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| One of Us |
Howdy from the great state of Colorado. New member here. I see there are a number of folks here with a lot of experience in Africa and I was wondering what you know about the 45-70 and Africa. I have seen a couple articles in the past from fellows using it and was quite excited about using one of my favorite elk rifles, an 1895 stainless guide gun, if I was ever presented the chance to go to the dark continent after my military enlistment is up. Appreciate all input positive or negative. Sorry, edited to show correct model of rifle (I wrote 1896) Ugly American | ||
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Most of the more experienced dangerous game hunters here on AR use and recommend the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads for the largest and meanest of game. The preferred rifle is a NEF Handi-Rifle single shot. I've also heard that it has a growing following, especially with the Garrett Hammerheads, amongst African PHs who favor it as a STOPPER for backing up their clients. The slower velocity of the 45-70 really improves penetration on big game. I personally think that Randy Garrett should start loading them down to about 600-800 fps which should really improve penetration even further. The only thing more effective than the Garrett 540gr Hammerhead on the really big stuff is a 12 ga pump loaded with buckshot.   | |||
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OH NO! Here we go again!  ........       I'm outa here! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Welcome to the forum. You will find a lot of discussion on this subject if you do an archive search function. Every web forum has specific favorites and dislikes and you will discover that the AR forums have a real negative vibe against 45-70's on dangerous game in Africa. I took a modified stainless 1895G in .50 Alaskan for elephant this year successfully. I suggest you do the research, practice and then take what you want that is legal and ok with your PH. My PH insisted that I use the levergun instead of the 458 Lott I had brought as backup. Your mileage will vary. _______________________________  | |||
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Well I aprreciate your positive input, despite my apparently having stepped in it here. Congratulations on your elephant, thats a lot of jerky! Is your .50 a WWG job? I've looked at their rifles for some time now, especially the TD option, but have been very satisfied with what I can get out of the 45-70 and handloads, from a 350gr HRNDY to 560gr cast Lyman borerider. I would probably choose a brass solid for Africa. A fellow put a 450gr doing 2042fps from a 50 Ala through 62" of wet newsprint at a Linebaugh seminar, far out penetrating anything else at the seminar. Ugly American | |||
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No, I don't care for WWG. It was made by Regan Nonneman who is good friends with Linebaugh and goes to some of the seminars (I went to the first one in Cody). I used the same brass bullet you mentioned on the elephant and got exits on head and shoulder shots. _______________________________ | |||
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Are you using the brass solids being made by Kelly Brost from Belt Mtn? Linebaugh is good people. Ive shared lunch with him in his shop while he cut down a pistol barrel for me a couple years ago. I'm planning to swage a heavy jacketed FMJ FP for the 45-70 in the 450-500gr range. I have the press and dies, just waiting on material. Ugly American | |||
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Yes, the Punch bullet. It was the first time used on elephant and they did very well with just the slightest bit of riveting but that was after going all the way through the skull. Here is a link to my hunt report and I also have an article coming out in the next African Hunter. https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=560100986#560100986 _______________________________ | |||
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The 45/70 is not legal for elephant, anywhere. It meets calibre requirements, but not energy requirements. See the Zimbabwe requirements for example. I can't provide a link but a search will turn them up. Not legal for cape buffalo either, though I think that with a full broadside shot, and a little patience to wait for one, it will be fine. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Everyone seems to think the objection is with the LEVER ACTION RIFLE, and nothing could be farther from the truth. It is the 45-70 cartridge that is Illegal. There is a huge difference between the cartridge used by Yukon Delta, and 45-70. The 50 Alaskan useing a full load, and a proper bullet is legal, and works fine in a quality lever action rifle! If anyone thinks I hate the 45-70 cartridge, they are certainly wrong! I love the old war horse,and have three rifles chambered for that cartridge. The cartridge is a pleasure to hunt with, and for North America's game is one of the best for woods hunting I can think of. For Cape Buffalo, it is not only illegal, but just not well suited to that use! I'll say no more, as John Wayne was fond of saying, "I let other folks do what they want, as long as it doesn't hurt me, or mine!"  .........Good luck on your safari, but my advice is, buy yourself a Cape Buffalo rifle, and save the old 45-70 for moose camp!