Now let me give you a sample of all them at the different velocities tested.







Michael

Now some time ago, don't recall exactly, but I bought 500 of those cheap little 300 gr hollow point Remingtons from Midway. Have not really played with them much at all. A couple of loads with 2400 in the Super Short at 1800-1900 fps and so forth. But since I have them I quickly threw two together on the low velocity test. Had I thought about it, I would have tested these with the others, and will probably do that tomorrow, or Saturday.

Not bad for a cheap little play bullet, at least so far!





Michael

MM,
You, sir, are a gentleman. My thanks! Fantastic photos, and surprising results... these, in a pop gun .458 load, would do the number on piggies!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now let me give you a sample of all them at the different velocities tested.







Michael

and the BC makes them FAR better than a 405 rem for light loads!

I don't have "Feelings" I don't "THINK IT" No Hunches, or Premonitions, gut feelings, and no conjecture. Here's the deal for those that do have "Feelings" or "THINK they know something.





















ENOUGH

If you pull out that smurf tip it should be good in the 45-70 lever for after the first shot.

NO WAIT, Not Enough;









































































I DON"T KNOW GUYS--- I am having this "FUNNY FEELING""

Give me a break! Good God, Theory my ass!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
and the BC makes them FAR better than a 405 rem for light loads!

Jeffe

NOt too bad eh?

M

And people have the gall to say your media isn't consistant or giving good results.

And you posted all that before I could post.

IMO the only fact that is important in the Barnes case is that round nose bullets consistently feed in a certain brand of rifle(s) and flat nose don't. Having decided that feeding in that brand of rifle(s) was of upmost importance, Barnes chose to go round nose. Barnes then went out to find experts who would refute the terminal ballistics data being generated by replicatable experiments between round nose and flat nose bullets ( primarily 65% to 70%)to support their case. It's called observation bias.

Not being able to find treminal ballistic experts who would support their case, they found other experts in other fields who used a "halo effect" to speak "out of their area of expertise". While everyone is entitled to an opinion, I would insist an informed opinion, claiming or infering expertise in a field B while having expertise in field A is claiming being omnipotent.

IMO the people who participated in the Barnes excerise did real damage to the respect and integrigty they have built up over the years. The best they can do now is say, "I have an opinion but it is unsupported. I should not have spoken on the subject of terminal ballistics (or in one case calimed that feeding was more important than all other factors). The most likely responses wiil be run and hide until the whole thing goes away or dig the hole deeper by defending original comments.

From here on out it's all ego and emotions on the Barnes and so called experts side. The shame is that all Barnes had to say was: "Warning, there have been reports that our flat nose bullets do not reliably feed in brand X rifles. To accomodate brand X we have introduced a line of round nose bullets. We will continue to make and destribuite our line of flat nose bullets."

Beware, this site is not the only source of data on the side of flat nose bullets. Arfican manufacturers and Australian manufacturers are also generating design and data.

On a personal note, I really respected the founder of brand X rifles and would like to believe that this feeding issue would not be occuring were he still running the company.

Once again, IBT, well stated, spoken, and the "Ring Of Reason" to it. As we all know, I have a passion for this sort of thing. What we do here is being repeated around the world even as we talk about it now. It is being repeated in Africa as well. Not only by reputable bullet makers there, which have been at it longer than we have, but by many others that carry a lot of weight in this arena. While I cannot go into detail, rest assured there are serious individuals on the African Continent that are studying this issue damn near exactly as we have been and are continuing to study, that are not happy at all with the results they have been getting with certain RN bullets, many of which are the professional shooters that have been touted so many times in the past of shooting 5 million elephants with RN and never had a problem. Seems these same folks don't exactly share that thought, and are looking for something better, because the old crap really does not work so good as it has been touted to be! Imagine that? LOL.... Full Circle, it always comes around!

M

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Good Morning Everybody.

There is quite a lot of new information on this thread I need to read after being out of the country for 22 days and having to catch up at work.

First of all nothing shocking to report bullet wise from Africa.

A 180 Grain Partition from my 300 Win Mag was used in a one shot kill on my leopard. He was dead under the tree.

