quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

One of my buddies dropped by, and I had been doing some "Limb" trimming, with a 12 ga Auto Shotgun, with slugs! Worked great, boom, boom boom, limb falls down, clear signal for the sat dish! Got the picture?

Well, my buddy had a big ford F350 Duel Wheel truck at that time. So he parked it close to the tree I was getting ready to "Trim". Michael

Pretty much had a good idea of what was to come based on that scenario ...

Ok, lets see. Stupid is as stupid does, ya I be stupid.
I was 13 years old with my 1851 colt (copy) revolver and was out at the dump shooting rats. Saw a nice one just under a large truck tire. I fired just a tad high. The damn bullet came straight back and hit my right knee cutting the ACL.
Not a good day. Played hell explaining it to the Cops.
Haven't liked Cops since.

Cheers, John

Those Crayola tip bullets at 2700 fps really are something else. Too bad you ended the test just where the Hammer gets going! I have a nice Heym you can use for the .600NE tests. Just kidding! I really should not ever let anyone else shoot that thing!a-Rob

Yup those are my cup point copper bore riders. I made one run for Safari kid and as I remember sent some to CCMDoc as a gift. Very complicated design and hard to make. The front half of the bullets ride on the lands with only the rear engaging the rifling. They also have a slight cup point. I have another version that has a tungsten core. They were very very accurate and penetrated my test medium well but did expand a bit. I still have the Program to make them but they were hideously expensive due to the cost of Copper alloy and machine time.-Rob

Rob

quote:

Those Crayola tip bullets at 2700 fps really are something else. Too bad you ended the test just where the Hammer gets going

Hey, those Crayola's did just dandy at 2100 fps! Yeah, too bad I had to end the tests before getting to 2700 with them! Damn! I really hate that too! Let's see, I had something to do to prevent me from getting to that point, soon as I think of it, I will let you know!

HEH HEH.......


Please, keep the Heym!

For sure, copper and most other materials are very expensive now, especially when talking 2 ounces at a whack!

Both of these bullets did rather well! Nothing to worry over for sure!

My hat is off to you, and all the other Ultra Bore shooters, it takes a good deal of dedication and commitment to learn to shoot these beasts well. While they are not as bad as they are sometimes made out to be, they are still a handful and take dedication to learn.

Michael

Michael458,

Back home and just about recovered from jet lag.

A quick note about 470 Nitro North Fork Cup Points. I shot a buffalo cow for bait at 21 yards with the above mentioned bullet. High shoulder, top of heart, she slung her head back and collapsed like a brain shot elephant. Never took a step and had one short death bellow on the way down. Bullet passed through and put a nice size hole on exit.

That was my 8th buffalo but the first to drop in its tracks.

Below I have included a summary of the total test work done in .620 caliber. Some of this was done in 2009 with another rifle as well. FYI.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Michael458,

Back home and just about recovered from jet lag.

A quick note about 470 Nitro North Fork Cup Points. I shot a buffalo cow for bait at 21 yards with the above mentioned bullet. High shoulder, top of heart, she slung her head back and collapsed like a brain shot elephant. Never took a step and had one short death bellow on the way down. Bullet passed through and put a nice size hole on exit.

That was my 8th buffalo but the first to drop in its tracks.

MIKE!!!!!!!!!!!

VERY VERY EXCELLENT! I thought it might be time for you to be getting back to us!! WELCOME HOME MY FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!

The North Fork CPS is yet another NonCon as I am concerned, and I think what you saw was an example of the extreme impact trauma these sort of bullets are able to create.

Of course we will give you some time to settle back in before wanting to hear more about your trip, adventure, and of course field terminal performance. But not much time I assure you! LOL......

Glad to have you back safe! And all of us are WAITING ON THE DAMNED BULLET REPORTS!!!!!!!!

Michael

Wait till you hear the leopard story, it could only be appreciated by someone who spent how many nights....50?? in a blind.

This was my wife's version:

We had a couple of leopards feeding and we built a blind in the morning. After a lunch and a nap we had to sit in the blind for over two hours before....

