Jim

Oh yes, I grab them by the ears quite often. Starting to have a possible issue with that however, that 21 yr old of mine is getting to be a rather healthy boy! A bit taller than me, little heavier by about 20 lbs, not a oz of fat, arms about the size of my legs. Now I still have him "Buffaloed" somewhat, he is fully convinced I am crazy when I loose my temper and still just a little bit scared. But I am not sure how long that is going to last?

But he is also aware of the fact that I don't always play fair, I will grab a stick or rock if I need to!

HEH.....

Michael

How about some more "Low Velocity" 458 Impacts? That has peaked my interest just a bit. As we have already seen the little 300 Remington at 774 fps, I thought we must run it up some, work it a bit like we did the 300 Barnes Blue tippy TSX. So let's work our way up a bit. Again, these are fun to shoot. Nothing but little pop gun loads. I took no special care, no fillers, just dump 15-20-25 grs of 2400 in the 458 B&M Super Short and shoot! Iron sights today, scope was busted, so removed it the other day. I will play with this some more and look at accuracy as well. Sure is fun I can tell you that. Like a fat 22.







At 1300 fps and 1283 impacts the bullet started to perform pretty good. I could tell a difference in trauma to the medium. Penetration was good. I remember many years ago I tested this little 300 Remington in 45/70, against the Hornady 300 at the time. Not even sure if Hornady makes that now? Anyway, the jest of the matter was that I thought the Remington was a better bullet.

Michael

And the end of this mornings work.

OK, the Blue Tip 300 TSX did very well at the lower velocities this week. I figured we best take a look at the normal everyday 300 Barnes TSX. 20/2400 brought us a bit more velocity, but either the Blue Tip is doing a lot more work than I figured it would, or we have a tad different construction of the bullet. Perhaps that Blue tip is getting things started at low velocity, as I doubt there would be much difference in construction of these two bullets.

Also of note, the one bullet that did not expand at all was not stable, turned sideways, backwards, and veered low off course. The one that started to open was more stable.




Now the two in comparison, as you may note the blue tip Barnes opened up well at much lower velocity than the TSX, at higher velocity!

Michael,

I keep thinking that the 458 SS looks like a really fun sexy lil thing. Pleased to see the "fun load " results are still slammers with the proper bullet - things still working according to the PLAN of Doc Michael - (use the proper bullet , dam it)

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

Oh yes, I grab them by the ears quite often. Starting to have a possible issue with that however, that 21 yr old of mine is getting to be a rather healthy boy! A bit taller than me, little heavier by about 20 lbs, not a oz of fat, arms about the size of my legs. Now I still have him "Buffaloed" somewhat, he is fully convinced I am crazy when I loose my temper and still just a little bit scared. But I am not sure how long that is going to last?

But he is also aware of the fact that I don't always play fair, I will grab a stick or rock if I need to!

HEH.....

Michael

Age and treachery will triumph over youth and enthusiasm.

SSR

I have found in recent years that the perfect tool for adult child disipline is a Tazer.
Gotta love Technology

Cheers, John

I feel much better about the NorthFork Solids I just ordered after seeing their penetration tests done here. Ofcourse the NonCons may just be the perfect bullet for 99% of what I shoot.

nice work on the low speed .458s ..

ya'll know that "super cavitation" takes places at like 60MPH, right? when water is compressed enough to release the disolved gases?

hypersonic bow wave is what happens, really...

Avoiding the danger signs again and thinking...Non con is kind of non descript.
What do you think of FNS
Fragmenting Nose Solid?
FNP Fragmentation Nose Penetrator?
Or T for Tip instead of Nose? FTS or FTP.
Just some thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I feel much better about the NorthFork Solids I just ordered after seeing their penetration tests done here. Ofcourse the NonCons may just be the perfect bullet for 99% of what I shoot.

As well you should Andy. Basically as far as I am concerned, and for all I give a damn about, there is North Fork and Cutting Edge. While I will take advantage of some of the others to suit MY purposes, not theirs, when I gotta have the real deal--North Fork and Cutting Edge BBW#13s. As far as I care the other bullet companies are traitorous to performance for other purposes.

Jeffe, I am taken a bit with those low velocity loads, has peaked my interest as a way to get the girls into big bores and have fun while at it. Those 300s fit the bill perfectly as well.

