quote:

Originally posted by RMDNDNGRUS:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Mac is entitled to call anybody here "Son" except Ray A.
Those two must call each other "Brother."
It is an age thing.

Well I'm certainly willing to accept his "son" refence as a fatherly taking me under his wing admonishment, if thats how it was intended.

RMDNDNGRUSI'm sorry if you took my use of the word "SON" as derogatory, because it certainly wasn't meant that way! It is just the my eldest child is 51 yrs old, and the youngest of the four is 43 yrs old, so everyone is SON to me. I Meant do disrespect, but you must admit "SON" is a whole lot easier to write than "RMDNDNGRUS" !

Is Carmelo back?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

RMDNDNGRUSI'm sorry if you took my use of the word "SON" as derogatory, because it certainly wasn't meant that way! It is just the my eldest child is 51 yrs old, and the youngest of the four is 43 yrs old, so everyone is SON to me. I Meant do disrespect, but you must admit "SON" is a whole lot easier to write than "RMDNDNGRUS" !

Yea, son certainly is easier I agree, and your son is 10 years older than I, so I'm a sprout for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
for buff and elephant is is 4000ft-lbs, more or less

I forgot to add earlier, 4000fpe is doable for the 45-70. Maybe if we started calling it the 458Express in these modern loadings it would be more palatable?

I don't own a 45-70 firearm at all, so I don't have a dog in this fight (I want a custom half-stock Springfield Trapdoor, but that's another project).

What amuses me is the number of people here who have strong (and I mean strong) opinions about how unsuitable the cartridge is for big game, but offer no empirical evidence that this is true.

I'm a neurosurgeon, and over the years there have been new ideas about old surgeries/treatments posited, and when someone questions what we hold as "true", the howls go out.
Yet it seems, that when those ideas are tested, the more strongly someone clings to a given idea, the more likely it is to be wrong.

The question of whether a hot loaded 45-70 is powerful enough for buffalo is easily testable...there is no need to argue about it.

You don't need to shoot 100 consecutive buffalo either (although that would be a very good test)...there are perfectly good test media to use instead.

The more strongly I hear people say "it won't work" without objective evidence to support their views, the more likely I am to believe it will work just fine.

Garrett

Rmdndngus,

What velocities do you get from you current SS Guide gun 45/70? I saw that you were disappointed in your loads, but I guess I missed your velocities with the bullets you mentioned?

I wish you good luck on your safari. Please give us a full report when you return!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Rmdndngus,

I saw that you were disappointed in your loads,

I was? Where?

quote:

The question of whether a hot loaded 45-70 is powerful enough for buffalo is easily testable...there is no need to argue about it.

It been done and more than once so the 45/70 is powerful enough to kill a capebuff. I don't think anyone said it wasn't. What people did say is that:
1.) It is illegal where they are free range.
2.) It isn't enough, or may not be enough, for less than optimal situations.

The emperical evidence strongly supports both.

Personally, I think it would be fine "most" of the time. And come up short when you really need the performance. So why bother when there are so many better options.

JPK

Gentlemen,

Before any more time and bandwidth is wasted beating this dead horse perhaps since Mr. RMDNDNGRUS is fairly new to these parts he should be encouraged to spend some time perusing a few of the following threads:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/408104903/p/1
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=470109701#470109701
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=516101706#516101706
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=167106213#167106213
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/394103621/p/1
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=556109801#556109801
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/6721014/p/1
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/8311057/p/1


And for comic relief here are a few of the mother of all 45-70 for DG threads; some classics from the infamous Carmelo.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/397100313/p/1
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=523109911#523109911
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=490102021#490102021
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=433102021#433102021
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=690102021#690102021

Hello Gentlemen-Please accept my confusion on this topic seriously. How is it that a like sized bullet penetrating an animal can have more stopping power than another? considering meaningful factors like momentum that relate directly to how hard a bullet strikes an animal and then transfers its energy into penetration. I have read that a tuff 458 bullet will plow right through the shoulders of buffalo and proceed downrange from most any lever rifle. If this bullet comes from a 458 Lott or a 459 45/70 how does one produce more stopping power than the other. I understand about energy figures and how they do not produce penetration as momentum does. I'm not sure that kinetic energy translates to any measurable physical quantity anyway and that momentum is the physical property that produces broken bones and penetration. Please explain in practical matters and not in lawyer terms. Respectfully, Boltaction

quote:

but have been very satisfied with what I can get out of the 45-70 and handloads, from a 350gr HRNDY to 560gr cast Lyman borerider

Sorry, I miss read the post. So, what kind of chronographed velocities are you getting from your Guide Gun? I'd be interested in hearing about the 560 borerider.