I HATE LEOPARDS!


I HATE LEOPARD HUNTING


But can't wait to hear about yours!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Michael458,

A quick note about 470 Nitro North Fork Cup Points. I shot a buffalo cow for bait at 21 yards with the above mentioned bullet. High shoulder, top of heart, she slung her head back and collapsed like a brain shot elephant. Never took a step and had one short death bellow on the way down. Bullet passed through and put a nice size hole on exit.

That was my 8th buffalo but the first to drop in its tracks.

Awesome, Mike!

Looking forward to hearing about the leopard.

Of course according to some folk on the African Hunting Forum, that must have been some piss-poor shooting on the first 7 Cape buffalo since, according to them, they should all drop to the shot regardless of caliber.

Great shooting, great hunting looking forward to hearing more.

Stay well

CCMDoc,

What was interesting about that buffalo thread, there was not one mention of bullets.

I shot a buffalo cow two years ago, same distance, seemed to be identical shot placement, but used a Woodleigh solid. It took four more to put her down.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
CCMDoc,

What was interesting about that buffalo thread, there was not one mention of bullets.

I shot a buffalo cow two years ago, same distance, seemed to be identical shot placement, but used a Woodleigh solid. It took four more to put her down.

From their authoritative and irrefutable posts, one can only conclude that neither caliber nor bullet construction/performance matters at all.

I'd say that if Michael458 had bothered to consult those folk, this whole useless thread with all of the testing and reporting could have been avoided. Michael458 probably made all of this stuff up anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I HATE LEOPARDS!


I HATE LEOPARD HUNTING

OK, then I won't tell you that pop and i will be heading to Namibia with Karl S. in November to get one.

In fact, I won't even tell you that I hope he will be up to using my Sabatti 450/400 (assuming I get it back soon and all is right with it) with CEB Non-cons.

quote:

What was interesting about that buffalo thread, there was not one mention of bullets.

quote:

From their authoritative and irrefutable posts, one can only conclude that neither caliber nor bullet construction/performance matters at all.
I'd say that if Michael458 had bothered to consult those folk, this whole useless thread with all of the testing and reporting could have been avoided. Michael458 probably made all of this stuff up anyway.

Doc, Mike, what you are witness to is the difference between "Professional" and "Amateur". The "Professional" will not only study the mission at hand, but everything that can make that mission successful. In our case, we study all aspects of rifle, caliber, velocity, twist rates, all aspects of bullet performance with both solids and expanding or trauma inflicting bullets, such as meplat size, nose profile, twist rates again, velocity, expansion, trauma inflicted, and above and beyond everything--penetration! We do everything possible to insure the mission in which we embark is successful, we take very few chances, and we don't gamble on anything.

The "Amateur" rarely loads his own, barely shoots a 100 rounds a year, can care less about the bullet performance, relies completely on what he is told by other "Amateurs" that have been there, not really interested that much in the rifles, bullets, ammo, very much more interested in only the hunting aspect of the mission. Very rarely does more than get the rifle sighted in and packed. Purchased the ammo based on what he read, or what he has been told, and in many cases just what he used on the last trip, which resulted from what he was told or read in a magazine. Sometimes bases everything on "Historical" readings, and I don't mean historical data, I mean writings from 50-100 years ago! Interested in the "Great Adventure" far more than the mechanics of what will make the mission successful.

Not particularly proud of this fact, but I am an SCI Life Member, and receive that magazine every publication. I rarely even take the wrapper off, just stack them in the corner, sometimes open them to look at the adverts. But, if you read that trash, it is upon rare occasion that the great white hunter mentions much about his rifle, bullet, load, or any other data resulting thereof. More like this "The Giant 50 inch buffalo charged out of no where, and I stood my ground and downed him at 6 feet" or some such garbage. More like, I saw this buffalo at 60 yards, turned around jumped 6 ft high and run like hell after I shot a full magazine at him and missed! But you know that would not look so good eh? Point is, don't see much in that rag about bullets, loads, info, rifles, tech stuff, nothing. Oh, unless of course it's an advert about the most deadly bullet ever devised by man, or rifle, or whatever piece of equipment! Nice photos!