Yeah, I am with you on cavitation!

Boomy, thinking too much again.

HEH....

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Boomy, thinking too much again.

HEH....

M

I've started thinking. I bought one of the Remington Spartans in .45/70 and would like a good bullet to use in it. So far, have settled on the Hornady 325gr red-tipped bullet due to good accuracy from this double-barreled beast. Your use of the Barnes blue-tipped TSXs has got me to thinking of using them instead. I know that some have misgivings about using Barnes bullets in double guns, but at the lower pressures of the .45/70, etc., it may be doable.

quote:

when I gotta have the real deal--North Fork and Cutting Edge BBW#13s. As far as I care the other bullet companies are traitorous to performance for other purposes.

I believe that S&H Super Precision SHAARCs deserves consideration for inclusion in the group of real deal bullets.

I sent a PM but I wanted to say on open forum how well the NonCons are performing. I don't have pictures, but the groups are the best I have ever shot with my lady's rifle(375H&H). I am getting 2700+fps with 78.5gr H380 and still no signs of more than normal pressures!

I am ready to get rid of all my factory ammo and load exclusively NonCons and NF solids. Perhaps I should try some CEB Solids too. I should be able to use the same load as for the NonCons, right?

Andy

Thanks for the low-velocity tests, Michael. Just what I've been wanting to see to satisfy my curiosity!

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
I believe that S&H Super Precision SHAARCs deserves consideration for inclusion in the group of real deal bullets.

My last Cape buffalo and I would agree

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
I believe that S&H Super Precision SHAARCs deserves consideration for inclusion in the group of real deal bullets.

My last Cape buffalo and I would agree

Oh yes, you will get zero argument from me on that. I agree 100%. They keep slipping my mind as last time I talked to Agent J he said he was not concentrating much on the big bores and had a lot going on with smaller bore bullets. Not saying out of the big bores, just very busy with these other projects.

An excellent design, the SHARC fin bands are extremely excellent, nose profile excellent, J has the radius down perfect, great big large meplat most of the time on the ones I have tested, 70-75%. Always 100% dead straight.

Please overlook, my oversight on that.

M

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I sent a PM but I wanted to say on open forum how well the NonCons are performing. I don't have pictures, but the groups are the best I have ever shot with my lady's rifle(375H&H). I am getting 2700+fps with 78.5gr H380 and still no signs of more than normal pressures!

I am ready to get rid of all my factory ammo and load exclusively NonCons and NF solids. Perhaps I should try some CEB Solids too. I should be able to use the same load as for the NonCons, right?

Andy

Andy

Yes, I find all my CEB BBW#13s in a hole at 50 yds---IF I DO MY PART! Rifle/cartridge/bullets most capable, MDM, well sometimes I ain't xactly perfect!

Answer---If you work your load up with the heavier solid (BBW#13s The NonCon is the solid--with a HP)then use the same load for the NonCon--then yes you can use the same load, the NonCon will be only a few fps faster--25 fps + r Minus! Weight pushes pressures. NonCon will be less pressure than the solid. One can add to the NonCon to increase velocity--a gr or two or so. Then in many cases the NonCon POI will rise slightly above the Solid, but windage still correct, and equaling the pressures of the Solid.

For instance---458 B&M 18 inch gun currently taking to Zim and RSA. Primary Bullet--420 NonCon with 78/AA 2520 at 2250 fps--450 BBW#13 Solid 77/AA 2520 2215 fps. Same POI at 50. Now this is a CRUNCH and MUNCH heavy compressed load. Pressures equal on both--but since I have used this in Africa before, in hot conditions, in all sorts of conditions, I can live with crunch and munch compression. When I get back I am looking into RL 10X a bit more, can get down to 68-70 grs and equal the AA 2520---but this has a different POI than all my other bullets I am using on this trip--370 BBW#13 NonCon--400 BBW#13 Solid--400 North Fork, and 480 BBW#13 Solid. Not only that, but had a huge difference in different kegs of RL 10X. But, using 10X in the 500 MDM. And it loves it. I have burned about 6-7 lbs of 10X in the last month in these two rifles! Just about burned this entire new 5 lb keg up yesterday! Then was burning the old keg up to a point I was almost out. When I checked the pressures of the new keg, was over the top in 458 B&M to 70000 +. Dropped down 2 grs to equal. In the 500 MDM had to drop 3 grs of powder to equal out the old keg. Must watch these things when changing kegs of powder, even in the same lot number!

