I was never involved in all the hoopla over these threads regarding the magic of the 45/70. I just don't take that stuff too serious.

However recently I have had a guy tell me that the 45/70 is close enough to the 458 Lott that they work about the same. He then went on to say that it is actually more powerful with handloads then a 416 Rigby shooting 400 grain bullets.

His buddy says that in his Siamese mauser he can easily equal the 416 rigby and it's more powerful then the 458 Win Mag. He claims 2100 fps with a 500 grain bullet.

My question is this, how does a shell that holds only 55 grains or so of powder do all this? The rigby is over 100 grains and the win mag is stuffed to the gills to get 2100fps?

Am I missing something here?

JJ,

Fearing to stick my toe into the deep end of the cesspool of the 45-70 debate, I'd suggest that you politely ask him to prove it.

If it's possible, meet him at a shooting range with a chronograph. That would settel the issues he brings up.

Frankly I think that it's a near physical impossibilty to get the velocites even close to a Lott or 416 with the same bullet weight.

But then again I'm an idiot, as I'm apt to prove repeatedly. But I'd love to see the 'tale of the tape'.

-Steve

JJ,

These guys live in a fanytasy world where physics and science do not exsist.

This a classic case of a chihuahua owner loudly proclaiming that his dog is bigger than your dog.

Here is the final score on this issue..

quote:

Originally posted by JJHACK:
........
However recently I have had a guy tell me that the 45/70 is close enough to the 458 Lott that they work about the same. He then went on to say that it is actually more powerful with handloads then a 416 Rigby shooting 400 grain bullets.

His buddy says that in his Siamese mauser he can easily equal the 416 rigby and it's more powerful then the 458 Win Mag. He claims 2100 fps with a 500 grain bullet.
...........

Anything is possible in the world of "bubba ballistics". You know: don't ever read any books that might "learn ya sump-thin" and only listen to and believe the "wisdom and knowledge" of your other bubba buddies.

-Bob F.

jj,

If you do go to the range to chrono his loads, I suggest you stand about 100 feet away for the shooting.
I like the four-five-seven-o, but not that much.

Roger QSL

I suppose one could load up a 45/70 case with some fast powder and jack the operating pressures up to 90,000-110,000 PSI and that might push a 500 grain bullet that fast. I don't know. I'm not one to tempt fate. In any event, I would not go shooting with this guy. If what he's saying is true, I wouldn't want to be nearby when that rifle of his grenades and takes his upper torso off.

If he's your buddy, don't ask for proof - it might kill him finding out. Tactfully and politely, show him some load books and try to explain how to properly load his cartridges. If he's smart, he'll listen. If not, he may remove himself from the gene pool...

Tex

Human nature is something else. There's always somebody about with a questionable rifle/cartridge combo who claims that his package is "just as good" as something that is better mechanically and fires a more potent cartridge.

Same with binoculars. In elk camp one year we had a guy with a set of low-end, off-beat binoculars, and this guy got into a semi-argument with another fellow armed with a set of 10X40 Zeiss Classics. The guy with the off-beat set claimed that those Zeiss were "no better" than his, they were "just fancier". At that, we all lined up for a side-by-side comparison, and as you might guess the Zeiss won hands-down -- by a long country mile.

Nevertheless, the off-beat guy wouldn't conceed the difference!

AD

You have to have faith, you have to believe !!! I heard that in testing the Miroku made Browning they went well over 100,000 psi without blowing it up ,but stopped when they melted the brass. At those pressures the 45-70 would probably match the 458 Lott, but not with MY 1885 !!!

He is getting his bullets mixed up. Tell him what he means is that he might get 2100 fps with a 45-70 with a FOUR HUNDRED grain bullet.

Some times you just gotta smile and let others have their misconceptions. It can be fruitless to attempt to disabuse them ... and maybe a bit cruel too.

Just smile and move on.

Back in my 45-70 days (I was a fan, not a fanatic), I had one of the Browning 1886 reproductions with a 26" barrel. Using pure linotype bullets weighing 400 grains, the best I could get was about 1800 fps measured over a Pact chronograph. This was with all the 3031 I could stuff under it.

On average, a lead bullet will get about 200 fps more than a jacketed bullet using the same load. I think your friend is a bit off the mark to say the least.

not anxious to jump in this discussion but will state that 2200 fps with a 400 gr bullet using 3031 in a 45-70 is possible with a MODERN 1895GG.
I have read somewhere where that load reaches some factory loading for the 416.
will it ever be a subsitute for the 416 ...no will it kill DG...yes the same as the 30-06 and the 308 and the bow and arrow does.

