca rat ibou report
Not bad for a "Rat Caliber"
Sounds like you put the smack down on that beast. Any caribou recipes you wish to share?
Does good tasting dishes count as part of terminal performance?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Very interesting 45 ACP results.

And I remember the Alberts bullets.

Tony..... I did not think anyone would remember or know of these old big soft
HPs......... LOL....... Back in the day, eh?.......

RIP

I think you will enjoy the Nikons....

Oz.... Good report from Mack... Thanks..... Rat guns... Rat Calibers....

Yeah, thats right...... I Have Returned......................

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Yeah, thats right...... I Have Returned......................

Michael

And that's ALL we get????

Welcome back....

Welcome back! When you catch up on sleep and tasks the hundreds in the peanut gallery look forward to your reports.

Has the rooster crowed in SC?
Surely a teaser photo will come to roost soon.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Has the rooster crowed in SC?
Surely a teaser photo will come to roost soon.

Oh yes, Roosters crowed very early this morning.......

M

While killing time, what about that Rusty McGee fire-forming trick
of lubing the case by rolling the loaded cartridge on a lube pad
just before chambering and firing?
That prevents short headspace and primer protrusion
on the initial fire-forming. Ought to cut down on case stretching in the web area too.
I am adopting this trick.

Good Morning Boys..........

I know you must be tired of waiting on something about this latest test mission, so I am going to try and give you a decent summary of my thoughts concerning the mission itself and the successes it produced. But first, there are some points I need to get across so that you fully understand what my objectives were on this mission.

First off, my lovely wife did all the photos and video with her new camera. I do not yet have access to that, and nothing has even been viewed yet, so I have not even seen them. We hope to be starting the process of sorting much of this out this morning, tomorrow, and this coming week, so when I have them, you will have them........... Today, I can only give you the results of what was accomplished....

Mission Objectives..........

Thanks to Paul Truccolo in Australia, Southern Safaris, I was able to make the trip and work with Paul on his Best Management Practices for his buffalo area. Our mission was several fold, herd reduction, genetics, and removing sickly or injured animals. Paul has done an incredible job in his area with this, and I can see the fruits of his labors in the area. Genetics has improved to an incredible point, we saw cow buffalo that had horns that could nearly match trophy bulls. Something not seen when I was there first in 2009. Trophy bull quality has increased at a tremendous rate over the last few years, the number of trophy bulls is astounding to say the least, and the vast increase of young on coming bulls boggles my mind. The work he has done with management of his herds has been unbelievable in such a short time frame. I have been fortunate to be able to not only be part of it, but to watch the quality of the herd grow tremendously, well done Paul Truccolo.

My Mission...... I took my little 18 inch 416 B&M, and an old favorite, but rebuilt 500 MDM, which barrel was shortened to 19 inches from its orginal 21 inches. This was the first 500 MDM built, and it saw service in Australia for the first time with Paul in 2009, where it hammered to the dirt 13+ buffalo at that time.

In both rifles I DID NOT USE BUFFALO BULLETS! In both cases I was using light for caliber bullets, that are suited perfectly for all thin skinned game, including thin skinned DG. But not specifically designed for buffalo. Of course we did all the test work here in the past on all of these bullets, and I knew that each of them had penetration adequate for buffalo. Since I did not have thin skinned game and multiple thin skinned Dangerous Game to test, I did something that I would not recommend others to do, and used buffalo to test on. For specific buffalo hunting, always use the CEB bullets designed for buffalo, the Safari Raptors in various calibers.

416 caliber bullets...... 225 gr Raptor... This is the new bullet that Dan and I worked on for thin skinned DG and all other thin skinned game. It has a short nose projection so it can be seated deep, insert Talon Tip, work through all magazines in the bolt guns. It tested extremely good here, giving 20-21 inches of penetration, which is buffalo type penetration. I lowered velocity to 2870 fps so as to match POI with some other bullets I took along in 416.

I also took along some 300 ESP Raptors some Talon Tipped, some Solids, both at a tad over 2500 fps.

Daryl our pal in Australia, had worked with Dan at CEB to make some 180 gr Raptors for an upcoming project Daryl has, and these were designed for pig hunting. I grabbed a few before leaving and was running them at just a tad under 3200 fps, so had 10 of these bullets along as well.