OK, how did I get off on that tangent, I thought we were talking about something else?

Hmmmm?

M

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
I've started thinking. I bought one of the Remington Spartans in .47/70 and would like a good bullet to use in it. So far, have settled on the Hornady 325gr red-tipped bullet due to good accuracy from this double-barreled beast. Your use of the Barnes blue-tipped TSXs has got me to thinking of using them instead. I know that some have misgivings about using Barnes bullets in double guns, but at the lower pressures of the .45/70, etc., it may be doable.

Prof242

I agree, I was very pleased with the low velocity performance of the blue tips--For sure I think you need to give them a go.

If someone will remind me--well, maybe I will do that this week--low velocity 325 Hornadys--I have several boxes. Do the same thing, with 2400 in the Super Short--. I will try and do that.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Yes, I find all my CEB BBW#13s in a hole at 50 yds---IF I DO MY PART! Rifle/cartridge/bullets most capable, MDM, well sometimes I ain't xactly perfect!

Answer---If you work your load up with the heavier solid (BBW#13s The NonCon is the solid--with a HP)then use the same load for the NonCon--then yes you can use the same load, the NonCon will be only a few fps faster--25 fps + r Minus! Weight pushes pressures. NonCon will be less pressure than the solid. One can add to the NonCon to increase velocity--a gr or two or so. Then in many cases the NonCon POI will rise slightly above the Solid, but windage still correct, and equaling the pressures of the Solid.

M

That's been my experience and yet another reason that the #13 solid/Non-con combo makes sense.

Hi Michael,

I've truly enjoyed all of your efforts .. In particular with the " 45/70 ". I believe there are more individuals with that particular caliber, that meets their " Hunting " spec's (Large Bear / Elk / Buffalo / Bison / Hogs).

On that note .. Do you have any thoughts of testing Non-con " 12 Gauge Slugs / Paradox Loads " (High vs Low Velocity Comparison)???

NON-con SLUGS

Again, it may be of great interest to those of us (large audience) with " 12 Gauge " (3 inch Shell & loads) Shotguns, with Rifled Barrels,(Shotgun only Hunting areas/ Non-Lead Restriction).

I've also read " Hubels " thread with great interest, as well.

PAPI

PAPI,
That CEB slug looks like a winner!
I was not aware of that one, need to know the diameter, will look for it ...

And I am hot for a CEB .395 bullet too, thanks to Doc M's inspirational research at MIB.
I am waiting for prof242, Max, to wake up from sleeping on this idea overnight, might as well repeat this idea here, thanks to Saeed for the bandwidth:

Has anyone tried the CEB Flat Base Hunting bullet, .308/150gr/165gr. Looks sweet to me:
************************************************

Max, and Doc M,
It came to me in a dream:

For the .395 Family,
we need a bullet with 0.750" or less of nose projection, and 0.400" or more of base projection.
Average that combo: 0.750" + 0.400" = 1.150" total bullet length

We need a .395-caliber bullet that is 1.150" long.

CEB DGBrass bullets:
Weight would probably be very close to 230-grains for a Brass NonCon hollowpoint, and maybe 255 grains for a BBW brass FN solid.

But hold my horses!

CEB also makes a copper Flat Base hunting bullet that is a beauty:
Listed only in .308 150-grain and 165-grain:

.308/150-grain:



Maybe we could get something made up in one or all of these three types and ask for the bullet to be 1.150" long and let the weight fall where it may.
As long as it can be seated and crimped somewhere with 0.750" or less of nose sticking out.
Of course you could always seat deeper without a crimp:

FBH Flat Base Hunting Bullet
DGBR Dangerous Game Brass Solid Bullets
DGBR-HP Dangerous Game Brass Hollow Point Bullets





Letter Rip

That is not a BBW #13 but close
A 900 grain 12 bore out of a 3.5" magnum shell at 1500 fps would be awesome and not far off the 900 grain 600 caliber low velocity performance. A 825 ish grain low velocity non con could be an awesome hog grenade/smasher.

quote:

Originally posted by PAPI:
Hi Michael,

I've truly enjoyed all of your efforts .. In particular with the " 45/70 ". I believe there are more individuals with that particular caliber, that meets their " Hunting " spec's (Large Bear / Elk / Buffalo / Bison / Hogs).

