Dawnwhore
Whats your rate?
Do you calculate it in the number of spadefuls you remove fro that hole of yours

Forgive me, but what is AG importing that violates the Lacey Act?

The leopard was not taken illegally, at least from what I can tell.

As for the bribe, the Lacey Act deals with illegally taken game, not other infractions. But hey, I am not a lawyer.

I still frankly don't see a problem with Adam using DawnRoar as his spokesman. It is his duck...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Forgive me, but what is AG importing that violates the Lacey Act?

The leopard was not taken illegally, at least from what I can tell.

As for the bribe, the Lacey Act deals with illegally taken game, not other infractions. But hey, I am not a lawyer.

On the whole I tend to agree with you....... That said if the elephant was a cow and he didn't have a cow permit that could be a problem.......then again I'm not an expert on law pertaining to this matter......

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

originally posted by Dawnroar:
"PH says shoot and that is what you do...period."

Yep that's a classic!!!

Brett

I think if AG imports only the leopard he would have no problem.

Just a hunch, but I seriously doubt he would have any problems with any of his stuff.

I am not making any excuses for AGs behavior, but if you read all the hunting rules, I am sure some of you have broken some. TAA had a show a while back in which they left camp in Tanzania before sunrise. Isn't that technically against the law? What about shooting DG with a .338? Is that a Lacey Act violation?

There is poaching, and then there are game violations. The two are not the same.

This is sort of like a party line, some folks cannot help but rubber other people's phone calls . . . and they say that women gossip and talk smack . . . yea right.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
This is sort of like a party line, some folks cannot help but rubber other people's phone calls . . . and they say that women gossip and talk smack . . . yea right.

Public Forum

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
This is sort of like a party line, some folks cannot help but rubber other people's phone calls . . . and they say that women gossip and talk smack . . . yea right.

Good point.

This should strictly be a "Real Man Forum," where if you don't have an elephant kill on your avatar, can't age 9 of 10 lions correctly, or haven't hunted in Africa at least 10 times you shouldn't be allowed to post. Me? I am not afraid of my feminine side.

First you call this a trial by internet then you liken it to a bunch of women gossiping. You clearly have a problem with the whole thread. Why don't you just stop reading it if it bothers you?

Good point, I will.

Why shouldn't i sell the ele skin? They said they would buy it. It's staying in Zim. If it was illegal than why would a tasidermy co. thats been in business for years put themselves at risk over 126 bucks? And how would i get into trouble over that?

Same with the tusks. If Parks imspects them and conclude that they are female they will start an investigation, hold the tusks forever and probably delay the rest of my trophys for who knows how long. How would i get in trouble that way? My trophys would be in trouble but not me.

The bushbuck and kudu are different though.
When i go to the docks to pick them up i will tell them my name is Don Roar. I'm sure that will make it all good!!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Forgive me, but what is AG importing that violates the Lacey Act?

The leopard was not taken illegally, at least from what I can tell.

As for the bribe, the Lacey Act deals with illegally taken game, not other infractions. But hey, I am not a lawyer.

On the whole I tend to agree with you....... That said if the elephant was a cow and he didn't have a cow permit that could be a problem.......then again I'm not an expert on law pertaining to this matter......

Brett

....oh yes and the bushbuck too since it was taken in an illegal manor. Again I'm not an attorney.

Brett

I can't see the feds on this side doing anything but taking my trophys away. If they are going to hang me because of this thread than they will also know the PH told me to shoot. I think we already went over the knowing of the game laws in Zim. The PH is not supposed to put you into a position where you are breaking the law. So who's at fault the PH for telling me to shoot or me pulling the trigger.

Id say the one who did the shooting is at fault.

If thats the case than why do even need a PH then? tx308 have been to Africa?

Nope never been, but when i do go Im certain my ethics will go with me.

They shot the bushbuck in a stately (albeit one that is somewhat criminally inclined) mansion!? In Sidjarira?

This could go another 13 pages!

Deleted

I have given up on listening to people talking about "ethics" on the Internet.

I had a first hand experience with an individual who sounded like the most ethical person one cold wish for.

In the field, though, he was the most UNETHICAL idiot I had the misfortune to ever meet!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have given up on listening to people talking about "ethics" on the Internet.

I had a first hand experience with an individual who sounded like the most ethical person one cold wish for.

In the field, though, he was the most UNETHICAL idiot I had the misfortune to ever meet!

Then why do you keep taking Walter with you on your hunts?

465H&H

Had to be Russell

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have given up on listening to people talking about "ethics" on the Internet.

I had a first hand experience with an individual who sounded like the most ethical person one cold wish for.