In the beginning Paul wanted "Herd Reduction" and "Genetics", so when we would run across the small herds of mostly 4-10 animals, Paul would pick out the best animals and those were NO SHOOTS, everything else was fair game.

MAJOR POINT TO REMEMBER.... What you must understand, I don't take prisoners, I don't allow escapes, and I don't have any survivors and no wounded. This means that even if I have the PERFECT SHOT unless that animal drops to the ground, I do not leave it standing, I shoot until it is NOT STANDING any longer, no matter how many rounds it takes, and no matter how confident I am with the first shot, I continue to shoot until the problem is DOWN, or SOLVED. Because I may shoot several times into one animal is no reflection whatsoever on the performance of the bullet. Buffalo are not wired like thin skinned game.... One perfectly placed shot on thin skinned might turn it upside down with legs kicking. Buffalo don't always do this, so I shoot until the problem is solved, and then I will probably shoot it again!


I started with the 416 B&M and my main objective the 225 gr Raptors. The first few were only a couple at a time and a few singles. In one episode I took 3 out. But in one small herd of 7-8 Paul identified 2 that were not to be taken, the rest fair game. It was a wide open area and we figured I would be lucky to get one or two max before they took off. We did a drive up, I had 4 rounds in the rifle, only a few in my belt, maybe 4-5, and two in my back pocket. In all reality, I was not really prepared for the battle ahead, but was only counting on 2 at most. Jumped out of the truck, ran about 10 yards to a tree between me and the buffalo (I like to rest on a tree) and went to work on a good sized cow on my left. I hit her 3 times or so, caught another to my right wondering what the hell was going on, hit her, had to reload, fished out of the belt, went back to work on the one standing, put her down, hit another, load again out of my back pocket, shot those two, ran completely out of ammo, some were still milling about, screamed for Paul to bring the box of ammo, he did, grabbed anything I could get my hands on, and in the end I had 4 larger cows on the ground, and had fired 16 rounds of 416s, barrel smoking hot, no prisoners no escapes, no survivors. I walked around, a couple of finishers and the deed was done. Now I had fired everything I had in the arsenal, including 2 of the 180 gr bullets, which I could not tell you where those went and have no idea of how they did????? It was a war there for a short period of time and I grabbed anything I could get my hands on! LOL..................

I shot enough buffalo to come away with some good feelings about bullet performance of the 225 Raptor and the 300 ESPs... I had several of the 225s exit broadside buffalo cows, and most all the 300 ESP Tipped exited broadsides. Now you must remember, these were not big brawny bulls, but they are most certainly a hell of a lot broader and tougher than any bear, lion, leopard or any thin skinned game short of eland, and if you get full broadside penetration on one of these cow buffalos, then thin skinned dangerous game is no match at all.

If those bullets exit on broadside cow buffalo, then you can't ask for better performance, it has done its job inside, and cut two holes..... What more can you ask? Even that said, and done, I would not recommend the 225 gr Raptor as a "BUFFALO BULLET".... It is a hammer of a bullet for all thin skinned species, that is what it was designed for, and that is what it is best at. We already have proper designed Buffalo Bullets..... 325 and 370 Safari Raptors and their matching Solids.

The 300 ESP Raptor is another story, and it does indeed qualify as a buffalo bullet. It has the penetration needed on broadside shoulder shots, and with it turned around as a solid can be used to back up the first shot from any angle. The 300 ESP MIGHT come up slightly short on severe first shot angled shots, but other than that, I would use it with comfort as a stand alone buffalo bullet, backed with it as a solid. Remember, never shoot once and wait to see what happens!

While walking back after knocking two buffalo out one morning, we ran across a group of pigs. I was loaded with the 225s and hammered one direct through the shoulders, it dropped to the shot, end of story. I caught a second pig running hard and hit it through the rear side, the bullet hit so hard and did so much damage the pig hit the ground and could not move from there, finishing shot only. Damage done was horrendous and permanent.......

Now that is all the time I have this morning to devote to this, and this covers what we did in 416 caliber, so soon as I can, will give you the scoop on .500 caliber......

To be Continued:

Great report so far! Will just have to for the rest. LOL...