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac is it true you were a young pup when the 45-70 were first introduced????  Just kidding JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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I agree with Mac. I don't hate the 45-70 either, it's actually one of my very favorite cartridges. I do the majority of my hunting here in Georgia with a Marlin stainless Guide Gun and have killed deer and bear with it and it's great as a short range rifle for thin skinned game. However, I'm going to Zambia in Sept 2008 after Cape Buffalo and will be taking my .450 Dakota and .375 H&H. The .450 is just in a different league altogether when it comes to the level of power it generates as compared to a hot-loaded 45-70. If I'm going to be hunting something that can kill me and will try to if it gets the chance not to mention the possibility of run-ins with elephants, previously wounded buff, etc. I am just more comfortable with the biggest rifle that I can handle. Cheers, Andy | |||
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True enough. As much fun as my 50 AK was, I plan on going back to a lightweight 458 bolt gun for the next hunt. _______________________________ | |||
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It was the new issue rifle when i joined the army, back in 1878! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Hell, he was there! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Hello all, i am new here as well. i am with rmd on this one i to one day hope to go to the dark continent and plan on taking my big bore marlin. although i will never hunt elephant as i see no real reason at all in killing one, other than pure sport i would love to hunt the various plains game. I see no reason my 444 loaded hot and heavy with some good hard cast wont do the job. i just dont see spending 3 grand on a rifle just to say i have an "african gun" when my 500 dollar marlin big bore will do just fine i tihnk ill enjoy chiming in here from time to time, its a good change in pace  SSMM southern american | |||
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MM, you should get ahold of Chris Troskie. He is a PH that posts here and does an annual levergun hunt in South Africa. I know several guys who have gone on that hunt and they all had a great time and got some nice plains game with leverguns. _______________________________ | |||
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Certainly there is a difference between the 50 Ala and the 45-70, mostly of a caliber nature. If you load the 45-70 to the same specs with a comparable bullet, that is the only difference. The 50 Ala is built on the same Marlin action which is not strengthened in any way, in fwct from an engineering standpoint it is weakened since the chamber wall thickness is reduced. A little research shows the action has been proofed by Marlin to 44,000psi with the 444, and several reloading manuals use that exact reason for exceeding SAAMI in the 1895 action. In addition the cartridge itself is proofed to 55,000 psi in Ruger #1's, so the only limit is the acton strength, don't bother checking case head expansion or primers flattening. My point is, when somone says the 45-70 is illegal, which one are they talking about? Black powder levels, 1895 levels of which even those vary, or Ruger #1 levels. Since Ruger #1 levels exceed the 50 Ala, and a properly loaded 1895 level equals it, I'm confused. In additon, many have used it on DG with clean kills so why the bias, dead is dead right? Does the law in Africa actually state the 45-70 is illegal? Ugly American | |||
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I wonder about the fact that to be most effective the 444 or 45/70 will need to be pushed to the upper end of the pressure zone for the lever gun. The lever gun itself does not lend itself to great power in extraction when cases are oversize or pressures too high. Couple this with tempitures well over 95 degrees in most 'safari' areas and I see potential for a gun with a stuck case that can not be extracted. Does not sound like fun with something big and nasty that you have just irritated. I'll take a bolt gun in a more powerful cartridge please -- and I do own 2 45/70's and a 50 alaskan in lever actions by the way. | |||
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Son I killed over 100 whitetail deer with a .22LR single shot during the second world war's meat rationing, feeding four families who moved onto my grandfather's Texas hill country ranch, while their men (my Dad included) were over seas fighting a war. All were clean kills (head shots), but that didn't change the law! They will still through your butt in jail today, for useing an ILLEGAL cartridge to take whitetail deer. Addtionally, the fact that those deer are still dead today, doesn't make the 22 LR a deer cartridge, or that the law is different today! I'm not saying you won't find someone who will look the other way, and let you do this, but it is illegal. The PH who goes along with this, is going to have some explaining to do if you, or someone else in the party get hurt, or killed! Don't be confused, none of what you posted changes the laws in Africa. The laws were in regard to general lines of factory ammo,when the laws were put on the books, and they have not changed! The laws are not in reference to HANDLOADS! Anyone can load anything so it blows the primers, but that has nothing to do with the law. What confuses