What is it about the 45/70 that the laws of physics cease and intelligence evaporates???

Velocity with max loads and 500 gr bullets using the hornady manual is 1800fps and that is with a ruger #1 and only with 2 different powders.
I dont want to be anywhere around when he torches one of those off at 2100fps or so he says.

Just my opine here.

God bless the venerable 45/70! It's managed to survive it's black powder heritage. However it just can't over come it's straight walled old case. It does generate a good bit of recoil. Too much for what it does!

Even after, you get that .458 bullet out of the barrel you have got to keep enough velocity to overcome the poor penetration that is typical of short fat .458 bullets. Now to do that you'd better have the muzzle of that 45/70 real close to whatever you are going to shoot. Be careful not to leave powder burns on the hide!

The .416 is a good long bullet that penetrates well! The .416 is hands down winner every time!

As far as wild claims about the 45/70. . . .Well, I'm still waiting to see all those field trophy pictures of happy clients and their 45/70s.

I have been kind-of behind the scenes looking up some data on this to figure out for myself what is really possable with the 45/70. I'll also mention that Randy Garrett is a friend of mine whom I respect. I have absolutely no vested interest in the outcome because I won't ever own a 416 Rigby or a 45/70 unless somebody drops one off here for me to have.

This is what I have found. In the Book any shot you want they list and explore the possible loads of just about every functional hunting rifle ever made. However the 45/70 is not even mentioned in the book. I find it hard to beleive that they did research on some really obscure cartridges and never once mentioned the 45/70. My guess is that the cartridge is just not worthy of their needs as a hunting cartridge. Clearly it was their choice to eliminate it. The folks who wrote this book are also part of the core of American rifleman and with tons of international experience.

Next I looked over Ken Waters book. He's got a hella good reputation as well. He claims that the highest velocity possible as with a 300 grain bullt and that was just over 2200fps before pressure became a problem. This was with a Siamese Mauser and Ruger Number one not a Marlin.

He managed 2027 fps with a 400 grain and that load had poor accuracy. Another max load combination was with a 400 grain bullet and managed 1900 plus but again had very poor accuracy. He knows what is safe too, this guy was the editor of Handloading Magazine and whote this two volume set of reloading tests. It's a safe bed that he could be an expert witness on anything reloading related in any court case in the USA.

With these as sources I cannot imagine anybody loading a 400 grian bullet to 2400fps which would match the Rigby. The 45/70 handles 57 grains of poweder and the 416 Rigby over 100 that alone shows the difference in possible velocity with a 400 grain bullet. And none of this considers the excessive heat of the roasting African Sunshine on your shells.

Even if you do get an additional 400FPS with a 30-36" barrel and a non-jacketed hard cast bullet is that really still the same? Hard cast bullets are certainly not ideal hunting loads. I would not choose a brittle hardcast bullet as a top contender for my general plains game hunting!

JJ did any of the sources you spoke of mention anything about an arrow shaft @ 275 FPS? Yet EVERY one of the BIG 5 have died just as dead to them as any 375 H&H or Lott or NE have they not?

jj- some day you will have to forego the "hard cast" bs an try really soft lead - works much better.

Brent

Once upon a .45-70 thread I decided to find the "minimal .458" for Africa hunting. After some investigation I borrowed a .450 Heavy Express Short Action rifle from Jim Busha of Heavy Express. Jim had two lines of cartridges based on the .348 Win case with rim turned down and rimless extractor groove cut. The rifle was a short action Ruger M77 Mark II. It also had a muzzle break and a buttstock recoil device. This rifle IIRC would also reach the 2,200s with heavy .458 bullets (up to 500 grains).

After some reflection I concluded that you need a certain weight in a .458 anyway, so a short action was not buying you anything. So much for the minimal .458: I decided the .458 Win Mag was it.

jim

Cats I think to make this comparison realistic you would have to use archery with field points not broadheads. I don't know of any of the big five killed with field tip arrows.