In the field, though, he was the most UNETHICAL idiot I had the misfortune to ever meet!

Mike Tyson said everybody had a plan until they got punched in the mouth. I think it pertains to hunting as well. A lot of guys are "ethical" hunters until a trophy steps out. I've seen big antlers make grown men stupid in a matter of seconds

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

originally posted by Dawnroar:
"PH says shoot and that is what you do...period."

Instant AR classic!!!!! This is just too rich!

I can appreciate sticking up for a buddy but sometimes the best thing you can do for them is to call them a dumbass when they act like one

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
Why shouldn't i sell the ele skin? They said they would buy it. It's staying in Zim. If it was illegal than why would a tasidermy co. thats been in business for years put themselves at risk over 126 bucks? And how would i get into trouble over that?

All Gone,

Just wondering what you filled in on the Immigration form as the reason to visit Zimbabwe? Sport Hunting? Or "Business",i.e. trading in animal products? Are you going to fill in the gains from this sale on your Zimbabwe, or USA Income Tax form? Just wondering......?

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
I can't see the feds on this side doing anything but taking my trophys away. If they are going to hang me because of this thread than they will also know the PH told me to shoot. I think we already went over the knowing of the game laws in Zim. The PH is not supposed to put you into a position where you are breaking the law. So who's at fault the PH for telling me to shoot or me pulling the trigger.

I'm not an attorney. I suggest you consult one before importing the elephant (***if it's a cow***) or the bushbuck. The bushbuck was taken contrary to Zimbabwean game laws and the elephant if it's a cow was taken without a permit. That said if you import them my understanding is that would violate the Lacey Act. Violating the Lacey Act is a *****FELONY*****. That means sure trophy forfiture, but also possible incarceration, fines, and the life long loss of firearms privilages in the US. That I would take serious and again I would STRONGLY consider asking an attorney before importing the bushbuck or elephant (***if it's a cow***). I'm not trying to rain on your parade and I do not mean to cause you problems. I'd hate to see you get busted like that after such a poor experience.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Had to be Russell

Actually, I think it was a guy who came before Russell.

The situation was quite similar in some ways.

It made for an interesting thread back in the day. I seem to remember something about an eland with milk on its lips....

He shot a very young eland, so that he did not come back to camp without one!

He was not too impressed when I asked him why did he shoot a suckling eland!

quote:

Actually, I think it was a guy who came before Russell.

Just for the record and so I don't get skinned in this thread... it was a different Russell!!!

Sorry Bwana, I most certainly was referring to a different Russell.

Would that be the I'm-taking-so-much-money-I'll-need-a-money-belt Russell?

Wonder if his daddy is still smacking him with a 2x4?

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
...they will also know the PH told me to shoot.

And if Adam or the PH told you to jump off a bridge or buy a piece of land in TX, would you do it now?

It's funny: sometimes low values, crappy and/or sleezy booking agents attract same from clients...only time will tell if this is the case here.

How about you, "ALL GONE" and a few folks from AR show up at the SCI National Convention and speak with Adam there, in front of possible new clients? Adam sure doesn't want to ever come here and address all the issues!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
...I suggest you consult one before importing the elephant (***if it's a cow***) or the bushbuck. Violating the Lacey Act is a *****FELONY*****. That means sure trophy forfiture, but also possible incarceration, fines, and the life long loss of firearms privilages in the US.... Brett

It is my understanding that if Adam and Adam Clements Safari Trackers knowlingly help import the trophies for "All Gone", then they are accomplices to violating the Lacey Act too!! DawnRoar, if involved, might also lose his ability to practice law in the U.S. too

Looks like AC has "lawyered up" and if AG is smart he would be too.

I don't see there EVER being a winner here, at the end of the day it will suck, and five years from now it will still suck. Yeah, it is sort interesting to watch, but there is not going to be a winner.

AMEN TO THAT!!!

Guys, why do you continue to want to put your nose into a situation where you are actually doing more harm than good with this whole situation? It is very disturbing to see how the hunting community is always fighting and always looking to turn things into a bigger negative. AR has turned into a more negative place than what I remember it ever being, and it appears that certain posters thrive on drama and misfortune of others. If I was a non-hunter or bystander, I would think that the hunting community is not only a soap box, but a bunch of people who rarely stand together. It seems to me that with this continued approach, being so judgmental and quick to jump into others business, that you will self destruct. I don’t see the anti-hunters arguing amongst themselves or looking for ways to destruct one of their own! The more you continue to do what you are doing on this site, the more you are going to endanger the hunting community.