On that note .. Do you have any thoughts of testing Non-con " 12 Gauge Slugs / Paradox Loads " (High vs Low Velocity Comparison)???

NON-con SLUGS

Again, it may be of great interest to those of us (large audience) with " 12 Gauge " (3 inch Shell & loads) Shotguns, with Rifled Barrels,(Shotgun only Hunting areas/ Non-Lead Restriction).

I've also read " Hubels " thread with great interest, as well.

PAPI

[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
That is not a BBW #13 but close
A 900 grain 12 bore out of a 3.5" magnum shell at 1500 fps would be awesome and not far off the 900 grain 600 caliber low velocity performance. A 825 ish grain low velocity non con could be an awesome hog grenade/smasher.

It is a BBW design! These were made for Peter's 12 bore doubles over in Denmark.

Sam

How about some input from the terminal ballistics forum, this thread is as big as some entire forums:

An idea for a .395 bullet based on the CEB Flat Base Hunting Bullet:
I really like that band structure whether in copper or brass.
A generic light weight bullet to fit 5 different .395 chamberings.
In brass it might go as light as 230 grains for a hollow point, heavier for the solid.

A copper hollow point with higher BC nose shape might still be pretty light if kept down to 1.150" length overall.

The meplat for the 2 cross-hatched FN nose shapes is 68% of caliber.

The meplats for the hollow point nose shapes are smaller, for BC sake, for varmints, African plains game, and North American game.

For a 7 to 8 pound .395 Ruger Max or .395 H&H.

Yes a great design from the Bastard bullet works design team
What do you think of a 900 grain version made from brass and the #13 nose profile?
900 grains is almost 2 ounces or 2.05 ounces and factory 2 ounce loads are 1300 fps so you can have some loads to start from. Maybe make the non con a 1 3/4 oz. As to use those loads.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
That is not a BBW #13 but close
A 900 grain 12 bore out of a 3.5" magnum shell at 1500 fps would be awesome and not far off the 900 grain 600 caliber low velocity performance. A 825 ish grain low velocity non con could be an awesome hog grenade/smasher.

It is a BBW design! These were made for Peter's 12 bore doubles over in Denmark.

Sam

Page 163: This thread may well be never ending, not TERMINAL!


And what was the actual caliber of those 12 gauge slugs?

Hi RIP,

Don't know much , other than what " I " have to rely on .. others expertise or first hand experience with " Tested Data ".
http://forums.nitroexpress.com...=0&page=0#Post171630

I'm personally interested on what can be done " Loaded in a 3 inch Case/Shell".

PAPI

Papi,
Your 12ga. Elephant load has some nice "Bark" to it. Nicely done.

Cheers, John

Wasnt Peter doing Paradox 12 ga?

SSR

It's " PETER " doing the testing ..

quote:

" I " have to rely on .. others expertise or first hand experience with " Tested Data ".

However, I do have a vested interest in the " Testing Data "..., other than for Hunting " Elephants ".

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1036801/m/8301045251
ZOMBIES/ALIENS

PAPI

RIP: Hmm? Morning already?
Sunday is church day and I had a lot to do.
As to your drawing RIP, I like it. The 230gr should be an excellet express bullet. If it ends up weighing a bit more, so be it.

Michael: I hope I haven't added to your workload by suggesting the 325gr Hornady test. The factory ammo has shown excellent accuracy in my Baikal.

An aside, I'm in the process of building my own "poor man's double" using a 12ga Stoeger Uplander with screw-in chokes. Reason for the screw-ins is to be able to use rifled chokes. The large brass bullet in 800+ grains would seem to give me all the recoil I could handle. I probably should settle for something like the 525 grainer.
Max

Good deal, Max,

CEB Flat Base Hunting Hollow Point is a beauty.

230-grain Brass NonCon and whatever it weighs to same linear specs in Copper, it will still be fast and light, and very NonCon!
At 3000 fps from our .395-caliber "big bores,"
very NonConventional indeed.

