Friends i have many rifles ,even a custom short Mauser1909 458 winchester ,for working with buffalos ,water buffalos and in this oportunity i carried the guide gun because we have 6 hours from horseback and we have to shoot at very short distance ,i killed many many buffalos with it and stopped several charges so i was totally sure of my tool ,in this specific case we have had a charge after the 2 shots of the 374hyh i shot my garret and then Steven put another 2 shots on it .J

Not to pontificate further on the obvious, but water buffalo are much different from cape buffalo; water buffalo are domesticated in parts of asia, and dont have to fight off lions, for chrissakes! Brown bear too, seem to be different from the bullet proof Syncerus caffer, possibly because they are not subject to predation
Its not just the size of the animal, its his temperament! I would not use the 45-70 because I think it lacks penetration, and there are better calibers available.
Now, its clearly a great carry gun, no question about that

The 45-70 is a neat little cartridge and the Marlin is a neat little rifle but I wouldn’t take either after buffalo…

Just because a 45-70 can kill buffalo it still isn’t a Lott or a Win Mag….

Just because the Marlin is a well made rifle it still isn’t as stout as any bolt action…

Hunts are expensive (well made bolt action rifles are not) and assuming one would like to “kill his own snakes†why place limits your self when so many better choices are available?

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
...........When I started on Accurate Reloading I kindof kicked a couple thousand guys in the nuts by telling them their man wounding 30-06 wasn,t big enough to reliably kill brown bear under conditions of duress....Boy did a bunch of people go googlieyed .,., Some people are like my wife is sometimes ... They reject the correct answer so they can argue .....As to the rifle in question here ...Most of them stop working at some point .,. Seems like mostly they won,t open ...We have LOTS of them here in Huna .,even the cops use them .. The round seems to work great on brown bear ., but I would have to say after lots of study here that the Cape Buffalo usually takes more to dump than a brown bear .....An 06 will kill a big bear if everything goes right as it seems a 45/70 will kill a Cape Buffalo ....,., If you buy my Interarms 458 Win mag from me for 475 $ and pay the 35 $ to mail it to Colorado you will have an Ideal Cape Buffalo rifle ..for the same $ .,., a guide gun isn,t genrally used by guides ..They use something bigger mostly ..

Ed stevenson of Alaska guides with a 45-70 Browning lever action 20" barrel

http://www.z-hat.com/Stevenson.htm

MacD37,

Thanks for telling me I'm pritty. I am sure you are a fine looking man yourself.
When I showed up in Mozambique to hunt buffalo with my 45-70 nobody there told me I was doing anything illegal. We just went out and killed a fine Cape Buffalo. Both PH's in camp lusted after my Marlin and wished they could have one. It was an especially cool model with the extended magazine holding six very potent Garret cartridges and a John Wayne lever. I was hoping to get a charge so I could shoot from the hip just like Chuck Connors in the old Rifleman series.
The buffalo and hippo didn't appear to think that I had poor judgement.




You can borrow money, but you can't borrow time. Go now.

If I had $10 for every guy who gets on here and pontificates about the .45-70 on Thick skinned DG I'd have a pretty good chunk of money by now.

If I had $1000.00 for everybody who has ACTUALLY used one in Africa on DG I'd be in the poor house.

If you have a .45-70 and you want to hunt African DG with it you have my blessing and my best wishes. NOBODY on this or any other internet site is going to physically stop you from hunting with your Marlin in Africa.

You do not however need obtain permission or reassurance by this or any other group of people. So grab your Marlins and go hunting. Take lots of pictures and have fun!

The .45-70 in a lever gun does not make the legal minimum FPE requirement for most if not all African countries for thick skinned DG hunting.

Most if not all game scouts and PH's don't really seem to give a damn. So Git "er" done and send pictures. Talking about it on the net ain't going to put any trophies on your wall.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
If I had $1000.00 for everybody who has ACTUALLY used one in Africa on DG I'd be in the poor house.
.