Yep, that recounting reads like Homer's Odysseus goes on safari with Crocodile Dundee.
A heroic first chapter. And pictures too, as the red gods allow.
I want some .416/300grESP sized to .411.

Hmmm. All that shooting. Tsk. Tsk, Tsk. Was there a lack of hamburger in the area?
All kidding aside, sounds like a wonderful trip. I may have to reconsider going with my BLR in .450 to really test the modifications I've made.
Max

Ouch....... I tell you, it is not so nice getting older, but sure better than the alternative I agree. I think I must have cracked a few ribs on this hunt? I forgot how to walk or run without falling down. Rather comical, but had shot this buffalo with the 500 MDM, it went down at the shot, I was running to it for finishing, tripped on a root, face first, no time to brace, holding rifle with both hands, and landed full flat out on the rifle face down.... Ouch..... Little slow getting up mind you, but managed, and was lost for a bit (where am I? Where is that buffalo?) found the buff, and finished the mission. Did not seem to be hurt at the time, but the next day it started talking to me. And I swear it is getting no better. Whew....... Then within the next day or two, fell down again................

OK how about the rest of the story with the 500 MDM.............

After several forays with the 416 B&M I was down to only 19 rounds left, out of 60. So I figured to switch over to the 500 MDM for a few days.

The bullets I wanted to work with were as follows: 335 Lever Raptor 2700 fps, Talon Tipped, fit magazine, 350 ESP Raptors, Tipped, and Solids 2700 fps, 365 Lever Raptor No Talon Tips 2600 fps, 375 #13 Solids 2600 fps. Of course all had been tested previously, and some even used in the field previously as well. What I wanted to look at is would these velocities transfer to added "KnockDown" for lack of a better term, than what many of us had seen with the heavier Safari Raptors in this caliber. In the end, the answer is actually a bit mixed.

The very first afternoon Paul, Jaun and myself went after a big trophy bull that Paul had seen a few days before. I chose the 500 MDM for this, and the 350 ESP Raptors, first two Talon Tipped, and the next 2 as Solids. We did in fact find this bull, at the first round he turned to run, couple of steps, and I hit him on the point of the shoulder and he went down like struck by lighting on the spot. I was rather impressed with the bullet, and of course I had used this 350 ESP Raptor on several animals the year before with Brents Rifle (which he stole from me, as it used to be mine) with excellent success even on eland. So impressed, but not entirely surprised.

Then over the next several days I ran a mixed bag of things, but started off with the 335 Lever Raptor, seated deep and tipped to work in the magazine. Running right at 2700 I expected excellent results. After several buffalo hit with this bullet the results were mixed, not many dropped to the shot, most were able to run 10-15 yards, and of course before they could get that far I was hitting them again anyway. Penetration was there, performance was as good as it gets, some exits, some not, recovered a few, but just did not seem to have the knockout that the older 460 and new 450 Safari Raptors had.

Pretty much same story with the non tipped 365s.... Penetration good, some exits, nothing going far, 10-15 yds, but I continued to hammer anyway.

What few 350 ESP Raptors I had brought along just seemed to do some better overall as far as knockdown.

I had only brought 60 total rounds of 500 MDM, but Paul's carry rifle is a 500 MDM and he had PLENTY Of the older 460 NonCons, Safari Raptors, and I used a few of those as well. Paul had used these on something like 15-16 buffalo, mostly bigger bulls, and backup shots. He has not had a one of them take a step after one hit with these. Well, much to our surprise I was just not knocking them in the dirt, I mean immediately anyway. Nothing went further than 10 yds, but I was expecting a lot.

??????????

Buffalo! They are just not wired like anything else, and sometimes nothing you can shoulder fire will knock their dicks in the dirt, like it might other animals. God knows, this is why I love to shoot them, and absolutely the reason I shoot them until out of ammo....... HEH HEH..... But both Paul and I were somewhat and I will say somewhat disappointed. Oh, we got tremendous trauma, damage, tissue destruction, penetration, you name it, we got it, and could not possibly ask more of a bullet than what we were getting, even with the light fast 335s and others..... We studied every single possibility... Rifle? Same, same barrel, same velocity same everything as Paul's. Nose Projection? Nope, nixed that with the change to the 460s... In the very end, this is what we came up with.