The first buffalo I shot was with my 375 H&H at about 75 yards. I was a little higher than the buffalo and he was quartering towards me. The 300 Grain North Fork soft traveled nearly the length quartering a big male buffalo. I thought for sure we would find the bullet but never did. I do not think it exited but must have fallen out when we field dressed it. There was a follow up the a CEB BBW 300 Grain Solid. That bullet passed through. The buffalo ran less than 100 yards and was dead when we found him. There was quite of bit of internal damage. I reaaly wish we found the North Fork.

I wrote a little about the second buffalo already. It was shot through the shoulders with a 500 Grain North Fork Cup Point from my 470 Nitro. It did not take a single step and was dead before it hit the ground. That bullet passed through and made a terrific (or horrific if you were the buff) wound channel. I followed up with a 500 Grain CEB BBW solid through the spine and out of the chest. Of course that was a pass through.

I plan to test some more Non Cons out of my 470. I lost some of my test data from the last test. After shooting I quickly found the bullets and did not make many notes. My lovely wife who loves to pick up messes that I make cleaned up all of the newspaper and I was unable to determine where the petal separated and so on. But there was some impressive damage even at low velocity. I do want to duplicate the test.

As far as the Barnes ad maybe D'Arcy will comment as he does post on AR from time to time. His reputation is good and I would hope a $15,000+ rifle would feed a flat nose bullet. My CZ with just $1000 worth of work will feed 100% of the time under any condition.

Keep up the good work Michael. You and Sam have even converted some of the Double Rifle guys. That is an accomplishment.

Now for testing some of the CEB in my 450-400. I had it for sale and received no serious offers. A couple of months later when I received the CEB bullets I changed my mind about selling it.

MIKE

As you see we all got caught up in the BS that was listed on the barnes site. No one more so than me! Just aggravating is all!

After bitching about you getting down here to tell us your results, and then passed, but not forgotten! So I am back to you, and the more important part of "Terminal Ballistics" NEWS FROM THE FIELD!!!!!! The reason we do what we do!

OK, let me get this out of the way first. This is your first leopard hunting? I assume, have not heard you talk much about it. If it is your first leopard hunting, I don't like you! Not even a little bit! I am your friend, nothing we can do about that, BUT I DON"T LIKE YOU! Shooting a BIG ASS leopard on your first leopard hunt! That's BS, Big leopard too of all things! It may take me some time to get over this and like you again!

OK I am over it now, I like you again! Very Nice Leopard--You know my story too well, no need to repeat that I SPENT 70 F*&K*&^ NIGHTS IN A STINKING LEOPARD BLIND COLD, TIRED, AGGRAVATED, PISSED, UNCOMFORTABLE, NEED TO PEE, NEED TO DRINK, NEED To----do a lot more than sit in a damned blind, before finally getting one.......... I swore not to repeat that! Hmmmm! OK OK OK.....I HATE LEOPARDS-_End of story!

180 Partition did just the right amount of shock and awe, and of course damage in all the right places for that thin skinned spotted devil! Excellent.

375 caliber, 300 North Fork--CPS? Premium Bonded? Since you seem to be on a CPS trip, I assume Cup Point? OK, follow up with the 300 BBW#13. Pass through, excellent, doing it's job. Dead buffalo. Nice old buff too. Congrats.

Love it when the buff drops in the spot. The North Fork did the damage is sounds like. BBW#13 Solid in and out breaking spine, did it's job as well.

Sounds like to me you had a very successful trip, and no issues with bullet failures, and superior performance from all bullets used. Don't get any better.

Yes, go to work on the NonCons while I am in the field. Honest to god, you, RIP, Jim, IBT, Tanz, Jeffe, 465HH, and others must not quit just because I am out a few days. Get some work done on your own down there. Do you need me to send anything your way so you can continue, let me know.

Did I send you some .409s????

Michael

It was my first leopard and we had to sit in a blind for over 2 1/2 hours in the daylight before shooting one. It seemed like forever.

The the 375 was the bonded bullet. I do like the North Fork Premium Bonded.

You did send me some of the .409 for my 450-400. I had the barrels slugged at .4105 when I bought it so those bullets should work fine.

Hello,

When I was growing up the standard for penetration velocity was between 2100 and 2400 fps. These bullets have shattered that myth.
My guestion is this:
Have you noticed a max velocity that these bullets can take before they fail?
I was thinking about the 338 Ultra and with 200 gr. bullets could easily top 3000 fps. If they could hold together the penetration could be very good.
Best wishes for your success on your next hunt.

John

Michael,

Remember this?

