Same story, dropped the charge to 20 grs of 2400 and velocity again about equal to the 300 Barnes test with the same charge. Note, I tested only 2 rds each, but actually fired 3 rounds. With both 25 and 20 grs of 2400 and a Fed 210 these loads were very close in extreme spread, which I was surprised about, I took no special care, no fillers, no nothing, throw in the powder and top the bullet. And, all these shot very well at 25 yds. When I get back I think I will try some of these at 50 yds just to check accuracy a bit.

And last 15 grs of 2400 and this is where I started getting some inconsistency in extreme spread of velocity. One bullet tested was 822 fps, the other 896 fps. So I made sure to keep those separate as impact velocity was just as different, therefore a different level of performance, as you can see plainly. The bullet that did not open much being the 822 fps bullet.

quote:

Girls did pretty good, except for the damned shampoo! JHC! Shampoo-5 damned lbs of shampoo! You believe that? 5 lbs of shampoo! I told Momma get the shampoo when we hit the ground, South Africa has shampoo! Hell, she's South African, she knows this! Every time I weighed a bag, 5 lbs over, and she had put that damned shampoo in another bag! My God! But it will be expensive in RSA! Honey, they charge $150 for overweight bags 51-70 lbs, we can buy a lot of shampoo for a $150.00! I swear! Finally got the shampoo out of the bags!

Let me explain something to one and all. The only thing that saved Michael from a fate worse than death was the offer to buy $150.00 worth of shampoo. Regardless of what Michael said, that's what the females heard, and that's what they will do.

There is no way a man can understand the relationship between a woman and her hair. When a woman checks out another woman she checks the butt size (bigger or smaller than hers) and the hair. Women refer to "having a bad hair day". Women will protect their hair condition against one and ALL. I don't want to begin to state the number of times I've seen a woman risk life and limb to insure her hair didn't get messed up.

So Michael, smile at buying $150.00 worth of shampoo, is worth the pain and anguish you will be spared.

IBT

Words of great wisdom my friend, I think you may very well have this analyzed 100% spot on! Very possible I was spared only by the thought or statement of $150 of shampoo! I figured just to wash what little hair I have with bar soap that might be available! But, I think I did not take all things into account in a proper manner!

However, I understand at this moment my PH has already come to the rescue! It has never ever once been required that the PH save my Life, until today! And he has done so and I am in his debt! Seems he received a call from my lovely wife, and was told that he BETTER have some shampoo for her the minute she steps off the airplane! To which he replied not to worry, it would be there! So the Shampoo war has been settled, I have been saved from fate worse than death and burning in hell, by my PH! I say CHEERS and Raise a glass to the endless Life Saving Efforts of all our PH's out there everywhere!



Now if the fridge is not loaded with ICE COLD CASTLES, then he has me to contend with!

Michael

The total irony of that is the fact (and women will admit this) that Men have better hair then Women.
Women dont seem to mind this since by the time we are 40 its all fallen out anyway...LOL

Cheers, John

Michael,
Consider yourself lucky - it could have been ugly. 25 years of marriage and 30 of "togetherness" has taught me the true meaning of "dangerous game".

Hey Doc

Well, Yes, I think lucky is the correct term for my stupidity of course. You would think I would have learned by now, as I have been married 28 years myself, but just to 3 different ones is the only difference!

That thought in mind, I really should know better!

A "Dangerous Game" it is, and expensive as well! LOL....... But, I just got through paying for the second one, so I have more shooting dollars available! HEH HEH HEH..... Yippie! Oh, right, almost forgot, still making installments on #3, and this one I will be for the rest of my days!

M

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
The total irony of that is the fact (and women will admit this) that Men have better hair then Women.
Women dont seem to mind this since by the time we are 40 its all fallen out anyway...LOL

Cheers, John

HEY-- I still have hair Phats! Just a lighter shade of black now, kinda more like gray, white sorta! But I still have plenty of it!

LOL
M

I think a discussion of proper Beer etiquette while on "Safari" is in order here also, in particular since I am getting ready to practice this next week. You tell me yours, I will tell you mine?