Stress! Many of these buffalo we were shooting were under some tremendous stress. Food was short, and I mean very short. Burning that normally takes place in June, did not get done until August this year. This burning cycle removes old dry grass, that has little to no nutritional value, and promotes new grass growth with lots of nutrition. In some cases many of these buffalo were really have a very hard time of it, and loosing weight. Paul figures he will loose a good part of the herd this year, 10-15% because of this. Naturally the bigger tougher bulls are not going to be lost, but many of the 2-4 yr olds are going to suffer. We started taking notice that the more healthy animals were in many cases dropping to the shot with the 500 MDM, and the more stressed an animal was, then it seemed to soak up bullets. OF course this is just an observation on our part, but it sure held true in most all cases. This would have been opposite of what I would have thought, I would have thought the stressed animals would not be able to take the trauma as well, but it was just not the case. I had shot several larger cows, and the big bull with the 500 MDM and various bullets and they dropped at the shot. Stressed buffalo tended to give it a run for a few yards before giving up..........

Now another thing too..... I expect a lot, and sometimes I expect TOO MUCH.... So some of this is on me, and my psyche. I more than anyone understand how tough all buffalo are, and how much trauma and destruction they can soak up before quitting, but sometimes I forget that ............ and they never quit reminding me!!!!!!!!!!! You see, I fully expected this with a 416 caliber, regardless of bullet, but not the mighty 500!!! You see where I am going with that? Buffalo will keep you sorted out, and on the path, they don't give a damn sometimes what you hit them with, it will never be too much, rest assured.

I did get to shoot some pigs with these bullets, and none of them were able to take a step from where they were hit.... I reckon pigs are just not as tough as buffalo.... HEH HEH.....

In all reality all of the bullets did what they were supposed to do, trauma and destruction of tissue, and in many cases the lighter bullets fully penetrated broadsides, leaving cut caliber big holes in both sides, and one can't ask for more than that. Of the 460s fired, only one of those were recovered.

And as with the 416s above, most all these lighter .500s are designed for thin skinned game, if going after buffalo use the normal Safari Raptors, designed for buffalo specifically, and CEB has them in every major big bore caliber, I made sure of that, and of course they were the first ones done in all calibers, along with the Mighty BBW#13 Solids...............

Michael

Wow... This is a very interesting report and definately something we topically don't think about - that being the role environmental stress plays in the game we hunt. I believe this will cause some good conversation...

Welcome back Michael!

Looks like you have a fantastic trip

Thanks for chapter 2.
The bewildered emoticon is too bewildered to show its face. That is so bewildering:
Forget the rib binder, no good for you. Just go easy until they heal.

Cappy.... Yep... Interesting to say the least.

Thanks Seasons44

RIP... The bewildered, is bewildering? Ribs... About what I figured too, Easy? Shooting?
Will find out mid week or so, Having Sam and Lou pitch up this week, will be shooting from Wed on....... Ouch, maybe? Only hurts when I move or breath... LOL....

M

I'll let you shoot my 577, maybe that will limber you up.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I'll let you shoot my 577, maybe that will limber you up.

Ain't scart, I shoot the bitch till one of us breaks...



HEH.... Hey, don't pitch up here until Thursday or later... Lou is not coming until Wednesday Night
And not leaving until Tuesday.....

Ouch! Have you had them checked to determine whether you have bruised, cracked, or dislocated ribs? All painfull, just different ways of treating...

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ouch....... I tell you, it is not so nice getting older, but sure better than the alternative I agree. I think I must have cracked a few ribs on this hunt? I forgot how to walk or run without falling down. Rather comical, but had shot this buffalo with the 500 MDM, it went down at the shot, I was running to it for finishing, tripped on a root, face first, no time to brace, holding rifle with both hands, and landed full flat out on the rifle face down.... Ouch..... Little slow getting up mind you, but managed, and was lost for a bit (where am I? Where is that buffalo?) found the buff, and finished the mission. Did not seem to be hurt at the time, but the next day it started talking to me. And I swear it is getting no better. Whew....... Then within the next day or two, fell down again................

OK how about the rest of the story with the 500 MDM.............

After several forays with the 416 B&M I was down to only 19 rounds left, out of 60. So I figured to switch over to the 500 MDM for a few days.