Yes, every outfitter, agent, and hunter has, or will have, a problem or make a mistake in one way or the other. That is life in any business. It is NOT up to you to judge those involved, and push for dirty laundry to be shared on the internet for simple enjoyment. It would be more respectful to listen to any problem and let the parties involved work out a solution. Then, after a solution is made, you can make your own assumptions and agree or disagree. To continue to make already bad situations into a worse situation, is not the way we should be if we are on the same team! You may not like me for one reason or another and that is fine, and I respect your decision to not like me, but a wise man is one who listens. For some of you, you have no time for listening because your mouth is always open. I do appreciate all of the publicity and never knew that my name would cause such attention.

I am not placing blame on Richard for this situation, and as I stated previously, I feel terrible for how the safari turned out for him. I am also not hiding as some of you accuse, I simply do not think the internet is a place to discuss things about clients, nor do I think it is the place to sort my business with clients, be it good or bad situations. Unfortunately, I have been forced to do so now. I also see that Richard is continuing to play to the public attention and keep making statements that are not true. Some of you, including Richard, are accusing me of placing the blame on Richard, which I am not. Richard is the one who decided to bring all of this and his accusations to the public. You then ask for my response and my side of the story, but when it is not what you want to hear, I become the bad guy. I was (am) simply trying to put the pieces together, pieces that I had after the safari, and I am trying to help Richard with what has happened. I simply asked Richard questions so I would know what cards I had to deal. I stated what happened, based on what I got from all parties. It is all hearsay to me, as I was not there. I have to try and take both sides of the story and then work toward a solution. I have to trust all my outfitters and PH’s anytime I book a client. For me to be able to fully help a client with any situation, I need to know the whole truth and not just bits and pieces, as in this case. I did not have the whole truth and it damaged my influence when negotiating. You can believe what you want, but I went to bat for Richard and gave everything I had. I was in his corner on this issue, which is why I ended up putting more on the table personally and actually took 100% of the blame with everything I gave and offered Richard. Maybe that is why Richard stated to me last week that he would not have a problem at all booking another hunt with me in the future!
To those of you that are my greatest fan haters, do not take such offense when some of my friends and clients say something about me or on my behalf. Again, if you don’t like me that is fine, but stay out of my business. It is very easy to attack someone behind your computer and play quarterback.

My goal is for 100% of my clients and safaris to go hassle free, unfortunately, it is just unrealistic when I have to trust others. I am thankful that the overwhelming majority of my clients have successful safaris, without misfortune! That is really why some of you don’t like me in the first place is because of my success and you are loyal to other agents or outfitters, and that is great. I am blessed with a great, loyal clientele, who support me and continue to be repeat clients every year!

Let me break down the entire situation for you, which I hope will answer some of your questions:

Why did I book Richard with Jimba safaris?
Jimba Safaris has produced good safaris for my clients in the past two years and I have enough references and e-mails from past clients stating they had good safaris with good trophies. Yes, there were a few (3 to be exact) that returned, and although shot great trophies, told me they did not like Tim. At this point I made it clear that only Wayne was to hunt my clients, or that one of my TZ PH’s was to hunt my clients, if they were not hunting in TZ hunting. This area also provided very affordable hunting and matched Richard’s budget. I gave Richard several other options to choose from like Mokore, Zambezi Hunters , but all of these outfitters were double the price for what Richard wanted. I also e-mailed Richard pictures of the area, and explained what he could expect from the area including elephant, so he would have a good idea of what to look for when there. I also gave Richard 12 references who had hunted the area with Jimba, which he said he called all of them. Therefore, I do not think I made any mistake in booking Richard on this safari. Wayne took a great 75 pound elephant for another client of mine earlier this year and took several good elephants last year.

Why did I not tell Richard about Tim?
Why would I need to tell Richard about Tim when there was no intention or thought of him hunting with Tim? I booked the hunt with Wayne and was assured Wayne would do the hunt. I never even considered or thought that Wayne would not do the hunt. I still don’t understand why Richard or Wayne never let me know before the hunt of the change? Wayne should have told me first of all and that was his big mistake, but Richard should have also checked with me as soon as he knew of the change to get my thoughts as he did with everything else. I know there are other agents here who have outfitters they use who also have certain PHs who they do not want to hunt there clients and doubt seriously they tell their clients ahead of time who they are. You have to trust the outfitter will do as promised.