Then Maybe I will show some more terminals tomorrow as well?

M

OH and one more very important item that I keep forgetting, even when I spoke with him this afternoon. My buddy and pal, 450NE, he left a couple of WONDERFUL DVDs here of his elephant hunt, and I have been meaning to tell him via email or via phone about how good they were, absolutely PROFESSIONAL quality, better than any Tracks Across Africa I have ever bothered to look at, and nearly had tears in my eyes watching! OK, tears are a bit overboard, but just saying............

They were extreme! Job well done 450NE and very well deserved. Could not help but notice the very heavy nostalgia to "Double Rifles"--Yes, you guys know those things with two rifles glued together to make one rifle, I normally just duct tape mine, but maybe in the future there will be a 450NE B&M DVD? I can bet there might be!

LOL

450NE, just keep forgetting to tell you how wonderful that DVD is, so here it is in public for all to see! You are famous now you know?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I think a discussion of proper Beer etiquette while on "Safari" is in order here also, in particular since I am getting ready to practice this next week. You tell me yours, I will tell you mine?



Then Maybe I will show some more terminals tomorrow as well?

M

Well, my son likes Castle, but I prefer Tusker kubwa, baridi sana. And when in Kenya I'll sometimes say "bia yangu nchi yangu' which sometimes confuses the waiter when s/he sees my pale face, usually gets smiles because of its patriotic support-- "my beer, my country"--an ad campaign by Tusker.

Michael,

I've seen 450NE's video also and I love that follow up side brain on his elephant. When his first frontal brain didn't faze the brute and as it spun 450NE smacked he with a 450NE double. You know he was using those RN things and I hope he will tell everyone about how they worked.
Hey there is nothing wrong with tears on an elephant hunt or any African hunt. I get choked up often because I think of how blessed I am to be able to hunt Africa!

Sam

Another frontal brain shot on elephant foiled by the Round Nose Solid going squirrelly before it got to the brain.
Less straight line penetration required on the side brain shot, just sayin', from my armchair ...

36 years married to my high school sweetheart here.
I spend about 5 cents to every 150 bucks she spends on dye jobs and cuts from a gay hairdresser named "Jonathan," and special shampoos and conditioners.
A bar of soap will do for my snowy top too.


PS: 2RECON,
Will be fireforming 49-10 (.500 Tornado) and .395 H&H in tandem soon.


PSS: Doc M,
Yes, definitely some terminal ballistic testing will be in order for the CEB FBH .395 Lite Bullet.
I ought to pack the IWBB with wet news print and magazines and witness cards, instead of plywood and water buckets,
or bring it by MIB one day when you are in full swing.
And my 1:10" twist .458 B&M to compare a slow load to that 1:20" twist 45/70 hot load.
Bon voyage ( a little Jonathan lingo),
and break a leg.
Budweiser "Heavy."

Michael: "Bullets better than money." I think that is why we got divorced in the first place. She hated the money I spent on bullets and hunting...which was lower than what she spent (by far) on clothes. Of course, I could have wasted money on investments, insurance, and other idiocies.
Max

quote:

I've seen 450NE's video also and I love that follow up side brain on his elephant. When his first frontal brain didn't faze the brute and as it spun 450NE smacked he with a 450NE double. You know he was using those RN things and I hope he will tell everyone about how they worked.

quote:

Another frontal brain shot on elephant foiled by the Round Nose Solid going squirrelly before it got to the brain.
Less straight line penetration required on the side brain shot, just sayin', from my armchair ...

Sam and RIP

Well I don't know for sure, could be, maybe, But I can attest to one thing, I don't think it was accuracy being an issue as I have seen our boy 450NE shoot. Shooting is not an issue. I am going to show you a target or two. 450NE and I were sighting in his 416 B&M with 325 BBW#13 HPs at a touch over 2500 fps. 450NE doing the shooting. The first target is the first three rounds he shot out of the rifle and the second target after I moved it to the right a few clicks. Second target is 2 rounds, and I stopped him, there was no need for more.