Wow, you must be rich, cause I can think of at least four I knew of before I came here, and I think there's a couple more on here who said they did also.

Sorry for making you click on this thread and listen to me talk about going to Africa.

If you want to risk your very life hunting Cape buffalo with a 45/70, then go ahead. If you screw your first shot up and your PH doesn't have a clear shot to pull your ashes out of the fire, or misses, then you will be very likely stone dead, not to mention maybe the tracker(s) and/or the game scout. Being gored to death is one hell of a price to pay for proving a point, IMHO. Getting some innocent killed for the same reason is inexcusable.

quote:

Originally posted by RMDNDNGRUS:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
If I had $1000.00 for everybody who has ACTUALLY used one in Africa on DG I'd be in the poor house.
.

Wow, you must be rich, cause I can think of at least four I knew of before I came here, and I think there's a couple more on here who said they did also.

Sorry for making you click on this thread and listen to me talk about going to Africa.

I believe you just proved MRLEXMA's point.

Correction, I meant to type Surestike's point.

JPK

There was an excellent, excellent article by Terry Wieland in the latest issue of the African Sporting Gazette on this very topic.

Terry writes a good piece on how it's perfectly fine if someone wants to hunt buff with a 45/70 or some of the old British BP Pumkin rollers, but he goes to great length to describe the event as a combination of nostalgia and basically a STUNT.

He had a few run ins with buff and in the end he decided against it. Can't say I blame him. jorge

Jorge,
Actually, this would fit in very well with Darwin's Theory of Survival of the Fittest.

quote:

Originally posted by RMDNDNGRUS:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
If I had $1000.00 for everybody who has ACTUALLY used one in Africa on DG I'd be in the poor house.
.

Wow, you must be rich, cause I can think of at least four I knew of before I came here, and I think there's a couple more on here who said they did also.

Sorry for making you click on this thread and listen to me talk about going to Africa.

Ok I now see that you are not here for the conversation. You are here for one purpose and one purpose only.

quote:

Originally posted by RMDNDNGRUS:
Howdy from the great state of Colorado. New member here.

I see there are a number of folks here with a lot of experience in Africa and I was wondering what you know about the 45-70 and Africa. I have seen a couple articles in the past from fellows using it and was quite excited about using one of my favorite elk rifles, an 1895 stainless guide gun, if I was ever presented the chance to go to the dark continent after my military enlistment is up.

Appreciate all input positive or negative.

Sorry, edited to show correct model of rifle (I wrote 1896)

Here is the problem with this type of post! It seems the BOLD portion of your origenal post is is a little disingenous, because it is evident, you don't appreciate, any comment that doesn't agree with your preconvieved notion of the value of the 45-70's use on large dangerous game, or the fact that it is simply illegal, for that use!

This a little like asking "How do you make bisquits?"when you don't know, and then getting angry when you find it isn't the way you thought! "You can't handle the truth!"


.................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by RMDNDNGRUS:
Howdy from the great state of Colorado. New member here.

I see there are a number of folks here with a lot of experience in Africa and I was wondering what you know about the 45-70 and Africa. I have seen a couple articles in the past from fellows using it and was quite excited about using one of my favorite elk rifles, an 1895 stainless guide gun, if I was ever presented the chance to go to the dark continent after my military enlistment is up.

Appreciate all input positive or negative.

Sorry, edited to show correct model of rifle (I wrote 1896)

Here is the problem with this type of post! It seems the BOLD portion of your origenal post is is a little disingenous, because it is evident, you don't appreciate, any comment that doesn't agree with your preconvieved notion of the value of the 45-70's use on large dangerous game, or the fact that it is simply illegal, for that use!

This a little like asking "How do you make bisquits?"when you don't know, and then getting angry when you find it isn't the way you thought! "You can't handle the truth!"


.................

MacD, with all due respect sir, and I mean that, I was taught to respect my elders, if you notice in the portion of my original thread, what I asked for was input from those who KNOW about the 45-70 and Africa.