"Solid or Full-Patch bullets. This is a matter of the very utmost importance, yet it's a never-ending source of amazement to me how utterly indifferent the vast majority of men are about the design of the bullets they use. It does not appear to occur to them that they could do anything about it if the bullets didn't behave themselves too well. They appear to be quite satisfied with whatever the makers care to supply and never think that the makers are not themselves hunters and will rarely alter their bullet design unless they receive complaints from men who actually use them."

African Rifle and Cartridges
John Taylor
Page 262


I bet Taylor would be thrilled with the current Monolithic Flat nose solids.

MM,
you are already on a tear.. so, heck, lemme give it a spin...

remember the old yarn about it taking 50 yards for a bullet to "go to sleep" .. that must explain why you get such aweful penetration... just dead straight, no fishtailing about in the guts?

and the HORRIBLE penetration with heavy mono's in a 1:20 twist guide gun .. my my, whatever could you do with such a horrible, unstable bullet....

BULLOCKS.. you've blown the lid of many a myth, sir. My hat is off to you

Michael,

I didn't "QUOTE" your post above but that's an example of why you should compile all of this information with the photos and have a book printed.

I would certainly buy it! Far, far more valuable and useful than just about any reloading manuals I have on my shelves.

Seriously

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Michael,

I didn't "QUOTE" your post above but that's an example of why you should compile all of this information with the photos and have a book printed.

I would certainly buy it! Far, far more valuable and useful than just about any reloading manuals I have on my shelves.

Seriously

Me too. I want an autographed copy with the MM in a black lab coat on the cover!

But to pull this off is going to require a serious editor to work with MM so that the "real" work of knowledge acquisition doesn't slow down. Issue it with an accompying DVD showing the actual tests and field results. Yearly updates will have to be issued so best to publish it in a loose leaf three ring binder. For those who prefer it an electronic version is necessary. I'd want both, the hard copy for the night table, and the electronic copy for serious study.

600 Overkill

900gr Flatnose solid at a measely 2161fps

76 FREAKIN INCHES OF PENETRATION!!!!!!

Wonder what they would do at 2400!

Doc M,
You ever put something together in print or down load, I'll damn sure buy it.
I've learned more on this tread than in my last half century.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
MM,
You, sir, are a gentleman. My thanks! Fantastic photos, and surprising results... these, in a pop gun .458 load, would do the number on piggies!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now let me give you a sample of all them at the different velocities tested.







Michael

They truly should do a job on piggies.
A little over two decades ago I used a 44 RemMag pistol (250 grain at 1400fps) to drop a nice Warthog. It ran 50-100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
It was my first leopard and we had to sit in a blind for over 2 1/2 hours in the daylight before shooting one. It seemed like forever.

The the 375 was the bonded bullet. I do like the North Fork Premium Bonded.

Oh, I am back to not liking you again! OK, I will spill it, sometime back in the 90s I was hunting with a chap in Namibia. I did not know it, but Namibian leopards are extremely elusive, having very ugly experiences with man for the last 100 yrs or so. So it's inbreed in the bastards to be spooky! So out of 14 days, something along the lines of 10 of those were spent in a blind, or some hide out around bait anyway. Several of them! Now we would get in that damn hide out at 4 pm, and not come out until 7 am the next morning! That's 15 hours plus or minus! Sometimes just laying on a damn COLD ROCK all night. Now I can sleep through just about anything, even several hurricanes right here, and I did sleep on rocks, in sorta blinds and so forth. Not very well, on occasion there would be this huge poke in the ribs, wake up ready to shoot, to find out I was snoring and needed to shut up! I hate blinds and being still anyway. This was not one bit of fun! But, I was determined, and wanted those spots really bad. So we kept it up. One night had a big leopard catch us in the blind, laying mostly in the open on a cold ass rock. Could hear him coming a long way out, then nearly stumbled on our feet on the back side! He did not take the same route he did the night before, and busted us! He was pissed, circled all night long until the next morning and left the area! Another night we left early, only to come back the next morning and leopard tracks in the make shift blind! And the story continues.