No, on that hunt I am quite sure that shooting was not the problem!

Michael

RIP

MIB door is always open for you, and always welcome to visit and do test work! We have many many exciting projects coming up after I return that I am already thinking of. So soon as we return, and get caught up on real work, we will be back in full swing.

Prof242

Look hear, a gal that can't understand the value of bullets means you are just better off without! Hate to say that, but the truth will be welcomed! That's of course just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it! LOL......

My Sweety understands completely the value of good bullets, rifles, and cartridges! I am a blessed man no doubt about it.

OK,what about the 325 Hornady Flex?

Michael

The low velocity loads we tested the last week or so has peaked my interest a bit. One thing, it's very easy to work with, and quite fun to play around with. To be honest, in all three bullets I was surprised at the performance, and especially the 300 Barnes blue tip bullet, whatever they call that thing.

Lets look at a short review with all three bullets together. Now many things come to mind when choosing a bullet of course the most important is the mission you ask of it. Will it perform that mission with success? Then of course cost is a factor, availability, and accuracy in your rifle?














I think pretty good info. When I return I plan on doing a low velocity tests with the 50 B&M Super Short as well with the various bullets available.

Michael

Michael

VAYA CON DIOS mi amigo

SSR

Hey Cross, I ain't gone yet! Still kicking around, even getting a bit of range time, in between other BS. How about that, never quit!

Well, here is something I had been interested in, but had not had time to do since getting them, so I quickly threw together these new .500 caliber BBW#13 NonCons. Both in the 50 B&M Super Short. I will need to do some proper load development when I get back along with Pressure Traces. But this worked pretty good.








Both bullets sheared proper, and blades going to 6-8 inches, normal, which remaining slugs continuing deep and well into "Buffalo Bullet Territory". As you recall, some of our very best common buffalo bullets we have all used in the past penetrate between 18-24 inches, both these meet that criteria, despite weight! Both also present a lot of trauma in the first 10-12 inches of penetration as well, with the first 6 inches being devastating!







With the increased penetration, failure is not possible. Failure is not an option.

Michael

I had to go all the way back to page 1 to find it. The 458 Lott with a 500 gr. Swift A-frame bullet did almost exactly the same as the 500 B&M SS with the Noncon open point bullet.
Now lets think about that a second. There is a huge difference in case capacity between these two. The K Energy is vastly different between the two.
It all came down to the bullet.

Amazing

Cheers, John

Phats

What you see is the difference between "Conventional Premiums" and "Non-Conventional" or NonCons. It is about the bullet, always has been.

We see the question all the time, typical--- "Whats the best Cartridge For BLANK?" A cartridge is the engine for the bullet, that's all it is, The case holds everything together, primer, powder, most important the bullet. The Cartridge does not penetrate an animal destroying tissue, nor does the powder or primer. The bullet does this work. Of course, a case must have enough capacity to get the bullet moving at a proper velocity in which it needs to do it's work, but one can enhance a cartridge that comes up short on capacity by having a proper bullet, for the job at hand.

Let's look at the 50 B&M Super Short for example; 1.65 inch case, 16 inch platform. 50-55 grs of powder capacity. Let's hunt buffalo. Now it can run a 300 Hornady Flex up to 2450 fps or better--Plenty of velocity, but short on bullet and penetration, at anything from 9-14 inches depending on velocity. Now we take that 345 NonCon, or 375 NonCon, and we start getting 25 inches plus in the test medium. As noted, 500 Swift A Frame at 2250 fps, 24 inches. Now our 345 and 375 .500 caliber bullet is penetrating into "buffalo Territory". We have enhanced our cartridge and platform, by choosing the right sort of bullet for that mission at hand.

Michael

Kudos, again to Doc M, MIB.
Beautiful work documenting some amazing performance from a stubby .500-caliber bullet and stubby cartridge case too!
Seems the proper CEB NonCon and solid will sort out anything in short order.
Very nice.
We can all sleep better now.