A field point is to a solid what a soft point is to a broadhead in general terms

i love pissing contests

my 45-70 guide gun is my favorite! its fun to shoot handles well and dangerous stuff under 100 yards (all dangerous game is under 100 yards)dies with little tracking. the "miracle" is in the bullet material shape and speed. hard above 400 grains with big meplats and moderate velocities is the magic if i am hunting in the timber with scary animals around i want this gun. if i am out of the trees and can hit an animal undisturbed i can get away with a 270 on a big bear ect. i feel safer with this reliable fast acting combo knowing i can put 5 rounds in a bear in 10 seconds if i am not distracted by the pee running down my leg. i can put out a bears lights with one hard cast through the skull. thats all i need. some good reading is the june issue of shooting illustrated. on the cover is a guide gun with the words bear buster. this guy put two of garrets 540 grain hard casts lengthwise through a large black bear. this is the perfect set up just like mine, 2.5 power leupold scout scope backed up by a ghost ring set up. but more impressive than that is the story about the guy who killed two cape buffs with une shot! i am not a "true believer" fanatic, but this is my favorite gun and hunting cape buffs i will pick the 416 but deer out to 250 yards and elk out to 200 yards bear and bison out to 150 yards this gun will do it. its not perfect and has limitations but i love it. thus my call sign "boom stick"

JJ there is no argument in my tone, I simply asked you a question. If the 45-70 is inadequate for DG how then is a arrow traveling at 275 FPS with a BH attached adequate by the laws set down in some African countries?
Surely the 45-70 is much more potent than an measely arrow.
A carbon shaft launched from a bow weight of 60# or better is indeed a lethal weapon, though it has not "shocking power" of 45-70 with even low velocity loads.
The truth be told, and a dirty little truth most fine arms owners dislike reading, is the 45-70 is indeed adequate within normal DG ranges with modern rifles and good stout handloads of quality bullets. Will it ever be equal to a 458 Win mag or a 416 in praticle use...no but then again it's users know that.
Me I'd have no problem creeping in as close as possible and launching a shaft into a big old buff's rib section an had I won Saeed's buff hunt would have done so. Those more faint of heart may wish to watch from the truck or carry a NE, that is their choice. A choice I have no problems with.

Cats,
I guess we wouldn't be having this discussion if Howard Hill and his ilk had used 45/70s?


Fact is, you either love it or ya hate it.
The other fact is that no amount or hard cast, magical wide meplats or super lever-action guns will make the 45/70 into what they claim it can be-The poor man's 458 Win Mag!
Put the 45/70 into a bolt action rifle crank up the velocity approaching .458 Winny with a whole bunch of recoil and you've got what you need. Matter of fact I think it would be real close!

Like I said, just wait'n for the photos and chronograph data!

Where is that "Dead Horse" icon when you really need it????

the 45/70 proves that there is no horse so dead it can't be beaten to water!!

i'll buy 2100 with a 400 gr...

500 at 2100? the 458 winnie struggles for that with hornady super duper mag loads.


jeffe

Jeffe, the question is, given there is a horse, whether or not the .45-70 could kill it.

I think the jury is still out but the answer seems to be "no".

I just wish someone would send me Africa with a .45-70 to do the field research....
Brent

quote:

If the 45-70 is inadequate for DG how then is a arrow traveling at 275 FPS with a BH attached adequate by the laws set down in some African countries?

Cats, you are making an arguement where one didn't exist. JJ was only wondering how someone could possibly think they can equal the performance of a 458 Lott or 416 Rigby with their 45/70.

That aside, I agree with you to some degree. A 45/70 is probably a better killer than a bow in almost all cases. Its just not relevant to the point of the original post. Whether a bow is an effective or sane choice for DG hunting is another discussion altogether.

Cheers,
Canuck

The 45/70 is what it is, and if you leave it at that it's a great killer. I used it on plains game up to and including eland and found it a winner. My shots were all under 100 yds and I picked my shots. I leave on sun for namibia, maybe I'll have to take the marlin for another run of hunting just for fun!

cats

2200 with a 400 grainer in a Marlin GG? NFW, Hosay. I've chrono'd my loads and can get 1825 with an 18" barrel. When I attempted to get more out of it, I ran into pressures you wouldn't believe. On one of the pieces of brass, the caliber engraving was obliterated by the bolt head. That's what I get for listening to a friend who wanted to develop some loads in his GG. Out of a 22" or longer barrel, 2200 may be possible.

quote:

I just wish someone would send me Africa with a .45-70 to do the field research....
Brent

Maybe we should have a lottery and whoever wins has to hunt a buffalo with a 45/70 and videotape the whole thing.

Regards,

Terry

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brent:
Jeffe, the question is, given there is a horse, whether or not the .45-70 could kill it.