Determined enough to make a plan for the very next year, even before my feet hit the ground back home. I wanted those spots! So, we had been hunting for a few years with the Robbs out in Utah. Hounds and cougars and bears! Best dog men in the world far as I care. So I figured a leopard was just a spotted cougar, and dogs would put one in a corner for me! I hate blinds. So we found Roy Sparks over in the RSA, and made a plan to get Roy up to Namibia, and then to also take a couple of the Robb boys over for backup, and we enjoyed their company as well. Many of you may know these fellows, both Roy and the Robb boys! So we had a party the next year, Roy, his men, dogs, the PH in Namibia, my no shooting hunting buddy, and two of the Robb boys. The very first morning my hunting buddy busted a BIG leopard, his first morning in Africa too! I am not going to lie, that was MY LEOPARD! I was quite sure of that fact, and while I was happy this was going to work no doubt about it, I admit I was a tad pissed off at his attitude! First morning in Africa, takes a big leopard before lunch time, and he damned sure had not earned it! Oh well, good anyway, I knew I was getting mine if he got one that easy! First few days were fine, but as time wore on this crowd started to get on each others nerves. Little disagreements, little bickering back and forth, and I ended up being the "Peace Keeper". Now it was really not much fun at all. Half way through 16 days I was getting a bad attitude myself, and it was no fun keeping the peace between this crowd, and chasing spotted ghosts every single day! I think at one time we had 15 plus baits out. Every morning we would hit a fresh track, turn the dogs out, and before we could get to the leopard it had become hot, scent had lifted, and there was not enough vegetation to hold the scent for long. Each day was a repeat of the day before, it was beginning to wear me down, and I developed a pissy attitude, between NO LEOPARD and the whole crowd acting like a bunch of bickering old hens! 16 days come to an end just like that. It was a miserable trip to say the least, and some my fault for being so hung up on leopard.

After this, I decided I must do other hunts, and would NEVER again, hunt strictly for leopard only. I figured I would return many times, and at some point in life would get lucky. So left it at that.

Over the next 8 years everyone I hunted with would at some point start hunting leopards. OK, fine we can do that. But I refuse to sit in a blind past 9 pm--end of story, I don't do that, not going to do that. Some point in Zimbabwe it became illegal to sit either 30 minutes or an hour after sunset. I forget which, don't really care, but was DELIGHTED to be told of that change. Now I did not even have to tell the guys anything, and was happy to leave the blind early. I hate blinds! We had leopards walk around us, sniff at us in the blinds, and I even hammered a leopard in Mozambique once, and lost him!

We were hunting lion in Mozambique back in the day, sorted the lion out on the third night. Lot's of time left for leopard. Had big tracks and a great tree, dry river bottom, perfect place. Small problem, it was only 40 yards from the border with South Africa, and the border was the Kruger! PH set up anyway. Another issue, it was 80 yards, best place and about the only spot for a blind. OK, no big deal, had a wonderfully accurate Win M70 358 STA. Shooting 250 Swifts at 2900 fps. Checked the scope on arrival, dead on the money. In the blind, around 4 pm. Here we go. Along about 8 pm we heard him in the tree. Rifle set up, as good as being on the bench. I am not rattled, everything 100% good to go--Until we hit the BIG LIGHT--one of those 2 Million candlepower things, hooked to a car battery! Light went on for 1 second, and blinked out permanently! Fiddle farted with it, it would not come on. All we had was a sure fire. Handed it to him, I settled in on the rifle. Hit the sure fire, I could see or thought I could, squeezed trigger, bullet hits spots, we both see spots slammed out of the tree literally to the dirt below. Grass 6 feet tall, so we could not see spots, but was 100% sure he was dead at the base of the tree. High Five! Shouts of joy! Job completed! A few minutes we strolled over to the tree---No Spots? Blood, but not bright blood. Looked around, but the grass was so tall we could not see 5 yards in front of us! No Kitty! Both completely sure he was dead, we decided to sit there all night to keep the hyenas from getting the carcass. It was a very long night. Next morning, our other PH and trackers showed up to assist our followup. Daylight we could see the tracks, he had made a trail straight to the big fence at the Kruger. Half way to the fence I found where he had laid up for a bit, big splotch of blood the size of a football. Blood trail leading from there straight to under the fence, and into the Kruger National Park. This was very bad. No one was crossing that fence, not even one foot. Called the Kruger, the fellow that had the concession at the time was in a pissing match with them, we did not get permission to follow up. It was over, nothing to do accept lick our wounds on this. Checked the rifle, it should have been nearly dead on the money at 80 yds, but somehow during the few days riding it was now a full 2 inches high at 80. Now not blaming that, I think it was probably a lot of factors. Maybe the light, maybe I was not seeing what I thought I saw? Any number of things, but the end result was my first lost animal ever, and nothing I could do about it.