A simple search here for " Zimbabwe joules" finds:

"The Third Schedule of the Firearms Act for Zimbabwe:

(1) This states a caliber of no less than 9.2 mm in diameter with muzzle energy of 5.3 kilojoules is required for elephant, buffalo and hippo.
(2) A caliber of no less than 7 mm in diameter with muzzle energy of no less than 4.3 kilojoules is required for lion, giraffe and eland.
(3) A caliber of no less than 7mm in diameter with muzzle energy of no less than 3 kilojoules is required for crocodile, hyena, kudu, leopard, nyala, sable, waterbuck, wildebeest, zebra, etc.

Joules x 0.7376 = Foot-Pounds

5.3 kilojoules = 3,909 ft lb
4.3 kilojoules = 3,171 ft lb
3.0 kilojoules = 2,212 ft lb"

The title of your thread here is " Garrett Cartridges" and anyone can plainly see that they do not meet the legal Zimbabwe energy requirements. According to their web site listings.

quote:

Originally posted by j. lawrence:
Hello Gentlemen-Please accept my confusion on this topic seriously. How is it that a like sized bullet penetrating an animal can have more stopping power than another? considering meaningful factors like momentum that relate directly to how hard a bullet strikes an animal and then transfers its energy into penetration. I have read that a tuff 458 bullet will plow right through the shoulders of buffalo and proceed downrange from most any lever rifle. If this bullet comes from a 458 Lott or a 459 45/70 how does one produce more stopping power than the other. I understand about energy figures and how they do not produce penetration as momentum does. I'm not sure that kinetic energy translates to any measurable physical quantity anyway and that momentum is the physical property that produces broken bones and penetration. Please explain in practical matters and not in lawyer terms. Respectfully, Boltaction

I have my doubts about a .458" bullet at 45/70 velocity penetrating both shoulders of a cape buff and exiting. I have had a 500gr solid at 2050fps not exit on a similar shot that went from high on the left shoulder to low on the right at complete broadside angle. The range was 20yds.

But even then, the perfect broadside shot isn't an issue, its the less than perfect broadside shot and all second shots where penetration is at a premium.

And energy equals penetration when it comes to solids. Given the same two solids and the same shot, the one with more energy or momentum, read velocity, will penetrate futrther. Or try it this way, the faster similar bullet will penetrate until it has slowed to the impact speed of the slower bullet, and then both would penetrate equal distances given equal mediums.

In my experience, a flat nose solid will out penetrate a round nose solid, so it is possible that a flat nose solid at 45/70 velocities will penetrate as well as a round nose solid at some higher velocity. But the same weight solid will travel 300 or 400fps faster out of a 458wm than a 45/70. (Some will say the 458wm can't do X velocity, but take a look at Hornaday's reloading manual, it is possible to get to 2200fps or even 2250fps with a 500 grainer - others will argue that a, say, 400gr solid out of a 45/70 comes close to the velocity of a 500gr solid out of a 458wm but then the SD and momentum numbers greatly favor the 458wm, try a light bullet like a 400 grainer in the 458wm and it is screaming in comparisson to the same bullet out of a 45/70.)

FWIW, I have found that flat nose 450gr solids out of a 458wm to provide all of the penetration one could wish for, and at the modest velocty of 2190fps, well below what the 458wm can push them.

FYI, I have agreed to try some hardened lead bullets at specified velocities on (dead) buff for some 45/70 fans who can't swing the trip to see how penetration works in the real world. Might be trying a jacketed solid as well.

JPK

What is it about this subject that stirs such deep passions on both sides of the issue? It's a cartridge, not unlike any other cartridge. It goes boom and when its bullet strikes, something dies, or not!

That said, where in the world did you get the idea that we (posters on this forum) only revere $3,000 rifles and the cartridges they fire? The most discussed and pushed rifle talked about here in recent times is the new .375 Ruger Hawkeye, which can be bought all day long for around $800. I'd venture that 80 percent of the hunters on here make their DG safaris with rifles that cost less than $1500 (Rugers, CZs and Model 70s).

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

but have been very satisfied with what I can get out of the 45-70 and handloads, from a 350gr HRNDY to 560gr cast Lyman borerider

Sorry, I miss read the post. So, what kind of chronographed velocities are you getting from your Guide Gun? I'd be interested in hearing about the 560 borerider.