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
I had to go all the way back to page 1 to find it. The 458 Lott with a 500 gr. Swift A-frame bullet did almost exactly the same as the 500 B&M SS with the Noncon open point bullet.
Now lets think about that a second. There is a huge difference in case capacity between these two. The K Energy is vastly different between the two.
It all came down to the bullet.

Amazing

Cheers, John

Yes, amazing and promising.

I think that Michael has more than earned the right to do some testing with the little bullet.

It will penetrate adequately, broadside or frontal, so Michael should be around to report back.
And the initial expansion over the first 5-10 inches of animal tissue might have a crippling, staggering effect on an animal. Michael will have to let us know. Will he have a film person?

With a little more original diameter than the 458 Lott tossing 500grain A-Squares, the 500 BM will equally penetrate but perhaps with less violent tissue damage on the back 2/3s of the wound channel since it will have less operating diameter. Will the frontside umbrella of damage make up for this?
It will be good to hear Michael's opinion about different reactions.

Thanks RIP, lot's of hope riding on NonCons, I am heavy loaded to both CEB and North Fork NonCons on this trip. Have solids as well of course, but normally carry more or at least equal solids, this time heavy to NonCons and less solids.

Tanz, did not get proper POIs for the short lighter .500s in the 500 MDM. So I abandoned early on trying to get those to POI, just not enough time. I do however have that 425 deep cavity lion bullet that I was playing with, and intend to bust some thin skinned game with it in the 500 MDM.

Now in the 458 B&M I do have a lighter NonCon, that is on POI, that 370 BBW#13 NonCon. Intend to try it out on some critters, as well as a North Fork 400 Premium, plus the 400 BBW#13 Solids. So we will be looking at those 3 bullets in addition to the 420 #13 NonCon and 450 Solid, and even a few 480 gr BBW#13 Solids.

But there are some that will have to wait until next time.

I have 99% confidence I know what and how the bullets will work, it is difficult to fail when you have penetration backing you up. What I don't know and really can't even study completely doing wound cavity research, is the amount of shock or trauma inflicted when the animal takes that bullet. I have seen many bullets hit buffalo and other critters, and even some Premium Conventionals hit like lightening, repeatedly on some species. One animal does not make it so, either way, as each is an individual entity and subject to different reactions. One can really only start to get a good idea after observation of several impacts. All I can do is report what I see on any given shot or impact. We see what we see I suppose.

Michael

I have been saving this since yesterday, so this is the last report from MIB until I get to a spot I can report on some of our field operations. But, this one is particular important to me, and a long time coming, since 2006. Back in the day, early history, not so long ago, with the 50 B&M I knew then I needed a real stand up buffalo bullet. At that time there was nothing in .500 caliber that would accomplish this job. I was still thinking conventional at that time as well, and long before NonCons, for me anyway.

So, I had conversations with Bill Hober at Swift to begin with. Bill did not know what their .500 was going to be at the time, I did my best to talk him into a 450 gr bullet--Of course, which would have fit the bill for the 50 B&M and it's capacity perfectly. And, 300-400 gr .500s were common, I told Bill that Swift was not common, and even Hornady had a 500 gr bullet, a Swift 450 would be a great fit! It took Swift forever to put a .500 on the market, and of course when they did it ended up being a 325 gr bullet. So much for my plea! I did not expect them to do a proper bullet for me anyway.

I hedged my bets, and thank god I did not wait on Swift to do anything as it took years for them to get a .500. I talked to Woodleigh as well at the same time. Very agreeable to the notion, and I explained velocity and needs. Really didn't get a yes or no, still just talk. Then one day Geoff sends a note that the .510 450s were ready???? .510? I told him that would not work, he did not understand, even though I tried to make it clear--.500 not .510, but something got lost somewhere????