After the Safari what happened?
The very first phone call I got from Richard after his safari, about a week later, he expressed that his greatest concern was to make sure his trophies were handled correctly and would be shipped. His exact comment to me was that he had a great safari and enjoyed the experience. He then said that he was not sure, but thought that maybe his elephant was on the small side. I asked him to send me pictures for me to see, which he did a day later. As stated earlier, I was furious at the elephant that I saw in the picture and immediately tried to call Wayne. When I did not get him, I sent him an e-mail, with many choice words, demanding an explanation, told him to call me asap, and expressed that he better fire Tim. I told Richard that his elephant was small, that I was very upset about it, and that I was already in the process of trying to get in touch with Wayne. More importantly, I asked him to be patient while I figured things out. He never once mentioned or asked me about any refund at all at this time and was only interested in his trophies. So, while I was waiting to hear back from Wayne, my office and myself, got to work on making sure all his trophies were at the taxidermist and being taken care of. I talked to Wayne a few days later and went over everything with him, and at that point got his side of the story. He was not happy with the elephant either and told me he did fire Tim. I asked him what he would be willing to do for Richard, as this was not a trophy elephant and he needed to consider refunding something. Richard only mentioned to me, about 2 weeks later, if maybe it would be possible to get half of the trophy fee back. I told him I was still working on this with Wayne and thought I could get a refund for him, but I needed him to be patient. I did tell him that I was dealing with another side to the story, and of course, that they were saying that if the client pulls the trigger and decides he wants the animal or not type stuff. I again assured him that I was working through it with Wayne and was still trying to come up with something for him. I also told him that I would refund my commission as well.

I then got a call from Wayne, who seemed very agitated, and he then told me about the buffalo. He told me that Richard had wounded and lost a buffalo, bribed the game scout, and that the buffalo was found dead after the hunt. He explained that this put him in a very bad position, and said that Richard was very dishonest and was not man enough to tell us of what happened. He felt that Richard wanted to make him look bad and smear his name and company instead of telling the whole story. Wayne agreed that the elephant should not have been shot and why he was thinking about working with me on some type of refund for Richard, but now that he found out about hiding the Buffalo and that Richard was not honest also disgusted him. My hands at that time were tied!

I then called Richard and asked about the buffalo, again as I have already stated all of this earlier.

What about all the questions about the money?
Very simple again! This hunt that Richard booked was a 14-day package hunt that included elephant, leopard and buffalo all included in the package. I book a lot of package hunts to Namibia, South Africa, North America etc., and ALL package hunts that are booked with a client, the entire money for the package gets sent to the outfitter before the hunt. You do not hold back trophy fees which are included in a package hunt. This was a package hunt and all money for the package hunt was sent prior to the hunt, as we do with any other outfitters we book package hunts for. The only money we had of Richard’s, after his safari was the $10,000 he had on credit for any other trophy fees, baiting and any extra expenses. Note, to Richard’s favor, one of the stipulations to his package hunt and included in his contract, I had Wayne agree to refund the trophy fees to any animals that were not taken in the package. Again, because Richard’s main concern upon his return was his trophies, my accounting office sent Wayne the trophies fees for his bushbuck, kudu, impala, bait female kudu, bait impala, day tour at Falls etc. Of course, we sent the money for the extra animals and expenses in order to make sure all bills were paid and there was no hold up on his trophies. It was after we had paid the final bill that Richard then asked me why I sent the elephant trophy fee to Wayne. I told Richard that because his trophies were the main concern, that I did not even think to ask my office NOT to send anymore money to cover the final bill as we were doing our job to ensure that his trophies were handled and completed correctly. He then turns it around and accuses me of saying I forgot to tell my office not to send the ele trophy fee. That is not true at all and a perfect example of Richard trying to misquote me and make me look bad. To make it clear, after Richard’s hunt not only did I not send any trophy fee money specifically for the elephant, I likewise did not send a dime for the excellent leopard he killed. That money was in Wayne’s hands before the hunt started as any package hunt would work.

Richard keeps claiming that I am not taking blame for anything, which again is not true! If you look at everything I have managed to do and return to Richard, despite all of the lies and accusations, you see that I have stepped up to the plate. I have given Richard back half the trophy fee in cash, as well as the other half in the form of $5,000 credit for a hunt in TZ if so wishes. If you guys don’t see or get that I have taken most of the brunt of everything myself, for events that happened without my knowledge, then I don’t know what else to say.

Now, I see that Richard has again tried to twist my words around to make me look bad stating I told him that Wayne offered different tusks. Richard again has twisted this. I told Richard in a phone conversation that I had talked to Wayne and Wayne was not happy that Richard had not responded to Wayne’s e-mail or phone message, so he could talk in person and see what the two of them could work out. Wayne made a wise crack to me on the phone, saying that if Richard does not want to talk to him about the situation, “What does Richard want me to do? Give him different tusks? I Can’t do that, so tell him to respond to my phone message and let me talk to him in person.” Richard only took one portion of Wayne’s comment to make it look worse, but it was a wise crack from Wayne and nothing more. Wayne has wanted to talk to Richard in person now.