The bullets I wanted to work with were as follows: 335 Lever Raptor 2700 fps, Talon Tipped, fit magazine, 350 ESP Raptors, Tipped, and Solids 2700 fps, 365 Lever Raptor No Talon Tips 2600 fps, 375 #13 Solids 2600 fps. Of course all had been tested previously, and some even used in the field previously as well. What I wanted to look at is would these velocities transfer to added "KnockDown" for lack of a better term, than what many of us had seen with the heavier Safari Raptors in this caliber. In the end, the answer is actually a bit mixed.

The very first afternoon Paul, Jaun and myself went after a big trophy bull that Paul had seen a few days before. I chose the 500 MDM for this, and the 350 ESP Raptors, first two Talon Tipped, and the next 2 as Solids. We did in fact find this bull, at the first round he turned to run, couple of steps, and I hit him on the point of the shoulder and he went down like struck by lighting on the spot. I was rather impressed with the bullet, and of course I had used this 350 ESP Raptor on several animals the year before with Brents Rifle (which he stole from me, as it used to be mine) with excellent success even on eland. So impressed, but not entirely surprised.

Then over the next several days I ran a mixed bag of things, but started off with the 335 Lever Raptor, seated deep and tipped to work in the magazine. Running right at 2700 I expected excellent results. After several buffalo hit with this bullet the results were mixed, not many dropped to the shot, most were able to run 10-15 yards, and of course before they could get that far I was hitting them again anyway. Penetration was there, performance was as good as it gets, some exits, some not, recovered a few, but just did not seem to have the knockout that the older 460 and new 450 Safari Raptors had.

Pretty much same story with the non tipped 365s.... Penetration good, some exits, nothing going far, 10-15 yds, but I continued to hammer anyway.

What few 350 ESP Raptors I had brought along just seemed to do some better overall as far as knockdown.

I had only brought 60 total rounds of 500 MDM, but Paul's carry rifle is a 500 MDM and he had PLENTY Of the older 460 NonCons, Safari Raptors, and I used a few of those as well. Paul had used these on something like 15-16 buffalo, mostly bigger bulls, and backup shots. He has not had a one of them take a step after one hit with these. Well, much to our surprise I was just not knocking them in the dirt, I mean immediately anyway. Nothing went further than 10 yds, but I was expecting a lot.

??????????

Buffalo! They are just not wired like anything else, and sometimes nothing you can shoulder fire will knock their dicks in the dirt, like it might other animals. God knows, this is why I love to shoot them, and absolutely the reason I shoot them until out of ammo....... HEH HEH..... But both Paul and I were somewhat and I will say somewhat disappointed. Oh, we got tremendous trauma, damage, tissue destruction, penetration, you name it, we got it, and could not possibly ask more of a bullet than what we were getting, even with the light fast 335s and others..... We studied every single possibility... Rifle? Same, same barrel, same velocity same everything as Paul's. Nose Projection? Nope, nixed that with the change to the 460s... In the very end, this is what we came up with.

Stress! Many of these buffalo we were shooting were under some tremendous stress. Food was short, and I mean very short. Burning that normally takes place in June, did not get done until August this year. This burning cycle removes old dry grass, that has little to no nutritional value, and promotes new grass growth with lots of nutrition. In some cases many of these buffalo were really have a very hard time of it, and loosing weight. Paul figures he will loose a good part of the herd this year, 10-15% because of this. Naturally the bigger tougher bulls are not going to be lost, but many of the 2-4 yr olds are going to suffer. We started taking notice that the more healthy animals were in many cases dropping to the shot with the 500 MDM, and the more stressed an animal was, then it seemed to soak up bullets. OF course this is just an observation on our part, but it sure held true in most all cases. This would have been opposite of what I would have thought, I would have thought the stressed animals would not be able to take the trauma as well, but it was just not the case. I had shot several larger cows, and the big bull with the 500 MDM and various bullets and they dropped at the shot. Stressed buffalo tended to give it a run for a few yards before giving up..........

Now another thing too..... I expect a lot, and sometimes I expect TOO MUCH.... So some of this is on me, and my psyche. I more than anyone understand how tough all buffalo are, and how much trauma and destruction they can soak up before quitting, but sometimes I forget that ............ and they never quit reminding me!!!!!!!!!!! You see, I fully expected this with a 416 caliber, regardless of bullet, but not the mighty 500!!! You see where I am going with that? Buffalo will keep you sorted out, and on the path, they don't give a damn sometimes what you hit them with, it will never be too much, rest assured.