me is, why everyone wants to try to make the old Indian killer, something it is't! Certainly it will kill a Cape Buffalo,if everything is right, but the laws were put on the books for safety reasons. The rules are there when everything goes wrong,and in that case, the 45-70 shooter is going to be in deep do do! Why not simply use a legal rifle/cartridge combination, and be done with it! My advice to you is, if you want folks to agree with your take on the 45-70 for Cape buffalo, then the thing to do is, post on a Garrette forum! You will have beleavers, who have never even seen a wild Cape Buffalo up close, swooning with positive "lock step with with you" responces. Why is t, do you think, everytime someone comes on the African hunting forums, spouting the 45-70's magic, it causes 300 or 400 negative posts. I suspect its beacuse the poeple on the African hunting forums have been there, and the ones from the 45-70 forums haven't, plain and simple! You will never get a consensus for the 45-70's use on Cape Buffalo, on a forum where Cape Buffalo hunters post, and have seen them take nine or ten 470NE class rounds, and keep coming back for more! One thing you need to remember is a passage from one of Capstick's books! "When a cape buffalo puts together a concentrated charge, your options have been wonderfully simplified! You kill him or he will kill you!" PHC, .....Or RUARK's "USE ENOUGH GUN!" As old Tom Horn was fond of saying, "That is my last word on this!" .............BYE  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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It may be the upper end of the pressure zone for the rifle, but not the cartridge, so sticky extraction should never be a problem. And with the massive rim I dont see how it could ever be a problem. Ugly American | |||
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Hello Gentlemen-Are there actual documented cases of the Marlin 45/70 1895's blowing up from high pressure loads used in Africa? Is it the rifle blowing up or the ammo not up to the task hunting this dangerous game. Or is there some other mechanical problem with these rifles? I have never really found verified evidence of this one going irritating discussion. Some definitive information needs to be presented and I believe a stop or at least a huge slow down on this hot topic would cease. Respectfully, Boltaction | |||
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The law in Zimbabwe says it illegal. The law gives minimum calibres for different game. At .458", the 45/70 makes this grade for all dangerous game. But the law also gives minimum energy levels for the different game and here the 45/70 fails to make the grade for buff or elephant. I believe that all of the other countries that offer free range dangerous game hunting have similar laws which also make the 45/70 illegal. And as Mac mentioned, the law in practice takes into account only factory loaded ammo. But hey, you don't need $3k to find and purchase a legal and suitable DG rifle either. The same $'s you've got in your Marlin should do it. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Lawrence, the law has nothing to do with the rifle's ability to withstand pressures! It is in regard to it's stopping power when the crap hits the fan, on a Cape Buffalo, or an elephant! The officials in Africa couldn't care less if your rifle blows up or not! The point is, everyone is confusing the rifle, being the problem, when it is actually the cartridge, that doesn't make the grade! I hunt Cape Buffalo, and I also own three rifles chambered for 45-70, a S/S double rifle, a Ruger No1, and an 1895 Marlin that has been cut bact to 16" barrel makeing it a trapper, to carry on my shoulder wile fishing in Alaska, and for that purpose, they are all legal, but on cape Buffalo they are not! Hell, the 375 H&H with a 300 gr bullet traveling at 2550 fps is considered litel for Buffalo, and ele, and it is the legal minimum, and it developes more FPE that the 45-70! If the diameter of the bullet was the only criteria, then the 45 Long colt would be legal, for Cape buffalo!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Well, I can appreciate your experiences, and your last word. However I am curious at a couple comments made, and the lack of attention to my comments, but instead making rather spurious comparisons of the 45-70 to a .22 RF were made. So if a charging mad buff can take multiple 470NE rounds, how is that NE doing any better than anything else? Also, you will never blow primers at Ruger #1 pressures that are 10,000psi over max for the 1895 action. I am also a little stunned at the suggestion to bug off this forum. I asked here because I was interested in the opinion of hunters who had been to Africa, and possibly used one. A line of comments was made that were favorable to the 50 ALa and unfavorable to the 45-70, wherein I made rebuttals. Those rebuttals have been met derogotory comments. I would be very interested in logical reasononings, but none are seen in this post. Again I ask, is the 45-70 cartridge actually illegal in Africa, and why? Ugly American | |||