Anyway........... That's the way I look at them! They can be rather comical sometimes, good entertainment!

I hate Leopards!

Why? I hate them! I don't like them. Nasty buggers, rather eat a week old stinking baboon than a nice fresh anything! Bastards they are! They made me spend many a MISERABLE day and NIGHT! I swear, a few years ago, I had spent something like 70 of the most miserable nights in my life hunting the bastards! It took me EIGHT years to finally put one in the dirt! And I still HATE them all!

I don't have the patience for leopard! Obviously!

Well, it appears I have completed my POI study for my two rifles this morning. I am very pleased with the performance of both the 500 MDM and the 458 B&M and all the bullets I am choosing to take along and field test! I am about sick of that crap as well! I don't know how many hundreds of rounds I have fired in the last 2-3 weeks getting to this point, but it has been a damned bunch! I dare say, more than some of those Amateurs I was just talking about would shoot in a Life Time! My .500 caliber 460 and 500 gr bullets are down to a bare minimum now. I have nothing to spare. Fortunately I had plenty of 458s so good to go there. So it's load up, and pack up time. Any other shooting will mostly be done with the other rifles.

Other News? Yes, our buddy 450NE will be down for a visit starting tomorrow! He is coming to work with both his 458 B&M and his 416 B&M! We plan on having some good fun the next couple of days, hoping Sam may be able to visit as well!

Michael

As a pleasant diversion, tell us
1)where you are going;
B)what rifles you are bringing
III)what you will be hunting
and
5) which caliber for which species ...

Michael,

I've got blueberries running out my ears so I don't think I'll make it on Saturday. I;ll let you know if things change.

Good report on the Northfork cup point verses buffalo. Sounds a lot like the buffalo I shot with my BBW cup point. With good bullets buffalo hunting might get boring.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
As a pleasant diversion, tell us
1)where you are going;
B)what rifles you are bringing
III)what you will be hunting
and
5) which caliber for which species ...

ME?
M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
As a pleasant diversion, tell us
1)where you are going;
B)what rifles you are bringing
III)what you will be hunting
and
5) which caliber for which species ...

ME?
M

Yeah, you ...

Yeah, OK, Me!

Well, not much of a big deal. Arriving in country RSA on the 4th. Taking a little ride, that evening up to Sun City--couple of days of party time! HEH HEH..... Then back to J'Burg and on the plane to Harare on the 7th I believe. Then 8 days up on the Lake. Currently I have a buffalo bull and cow on quota, and only 1 hippo. Now I have very high hopes that by the time I arrive that another bull and cow maybe, or more, will come available, and hoping for at least 1 extra hippo or more? But that is an unknown today. Because as I calculate I will have current quota sorted out in 2 days--If I can catch old hippo on the dirt--and then for 6 days drink beer I reckon? Or, possibly some other species might crop up unexpected? Of course I may bust some plains game there, or not? Really putting some hope into extra quota on buffalo and hippo!

Then after 8 days of that, return to RSA, and drive up to our normal shooting area west of Louis Trichard (I think that's how it's spelled) and I have 5 cow buffalo there to sort out, and then I will start shooting some wildebeast, zebra, and about most anything else that will stand still long enough for me to work with! HEH..... We will spend about 7 days there, drinking beer and shooting, my favorite things to do! Well, there are some more things I like to do, but this is sorta a "family" type thread, sometimes. HEH HEH..... Yippie!

So, 7 total buffalo and 1 hippo for the big stuff and hoping for more to come available. Then shoot some other things to test some bullets.