I did get to shoot some pigs with these bullets, and none of them were able to take a step from where they were hit.... I reckon pigs are just not as tough as buffalo.... HEH HEH.....

In all reality all of the bullets did what they were supposed to do, trauma and destruction of tissue, and in many cases the lighter bullets fully penetrated broadsides, leaving cut caliber big holes in both sides, and one can't ask for more than that. Of the 460s fired, only one of those were recovered.

And as with the 416s above, most all these lighter .500s are designed for thin skinned game, if going after buffalo use the normal Safari Raptors, designed for buffalo specifically, and CEB has them in every major big bore caliber, I made sure of that, and of course they were the first ones done in all calibers, along with the Mighty BBW#13 Solids...............

Michael

. Then within the next day or two, fell down again............

I believe I have seen this behavior from you before, albeit there was no rifle in your hand rather some sort of glass or jar!!


I had used this 350 ESP Raptor on several animals the year before with Brents Rifle (which he stole from me, as it used to be mine)

Now listen we need to get this story straight as you are going to sully my fine reputation!
It went down with you offering me the rifle and me having to literally force you to take payment for it. Ever since that time you have been pushing this little guns and not the mighty MDM. Even with a little pressure about 500 you have come up with some new little 500 bastard. With the continuing falling down issues, either rifle or jar related, and i am wondering if there is a connection between small rifles and the falling down. Not accusing or calling names, just saying

Brent

Yeah, this falling down thing, I am not nearly as athletic as I used to be.
With my right side in pain, I am wondering if I can shoot or not? I did in Australia, I continued to bang away at buffalo... But here on the range now, I am not so sure? I also think its worse now than it was in Australia, or could be I am just a sissy, not sure? LOL..............

You well know how good the 500 MDM package is, but it is just not for everyone, especially those with little experience hand loading. These are my concerns with the 500 MDM, while not really anymore difficult than many other cartridges, many of the other B&Ms don't require much to properly work out. I consider the 500 MDM a true professional's cartridge/rifle combination. Which is why you have one.......... And the true story of the matter is this: We are sitting on the range that day, after you firing 20 or so rounds from that rifle, eyes poked out and wide, tongue hanging out like a puppy, and drooling slobber all over my damned rifle! After seeing that, what choice did I have but to let you take it home????



We are very very much looking forward to your upcoming visit buddy!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:Ouch....... I tell you, it is not so nice getting older, but sure better than the alternative I agree. I think I must have cracked a few ribs on this hunt? I forgot how to walk or run without falling down. Rather comical, but had shot this buffalo with the 500 MDM, it went down at the shot, I was running to it for finishing, tripped on a root, face first, no time to brace, holding rifle with both hands, and landed full flat out on the rifle face down.... Ouch..... Little slow getting up mind you, but managed, and was lost for a bit (where am I? Where is that buffalo?) found the buff, and finished the mission. Did not seem to be hurt at the time, but the next day it started talking to me. And I swear it is getting no better. Whew....... Then within the next day or two, fell down again................

Michael,
It only get's worse the older you get.
I went Bear hunting two weeks ago in the steep mountains here in Oregon.
The bad news is that I shot a 300 pounder about 300 yards across a clear cut, and it ran to the bottom of the canyon where it's full of black berries and blow down up to your chest.
I will leave out the details, but lets just say I still can't walk right. LOL!

G'day all, have only just arrived home after another very successful season and a very looong drive home.

It was yet again an immense pleasure to host my freinds Mike and Jaun to indulge in what is our favourite past time .... barrelling buffalo.

Don't quite know why Mike is being a little coy on divulging details on the new buffalo killing move, prototyped this season, called the "Jackie- Chan" !
It involves several barrel rolls on the ground before comming up like a jymnist with barrels ablaze. Maybe he just needs to fine tune it a bit before releasing it on the market.

Mike sorry to hear about the ribs, hope you get well soon.

The hot weather continued the day after you left AND THEN IT RAINED (QUITE HEAVILY) THE VERY NEXT DAY !!!!