The 560 is running around 1550+-fps from the GS. I have not tried to hot rod that bullet. It is seated out as far as it will reliably cycle and eject unfired right now, and the load was one developed at a buddies place up in WY and loaded using his Lee dippers and a Lyman tong tool and the load was extraplated using Lyman #38 in a very primitive cabin while visiting and helping build another cabin. I could seat the bullet out much further and gain a lot of case capacity, but the ejection port is the resriction, easily solved by some porting. If I do some work on the lifter and port the ejection port I could easily push that bullet to 1800fps. I have pushed 405gr bullets well into the 2100+fps category. I backed off because it wasn't neccessary for elk or bear, or anythin g else in NA for that matter, and I need to strengthen the stock connection and magazine tube hangar as they are known to have issues even with repeated 1895 level loads. Once the ejection port and lifter is modified for longer COL, and a mercury reducer is installed I'll start loading some serious loads using solids and possibly a heavy jacketed FMJ FP that I plan to start swaging.

Sounds good. What ranges do you shoot your elk at with the 45/70?

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Sounds good. What ranges do you shoot your elk at with the 45/70?

To date the GS has not accounted for an elk, though I have carried it a few times. That honor belongs to my trusty .300WinMag thus far. Insofar as range I have limited myself to 200yrds with the skill level I have attained with the help of a low power variable scope, but I'm hoping to extend that to 300 with more practice.

Yup, trusty old rifles every time!

The Marlin 45-70 is best with 400 or 405-grainers at just over 1800 fps just like Elmer Keith preferred his 45-70's, using 53 grains of IMR3031.
I have tried the Marlin 45-70 with 400-grainers at +2000 fps with about 52 grains of RL-7, IIRC, from my youth, and the gun soon began disassembling itself. It will loosen every screw, really. Not a "real DGR." Just stunt shooting. I would much rather use a pushfeed Mark V 460Wby with 500-grainer at a low-pressure 2500 fps than trust a Darlin-Marlin to hold together for the duration of the hunt with anything hotter than Elmer's load.

You have to push a 500-grainer to about 1900 fps or a 450-grainer to about 2000 fps to be legal by Zim Rules for cape buffalo. Most would consider that to be totally inadequate for buffalo, yet it would soon disassemble a Marlin.

RIP, my experience exactly--- which is why I brougtht up the gun malfunctioning with a case failing to extract. If its a hot load at 70F what will it be at 110F? There is little camming power on a marlin compared to a Winchester 70 crf!

I have shot Garrett ammo in 44 Mag and in 45/70.

I have found it to be excellent ammo.

Hunting Cape Buff with a 45/70 in my opinion is a stunt, as hunting one with a handgun or a bow.

Any of these can, and have, killed Cape Buff, as have lessor cartridges.

If I was to hunt Cape buff with a 45/70 I would use Garretts ammo, however I would much prefer my 9,3x74R, 450/400 or my 450 No2.

per corecpa




These are from my hunt in MZB from June 2005. I used a Marlin Guide Gun with Garrett super hard cast 540 grainers going a mere 1550 fps. We waited on a bank for over five hours before I got the shot on the Buf. He was an honest 100 yards away when I fired. The bullet hit him too far forward on the shoulder, but he was unable to use his left front leg afterwards. We walked up behind him to finish his off. One shot to his spine put him down for good along with two more heart shots while he was on the ground. Those things are tough. He was the second biggest buffalo in the herd of 44. I could never get a shot at my first choice and the herd was starting to move off so I took him. He is a little over 43"s.
The hippo cow I took at about 40 yards with a brain shot, but a 30-06 could have killed her just as well.
I left this rifle with the Limpopo Valley Horse Safaris guides in Botswana. It is carried in a scabbard while out riding and is loaded with the Garrett 500 grain solids. They have lots of elephants in the Tuli and although it wouldn't be my first choice for an elephant gun, it is much more compact on horseback than the CZ 458 Win Mags they use to carry. The goal there isn't necessarily to kill an elephant, but just make it go away.
I bought this Marlin second hand over the internet for $ 400 including delivery. It already had the WWG extended mag tube and glove sized lever.
That was a smokin hot deal and I believe there is nothing wrong with using a Marlin for Buffalo. If he is wounded I wouldn't hesitate to go after with the 45-70, although I would be happy to let my PH lead the way with a 416 Rigby or bigger. They have to do something to earn the big bucks!

A 540-grain bullet at 1550 fps has 2881 ft-lbs of KE, far below legal, where the regulation applies.

Nice stunt. It would have deserved more applause had it been done with a handgun of even lower KE like a .454 Casull, etc.

quote:

Nice stunt.