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Yes, the 45/70 is illegal to use for free ranging cape buffalo or elephant. It is illegal because its factory loads do not meet the minimum energy requirements for cape buffalo or elephant. If you come here to seek the opinion of experienced hunters, but then you feel the need to rebutt their opinions, why ask in the first place? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Hello-If the Marlin is up to the job but illegal to use why are the other illegal practices used by reputable hunters continued? Please understand, I am searching for the "real" reason this capable Marlin rifle is frowned on by many folks posting here. No fight please just right. My first thought is that $500 rifles don't fit the tight knit alliance of Riflemen that enjoy a long tradition of what's acceptable and what's not. And that's fine by me as far as that goes. I belong to some of those myself. Thanks, Boltlever | |||
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What other illegal practices? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Jesus Christ, how many times do you have to be told IT IS ILLEGAL FOR CAPE BUFFALO! I didn't suggest you leave this forum! That sugestion was IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO AGREE WITH YOU,you should go where people wiil agree with you. It is clear that you take exception with the fact that folks here dont agree with your opinion of the 45-70. You say you cme here to get our opinion, and you got it! It is plain, it wasn't what you wanted to hear, so the above sugestion, still holds if you must have agreement! I said nothing derogatory to you or anyone else here, I defy you to post a quote of mine that is of a derogatory nature, unless you consider my disagreeing with you to be derogatory. If that is the case then I plead guilty! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Every country has its laws...not one common set for all 53 | |||
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Well I can accept the reasoning of factory loads not making the grade for the most part, although that would depend on whose factory loads we are talking about. However, I hope I am mistaken in assuming that just because an opinion is postulated I am not allowed to raise reasonably and politely asked questions in regard to that opinion, or offer another viewpoint with a request to examine it? Ugly American | |||
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Are you suggesting you weren't talking down to me when you called me "son"? Ugly American | |||
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Mac is entitled to call anybody here "Son" except Ray A. Those two must call each other "Brother." It is an age thing. What is the minimum legal energy requirement for DG such as buffalo and elephant as defined by the regulation in Zimbabwe? | |||
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okay, to put this in perspective. the 45/70 has been cussed and discussed up, down, left, right, and twiceo n sunday here on AR... do a search in this or the big bore forum. Can a 45/70 kill a cape buffalo under more or less perfect conditions, with special loads? Without a doubt, in perfect conditions, it can do the job. Since perfect generally doesn't happen, its a poor choice, IMNSHO, to point at an animal hell bent on killing YOU .... if it's the most you can shoot, great... but if you load the @#$@#$@#$ thing up to 458 winmag levels, are you shooting a 45/70 or a winmag? oh, yeah, on Ray and Mac... ray was standing around, waiting for his brother to show up, ... ray holding a 505 gibbs and Mac a 450/400 ... and together they decided to invent DIRT!! jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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MacD37, please don't waste your time. It is not possible to explain colours to the born blind people. It is not possible to make the people understand if they DO NOT want to understand. I read all the topic. It made me remember a book title by J.Fleming "Live and let die" and the refrain of a Bob's Dylan song "The answer of my friend (MacD37) is blowing in the wind" and I could continue. Even if I did not and I will not hunt Cape Buffalo, I know that is hard to knock down. And having hunted although only plains game I took, I take and I'll take very seriously in consideration the USE ENOUGH GUN! suggestion. An Italian hunter hitted a Dagga Boy in the hearth perfectly (as it has been stated at the end). And it runned away. They spent some hour in looking for it everywhere. It has been discovered under a bush by another Italian hunter, that saw a little movement at nothing less than 800 meters from the kopie from where they were spotting. When they arrived near the bush where the buffalo were they discovered that deadly wounded was still alive. I've decided to close here my answer, cancelling two Latin summons, too rough and strong for the forum. bye Stefano Waidmannsheil | |||
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RMDNDNGRUS, Please feel free to go to Africa with the rifle and cartridges you named. No one here wants to stop you. It's your time and your money; spend it however you wish. George  | |||
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Well I'm certainly willing to accept his "son" refence as a fatherly taking me under his wing admonishment, if thats how it was intended. Hopefully someone can answer your above question as that would help sort things out a little. Ugly American | |||
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for buff and elephant is is 4000ft-lbs, more or less opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I like the looks of that 550 Express in your link. BIIG bore. Ugly American | |||
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