Folks; the culmination of this hunt saw me racking up witnessing a total of over 100 buffalo killed over the past few seasons with C.E.B non-cons/raptors in .50 B&M, .500 M.D.M, .500 N.E, .474 B&M,.50 S.S, .416 Rem, .416 B&M & 9.3 B&M.

My conclusions will not be as scientific as Mikes but what I will say is that they just plain WORK !

Regardless of the cartridge you shoot these C.E.B's do what they're expected to do;
* Pentetrate (i have yet to see one fail to penetrate straight and for the distance expected)
* Create trauma (the amount of internal trauma created is tremendous)

They sure make a hunting guide's job easy when the hunter is loaded up with non-cons !

Paul

Excellent, figured you would be home yesterday, which is today here... Or some such nonsense with the time difference. We are just now recovering from the time issue..... Whew.... We have a difficult time when returning, not so much going........ Glad you made it home safe........

I cannot believe the rain.... I suppose Henry was wrong?

Don't be giving away my superb athletic abilities to roll around on the ground and come up blazing, you know not just anyone can do that!!!!!!!! Ouch....

quote:

My conclusions will not be as scientific as Mikes but what I will say is that they just plain WORK !

Hmmmm..... According to some on the African Forum Thread about CEBs I am just a backyard hillbilly, with no credit, or "accredited"........ HEH

quote:

They sure make a hunting guide's job easy when the hunter is loaded up with non-cons !

Andrew makes exactly the same claim.......... And that is as it should be........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

Don't quite know why Mike is being a little coy on divulging details on the new buffalo killing move, prototyped this season, called the "Jackie- Chan" !
It involves several barrel rolls on the ground before comming up like a jymnist with barrels ablaze. Maybe he just needs to fine tune it a bit before releasing it on the market.

Please tell me you got video of this!

quote:

Originally posted by 7MMNut:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

Don't quite know why Mike is being a little coy on divulging details on the new buffalo killing move, prototyped this season, called the "Jackie- Chan" !
It involves several barrel rolls on the ground before comming up like a jymnist with barrels ablaze. Maybe he just needs to fine tune it a bit before releasing it on the market.

Please tell me you got video of this!

7mm..... That was the first question I asked after I sorted out the problems..... Fortunately, for me, no it is not on video.....


M

Michael,

I know you don't like .375 caliber guns for Cape buffalo, but consider the following...THE BUNKER BUSTER...I'd like your thoughts.

I have a 375 Ackley Improved with a 26" barrel. I reload extensively (lifelong) and have experimented with many different powders - nearly all. And, I'm getting 2940 fps with 300 gr. CEB FN solids or Barnes FN Solids using Vv550, and with acceptable PSI - although IMO this is absolute maximum. Moreover, the accuracy from these bullets is best in my gun.

I've killed one buffalo with this gun using a 300 gr Failsafe bullet at 2875 fps muzzle velocity using N204. It was a one shot kill. I put the bullet through his sternum at ~50 yds. He reared up on his hind legs and dropped dead, even before I could get a second shot into him. The bullet had gone through his heart and stopped in the rumen. The bullet nose had been wiped off, and the bullet had essentially become a flat-nosed solid "wad cutter" weighing ~270 grs. I’m guessing the bullet nose had been totally wiped-off before it even entered the chest cavity.

I'm thinking, even more deadly, would be a FN CEB 300 gr solid (or Banes FN solid) at ~2940 fps muzzle velocity. The FN solid would enter the chest cavity, but totally intact and with greater momentum and energy content for creating a massive internal wound channel. Less energy would have been lost while traversing skin, muscle, sinew, and bone, when compared to any bullet that would open-up, expand, and/or lose mass. Unfortunately, once on the chest cavity the solid is not going to expand, but continue to create a long and narrow wound channel.

Basically, I’m thinking…what is the best bullet design for getting the maximum amount of momentum and kinetic energy into the chest cavity, where you want that bullet energy available to create the largest possible wound channel and maximum vital organ damage? - that is, the bunker buster bullet.