What I have received is opinion and conjecture, much of based everything ranging from complete ignorance of the cartridge to prejudice and bias to statements that the 45-70 is illegal.

The only factual statement from the naysayers were that SAAMI loads for the cartridge did not make the legal minimum ft lb requirement, which I provided factual information showing it can in fact be loaded to the minimum reqiured levels at safe pressures.

I find it interesting that subjective vagueries posted by me are examined so closely, yet such glaring exhibitions of total ignorance such as someone suggesting 50,000psi loads would pressure weld a case to the chamber were completely ignored.

In addition Mac, your biscuit analogy mischaracterises my original post. A more correct analogy would be if I asked who has made biscuits. What I got were responces from people who never made biscuits, but told me I shouldn't because biscuits weren't acceptable food, only croissants will do.

I think Terry Wieland is very well qualified indeed to proffer a recommendation regarding the 45/70 and other obsolete cartridges when it comes to DG hunting. His word "stunt" fits perfectly...jorge

You got what you asked for: FACTS about the 45-70 and africa.

fact: it is legal and fine for plainsgame within it's ballistic limitations.
fact: it is illegal for Dangerous game.
fact: under proper circumstances it can kill thick skinned dangerous game.
fact: under less than ideal conditions it is a very poor choice for thick skinned dangerous game.
fact: there are PHs who will ignore the law and allow you to use one on thick skinned dangerous game.

What more do you want?
If you want to use it on dangerous game find a PH who will let you, go to Africa and have at it.
You aren't going to convince those who disagree with you and they aren't going to convince you. Why don't you contact the appropriate authorities in the African country of your choice and try to convince them that the 45-70 should be legal.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I think Terry Wieland is very well qualified indeed to proffer a recommendation regarding the 45/70 and other obsolete cartridges when it comes to DG hunting. His word "stunt" fits perfectly...jorge

First one has to accept your assertion of obsolete. Since a number of manufacturers are still chambering this cartridge, and in fact for one major US manufcturer it is their flagship, to say it is subjective is being polite. If using clasic cartridges loaded to meet the minmum requirements is a stunt, then wouldn't that encompass such treasured standby's as the .375 H&H?

quote:

Originally posted by RMDNDNGRUS:

quote:

Originally posted by Irish Paul:
Attention newbie 45/70 lovers.

The solution could not be simpler.

Load your rounds to the legal minimum energy levels.
Take to Africa.
Shoot buffalo or elephant.
Then use a winch to pull the handle of your lever rifle open to eject the case that is by now probably pressure bonded to your chamber!

After the second shot, drag a magnet tied to a rope thru the bush around where you were standing to recover the pieces of your rifle!

50,000psi(45,000cup) will not bond a cartridge to a chamber, which is the psi required to reach the 4,000fpe in a 45-70. The Ruger #1 45-70 uses 55,000psi. Is the Ruger 45-70 chamber special? Is the chamber for my .300WinMag that is loaded to 60,000psi special in some way to keep it from pressure welding the cartridge to the chamber? Mic Mcpherson, WWG, Nonneman and others chamber the Marlin for cartridges that reach this pressure with good science to back them up, and Mic in particular probably knows more about the Marlin than Marlins own engineers. Is there something special about the Marlin chamber that makes cartridges stick in the chamber that only you know about?

Hey jerky, the smiley icon denotes a level of humor in the post.

Go bring your fucking rifle to Africa, shoot some dangerous game, and come back an tell us about it.
After you do that then we'll pay attention to your bullshit post.

As to Garett cartridges, the only batch I ever shot expanded so much in my lever action that it was impossible to cycle the action while keeping the rifle shouldered.

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
fact: it is illegal for Dangerous game.

Not fact.

Cartridges that are loaded less than the 4000fpe are illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by Irish Paul:
As to Garett cartridges, the only batch I ever shot expanded so much in my lever action that it was impossible to cycle the action while keeping the rifle shouldered.