RIP: That is a PERFECT choice of words. In the last issue of African Sporting Gazette, Terry Wieland had a very good article on hunting buffalo with the 45/70 and other vintage pumkin-rollers. His thoughts echo yours. It can be done, but definitively a "stunt". Couldn't agree more. jorge

Boom stick:

Nice buff and nice hippo. Congratulations.

Namibiahunter

As i told a lot of times befores ,i regularly ,use a marlin guide gun 4570 with garrets because ,i guide mostly for buffalos ,and we travel alot in the swamps on horseback so the guide gun is a nice rifle to carry-i carry it on a tactical 3 point sling in the chest -,i never have a problem ,and the water buffalos sometimes exceed 1200kilos .Of course when i hunt walking in easier country i use me custom mauser 1909 458winchester.Juan

namibiahunter...

those pics are of another southern californian by the handle of corecpa

I think I need to start the So-Cal Safari Club
Or S.C.S.C.

It will be great to get together and tell tall tales over fine cigars and single malts.

First meeting TBA between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

I think MOZ in Agoura Hills will be a good first meeting place sice you can smoke cigars there.

http://www.mozbar.com/

Here is a photo of a water buffalo hunt with SGraves ,and my always carried marli n guide gun

The crickets got awful loud on this thread after the buff and hippo pics

CHIRP! CHIRP! CHIRP!

Boomstick
What did your Ph carry for back up?

I know I could kill just about anything that walks with a 45-70, or a modern bow, Hell give me my 308 bushmaster with some good old fasion AP. Just bexause I can, does not mean I should. If I am lucky it will turn and run the other way to die. If it does't The trackers and the PH have put their lives in harms way, just so I I might be able to say "I used a good old levergun, sharp sticks,or 308 to take my Buff." Useing a round not suited to the task does not make you a better hunter or braver, it just makes you foolish.

I have a buddy who has taken several buff with a 454 handgun. There is a story of a Ph who has taken 2 elephant with 22 longrifle,
All you got to do is slip it between the right two ribs near the arm pit ( I don't know what else to call it) My question to you is If the handgun "ok" Why is the 22- "not". If the handgun is "not ok "why would the 45-70 be oK


JD

the pics are of corecpa

RMDNDNGRUS,

IT'S ABOUT SAFETY. USE ENOUGH GUN! The best advise I have ever

heard regarding the RIGHT rifle for a person to use against dangerous game

is: Use the larget caliber that you DON'T FEAR THE RECOIL FROM,

AND that you can shoot well with at the end of the day after carrying it all day.

I can't believe that I have to add, that it MUST be compliant with

applicable laws. [but it seems that I MUST.... ] It is not about using a rifle that

you have, and love, because of it's history in your hands, or in your family,

or what ever. It's about using the RIGHT rifle for the job you want to undertake.

In that case I will answere the questions.

None of them or ok. The 22 ,hand gun, 45-70 all caused death due to bleeding out the game, not enough shock is introduce by any of the above to sicken the animals or possible stop a charge. With the handgun or 45-70 only enough shock was transfered to piss off the DG, and you made a nice loud Boom to let them know where you are.
.
Kind of like hunting with a bow, except a bow has a broad head designed to make a larger wound channel that bleeds well. With a bow you don't have a loud boom to let the DG know were the pain came from.

Shooting DG with a 45-70 is like sticking Mike Tyson in the chest with a ice pick. He most like will die with out help, but I am willing to bet you will not enjoy the remaining time you would have together.

JD

Gentlemen,

About the legality of certain cartridges for hunting dangerous game in Zimbabwe, at least.

I heard it from an individual who was amongst the people who worked out the legal limits for the approved calibers.

They picked the 375 H&H as the legal minimum because it is the smallest caliber that had factory loaded solids available.

He said they would have been very happy to make the 338 Winchester legal if at that time there were solids available for it.

Legality aside, under ideal conditions, I would have absolutely no problem hunting buffalo with a 45-70.

Under normal conditions - at least what has been normal when I have hunted buffalo - I would not even consider using any double, or any rifle that had only open sights.

A Scope sighted rifle has become almost mandatory for hunting huffalo in most conditions today.

If one prefers to use any type of rifle that has no scope, he is limiting himself to what he could shoot.

I shot 6 buffalo this year, and without a scope sighted rifle, I would not have been able to hit any except one - and that after he was already shot and running parallel to us a few yards away.

At the end of the day, hunt with whatever rifle and cartridge you feel comfortable with. Just bear in mind that your choice might limit what you can actually kill.

Attention newbie 45/70 lovers.

The solution could not be simpler.