The story goes on, sitting in blinds, putting out baits, chasing my tail for several more years. Always close, but never close enough. Then we found ourselves in Tanzania. Same story, busting buffalo, hippo, and chasing leopards. Never getting too caught up in spots. Just doing the thing. One night big cat wants to eat a rotten baboon. Soon as we hit the light, I see him going down the tree, a fleeting glance only. He walks around the tree and blind. Another evening one makes camp outside the blind, could not be further than 20 yds, never goes up the tree. Then one evening, before dark, laying there getting ready to nap, as I know there is no chance of a leopard coming, and even if it does so what, I wont' get a shot anyway. So we hear this one coming up the river bed. Grunting and carrying on as they do. Well instead of him going to the bait, he comes around behind the blind. Just as I thought, this is over already. Busted again. I never even gave it more thought. Figured he was a ghost and was long gone. 10 minutes later, he was in the tree broadside at 60 yards, it was still daylight---But just barely. I eased into position, Winchester M70 416 Remington, 360 gr Woodleigh soft at 2560 fps! At 60 yds it would have been a tad over an inch high, I held an inch lower! Slammed him out of the tree, he disappears in the tall grass! JHC--Not another repeat? This was heavy on my mind of course, on the short and careful walk over to the tree. But to my relief there he was, stone cold, big nice hole right where it was supposed to be! I was elated to say the least, my long journey had come to an end! I swore I would never sit in a blind again!

That was until the next evening that is! Momma decided we must hunt lion! She had never seen a lion from a blind or hunted. Not very happy about this, but I agreed! We had found some fresh, big male lion tracks 3 days before. Checked the same area, nothing. Both Andrew and I decided go ahead, put up some bait, build a blind, keep Momma happy right? There is ZERO chance of seeing these lions. Not going to happen. Finished the blind 30 minutes before Zero dark thirty. Get in the blind, send trackers and truck off in the distance, to somewhere. Andrew and I settle in, go ahead and lay down getting ready to catch a couple of hours nap. Remember, no chance at all of seeing a lion. Momma sitting up, looking out of her spot in the wall of the blind. Excited. Me, in the middle, already down for a nap. Andrew next to me, the same, down for a nap. It was no more than 5 minutes, she shakes me a bit, "there is a lion outside". WHAT? No Way. She is kidding! I ask, are you kidding? No, right outside there is a lion, it is looking at us! I look at Andrew, he looks at me, both confused, She has to be joking! We sit up easy, fully expecting--Nothing! I will be damned, there is a BIG female, looking at the blind, no more than 7-8 yards in front!!!!! HOLY CRAP! We start to get very excited at this point, the thought runs through my mind, "We are going to shoot a lion for real". HEH HEH........ Well, the story is, these lions had feed, there was 3 females in this group, no male at all. They circled the blind, went on up to the boys in the truck, and terrorized them for about an hour, then came back down to the bait and all three laid down, took a nice nap right under the bait tree! OK, it was fun playing with the lions, Momma got to see lions close up from the blind and so all was good.

End Of Leopard Story!

Sorry for the long post, but thought I would tell you why I hate leopards so bad. This of course is the short version, just to get the jest of the matter across! I did misspeak somewhere, yesterday, I stated 70 nights in the blind hunting leopard. That is not the case, it should have said 70 days total hunting leopard over an 8 year period, off and on. The first 30 of those days were two full trips for nothing but leopard. Many of those 70 days included many full all nighters, half nights, and some only a few hours. More than I want I can tell you. I am no leopard hunter, I hate blinds! I Hate Leopards--That is my story, and I am sticking to it.

Michael

OK, that Hi Jack of terminals is done, now to important matters, but, that 300 gr Barnes Blue tippy bullet at 2500 or so feet per second, that would get a leopards attention I reckon! Yeah!

Mike

quote:

Michael,

Remember this?

"Solid or Full-Patch bullets. This is a matter of the very utmost importance, yet it's a never-ending source of amazement to me how utterly indifferent the vast majority of men are about the design of the bullets they use. It does not appear to occur to them that they could do anything about it if the bullets didn't behave themselves too well. They appear to be quite satisfied with whatever the makers care to supply and never think that the makers are not themselves hunters and will rarely alter their bullet design unless they receive complaints from men who actually use them."

African Rifle and Cartridges
John Taylor
Page 262


I bet Taylor would be thrilled with the current Monolithic Flat nose solids.


Mike

Oh my God! It's been a long time since I read the book! I can't remember much, suppose it's time to open it up again! What a great writing--and absolutely as true right this very second, as it was when Taylor wrote it. Yes, I think Taylor would be all over the FN Solids we have today, and be thrilled to have them and put them to work for his own use! I doubt Taylor would wish to hold on to the past, if there was something there that would make his life easier, and more successful.

M

Jeffe

Thank you buddy! I think we have done some good work here as well! Lot's of BS taken out of the equation, and we don't "THINK IT" or "THEORIZE IT" we just simply do it! And yet, there are those who still do not wish to learn or believe in anything, even when it comes back from the field successful as well--as many of the bullets we have tested and worked with, have been just as successful in the field and for the very reason we test to begin with!

Thank you always for your support and advice and extensive knowledge in these areas! There is much that we can all learn from each other and the various areas in which we work. I know I am not as ignorant as I was 10 yrs ago, even 5 years ago, and even last week for that matter!

Doc, IBT, Phats,

Book? Ya'll just hacking on me! Me do a book? My grammar is not good enough for that! They would laugh me out of the publishing house! LOL........

Maybe one day when I get time, and someone will correct all my grammar mistakes, which would be a full time position for someone!

LOL

Tanz and Jeffe

I was amazed at the good performance way down low velocities with that little 300 barnes blue pill! I think I would put something like 1100 fps muzzle velocity as a low on it. And rock and roll. As good as the BC seems to be it should open at 100 yds or so easy. It's beginning to open at 800 fps. So that is not so bad at all. Man, it was fun to shoot too.

When I get back, yous guys remind me to do some more low velocity work with those remington 300s! I think they look like they are going to perform just as good. Not sure if I have time to work that in, I might do so in the next day or two. Yes, I think I must try that. Fun! Big Fun you might say. In the meantime, look around in other calibers as well that might have some lighter bullets we can run low velocity and see how they work.

I have for years threatened to do some low velocity work, but I just never seem to get around to it, always a "Buffalo" bullet that has to be worked out! Of course, there is always a Buffalo Bullet to check out, just like now!!!!!!!!

HEH........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Doc, IBT, Phats,

Book? Ya'll just hacking on me! Me do a book? My grammar is not good enough for that! They would laugh me out of the publishing house! LOL........

Maybe one day when I get time, and someone will correct all my grammar mistakes, which would be a full time position for someone!

LOL

Michael

Nope, not kidding at all, not a bit.

Someone here might know someone who would know what is involved in compiling all of this into a book form.

IBT is 100% on about the 3-ring binder style for the inevitable updates cause we all know you ain't gonna stop doing the testin'. Shiny heavy stock for the photos.

I'd pay for both the hard copy and electronic versions, The DVD would have to be G-rated - my daughter helps me reload so just stick to guns and targets with voice-overs.

I'd buy it!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
It was my first leopard and we had to sit in a blind for over 2 1/2 hours in the daylight before shooting one. It seemed like forever.

Phatman,
In the IronWaterBoardBuffalo, the best penetration ever, was with a little over 2800 fps
using the S&H Brass FN solid .395/330-grainer.

At 2800 fps that "best of" brass nose was just starting to deform, stayed flat but the nose bulged slightly.
That only made it better for penetration, by slightly shortening and shifting CG forward by a hair.
I got over 80 inches in my medium.

It would have to be a good brass FN solid to go 3000 fps and not deform much.
The copper ones bulge a lot more at lesser velocities than the brass.

I soon stopped RN solid testing altogether.
It got too expensive replacing the stainless steel, pre-drilled, square tube members,
destroyed when the RN solids tumbled out of the sides of the IWBB.

Why is the frontal brain shot so tricky on elephant?
Because of RN solids that do not stay on track, even when placed perfectly by the rifleman.



Doc M or MM,
(not Marilyn Monroe but adored nearly as much),

Sign me on for the book too, any way, any how, if it ever goes to production.
Yes, a three-ring binder bigger than the Sierra manual would be good.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Doc, IBT, Phats,
Book? Ya'll just hacking on me! Me do a book? My grammar is not good enough for that! They would laugh me out of the publishing house! LOL........
Maybe one day when I get time, and someone will correct all my grammar mistakes, which would be a full time position for someone!
LOL
Michael

The book starts with the incident that started the quest, the charge of a BIG beast which MM had to stop before being flatened. Then there's a flash back section which fills in some of MM's hunting adventures. (got to make it G rated, so hunting only!)

The next section is titled, How We Got Here. It is woven into four inter related topics; the rifles, the cartridges, the bullets and the hunts (including field reports from others)Includes separate section on range, lab and instrumentation.

The next section is titled, Where We Are Now. Same four topics.

The last section is titled, What's Next?
Same four topics.

Heavy on graphics, tables and pics. Interlace with humor. Don't leave out blind alleys followed, mistakes made etc; more of a real history than an organized lab report. Sprinkle with the cast of supporting characters. Use fold out sheets for time lines and tables as needed.

As for publishing, you're thinking of old technology. What you need is an editor/coauthor to help with the work. Do it all electronically at first, put it on a server and charge for downloading the finished product. Lots of examples on the web now. When the demand builds, print fancy autographed run (with free DVD), then regular hard back, then trade hard back.

See, I knew someon would know what to do.

IBT - Excellent!!!

Of course Michael458 is in his PJs, Teddy in hand, dreaming of 1-band CEB Non-con, play-dough-tipped, Sterling silver .458 bullets but you are right on target with that book description.

Michael,
You have been living the Hunters dream for how many years? 25, 30 does anybody know how old this Geezer is? Kidding...lol
You tell the book by telling stories, it would be a great read.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Why is the frontal brain shot so tricky on elephant?
Because of RN solids that do not stay on track, even when placed perfectly by the rifleman.

That's my suspicion, too, even though I'm only a bovine hunter. I've often wondered how Karamojo Bell did it with his little 7x57 and roundnose solids (ah, right, 275 Rigby, he was British). If he were using later spitzer point solids, would he have survived?

RIP

quote:

I soon stopped RN solid testing altogether.
It got too expensive replacing the stainless steel, pre-drilled, square tube members,
destroyed when the RN solids tumbled out of the sides of the IWBB.

Why is the frontal brain shot so tricky on elephant?
Because of RN solids that do not stay on track, even when placed perfectly by the rifleman.

Me as well. RN solids exit sides, bottoms, and top of the impact boxes, going up shattering lights and fixtures, going to the sides tearing acoustic foam and bouncing off the walls, just too much damage as they cannot track straight. Had a fellow, one of our lurkers, very nice guy, some few days ago ask about testing the A-Square RN solids. I rarely refuse a test, but I did this one, as I know what is going to happen, and they just cause too many issues and damage to the range. Sorry, but true.


Tanz and RIP--remember those old 1950 issue 6.5 round nose 155 gr bullets Corbin had, running them I think 2000-2200 fps or so, deep and straight. Funny looking little bullet. Actually on impact the nose flattened just ever so much, penetrated nearly straight as can be. I figure old bell must have had something along those lines. No spitzers would ever do that for sure. No, I would not consider that the old traditional RN bullet either, as it did flatten some. And I figure that is what helped it penetrate. And no 465HH, the Woodleigh 320 penetrates for magic reasons! But it's smaller cousin the 280 does not.

Yeah, well maybe one day I look at doing us a book of sorts. Don't have time right now.

But it sure is flattering all the great things you guys have to say, so thank you for the encouragement.

M

My No Shooting Hunting buddy has been after me for a couple of years now for a book. A combined effort, hunting stories, tech data on rifles, bullets and such as that. We have been putting together an outline of sorts. But I keep putting him off some. Seems a book or similar, folks get the impression of some self proclaimed expert, and I don't like coming off like that. I can see it now "Who in the hell does he think he is--Or Who Is he to Say", you know, that sorta thing. I'm no expert, I am just curious about things is all. At the very beginning, I am a "Student Of", not an expert. There are many of you guys that would be doing exactly the same thing if you could, had time, or facility to do so. I am just lucky, I can manage to work it in, and have the facility on hand, and willing to put enough time into it to learn about it. That's all! Of course you have to like bullets too! Piece of metal going down a steel tube--I don't know what it is about a bullet, but I do love a fine bullet! A little strange if you really think about it! But I suppose no more strange than many human endeavors I can think of, so be it. I would think many other things that are strange, golf hits me as being rather strange come to think of it, and I am sure many of you play golf. Seems a bit strange to me, but.............

