quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael you have no reason to thank the peanut gallery. We have been blessed these past 41½ month to set back and watch the truly amazing efforts that Sam, Dan, and especially you have put into this ‘within-mass straight-line penetration journey’ to reach this point where we now have verified bullet manufacturers that we can patronize with the full assurance that their products will not fall us when time to pull-the-trigger arrives. Any efforts on our parts are nothing more than putting the sprinkles on top the icing; you three constructed everything beneath.

Also thanks to Boomy for slinging stuff against the wall on a regular basis…LOL…the ESP Raptors stuck and are turning out to be a truly fine bullets; time will tell just how multipurpose they are.

________________________________________________

Well said. All we have done is watch in awe the fantastic work that has been done! The tests and then the various field results to validate the test work!

Great stuff Doc M, and your friends Boomy, Sam, RIP et al

Regards

100%!!

Ahhh, Michael, calm down, talk to me, or you may have to see RIP for blood pressure and heart problems!
I have to concur with most of the comments made. I was a little unsure until I hit that large elk and pureed its insides. Now, I am a definite fan. As such, I have an order going in to CEB for bullets in all the lower calibers to be used by six friends this year. The average hunter does not use anything beyond .338 (note: average hunter), so this should add credence to smaller diameters that has already been accomplished with the larger calibers. Oh, and these cheapskate friends think its great that I'll be providing them with free ammo this year.

I have some more stuff to sling against the wall

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael you have no reason to thank the peanut gallery. We have been blessed these past 41½ month to set back and watch the truly amazing efforts that Sam, Dan, and especially you have put into this ‘within-mass straight-line penetration journey’ to reach this point where we now have verified bullet manufacturers that we can patronize with the full assurance that their products will not fall us when time to pull-the-trigger arrives. Any efforts on our parts are nothing more than putting the sprinkles on top the icing; you three constructed everything beneath.

Also thanks to Boomy for slinging stuff against the wall on a regular basis…LOL…the ESP Raptors stuck and are turning out to be a truly fine bullets; time will tell just how multipurpose they are.

I have stopped reading what so called "expert journalists" write.
Most of them are busy reading each others articles and copy parts of them for their own articles instead of doing some real life testing.
I guess also most of them are in the pockets of different companies busy promoting their products.

Here in this thread it is totally opposite.
People genuinely try to find and make better bullets and test them properly in different tests to really know for sure what works and what doesn't work.

I think lots of people here have done a great job and contributed in a very positive way

Just got my copy of Handloader and I read the article by Mr. Weiland. All I have to say is don't knock it until you try it. If you don't know what you are talking about and don't have any personal knowledge of a product then shut up until you have used it.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Stockbroker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:

Barsness is a better writer, they need to turn that column over to him, in the current crop of writers.
Seyfried was much better.
Aagaard long gone was lightyears ahead of Wieland in judgement and integrity.

Sad to say, Barsness seems to have turned into quite an elitist, and holds his opinion in high regard with little consideration for new or improved. His article last year on riflestocks
("Rifle Stock Design"-May/June 2011 SPORTS AFIELD) essentially inferred nothing new has come out in stock design or technology since the 1960's. Kind inquiries to consider otherwise were met with dead silence and high-brow attitude. Just sayin.
Would love to hear from other readers that don't think Barsness is full of himself, or that he treats them like real people???

All I meant was that Barfness was better than Wee-wee-land ... but that is not saying much, is it?
As you were.

The new guru in town: Doc M, Maharishi (Mah-huh-ree'-shee) McCourry

The old dogs that scribe for pay need to learn some new tricks, enlightenment best found here.

I'd really like to have a gun magazine the quality of Double Gun Journal where the writers tore after guns like the guys in Top Gear go after cars. Weelands remarks were clearly not based off of empirical knowledge, rather his interpretation, so it seems, of marketing material. This is not the same thing as wringing out a product then giving the facts of its performance with as Michael has done. Michael is The Stig!

It's a shame that in regards to most magazines honesty is for sale and the word integrity exists only in a dusty volume of Webster's in the bottom of the vertical file.

Michael,

If I were you I wouldn't be too upset about Wieland's article. I think his reaction is typical of what you can expect from the average Joe that isn't as familiar with what has been done as we are on this forum. When something new pops up on the horizon, the first reaction of most is disbelief. As you have said, even you didn't believe the results at first. I think it just shows that you need to get the word out better and to more hunters. That is going to take some time.