Just like a bunker buster bomb penetrates the bunkers fortified concrete wall and explodes within and causing the maximum amount of damage to the vital munitions within. The bunker buster bullet would expend all (and nearly all) its energy within the chest cavity of the buffalo where the vital organs reside. How does one do this? Obviously, we can't shoot delayed detonation bombs into animals - at least not yet. Could we have a delayed fragmentation bullet, which doesn't fragment until the chest/shoulder wall is completely penetrated?

I have some of the CEB HPs, but how do we delay fragmentation or shearing until the bullet has entered the chest cavity, or maybe just a nanosecond before the bullet enters the chest cavity?

Although on thin-skinned game this is likely less critical, it seems very important for a Cape buffalo - an animal encased in relatively large amounts of thick skin, abundant sinew, massive muscle, and big bones.

Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts. AIU

quote:

I'm thinking, even more deadly, would be a FN CEB 300 gr solid (or Banes FN solid) at ~2940 fps muzzle velocity. The FN solid would enter the chest cavity, but totally intact and with greater momentum and energy content for creating a massive internal wound channel. Less energy would have been lost while traversing skin, muscle, sinew, and bone, when compared to any bullet that would open-up, expand, and/or lose mass. Unfortunately, once on the chest cavity the solid is not going to expand, but continue to create a long and narrow wound channel.

AIU........

My very first thought on this was to tell you to use the NonCon HP...... First thought mind you. Then I considered two things.... 375 Caliber and Buffalo...... When knowing the blades of the HP are smaller, as caliber drops, and 375 is minor caliber when it comes to buffalo, and taking these into consideration, I can't find one bit of fault in your thinking at all. I believe that your thought process is intact, and I would concur with you that this would be a just dandy solution in that caliber. I love a good solid, and those are two fine choices in my opinion, and of course my nod would go to CEB. While the Barnes FN is a dandy design, and it works well, I cannot abide by their opinions since Barnes sold out, and the new Barnes "Sold Out" hunters and shooters with the decision to go to RN....

I can tell you something else as well. With my recent buffalo taken with my own 50 B&M Alaskan, and the first shot being the 365 NonCon HP, followed by the 405 Solids, I was more impressed with the Solid in this cartridge and it's lower velocity, and very excellent penetration. Would I hunt buffalo again with this lever gun, I would use solids only for the deepest penetration and destruction. Naturally if I could get a couple hundred fps more velocity from the lighter HP, I would use that again, but in this particular instance, I too would go with the solid. In my case it is velocity/trauma coming up short, even though I have the caliber, in your case you have a caliber issue, and in both cases, I like the solid idea. I like penetration, as we all know.

I shot a few buffalo with the 500 MDM and a very light 375 #13 Solid at 2600 fps. On a couple of these buffalo I used ONLY the little solid, and in all cases it hit hard and knocked the crap out of them. One took a hit, took off running and second shot caused a tremendously dramatic nose dive, end of story... I love good solids, they save the day.........

I find zero fault in your thinking, and I would do just that, and I have not put much thought into 375 along these lines, but I like it!................ Well done......

Michael

AIU,

Use the new 3-petal 275gr .375 caliber Safari Raptor Thick Skin bullets and the petals will reach into and through the vital organs on buffalo. The similar 3-petal 255gr .366 caliber Safari Raptor Thick Skin bullets worked for Michael in his 9.3 B&M.

Save the traditional 6-petal 275gr Safari Raptor bullets for plains game.

P.S. Only other question is whether your magazine will allow use of the bullet performance enhancing Talon Tips...

Cappy

Good point about the 3 blade version, and you are correct the larger blades do work better on buffalo, I concur, I used them in 9.3 and the larger blades did get into the chest cavity.

But in all honesty, I was not impressed with the caliber on buffalo, and the buffalo were not impressed. Dead... Of course, but there was no knockouts with them. With this in mind, I really like the way AIU thinks in these two minor calibers, I would just as soon hit them with a solid, and take all that penetration to assist in doing damage..... Makes pretty good sense to me, in these calibers, or a cartridge in larger caliber but slow velocity. We found the 400 #13 Solid in 45/70 to do a pretty good job on buffalo, for that cartridge. And I think the same in my levers in .500 caliber, that 405 Solid was jam up, hit hard, and drove plenty deep. So I could easy come around to the conclusion that if short on caliber, or short on velocity in larger caliber, a #13 Solid, or good North Fork Solid just might be a first class ticket...........

Michael