Since Garrett's are only loaded to 35,000cup I'd say you have a mechanical problem. Or a weak arm. I've never heard that from any of the dozens of people I know who have used Garrets.

As to your smiley denoting humor, we have a saying in the Army. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

quote:

If using clasic cartridges loaded to meet the minmum requirements is a stunt, then wouldn't that encompass such treasured standby's as the .375 H&H?

No...
BTW, "major' ammo manufacturers also load the 38-55, 44-40 and a host of other OBSOLETE cartridges so what's your point? No need to answer. Here's another clue for you; how many Professional Hunters use the 45/70 as their personal firearm? Answer: NONE. Fact is no matter we can lead you to logic but... I'll be polite as well. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

If using clasic cartridges loaded to meet the minmum requirements is a stunt, then wouldn't that encompass such treasured standby's as the .375 H&H?

No...
BTW, "major' ammo manufacturers also load the 38-55, 44-40 and a host of other OBSOLETE cartridges so what's your point? No need to answer. Here's another clue for you; how many Professional Hunters use the 45/70 as their personal firearm? Answer: NONE. Fact is no matter we can lead you to logic but... I'll be polite as well. jorge

I appreciate polite discourse, even though the participants may and usually do disagree.

You are right, those old cartridges are being loaded, but they are more of a novelty to feed the cowboy action crowd.

The manufacture of those rifles and pistols chambered for those cartridges, and the manufacture of those cartridges is nowhere near the scale or popularity of the 45-70, nor are they being chambered in any modern firearm I'm aware of, but rather replicas of the originals, the Marlin is in fact a modern firearm according to a number of reloading manuals, as is the Ruger #1.

Nor does the use of those even come close to the use of the 45-70 for hunting. The 45-70 is easily one the most popular hunting rounds in NA as seen in a number of polls over the last few years. Those others you mentioned are merely a sideshow in comparison.

I dont know any PH's, so I cannot respond to that with any knowledge. I do beleive one gentleman mentioned he left his 45-70 with a PH when he left, maybe it was only the tracker, and that his PH insisted he use his 45-70 for the hunt.

Ugly American

At this point there is no point in beating the dead horse. Contact the relevant authorities in the African country of your choice and discuss the subject with them. If you convince them that the 45-70 is legal, take it and shoot your buffalo or elephant or whatever. It's your life, your hunt, your choice. In May I'll be hunting buffalo with my choice, go hunt one with yours.

TerryR

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
Ugly American

At this point there is no point in beating the dead horse.

Terry, your certainly entitled to your opinion of the discusion here, but I'm finding it educational, and I hope some others are also, so if you dont mind I'll continue my thread. I believe the Moderator on this forum was listed as Saeed?

quote:

Originally posted by RMDNDNGRUS:

MacD, with all due respect sir, and I mean that, I was taught to respect my elders, if you notice in the portion of my original thread, what I asked for was input from those who KNOW about the 45-70 and Africa.

What I have received is opinion and conjecture, much of based everything ranging from complete ignorance of the cartridge to prejudice and bias to statements that the 45-70 is illegal.

The only factual statement from the naysayers were that SAAMI loads for the cartridge did not make the legal minimum ft lb requirement, which I provided factual information showing it can in fact be loaded to the minimum reqiured levels at safe pressures.

I find it interesting that subjective vagueries posted by me are examined so closely, yet such glaring exhibitions of total ignorance such as someone suggesting 50,000psi loads would pressure weld a case to the chamber were completely ignored.

In addition Mac, your biscuit analogy mischaracterises my original post. A more correct analogy would be if I asked who has made biscuits. What I got were responces from people who never made biscuits, but told me I shouldn't because biscuits weren't acceptable food, only croissants will do.

RMDNDNGRUS, you certainly did ask for those who know about the 45-70 in Africa, and I differe with your opinion that the only factual answers you got were in relation to chamber pressures! Once you know the 45-70 cartridge is ILLEGAL FOR USE ON CAPE BUFFALO, no further discussion of it's use for that purpose is necessary.