Richard stated that he knew it was bull elephant, and now you are questioning if it is female or not? Why have you not questioned all of his other incorrect statements and accusations? If you guys are as smart as you say you would clearly see all of the different statements Richard has made sometime contradicting himself and realize there is a credibility issue. Yet I still act civil and still continue to take the heat, personal attacks and still willing to help Richard!

I do find it interesting that Richard gets majority of his money back for the ele and then claims to you all that he is not interested in the trophy yet he is selling some of its skin and again not telling you all of the details. Now after the comments on the ele he shoots off another quick e-mail today in a panic to the taxidermists and us asking if the elephant is legal or if it was a cow and if so he does not want it! I thought he clearly stated in one of his posts before he shot it that he “knew it was a bull.” Now he claims he does not know. Does he know anything really except how to question his own ethics and how to try to put all the blame on me for things I never knew about? Yup, I am the bad guy for trying to work through and sort out the clients mess!

I have answered all of the main questions that I am being accused of. I am sure that my “fans” will continue to chalk everything up as me not doing my job and turning things around on the client. If you want to go to the internet and start smearing and making accusations, then expect for all the truth to come out, and when it turns on the client, then I am the bad one. I have done everything I can and have stepped up to the table with Richard even after his personal attacks on me. Even as of today, we are still working with Richard on his trophies and he likes to be nice when he wants something and then turns around and personally attacks me and my company on the internet.

Richard was not to blame for the elephant and 100% the fault of the PH, which we all agree on! The PH has been fired according to Wayne. But, in his pursuit of public approval he has turned a bad situation into a worse situation for all involved including a bruise on Zimbabwe.

I really wish I could post all of the credibility issues and statements that Richard has clearly put on AR and between this post and his hunting report, there are many statements to prove that Richard is simply making up some of his stories to make him look good when in fact they actually question his credibility and personal ethics! It is very clear now with some of his latest statements that he has turned even his own posting into sleezy name calling and offers of charity. This is the kind of guy that all of you believe word for word?

There are no winners here as the cheering crowd has forced this into an internet frenzy. Sorry to disappoint some of you, but I have not lawyered up, and have not paid for any legal help as there is no reason to! I have not done anything illegal, nor have I not conducted my business professionally. I believe it is Richard stating how he has done so much illegal stuff and then acting like he is clueless of basic ethics and attemps to blame me for his lost principles. Those of you who attack my friend and client DawnRoar for not buying into this fiasco, just shows that you only want to see a one way street and don’t like it when someone questions things on here. Name calling really proves your intentions and your lack or common sense.

Again, I thank you all for the publicity as most people on the sidelines can see through all of this and see that I did step up to the plate and did help Richard out. Many e-mails from people who can’t believe the children’s play on AR and some of you make AR look worse than what you try to me make me look. So, great job to all of you for showing how the hunting community loves to attack each other.

Do you pay a PH to tell you to jump off a bridge or buy land in TX??

quote:

Originally posted by Hunter54:

quote:

Originally posted by All Gone:
...they will also know the PH told me to shoot.

And if Adam or the PH told you to jump off a bridge or buy a piece of land in TX, would you do it now? .

Adam you are unbelievable! You have have twisted this around so much it is laughable.
I wouldn't of believed it if i hadn't seen it!

One of the biggest is me saying it was a bull ele. I said i had know idea what it was only that it was very small.

You know as well as i do that you asked me about Wayne wanting to send bigger tusks, then what i told you. You were not kidding! I suppose you had to turn that story around because that one would have looked VERY BAD for you.

I asked for a refund a few days after i got home from the hunt and you know it! I asked for half until i relized it was a calf!

What is up with you Adam!?

I think that most guys would like to know what PH's to stay away from. I know i sure as hell would!

I thought you said you had to stay nice and civil with Wayne because of your extreme concern for my trophys?

You never offered the commission until i brought this to AR!

So it sounds like your saying that Wayne sent the buff trophy fee back after he said he found it dead? Really Adam? Really? Adam, you said you forgot and you know it!

I absalutly did send an e-mail to the taxidermy co. today asking them not to send the tusks because what i am hearing from people who know that it is indeed a female. Like i said before from what i'm hearing parks will start an investigation and hold up the other trophys for who knows how long. Plus i asked them if was legal for them to buy ele skin. And if it was not than add the 126 dollars back on my bill please.