Load your rounds to the legal minimum energy levels.
Take to Africa.
Shoot buffalo or elephant.
Then use a winch to pull the handle of your lever rifle open to eject the case that is by now probably pressure bonded to your chamber!

After the second shot, drag a magnet tied to a rope thru the bush around where you were standing to recover the pieces of your rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
Here is a photo of a water buffalo hunt with SGraves ,and my always carried marli n guide gun

This picture is missleading, IMO! The Water Buffalo was killed with what looks like a 140-2, 375 H&H Merkel in the picture, not the 45-70 GG!
That is not saying that the 45-70 couldn't do the job, legally, in Argentina!

The picture below is a fine cape buffalo, and a far tougher target than the water buffalo, above
and Illegal to take with a 45-70, in every country in Africa, that I'm aware of. Because it can be done,and has been done, doesn't make the 45-70 a Cape Buffalo cartridge.





The Hippo, above, is a fine trophy as well. However in this case the 45-70 is legal, and most Hippo are taken with 30 cal bolt rifles with brain shots in water. A big hippo on land, might have a far different outcome, with that 45-70, as would the cape buffalo above in a tight "Crap hitting the fan" sittuation!

Pritty trophy pictures, but they prove nothing, other than poor judgement, and illegal activity!

quote:

Originally posted by Irish Paul:
Attention newbie 45/70 lovers.

The solution could not be simpler.

Load your rounds to the legal minimum energy levels.
Take to Africa.
Shoot buffalo or elephant.
Then use a winch to pull the handle of your lever rifle open to eject the case that is by now probably pressure bonded to your chamber!

After the second shot, drag a magnet tied to a rope thru the bush around where you were standing to recover the pieces of your rifle!

50,000psi(45,000cup) will not bond a cartridge to a chamber, which is the psi required to reach the 4,000fpe in a 45-70. The Ruger #1 45-70 uses 55,000psi. Is the Ruger 45-70 chamber special? Is the chamber for my .300WinMag that is loaded to 60,000psi special in some way to keep it from pressure welding the cartridge to the chamber? Mic Mcpherson, WWG, Nonneman and others chamber the Marlin for cartridges that reach this pressure with good science to back them up, and Mic in particular probably knows more about the Marlin than Marlins own engineers. Is there something special about the Marlin chamber that makes cartridges stick in the chamber that only you know about?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
Here is a photo of a water buffalo hunt with SGraves ,and my always carried marli n guide gun

This picture is missleading, IMO! The Water Buffalo was killed with what looks like a 140-2, 375 H&H Merkel in the picture, not the 45-70 GG!
:

Mac, I dont see how this could be construed as misleading, since anyone who hunts knows the rifle leaning on a downed animal is the one that took it. It is obvously a photo of a guide congratulating the hunter on his kill, made with a double rifle. What is also obvious, and I believe the intended point of the photo, is the guide who knows his business and is ready to take down a wounded charging animal.....is carrying a Marlin.

quote:

Originally posted by RMDNDNGRUS:
What is also obvious, and I believe the intended point of the photo, is the guide who knows his business and is ready to take down a wounded charging animal.....is carrying a Marlin.

Not trying to diminish the potential of water buffalo to inflict harm, but that is not a cape buffalo and I am willing to bet that there is not a single PH in Africa that guides DG hunts that does so with a .45/70 levergun and there is a reason for this. Now before you attack me for being anti-45/70, I'm not. I am an avid handgun hunter so I know how ballistically challenged some cartridges can be. Because a cartridge can kill, doesn't mean that it should be used. Why do folks insist on trying to make something out of the 45/70 that it isn't? And if you are loading it long, that means you are lacking case capacity.

Again, I'm not anti 45/70, but I think it has definite limitations.

...........When I started on Accurate Reloading I kindof kicked a couple thousand guys in the nuts by telling them their man wounding 30-06 wasn,t big enough to reliably kill brown bear under conditions of duress....Boy did a bunch of people go googlieyed .,., Some people are like my wife is sometimes ... They reject the correct answer so they can argue .....As to the rifle in question here ...Most of them stop working at some point .,. Seems like mostly they won,t open ...We have LOTS of them here in Huna .,even the cops use them .. The round seems to work great on brown bear ., but I would have to say after lots of study here that the Cape Buffalo usually takes more to dump than a brown bear .....An 06 will kill a big bear if everything goes right as it seems a 45/70 will kill a Cape Buffalo ....,., If you buy my Interarms 458 Win mag from me for 475 $ and pay the 35 $ to mail it to Colorado you will have an Ideal Cape Buffalo rifle ..for the same $ .,., a guide gun isn,t genrally used by guides ..They use something bigger mostly ..