The chamber pressure for you rifle has absolutely nothing to do with this cartridge's viability on Cape Buffalo, or the law.

The laws in Africa are not made to keep you from blowing your nose off with a burst rifle, but for the most humane use on the game animals, and to keep the members of a safari as safe as is posible.

Because it has been done, and I'm sure someomne else will do it again, makes absolutely no difference to the law folks, and if it is illegal, then to do so knowing that, makes you a poacher, plain and simple! If you get someone killed in the process, answers given you here will suddenly become retro-active good advice.

One final time! The 45-70 cartridge is not LEGAL for cape Buffalo, in Africa, and it is not well suited for that use even if it were legal. However because it is not LEGAL, case closed.

I've shot lots of Cape Buffalo, and I've shot lots of game with a 45-70, and I know the cartridge is illegal for cape buffalo in Africa,for a reason, I might add, and that it is not a good choice even if it were! .......END OF DISCUSSION!

Don't ask questions you can't accept the answers to!...........BYE

Well, Mac, if that doesn't convince him, nothing will. Looks like the guy is dead set on going buff hunting with a 45/70. I wouldn't and I won't and I'm tired of the endless bantering from this guy, so I'm going elsewhere on AR to read something else.

Don't forget the Model A was a hell of an automobile at one time.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I differe with your opinion that the only factual answers you got were in relation to chamber pressures!

Actually that was not opinion. The rules are governed by FPE, and 45-70 cartridges loaded to SAAMI pressures do not make it. However cartridges loaded to make the minimum fpe would be legal. So then your argument is the minmum is not enough. Ok.

quote:

Once you know the 45-70 cartridge is ILLEGAL FOR USE ON CAPE BUFFALO, no further discussion of it's use for that purpose is necessary.

Sure. Except I dont know that. What I know is anything less than 4000fpe is illegal.

quote:

The chamber pressure for you rifle has absolutely nothing to do with this cartridge's viability on Cape Buffalo, or the law.

Indirectly it does.

quote:

The laws in Africa are not made to keep you from blowing your nose off with a burst rifle, but for the most humane use on the game animals, and to keep the members of a safari as safe as is posible.

Which would seem to be the reason the established a minumum 4000fpe as meeting that criteria.

quote:

Because it has been done, and I'm sure someomne else will do it again, makes absolutely no difference to the law folks, and if it is illegal, then to do so knowing that, makes you a poacher, plain and simple! If you get someone killed in the process, answers given you here will suddenly become retro-active good advice.

A lot of what-ifs based on a false premise.

quote:

One final time! The 45-70 cartridge is not LEGAL for cape Buffalo

And respectfully, one more time, the only thing established thats illegal is loads under 4000fpe.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Don't forget the Model A was a hell of an automobile at one time.

Jeff

And would probably kill buffalo pretty reliably as long as you could get up enough speed before you rammed them....

WHY ARE WE ALL WASTING OUR TIME ON THIS?

You wonder when a first time poster, with all their posts on this one thread, posts such a topic when anyone with any sense can see it would start a uproar just as it has.

You gotta wonder of one of the infamous ".45/70ers" from years past has risen again?






Les

Personally, I consider it a challenge. Kinda like trying to teach John Hinckley that he can't have Jodie Foster or better yet, trying to tell Rosie that no matter how much makeup she wears, she's still a butt ugly turd. jorge

I was about to put down for a nap but after reading all the commotion stirred up by this thread on Garrett's ammo and the .45-70 and RMDNDNGRUS I couldn't sleep. He asked what I think is a valid question, not suspecting that he might be subjected to vehemence and ridicule. He asked his question in good faith, thinking that the sages of this forum would recognize his naivete and credit him for his enthusiasm for the African experience that some here have been fortunate enough to have lived. RMDNDNGRUS' responses have always been intelligently based on what he believes is correct. He has been polite and respectful - a credit to his training in the uniformed service to his country.