465H&H

465HH

Oh I understand skepticism, and that is just dandy. It was Wielands attitude, arrogance, and ridicule that was disturbing. Upset? Nahh, Pissed OFF, yes! Yes, it will take time, and the more that go to the field this year and seasons to come and see what I have seen, they will become a standard.

In the end game, Wieland is of very little consequence, or importance, as his credibility suffers.

Thanks
Michael

We made an excellent decision to widen the cavity of the various .500s and .510s. I did the LVSPs yesterday on all 3 of the new version .500s---335 BBW#13 NonCon #W23SS---365 BBW#13 NonCon #W21LG--and the 450 BBW#13 NonCon #W20. I was extremely pleased with the LVSP. Before, the LVSP was between 1800 and 1900 fps on these---Rather high. Today, the new wider cavity is down to 1500-1600 fps--huge increase in performance.

First the 335 BBW#13 NonCon W23SS--Designed around the 50 Super Short--but of course will work in any and all of the various .500s out there, mine, RIPs and Jims, and others as well. .500 has become a rifle caliber now and is here to stay.

I had chrono issues with my downrange chrono on these first tests with the 335. I also never experienced the point at which I did not get shear. With the lowest muzzle velocity of 1724 fps, and estimating the 48 yd impact at 1500 fps and change--to be on the safe side I called the LVSP at 1600 fps. Although I am sure it is somewhat lower. Estimated BC from the earlier 345 version was .151. Considering I can start this off in the 50 B&M Super Short at around 2300 fps this gives it out to around 150 yards, which is about as far as I would want to shoot this anyway as a straight NonCon. In the 50 B&M I am approaching 2600 fps--500 MDM--I don't know, probably getting close to 2900 or so I imagine, RIP could do 2900+ in his .500 easy. We know how the 350 Raptor performed at 2750 fps!





365 BBW#13 NonCon #W21LG----Lever Gun. Designed for the 50 B&M Alaskan lever gun, bands are further forward, shorter nose projection to work through the Marlins. LVSP a real true 1600 fps as at 1550 I did have one that did not shear at all--another that gave perfect shear. Two at 1622 fps impact sheared perfect. LVSP--1600 fps.




The New 450 BBW#13 NonCon--W20.

I tested down to 1516 fps and got perfect shear at that velocity. I did not have time to go lower with it--and declared its LVSP at 1500 fps, which was a 300 fps increase over the 460! Excellent. Starting this one off at 2285 fps in the 50 B&M this gives me to between 175-200 yards LVSP with an estimated BC of .171. Way more than enough as a standard NonCon. I can't imagine shooting anything that far to begin with, with this bullet. The 500 MDM can run it at 2500 fps. I did a test at a mere 2200 fps at the muzzle, 2021 fps at 48 yds--Massive Trauma inflicted in the medium X2 dead straight to 27 inches!!!! Way past buffalo penetration!




When the new W Talon Tips arrive, with the HPs--I will test these again to make sure the tips work, and in fact I think they will enhance the LVSP. New W Tips did in fact enhance LVSP in with the 350 Raptor, and the 9.3 tips enhanced the 210 Raptor as well, over standard NonCon LVSP.

New .510s have not arrived yet, should be this week. Now, with the 450 .500 going down to 1500 fps easy, the new 525 .510 will do 1500 fps and better for sure. Along with a new 475 gr or so NonCon that Sam ordered up with a new 500 gr Solid in .510! I have some of that order coming here as well! .510 is taking a jump forward! As you recall the 535 would not go below 1800 fps LVSP. At 1500 LVSP or lower, this works really good for you double guys starting out at 2000-2100 fps! Perfect.


Michael

With the incredible success of the .500 350 Raptor and the 9.3 210 Raptor, I have been thinking more serious about the lighter bullets in both .500 and more important right now, the 475 B&M. We have this 320 gr BBW#13 NonCon in .474 for the 475 Super Short, and a 375 North Fork CPS/FPS for the Super Short. But, I had not even worked a load for these bullet in the 475 B&M! I did a little of that this week as well. I now have the 320 BBW#13 NonCon at a tad over 2600 fps in the 18 inch barrel of the 475 B&M--Nice. Yesterday I got the 375 North Fork CPS at 2400 fps, and tested the North Fork! As you see, this North Fork is well into buffalo penetration! Hmmmmm?





That's it for the weekend chaps!

This week I have to work on these--.338 caliber 175 ESP Raptor--200 ESP Raptor. .308 caliber 100 ESP Raptor---130 ESP Raptor. All LVSP + full velocity as well. This will pretty much sort me out for the week on test work.