CEB: 814-345-6690

www.cuttingedgebullets.com

Who's going to call first, after the holiday, Doc M, you, or me?

Goodness, you guys were busy yesterday, for a Sunday! I have lot's of catching up to do.


Cross

The Super Shorts have always been amazing to me. Tiny little things they are. Like many of the B&Ms, you have to put your hands on them to really understand what they are. There is nothing out there to compare with, nothing like them anywhere. God if Winchester had a brain they would do these. The wonderful thing about all the super shorts is that in particular in .500 caliber and some in .474 one will be able to work with all the handgun bullets out there, I know the upper end velocity for terminals, and this makes them very versatile. Now with the new North Fork and CEB BBW#13s designed specifically for these cartridges, well you take them all to another level of performance! And yes, once again, it comes down to the bullet in the end. One can have fine and wonderful rifles, one can have either great cartridges, or almost great cartridges, but without a successful bullet, they cannot survive, they cannot live up to their potential, and they cannot complete the mission! It must be a combination to be successful. Platform! Cartridge! Bullet! My B&Ms are designed around the "Platform", then I needed a cartridge that would make that platform perform, and then we had to have excellent bullets to make the cartridge perform and complete my missions in the field. I have all these things now!



Andy, yes, North Forks, BBW#13s, Sharcs, Best of the Best!


PAPI

I really don't have a proper 12 gauge platform. While I have a few shotguns, I don't even bother to load shotguns. I also banned shotguns from the range as well, the wads like to tear into the acoustic foam!

RIP

Those big copper 12 ga, like Sam said, a special run for Peter and his 12 ga rifles. It's a big hollow base bullet, reducing weight to 587 grs, .715 diameter, and 70% meplat.



Also, you are getting out of my area of expertise with the CEB Copper hunting bullets with the seal tite bands. And to keep confusion at a minimum--Passing from you, to me, then to Dan, I think it would be far better and more precise for you to contact Dan direct on this one. I will do anything to help out, and think it better that I stand to the side and help to reduce any confusion at all on exactly what you want with these. I will grease the skids some however and speak with Dan and get you introduced.

BBW#13s I will be happy to handle of course, since we have those specs pretty much standardized now.

I know Dan and his group shoot a lot of LONG RANGE with those bullets, since long range is 50 yards to me, I really have not done anything with them, and also most of those currently are super high BC and small caliber, which peaks my interest, none. If there were something available in a useful bore size I would test them.

Prof

No man, my work load got a lot lighter on Saturday when I finally packed the 500 MDM and 458 B&M with final shoot before leaving for Africa. Finished, done, loaded, packed rifles and ammo, now for all the other stuff. Hoping I have room for some clothing, as it might be a bit chilly at night running around camp naked!

I might play with some terminals on those 325 today, but most certainly in the next day or so. Now I have tested these at higher velocities. I will look on the other computer, next, for the photos of that and post.

Michael

Prof

Here is some work I did some time ago with the 325 Flex at higher velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Prof

Here is some work I did some time ago with the 325 Flex at higher velocities.

The inconsistancy documented here is why premium bullets were developed:
Nosler partitions,
various 'bonded' bullets,
monometal expanding bullets,
and now monometal nose-fragmenters.

Tanz

I agree. The loads used in the 458 B&M and higher velocity I can follow the logic.
2462 IMpact--10-12 inches, starting to breakup. Lots of expansion, less penetration
2302 Impact--14 inches, less expansion no breakup, little more penetration
2175 Impact--Less expansion little more penetration again.

But then the test with the 45/70 and 1789 Impact and 9 inches??? Should have been more. And, based on what I just did this morning at extremely low velocity all I might add was some sort of hard spot in the test medium on that one. ???????

M

quote:

some sort of hard spot in the test medium on that one. ???????

Perhaps between the tester's ears??? :-)

PS: Happy page 163!

quote:

The inconsistancy documented here is why premium bullets were developed:
Nosler partitions,
various 'bonded' bullets,
monometal expanding bullets,
and now monometal nose-fragmenters.

Fragment and shear do have different connotations; I believe with the stupidity of the international anti-gun crowd and their lackey government officials that we’ll want to forgo using this reference.