Now, I am very pleased with my choices in caliber, bullets, rifles at this point. First up is the 500 MDM. Taking the English stocked stainless gun, of course it's a Win M70. It's feeding, function is 100%. My #1 bullet is the 460 CEB BBW#13 NonCon. I have it 1.25 inches high at 50 yards, and it's the baseline bullet that everything else is coming off of. It's running at 2460 fps right now with this current keg of RL 10X. Pressures are low. So it's way below it's potential. It's matching solid is the 500 CEB BBW#13, running it slower at 2380 fps it prints 3/4 inch below the 460 #13 HP. Windage is 1/4 inch off with the solid being slightly right. I can't see or shoot a 1/4 inch at 50 yds, so they might as well be spot on for field operations!

Now in addition to these two I am taking that Deep Cavity 425 gr BBW#13 NonCon I had done. I have to see what this does to a wildebeast or zebra, being thin skinned and even heavier than lion! I have to know about this! It is a full 2 inches high at 50 yds, so I must be mindful of this when I use it. I also will be taking the 450 North Fork Expanding Cup Point, and will use it on one of the buffalo as first shot up. It's running just under 2500 fps, and only about 1/2 inch higher than the 460 BBW#13 NonCon. So they interchange easy.

So, for first shots on buffalo for testing, 460 BBW#13 NonCon at 2460 fps, and 450 North Fork CPS at 2490 fps. Should hammer down I would think. I have slowed these down some from last week, and I am getting things a little tighter on POI. I doubt the buffalo are going to be able to tell the difference in 50-75 fps less! If they do, I will report it.


When I get tired of toting around the Big 8.5 lb 500 MDM and it's overly long barrel of 21 inches, then I will be switching to my sweet little 18 inch 458 B&M. It really won't take long for me to grow weary of the big gun! I am a bit lazy at times! Talk about a Sweetheart, it is very quickly winning me over big time! It handles like a dream, it's solid, feed/function with anything 100%. Slick as can be. Looks good, feels good, has to be good! Shoots about everything you put in it! As the base line loads I choose the 420 BBW#13 HP Noncon--dead center, 1 inch high at 50 yards running 2250 fps. It's matching solid, 450 BBW#13 maybe about 1/4 inch lower running 2215 fps. I am also taking a few of the 480 BBW#13 Solids at 2160 fps, they hit about 1/2 inch lower than the 450s and 420s. Now for lighter things, the 400 BBW#13 Solid and it's matching 370 BBW#13 NonCon. The 370 NonCon is running 2387 fps and is 3/4 inch higher than the 420 and 450. Close enough! The 400 Solid right along with the 370. Also, 400 North Fork Bonded at 2360 fps same POI as the 400/370 #13s. I think I have time to slip the 350 North Fork Expanding CPS in as well, it's slightly higher running 2 inches high at 50 yds (which I will have to make sure I don't forget)and running a bit over 2400 fps. I will be able to mix and match these and get some tests in with all.

I will use the 420 BBW#13 HP NonCon on a buffalo or two. That is it's intended purpose. I really want to get at least one extra bull for the 458 B&M, that would be nice. But if not, cows are just as good!

After the shooting we are taking a big cross country drive over to the coast to visit with Mommas Dad! He is a wild rascal let me tell you! We will lounge around, eat his food, drink his beer, and let Momma and Mercedes do some fishing! This man can fish, and I am not a fish eater, but he can not only catch them, but cook hell out of them! Last time we visited he cooked the greatest fish dinner I had ever eaten in my life--Incredible! The next night he asked if I would like steak? Well, I told him, "look here, I can eat a cow almost anywhere, but I can't eat these fish anywhere but here, so if it's all the same, I would be very pleased with the same dinner we had last night?" And that's exactly what we did! So that is on the menu, so to speak as well! And I really don't care for fish! That's how good this is! Me, turning down a dead cow, that's really a pretty big deal!

Then we are in and out of Pretoria, home for Momma. She has much to attend to there, house, this, that the other. So I am just tagging along with that too!

That's about the jest of it I suppose!

OK, what do you think of the load outs??????????

Michael

Michael458,
I think that it sounds just about perfect. It would be "perfect" if I were coming along!

Safe trip and bring some devices to record your experiences and results.



Paul

Michael

Looks like you have a wonderful trip lined up.

I am not sure , maybe this should be in the rifle thread but I just ran into a glitch in my 416 B&m. It feeds great but when I reload the first round in the front of the follower hangs on the feed ramp. If i reload slow it is easy to push it back but a speed reload jams things. One hopes 4 rds 416 would sort things out but..... This is only an issue for the first round into an empty mag , not topping off but still an issue. My thought is to bevel the front bottom lip on the follower,

comments please

SSR

CrossL

Check and see if the spring has jumped up on top of the bottom metal, out of it's area. If so, take it out, bend the tip down, put it back in and that should place the follower in the right spot, if that is what has happened. I suspect that is it. If not, move the spring back anyway and see if that moves the follower into position.

I have a hell of a time with those Super Shorts--that spring likes to jump the spot in front, moving the follower forward. They won't feed anything then. Push the spring back, and it's good to go. I bend the crap out of the very end of the spring, very difficult to get back in the race way, but it is normally tight enough then that it does not move forward during recoil. I have one Super Short that I put the JB Weld to, that solved that! HEH HEH.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Michael458,
I think that it sounds just about perfect. It would be "perfect" if I were coming along!

Safe trip and bring some devices to record your experiences and results.



Paul

Yes, I plan on doing some very good documentation. There are lot's of things I want to look at closely. One of the big ones is penetration of those blades! I want to see what goes on with those blades as they shear off and how far. It's very difficult doing field studies, things are fluid and move about, but will try and get the jest of that. Another thing is just study animal reactions when hit. I have seen enough to be able to be a decent judge of trauma transfer at the shot. This is about as important as digging bullets, hell I know what the bullet is going to do, what I don't know is how these animals will react to taking these!

I will have a laptop with, but don't know when and where I will have service. I know at one point we are staying at a place afterwards that has wireless and we will be there several days, so I will report in as I can.


OK Mike--About time that you are rested up now????? REPORT IN!!!!!!

Michael

Michael

Thanks I hoped it was something like that, the prob showed up after i changed stocks so was wondering about that spring.

SSR

Wishing you an amazing trip with much luck!
Would be interesting if you loaded up the 458 B&M with the 295 at 2500 like the 458 SS load for some post mortem shots.

Michael,

We WANT the Fish Recipe!!!
That and any BBQ sauce recipe you run across over there.
Oh, and take some pics of the fish they catch. That is part of the adventure ya know.

Come back safe and sound, and dont over throw any governments when your there.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael

Thanks I hoped it was something like that, the prob showed up after i changed stocks so was wondering about that spring.

SSR

Yeah Cross, pretty sure that's all, just that spring moved in the floor plate is all. Mess with that, should sort it out.



Boomy

Yes, First time in a long time I am actually looking forward to going. At one point I had become stagnant about going to Africa. But having laid off for two years now, I am looking forward to it again.

Hey, not a bad idea about the 295 BBW#13. I might just do that. Another thing, with the super shorts as well, that 325 North Fork Expanding CPS? Might take that too. I am looking at taking Super Shorts to Australia next year! All three of them!

Something else, I am beginning to get a bit excited about the new 475s. With the CEB's already in hand, and they look GREAT for both the 475 B&M And The Super Short, and now the North Forks are being done as well--two great combinations for big game, I am starting to think that the 475s are going to be very good! With these bullets! Maybe by the time I return I will have some dies to get started with the load data. I am going to build another 475 B&M on a stainless action too. One of those nice bastogne blanks will be going on a 475 B&M, either blue or stainless?

But, I ain't gone yet boys. I am still a couple weeks from leaving, so there is more work to be done.

Tomorrow 450NE and I will be working on his 458 B&M and his 416 B&M getting those ready. He is supposed to show up tomorrow, and we are looking very much forward to his first visit here as well!

Boomy, 450 made enough time to hang out a couple of days, something you need to do next time eh?

I made us a couple boxes of medium, just in case we think we might need to test some of those new .458 NonCons at higher velocities, we have not done that yet you know? We tested in 45/70. Was thinking maybe we need to work them out at slightly higher velocity, especially since I am taking some of the 370s with!

Michael

Will do Captain
Yeah see if you can do some post mortem Texas heart shots at 458 super short velocities. Get an idea of what you can expect on the Asiatic Buff. But that would require a bit of load development.

Michael,

Surely you don't expect good behavior in your absence

Strongly suggest taking along some sort of satellite communications capability, lest extreme depervation resulting from lack of Michael postings result in aberrant behavior on the part of the inmates that frequent this site!

On going status reports may take some of the edge off the withdrawl symptoms.

Videos of bullet impact absolutely necessary. I want to see the difference between a 50 cal and a 45 cal impact.

Michael,

Any chance there is some sort of index for this thread?

The info is fascinating, but I just don't have time to look through all of it.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Michael,

Any chance there is some sort of index for this thread?

The info is fascinating, but I just don't have time to look through all of it.

I have thought of that for several months now Andy, but just have not had time myself to go through it.



450NE and I are having a great time. We worked yesterday shooting his 458 and 416 B&M, getting iron sights sorted out, getting all his things together, brass, bullets, dies, the works. Big smiles on his face every single time he squeezed the trigger on his rifles. This morning we have a full day of it planned. We are going to work in some terminals today with those new 458 400/370 and 325/295 CEBs. As you recall we have done terminals on them at low and high 45/70 velocities, both in Sams double and a Marlin Guide gun. Now it is time to step that up a notch to the 458 B&M and the velocity it runs them at. I am taking a few of the 400/370s to do some test work with in the 458 B&M in Africa as well. They have perfect POI to work with the other heavier loads in the 458 B&M.

On my return we have MUCH work to do. Probably have the 475 dies in, so there will be much test work, terminals, and pressure trace on both those cartridges with the new CEBs and the new North Forks in both cartridges. I also have a lot of work to do with the new lighter .500s designed for the 50 B&M AK and the 50 B&M Super Short--and of course I must put a few of those in the 50 B&M as well, both terminals, load data and pressure traces on those! In addition, first of the week the new North Fork 450 bonded .500 caliber will be in hand and that will require some work as well. Although, if I can get POI with the 500 MDM I will be taking a few of those to field test too!!!!!

Lot's to do when I return, I would say that takes care of a large portion of the rest of the summer after my return.

Well off to the lab, much to prepare for the days activities!

Michael

Michael,

Glad to hear you and 450NE are having a good time. I knoww he is learning a lot and I can't wait to here all the details. Sorry I couldn't make it down to visit. I'm harvesting as hard as I can and no slowing down for probably two months.
You guys have a blast!!!!

Sam

I can't wait to see the results that prove 45-70 is a viable dangerous game ctg

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I can't wait to see the results that prove 45-70 is a viable dangerous game ctg

It's more the bullets than the cartridge but the testing has shown ample penetration it seems at 45-70 velocities. If I was hunting things that could kill me with a 45-70 I'd want to use the 325 and 295 grain 458 BBW #13's

Sam

Keep the berries moving, we had everything under control here, and managed to get a lot done in two days! But we did miss you no doubt and would have had a blast with you here too!

450NE and his lovely wife were such a pleasure to keep company with, we very much look forward to the visit after our return, so make a plan for that as well. Just have to put you up in the "BatCave" for a few days! LOL..........

450NE left with big smiles on his face! We shot irons on his 458 B&M, it did great. Better than us, as neither can see that good these days, his glasses 2 yrs old, mine new, but have not figured out how to shoot and wear glasses yet? Still working on that! But it seemed the bullets just kept hammering the center out, regardless of our deficiency's. We sorted his 416 B&M out, and his first three rounds of 325 BBW#13 NonCons at 50 yds went in 1 hole. I don't mean a clover leaf, I mean one could barely tell it was beyond 416 caliber!!!!!!!! It was slightly left, moved 3 clicks right, damned if he did not repeat what he had just done, only this time dead center, 1 inch high, just like I like it! I could not follow that, so I packed my mess and left! HEH HEH HEH....... I was ashamed to even get behind a trigger after that showing!

I did sneak a little bit over on 450NE however. I grabbed up one of the 50 B&M Super Shorts and took it out with some ammo. I had him playing with that for a bit, and just as I suspected he is on the hook for a 50 B&M Super Short now! Will be sending one up to have it put together for him, and he left with brass and dies to get started as well.


Those damned things are hard to resist! Especially after laying hands on.

We did some terminals with the 458 B&M and some of the new BBW#13s and I think he learned a lot about what we do and how it's done. He saw the destruction some of these bullets can do to the medium, which can't really be photographed and explained proper. Sorta another one of those things you have to witness to understand completely I think. I am so used to it, I pay it little or no mind anymore, but one that is not used to it, it's amazing I think.

450NE gave me a great idea that has sparked my interest in something. It's not really an official type test, but an interesting one I think. Going to save a couple of milk jugs and fill them. Put them inside the box, CONTAINED. Print behind them to catch things. And see how a NonCon does against that and where the blades go to? Hmmmmmm? Hmmmmmm? Did you hear that, Hmmmmm? Curious is all!


Andy

45/70 Dangerous Game Ctg. ? Hmmmmm? Yep, stirring that pot eh.

Boomy

quote:

It's more the bullets than the cartridge but the testing has shown ample penetration it seems at 45-70 velocities.

You catch on quick!!!!!

A proper bullet enhances any cartridge! Exactly why I do what I do. The B&Ms are very adequate cartridges, but like any cartridge, a good and proper working bullet will enhance them far beyond the design parameters! So, absolutely true, it's about the bullet and how it performs at the velocity the cartridge can run them to!

Speaking of which;

450NE and I did some test work with the 400 and 325 BBW#13 Solids in the 458 B&M. Increased velocity over the 45/70 work we did a few weeks ago. However, we did not really gain much, if any in penetration with the added velocity, which surprised me some, as this is greatly contrary to what we have experienced "to a point" with the other BBW#13s. Of course with most of those we have not really exceeded certain velocities and higher limits with the exception of some of the work done with the 500 MDM. In other words we have worked with the BBW#13s from 1400 to 2400 fps most of the time, and the vast majority from 2000-2300 or so. Seeing gains from 1800 to 2400 fps. It could be the shorter nose on these as well? Or, it could even be a medium issue too? Regardless of anything, the extra velocity from these bullets exhibited a very marked increase in trauma to medium for the first 15-20 inches--of that there is little doubt, great big gaping holes in the medium! It is also possible at these velocities these bullets hit so hard up front, exert so much energy to target, they slow down at an increased rate???? Lot's of noticeable trauma inflicted up front, no doubt. Anyway, these are things we will investigate further as we move forward.

First, the 400 CEB BBW#13 Solid. This bullet shoots within my limits of POI with the 458 B&M that I am taking on the trip, I intend to have a few of these, and the 370 NonCon along to do some shooting with.



And the 370 CEB BBW#13 NonCon, match to the 400 Solid.




As you see hardly no difference in overall penetration from the 45/70 tests. The big difference was in trauma inflicted up front with both Solid and NonCon.

Michael

With the 325 CEB BBW#13 Solid and it's matching 295 BBW#13 NonCon we see pretty much a repeat of the heavier bullets. Not a lot of difference in overall penetration, but lot's of difference in trauma inflicted.

The 295 BBW#13 NonCon was extraordinary, blowing roughly a 4-5 inch diameter hole in the witness card at 3-4 inches. Horrendous trauma. One could almost fit your fist in the hole without touching!






Michael

Michael,

I know you two guys had a blast and I'm sorry I missed it. Some guys have to work you know!! I look forward to hearing all about what you did.

Man you sure do sucker people in with those Super Short 50s. 450NE told me he wasn't going to buy another gun! I knew when he saw those guns and got to shoot them he'ed be in trouble.

Sam