I'm not championing the cause of the .45-70 or Garrett or stunting of any such thing. I think I have a couple of guns in adequate calibers (.375 H&H and .416 Taylor) that I would rather use on DG before I would use my guide gun. That being said, I do admire the achievement of hunters who were successful in taking DG with the .45-70. I, myself, would not have tried it, legal or not.

Speaking of legality and adequacy - I think more DG in Africa have been killed by the illegal 7.62x39 and 7x57 cartridges than by the inadequate .45-70.

Anyway, RMDNDNGRUS, when your enlistment is up, I hope that you will make your way to the plains of Africa and experience for yourself what many of us cannot ever get out of our blood.

Now, I'm going to take a nap.

Namibiahunter

Just another Troll!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Just another Troll!

Gee Rusty, I thought we were striking up a freindship back when you began asking about the Lyman 560 I load. What gives?

quote:

The 45-70 is easily one the most popular hunting rounds in NA as seen in a number of polls over the last few years.

Oh, statements like the above.

Give us a shout when you and your 45/70 get back from Africa. Or send us some pictures when you kill somthing with those Garret Cartridges.

O&O

I think that this guy may have already done some buff hunting in Africa. Possibly oh say....out of season in Botswana perhaps?

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
I think that this guy may have already done some buff hunting in Africa. Possibly oh say....out of season in Botswana perhaps?

Sorry man, never been to Africa. May get close soon, but I'll probably be a little busy to skip over there and hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

The 45-70 is easily one the most popular hunting rounds in NA as seen in a number of polls over the last few years.

Oh, statements like the above.

Give us a shout when you and your 45/70 get back from Africa. Or send us some pictures when you kill somthing with those Garret Cartridges.

O&O

I personally dont use Garretts Rusty. I put that in my title because I had been reading about Vince Lupos safaris over at Garretts site. There are some good articles over there. I am a handloader, so I can get the same performance and better as Mr Garrett, but for those who dont and have the money I think he makes a fine product.

I finally went through the links posted on the second page. Wow, looks like theres been some heat over the 45-70 here. Came across this from Saeed that seemed very common sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
My point is it IS done very often by many people, and it obviously works for them and their PH.<br /><br />Whether it is legal or not is beside the point.<br /><br />As far as I am concerned, if some feels like hunting an elephant or a buffalo with a 45-70, good luck to him.<br /><br />Bloody hell, we argue endlessly about a 375 not being good enough for these animals.<br /><br />And while we are on the subject of legality, how many stupid laws do you think each of us breaks every day? While we are carrying on our normal lives?<br /><br />I bet not many of us pass a single day without breaking at least one law or another.<br /><br />When something is illegal, it does NOT make it automatically wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gumboot458:
...........When I started on Accurate Reloading I kindof kicked a couple thousand guys in the nuts by telling them their man wounding 30-06 wasn,t big enough to reliably kill brown bear [[under conditions of duress....Boy did a bunch of people go googlieyed .,., Some people are like my wife is sometimes ... They reject the correct answer so they can argue .....As to the rifle in question here ...Most of them stop working at some point .,. Seems like mostly they won,t open ...We have LOTS of them here in Huna .,even the cops use them .. The round seems to work great on brown bear ., but I would have to say after lots of study here that the Cape Buffalo usually takes more to dump than a brown bear .....An 06 will kill a big bear if everything goes right as it seems a 45/70 will kill a Cape Buffalo ....,., 458 Win Mag. an Ideal Cape Buffalo rifle ..for the same $ .,., a guide gun isn,t genrally used by guides ..They use something bigger mostly ..

[[[Ed stevenson of Alaska guides with a 45-70 Browning lever action 20" barrel]]]
Yes , But you should hear what his son Bill Stevenson ,who has his own outfit has to say about those lever guns ,., Bill uses a 375 H&H.I think .. I know as I was talking with him @ Eureka Lodge about his dad,s 411 hawk and 45/70,s