I think the jury is still out but the answer seems to be "no".

I just wish someone would send me Africa with a .45-70 to do the field research....
Brent[/QUOTE

the 45-70 killed two cape buffs with one shot. it is not a pea shooter and it is not a howitzer. but it will kill cape buffs it has and it will.

boom stick, my comment was entirely sarcastic. On AR, a .45-70 is undergunned for mice nevermind buffalo, and forget about real results.

Still, I do wish someone would hold a lottery for a .45-70 cape buffalo hunt. I'd LOVE to enter (not to mention win). God that sounds like an echo....

Brent

1st,I do love the 45-70 and find it fun and useful. But what I wonder about is the round was designed for miltary use. To kill people, which don't take much. If the people who designed it were around now I wonder what their take on all this would be. Sure we have come a long way on the makings but I would love to know their take.
Brent, You could't kill this horse with a 5,000 pound bunker buster but will be happy to go with you and capture the moment in photograpic splender for all to see. I'll be right next to the guy with the Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
[QUOTE]I just wish someone would send me Africa with a .45-70 to do the field research....
Brent

Maybe we should have a lottery and whoever wins has to hunt a buffalo with a 45/70 and videotape the whole thing.

send meeeeeee! send meeeeee! oooh oooh send me!

i guess even on tape it will be dismissed. we have photos but those arnt enough. we have gun articles, those arnt enough, we have almost wiped out the buffalo thats not enough every game manimal conceived has been laid to rest. thats not enough, jesus can raise from the dead and that was not enough for 75% of the world if jesus shot a cape buff with one i guess maybe we would have to do even more convincing. most people just use them and and say to themselves if i tell people they wouldnt believe me like spoting a ufo. according to some here the 45-70 just bounces of deer. if you need convincing you have to be convincable first

quote:

Maybe we should have a lottery and whoever wins has to hunt a buffalo with a 45/70 and videotape the whole thing.

Regards,

Terry

Throw me into that brair patch. I will volunteer!!!!!!

Just so you know that there are smaller leverguns used in Africa (non dangerous game)

http://www.leverguns.com/outdoors/levergunners.htm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by invader66:
1st,I do love the 45-70 and find it fun and useful. But what I wonder about is the round was designed for miltary use. To kill people, which don't take much. If the people who designed it were around now I wonder what their take on all this would be. Sure we have come a long way on the makings but I would love to know their take.

semper fi...

it was used for harrassment fire at long range at much slower speed kinda like the 06 was used for killing at a distance not up close

anyone who serves in the military is my brother. you have all my respect

quote:

Maybe we should have a lottery and whoever wins has to hunt a buffalo with a 45/70 and videotape the whole thing.

I am having deja-vu all over again!!

Cheers,
Canuck

GUYS,

A good friend of mine Rich Lucibella has killed three buff in Tanzania with his .45-70.

Does that make it a .458Lott?? NOOO. But it is obviously capable of killing buffalo as is a .30-06 or a 7.62X39. It is just not my first choice as a buff gun.

The .45-70 is sure enough a fun little hog rifle and a great brush gun on elk. It IS NOT A reliable stopper on thick skinned DG.

I really don't know what is so difficult about that concept. If you want to use one go right ahead, but don't sit there and try to convince the rest of the world that the white trash, redneck .458 is THE cats meow for any and all DG.

PS

I've got an 1895n CB that's been cut to 22" hold 8 riounds and is all smoothed out and melded and joint sauldered. I love that rifle for what it is. A really cool saddle gun for elk and hogs.

Whether a .45-70 will kill a Buff or is adequate for Buff (or other game) is not the topic of this thread. The discussion is about this:

quote:

Originally posted by JJHACK:
... His buddy says that in his Siamese mauser he can easily equal the 416 rigby and it's more powerful then the 458 Win Mag. He claims 2100 fps with a 500 grain bullet.

My question is this, how does a shell that holds only 55 grains or so of powder do all this? The rigby is over 100 grains and the win mag is stuffed to the gills to get 2100fps?

Am I missing something here?

As Canuck replied to someone else above:
"JJ was only wondering how someone could possibly think they can equal the performance of a 458 Lott or 416 Rigby with 45/70."

-Bob F.

quote:

white trash, redneck

wow, its getting warm in here...

i'd use a 45-70 as a stopper with a garret tungsten load. if you cand hit the brain at close range you shouldnt be hunting dangerous stuff. but like i said, i'd rather use a 416 flat nose solid