During this time I worked very close with two small bullet makers trying to get a 450 conventional bullet. Success was very poor, and hundreds of tests downrange just would not get them there. We tried everything they could do, and success was very low, and very limited. One of those guys really got upset with me when I did not use his bullet on a hunt. In fact, he told me not to bother with him anymore! I was sorry, but I showed him that we only had a 20% success rate with his bullets, and even that 20% was not with the same recipe. So there was no way I was going to the field with a bullet that could only give me a 20% success rate in the test work, not going to happen. We parted ways, I suppose he is still pissed, but it was a paying job, he was paid for every single sample, and it was always 50-100 bullets, not samples of 5 or 10. So........ Anyway, next!

Then we started discovering the HP NonCons and copper bullets from Lehigh. This put the .500s where they needed to be. With these bullets I could finally get the .500s where I wanted them. Great results with all these, and great success. But, to be honest with you, communications was so poor, it was impossible to do anymore tweaking of the bullets to get what you needed. Communications just did not exist to do this.

Then we started posting here, doing test work, lot's of great ideas from all you guys, and Sam started hanging around, and we went to work on the BBW#13s. Then we got really lucky and discovered CEB and Dan, very willing to work with us, and communications great. You know the rest of this story, so no need to repeat.

But, at nearly the same time frame we got to know our Friends at North Fork! North Fork is a great supporter of our Big Bore agendas, all of us, giving us extreme bullets that enhance all our various big bore cartridges, and they were very willing to work with me to give us an entire line of real .500 caliber Dangerous Game Bullets. Man, I have 5 different .500 caliber cartridges, so an entire line of bullets were needed to put these cartridges where they needed to be. And I still wanted that 450 gr Premium Conventional bonded bullet! So North Fork and I went to work on this and with North Fork we came up with North Fork FPS and CPS (Expanding CPS) for both the Super SHort, right on up to the 500 MDM and 50 B&M. I wanted that 450 NOrth Fork Premium Conventional--So we designed the Nose so that it would work perfect in the 50 B&M Alaskan, and the lever guns. At the same time it would also work dandy in all the bolt rifles by just varying the seating depth. So it was a Premium Conventional that would work in all the .500s if needed, and in particular the 50 B&M Alaskan and 50 B&M. North Fork had some issues with the die maker on this one, and this bullet was not cheap to do either. Another die maker was contracted with, and a good thing it seems as North Fork is extremely happy with his work, as am I.

North Fork worked very hard to get some of these to me before leaving on the trip, and they did accomplish this, day before yesterday I received 10 of them! I had to test, regardless of time left to do so. The 500 MDM was packed and was no way I could drag it out and start with it, so I quickly loaded 1 round for the 50 B&M ALaskan, and one round for the 50 B&M. No data, no pressures and no POIs, just load one and go test quickly. No time for anything else.

I am so proud of this bullet, it was a long time coming, and I could not ask for a better premium bullet than what I got. I am very pleased that Swift and Woodleigh failed me on this, as I know that I have exactly what I wanted to begin with, and believe this a far better option.

I can't thank North Fork enough for all the effort they have put into the B&M cartridges. And I cannot leave out CEB and Dan, and between the two of them we as big bore shooters need not look further in most all cases. My loyalty to both North Fork and CEB cannot be questioned, I will continue to do my best to not allow these prejudices to interfere, but to allow anything else would not be truthful, and I can't think of an occasion that I will be needing another bullet to accomplish any mission I might embark upon.

While my prejudices run deep, it is not only because of my fondness of North Fork and CEB, or the fact that they do support Big Bore of all sorts, or the fact that both are great to work with, and both are truly concerned about the bullets performance--the main reason is that these are the finest bullets out there, that are easy available to all of us. There are other good bullets of course we know that, some of these bullet makers really don't care about performance, nor our real needs for performance, and there are some superb bullets that are just not easy to come by as well. I know how North Fork and CEBs perform, great guys to work with, and interested in quality and performance, and our needs in the field. Believe me, if the bullets did not perform, I would not be working with them.

Enough, take a look at our new .500 caliber, North Fork Premium Bonded 450 gr Bullet!












Thank You North Fork!

It is 100% Excellent in every way!

Michael

These premium softs are great!
Question is when shooting an angry buff what bullet order would you use?
NF then NonCon then solid?