LOL

Kids! I tell you....... At 2 am my oldest came driving in! WHAT THE HELL? OK, had been out with his little crowd. Leaving where ever they were, about 1-1;30 am I suppose. Got his little race car sideways, over the curb, hit a small tree, tore up the plastic front end and down the side of the car, curb completely ruined the back wheel! Came in, parked his car and crying the blues about tearing it up! Oh well, to begin with what were you doing, and why? Car got away from him of course! No business out in the world at 1 am to begin with, eh? Nothing out there you need to do at 1 am! Had only had a beer, so that was not the issue, just being stupid, car got away from him. Of course, he had only had this one a couple of months, because he got into an accident and totaled the other one! Kids! No ears! I keep threatening cutting all their ears off, they don't need them? They don't Listen? What do they need ears for? The other two are no different either! I can't imagine why they even have ears! Oh well, whatta ya gonna do? Try and get by, until they grow some brains, to figure out what their ears are really for I suppose!

Later Guys, have a piano recital to attend this morning, then off for a hair cut! Gonna be a long day today!

Michael

Michael,

Glad your son is OK and didn't get hurt. I'm sure you never ever did anything like that growing up!

Go ahead and write the book but remember I want the first copy.

Sam

Thank God your son is OK.

My advice - get him into a car club with a "driving school" - there are a ton of marque-specific and general. These aren't driving schools for the passing the road test, these are "learn to drive a race course on a real race track". I was an instructor but the very first time I tried it as a student, I never again considered driving too fast on the street. Felt no need - got to do the real thing at Watkins Glen, NHIS, LRP, VIR, etc.

Like comparing hunting Africa to a video game of hunting.

Have him give it a try - it will keep him safe AND teach him how to get out of bad situations he might find himself in while driving.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Thank God your son is OK.

My advice - get him into a car club with a "driving school" - there are a ton of marque-specific and general. These aren't driving schools for the passing the road test, these are "learn to drive a race course on a real race track". I was an instructor but the very first time I tried it as a student, I never again considered driving too fast on the street. Felt no need - got to do the real thing at Watkins Glen, NHIS, LRP, VIR, etc.

Like comparing hunting Africa to a video game of hunting.

Have him give it a try - it will keep him safe AND teach him how to get out of bad situations he might find himself in while driving.

THAT is an excellent idea.
I too am very pleased to hear that your son is all right Michael...
Its every parents worst nightmare that anything serious should ever happen to ones kids..

10 years ago, I was nursing my eldest son back to good health after a very bad wreck. My heart goes out for you

Doc

Yes that is an excellent idea! Gets that out of their system, under a controlled situation I believe.

Nahhh, he did not get hurt, good thing, hurt his feelings a right good bit tearing up his little plastic car! HEH HEH.... Now he has to drive the farm truck! LOL,,,,, beat up old crew truck!

Thanks guys, yes it's hard out there these days it seems! So much for the kids to get into, far more I think than when we were kids. Fortunately other than having some bad genetics from their mothers side (Wife #2) my boys do rather well for the most part. Never too much issues with them. Mercedes having superior genetic material (Both Sides) HEH HEH HEH...... Other than not needing her ears either, she will be fine as well. That middle son, not so sure about him right now, but hopefully in the long run that will sort out as well! Just have to keep him focused!

I could have it much worse that is no doubt! So I am a blessed individual in many areas!

Now, I think I will take a break for a bit, and catch up later.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
...Fortunately other than having some bad genetics from their mothers side (Wife #2) my boys do rather well for the most part. Never too much issues with them. Mercedes having superior genetic material (Both Sides) HEH HEH HEH...... Other than not needing her ears either, she will be fine as well. That middle son, not so sure about him right now, but hopefully in the long run that will sort out as well! Just have to keep him focused!

Michael

Michael,

Don’t you remember what ears are for? I certainly do! They’re for parents to grab hold of to get your undivided attention or to drag you someplace you’d rather not go to!!! Then someday they miraculously begin working and the child can actually hear from them (Hear as in pay attention to what is being said!). Grab um both and you can definitely get their attention.

LOL... Glad you son is uninjured...except for his pride.

P.S. Hope you enjoyed Mercedes' piano recital.