Michael

Michael,

Maybe I have missed it in all the pages of this thread but have you done penetration and barrel strain tests on the Nosler FN solid?

465H&H

Michael,
The tests look good, and you were testing low-level reliability. Of course, most of us would prefer over 20" penetration of the core for buffalo. While it is true that conventionals are deemed reliable at 16-18" in your medium, they also have a larger frontal surface for the last ten inches. If we give up that frontal surface it would be nice to get extra penetration.

We also know that things only get better when run to higher speeds. The 27" inches in the MDM sounds WONDERFUL. I look forward to keeping .510" impact velocites at over 2000 fps at 300 yards, 2500 fps at 100 yards. We want to see the new technology at work.

For 465:
Check the meplat measurements on the Noslers for any diameter FN solid. Both Michael and the Rathcoombe (Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories) studies [also a must read] point to instability entering the picture at around 60% meplat, depending on rifling-twist. 65% meplat is more reliable for straight-line penetration, and higher twist rates are better.

Michael, a wider HP in the CEB lever gun bullets should help them out with a lower velosity shear point. Just a thought.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Maybe I have missed it in all the pages of this thread but have you done penetration and barrel strain tests on the Nosler FN solid?

465H&H

465HH

Yes, way back we tested, we did a 500 gr Nosler in the 458 Lott. Depth was good, to 60 inches or so as I recall, however were not quite stable. They have a lot of bearing surface as well. Never tested in barrel strains, no one ever mentioned them. I really don't care too much for this particular bullet, at the time, I liked the barnes far better. Meplat is small as I recall, 60% maybe.

About as much as I can recall about them without looking it up.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Michael, a wider HP in the CEB lever gun bullets should help them out with a lower velosity shear point. Just a thought.

Keith

Keith

100% correct! We can run this bullet to 2100 fps in the 50 B&M Alaskan--estimated BC at .162 gives it a LVSP out to a tad over 100 yards. Which should be Lever Gun range to begin with. Currently the new 365 is as wide as it can go. So that is it!

Tanz

I was very pleased with the LVSPs on the .500s. Yes, I am very sure the .510s will match them. Do know, the new 450 BBW#13 NonCon was 21 to 23 inches at the very low velocity of 1500 fps impacts. Well into buffalo penetration.

As for the 335 and 365 when run up to velocity, penetration would indeed increase to buffalo levels I believe. I intend to find out with the 335 as we are taking a 50 Super SHort and a 475 Super Short to Australia end of July, on buffalo! I am betting on them!

Frontal surface on a conventional cannot equal the damage a noncon can do up front, nor the penetration followed. As far as I am concerned, you can add Conventionals to the "Endangered Species List".

I have also been working on the B&M site this morning! I have been busy updating the page concerning nothing but NonCons. Have been putting some comments from here, some photos you have already seen of the plains game, and things like that, to help further the education of how these work. Check it if you like, direct link to;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...ntional-Bullets.html


Nothing you have not already seen, but might be able to use for reference perhaps?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Maybe I have missed it in all the pages of this thread but have you done penetration and barrel strain tests on the Nosler FN solid?

465H&H

465HH

Yes, way back we tested, we did a 500 gr Nosler in the 458 Lott. Depth was good, to 60 inches or so as I recall, however were not quite stable. They have a lot of bearing surface as well. Never tested in barrel strains, no one ever mentioned them. I really don't care too much for this particular bullet, at the time, I liked the barnes far better. Meplat is small as I recall, 60% maybe.

About as much as I can recall about them without looking it up.

Michael

I just measured a .458 Nosler solid at .320 for a 69+ percent meplat size. I suspect the barrel strain will be on the high end though. Not a problem in a bolt rifle but may be marginal in a double.

465H&H

Michael, I ment that ALL of the LG CEB bullets would benifit from a larger HP. For a lowwer SV. Not just the .500 bullet.

There are a lot of 45-70s out there that cannot shand the pressures to reach ~ 2500 fps even with the 295 non-con. A shear point of 15-1600 fps would mean a bigger market for these bullets. Just a thought.

Keith

Keith

Keith

Gotcha! Yep, the .458s are basically as wide as they can go right now. The 295 has a higher LVSP than the 370, both designed for the lever guns. The 295 LVSP is 1750, while the 370 LVSP is 1650. The 370 has a little more ass behind it helping push those blades off. While I have not run pressure traces on the loads in 45/70 for these bullets, I did run the 295 to 2130 fps, the 370 to 2000 fps, neither showed any pressure issues at that, both in a Marlin. Probably looking at about the same LVSP range of 100-125 yds max. Not perfect, but within ranges of what most lever gun cartridges should be used for to begin with I think.

And, too, we must remember, that below LVSP these bullets become solids, while not great, or the most desirable situation, as we really like that shearing of the blades for trauma, but it still will not fail, as penetration is not compromised, but just increased. Not what one would actually call a "total"" failure I don't believe.

As time rolls on, we get more experience with the levers and deem it needed, there are some things that can be done to lower that LVSP---But, they are a bit tricky as the integrity of the blade walls are compromised, at higher velocities these can come apart before hitting the target! JD does some of this sort of thing with NonCons for sub-sonic use, I have several samples of these, and we discussed it at some length during his visit the other week. Something to ponder, if we find things coming up short. Right now, I think leave well enough alone for a bit.

Keep those ranges in mind when in the field.

Another thing I "THINK" I am seeing with the lever nose profiles, not really sure just yet, but it showed up even more yesterday with the difference between the 335 and the 365 in .500. The shorter nose profile--which is required and no real way around it--seems to have the cavity going deeper into the full shank of the bullet, than the longer nose profile, which has to effect LVSP as the blades would be thicker at that point, than the longer nose profile which has the angles higher on the nose! Blades thinner at the bottom than the shorter nose. Something I am looking at a little further to confirm, but that is a thought right now.

M

There are some solutions for low impact sheer that you should see in the Muzzle loader bullet. Also a plastic tip that maintains the BBW13 nose profile should help.

quote:

The shorter nose profile--which is required and no real way around it--seems to have the cavity going deeper into the full shank of the bullet, than the longer nose profile, which has to effect LVSP as the blades would be thicker at that point, than the longer nose profile which has the angles higher on the nose! Blades thinner at the bottom than the shorter nose.

Can one of the grooves be locared at the same level as the bottom of the HP, on the lighter bullet. Making for a lowwer SV? (on the lighter bullet)

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

The shorter nose profile--which is required and no real way around it--seems to have the cavity going deeper into the full shank of the bullet, than the longer nose profile, which has to effect LVSP as the blades would be thicker at that point, than the longer nose profile which has the angles higher on the nose! Blades thinner at the bottom than the shorter nose.

Can one of the grooves be locared at the same level as the bottom of the HP, on the lighter bullet. Making for a lowwer SV? (on the lighter bullet)

Keith

Keith/boomy

I think there are some things we can look at on the lever gun bullets. I do think it's important to get the LVSP down on those since starting velocities are lower. It's something that has been in the back of my mind, but first things first, at least get a lever gun bullet that will work, and then we can tweak it's performance. We are first stage right now! Soon as I can get some of the other issues sorted out, like the smaller bullets LVSP--I will make it a point to go to work on the lever gun bullets.

Michael

Michael,

It's to late in the game but it likely would have been easier from the beginning to have optimized the lever gun bullets for use in the Winchester lever rifles and then optimized a slightly shorter case for use in the Marlin rifles for use with the same bullet. Just saying.

Jim

True. However the problem of economics starts to rear its ugly head! Really just don't make good sense to have two different kind of lever gun bullets--even I would get confused. Best to be a compromise of sorts-one bullet feeds and functions through all. For the Win/Browning M71s, or the 1886s in 45/70, one can just load out a band for the extra length they can handle over the shorter marlin action. Also, I have found my Win/Brownings can handle a bit more pressure as well without issue, and my personal preference is the M71 for the 50 B&M AK, and a cut down 18 inch 1886 for the 45/70s. A 18 inch 1886 with the NECG barrel band fronts makes a classy 45/70 rig--about the same overall length of the marlin as well. But with the 50 B&M AK, same length barrel I can get 500 gr bullets to damn near 2000 fps in the M71s. Layne with his 22 inch Marlin is getting 1950 with the 500s and staying under 45000 PSI. But, the load I can use in the M71s would get sticky in the Marlin.

M

quote:

A 18 inch 1886 with the NECG barrel band fronts makes a classy 45/70 rig-

Got any pics?

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

A 18 inch 1886 with the NECG barrel band fronts makes a classy 45/70 rig-

Got any pics?

Keith

I think so, if not, I will take some!

M

Keith





This is Laynes rifle.

I was thinking of an Elmer Keith inspired 45-70 Non Con levergun bullet. Three bands and the nose protrusion would be sub bore. One rear band and the forward bands to be narrow and angled for crimp. .450" shank, .458 bore, .5" nose protrusion, .45" sub bore BBW nose profile protrusion in front of top band, cavity depth to sub bore nose protrusion length, sub bore diameter before conical nose between .430" and .420" to be about 275 grains and travel out at about 2,300 fps. The KNC or Keith Non Con.

Michael, thanks for the pics. Those barrel band front sights really do look good on those lever action rifles. Those rifles are really first class!


Boomy, this is what you NEED to do. Just go out and buy you a CNC Swiss screw machine, set it up in your shop, learn how to program it, operate it, and care of it. Then you can make every bullet you can dream up.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

True. However the problem of economics starts to rear its ugly head! Really just don't make good sense to have two different kind of lever gun bullets--even I would get confused. Best to be a compromise of sorts-one bullet feeds and functions through all. For the Win/Browning M71s, or the 1886s in 45/70, one can just load out a band for the extra length they can handle over the shorter marlin action. Also, I have found my Win/Brownings can handle a bit more pressure as well without issue, and my personal preference is the M71 for the 50 B&M AK, and a cut down 18 inch 1886 for the 45/70s. A 18 inch 1886 with the NECG barrel band fronts makes a classy 45/70 rig--about the same overall length of the marlin as well. But with the 50 B&M AK, same length barrel I can get 500 gr bullets to damn near 2000 fps in the M71s. Layne with his 22 inch Marlin is getting 1950 with the 500s and staying under 45000 PSI. But, the load I can use in the M71s would get sticky in the Marlin.

M

I understand Michael. Guess I wasn't very clear...I meant 1 bullet optimized for performance in the lever guns but 2 case lengths, one case length for the Winchester and a shorter case length for the Marlin. But you did it the easiest way which works very well.

Not a bad idea Keith.

quote:

Michael, thanks for the pics. Those barrel band front sights really do look good on those lever action rifles. Those rifles are really first class!

Keith, no thanks needed. I like the barrel bands too. Seems to me, they just add a lot of class to the overall look of the rifle. Not cheap however.

Jim

Oh for sure, I could shorten cases no issue, and have done a lot of that in years past. In fact, Layne really wanted to use that 300 gr Hornady flex tip bullet in his Marlin--but it's too long to work through the Marlin action. So I shorten 10 cases--Very short, I think down to 2 inches, maybe a tad less, so that bullet could be loaded to the cannelure, crimped in place, and work through the Marlins. This was a perfect solution for that particular bullet, running it up to over 2400 fps at 41000 PSI, zero issues.

I have lot's of guys ask about this sort of thing, trying to get a particular bullet to work, but overall length is too long? Cut the Case to make it fit! They think I am nuts--But I have been doing that for 20 years on all sorts of cartridges. Zero issues.

One does have to segregate those cases from standard ones however.

Michael

Silly question; but what is your favorite case trimmer?

quote:

Originally posted by Stockbroker:
Silly question; but what is your favorite case trimmer?

I think Michael said he paid a local guy to do this case cutting/trimming.

But he has quite a bit of case trimming equipment on the bench...

quote:

Originally posted by Stockbroker:
Silly question; but what is your favorite case trimmer?

His Name is Jerry!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Stockbroker:
Silly question; but what is your favorite case trimmer?

His Name is Jerry!

Ah, there we are with those excellent come through for you in a pinch with relevant pertinent details not available from the serious sources..."as seen on AR"...
Y'all are the best...or, whatever.

OK OK--Besides my main case trimmer--Jerry! I use the RCBS Pro-2 Power Case trimmer along with the RCBS Case Prep Center. At Midway below;

http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...trimmer-kit-110-volt

http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...prep-center-110-volt


I hate trimming cases--But it is a necessary evil!

My man Jerry does all the cutting and trimming to make basic B&M brass.

M

Michael

In your opinion, is the 416 325 non-con good to go on something like lion or should I look at something softer like the 325 gr NF bonded or the Barnes 300 gr ?


SSR

Cross

No doubt about it, the 325 NF, or even 300 TSX would hammer down on lion, I would use them with great confidence at as much velocity as I could get.

But the most wicked SOB on the planet would be a NonCon from 300-325 at velocity! Wicked!

A front end hit with one of those--there is no such thing as survival.



I don't get Paid enough $$ to do LVSP! Low Velocity Shear Points! Wait a minute? I don't get paid period! Hmmmmmm? J-H-F-C I am sick to death of LVSP! It's so TIME CONSUMING!

Did the 338 200 ESP Raptor today--with D-Tip installed LVSP so Far down to 1670 fps impact! Perfect Shear, excellent penetration. I got tired of it and did not take it lower.

M