My biggest worry with the Open Point NonCons is at what point "in game" do they fragment.
On a thick, heavy skinned Buff, for instance, did you loose the power of the fragments before the vitals are reached.
This is were (in my opinion) the hunter needs to be aware of his ammos benifits and short commings.
I think the proof is in the hunting. We will all learn a great deal by Micheal having fun.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
These premium softs are great!
Question is when shooting an angry buff what bullet order would you use?
NF then NonCon then solid?

IMHO thats what field trials are for--so the correct answer is-yet to be determined.

SSR

If it was me, that first critter would be SOOOOO shot full of holes before we skinned him out.
Hey, no one ever said it had to still be alive to be good data...LOL

Cheers, John

More great stuff from Doc M, MIB:

So what would the new .500/450gr North Fork Soft Point do if driven to speeds the 500 MDM is capable of?
Ditto the .500/.338 Lapua Magnum:

The NF SP will deliver initial wickedly huge wound/trauma, the mushroom will fold back to smaller diameter after the higher impact speed,
and the bullet will penetrate deeper.

It might come close to the lethality of the CEB Brass NonCon.
The .395 H&H and 49/338LM(.500) will be fed a steady diet of CEB and NF bullets, as available.

From page 107 of this thread, where is that index when you need one:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
And last but not least, the 460 CEB BBW #13 Hollow Point, 500 MDM at 2670 fps!

This is the 4 Inch Witness Card.







Wicked, just absolutely wicked! These are the most wicked bullets I have ever worked with, and they do love velocity, but they do very well at lower velocity as well. I cannot wait to put these in buffalo! I want to see the reaction as they take the bullet--that's as important as bullet digging--I pretty well know what the bullet digging is going to look like, but it's all important to watch the reactions of the beast when taking it!

That's it for me guys!

Later
M

Until later,
Bonn-voy-ahgee

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
These premium softs are great!
Question is when shooting an angry buff what bullet order would you use?
NF then NonCon then solid?

Good/tough question between a CEB NonCon and the NF SP, as first shot.
Answer: Whichever your rifle shoots most accurately?
Or, just this: No worries, either one will do.

And the North Fork Cup Point is another "failsafe" for that first shot, see page 113:



Whenever I get bored, I just go "paging" through this thread looking for favorite bullet test results ...

Well if that doesn't do it then I hope the backup man has a 40mm grenade launcher...lol

May he have good luck and beers...

Cheers, John

I guess it's a matter of desired wound channel.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I guess it's a matter of desired wound channel.

It would be interesting to be able to compare wound channels. The noncom CEB appears to have jagged edges doing the work and the CPS NF appears to have smooth edges (rounded) doing the work. The CPS NF becomes larger in diameter while the CEB appears to penetrate slightly deeper?

Gotta keep this thread on the first page until Doc M gets back.
Some shameless filler:

Max,
This ought to kill elk well, even beyond 300 yards.
Dan The Man at CEB estimates it at 240 grains in copper:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Gotta keep this thread on the first page until Doc M gets back.
Some shameless filler:

Max,
This ought to kill elk well, even beyond 300 yards.
Dan The Man at CEB estimates it at 240 grains in copper:

Very nice! Did Dan give you the meplat diameter, and the HP diameter and depth per chance?

No, but if it is drawn to scale it can be estimated from the drawing and the dimensions shown.
Some dimensions are proprietary, Cosmic Squirrel Top Secret.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
No, but if it is drawn to scale it can be estimated from the drawing and the dimensions shown.
Some dimensions are proprietary, Cosmic Squirrel Top Secret.

Yep can do.

I have some info for my fellow Canadians that are following this thread.

Cutting Edge Bullets (CEB) are not presently available in Canada. I did have an E-Mail from them that indicated they were working on getting a Canadian distributor.

North Fork Bullets are available from Prophet River. Check their web site for contact info. There is no info on the bullets on the web site, but if you talk to Clay Smiley at Prophet River, I think you will find him most helpful.

Hugh

btt
CEB eye candy fix, while the cat is away, the mouse will play: