Are lever actions a good choice for a dangerous game rifle?

For the purpose of this post, dangerous game means elephant, buffalo, hippo and rhino.

Lever actions have 3 primary disadvantages for use as a dangerous game rifle as of this date:

1. They jam. They jam a lot. And when thing go right they still jam because get nervous and short stroke them. And when they jam, it can be difficult, slow and tedious to get them working again.

2. They are not chambered for calibers adequate for use as a DGR. The ballistics of the 45-70 and 50-100, etc., are the same as the old failed and discontinued British BPE cartridges. Unfortunately for fans of lever actions, no lever action currently made has sufficient action length to take true dangerous game calibers, such as the 470 NE, 500 NE, 458 lott, etc. If there were a lever in one of those calibers, then it would be sufficient.

3. Even if a lever were built in an appropriate dangerous game caliber, the ergonomics of levers are such that recoil would be fierce and difficult to tolerate. Well built modern bolt rifles can transmit recoil to the body in a much less painful way than any lever I have ever seen.

Conclusion: Use the lever on whitetail, but get a dangerous game rifle for dangerous game.

I have been following these threads, strictly for amusement, and haven't been dissapointed. It amazes me that one seemingly innocent question, or even the slightest suggestion of using a lever action in Africa, particularly on dangerous game, can get some people's blood pressure to elevate off the scale.

I have only dreamed of hunting Buffalo (and there was no lever action in my hand at the time), so I really don't have an experienced opinion on DGR's.

There are two things that have come up that surprise me though. I have been using lever actions since I was 10 y.o., and I have NEVER jammed one. I am really surprised that this is that big an issue. And don't get me wrong, I am not perfect -- I have jammed bolt actions.

The other was the use of 375's on buffalo. It seems to me it would be silly not to include them under the category of "buffalo guns" even if they aren't the perfect stopper. Heck, Saeed has killed about 80 of the buggers with his 375.

Anyhoo, just a comment.

Canuck

Canuck, I have to agree with you about the reliability of lever actions. Of the pushfeed actions of the world, the lever action is the most reliable of them all. I HAVE jammed them, and on those occasions, the relief was a real job. I was not faced with a, one lung wounded, Cape Buffalo at the time, however.

I too, agree with you on the 375 H&H and it's brothers, on Buffalo. Though it is not the stopper that some larger chamberings are, in the hands of a man who knows his rifle, and Buffalo, it will work, as a stopper as well. Even the 9.3X74R in a good double rifle is more desirable, to me, as a stopper, than any 45-70, in a lever gun. I happen to have a 45-70 S/S double rifle, and a 9.3X74R double rifle both, and the 9.3 would be in my hands long before the 45-70, for that purpose. The unanitiated want to quote numbers to make the case for the 45-70 lever gun, but unfortunetly Buffalo do not read numbers.

The problem I have with lever actions as a DGR, is #1 they are very noisy, and #2 they are very easy to enjure yourself with when opperated rapidly, by driveing the trigger through you trigger finger, I've done just that, while shooting at a running Muledeer, with a 336 Marlin 30-30. The stocks, and the over all lay out of the lever action maganifies RECOIL GREATLY! The old 86s, and 71s rebarreled to 450-348 Alaskan,because the 348, and 45-70s weren't enough for the big Bears, were often too much for most folks to handle because of the horrendous felt recoil. I bought one of the 71s so barreled from the man who had it made in Anchorage, and simply could not tolerate the recoil with any load above the 45-70 level, so he gained nothing, by the re-work on the rifle. I re-barreled it back to 348 Win, with a used 71 barrel from Numerich, and it still kicks more (felt recoil)than my 450/400NE 3" A&N double rifle. In fact it feels worse than my Westley Richards 500/450 double rifle!

The lever action is not the problem for a man who can take the recoil of a REAL Cape buffalo cartridge in one, if it would fit in the gun. It cretainly would not be my first choice, even if real buffalo rounds would fit!

A lever action chambered for 45-70, can, and has benn used to kill Cape Buffalo quite dead, but it is NOT a Cape buffalo cartridge, and the lever gun is about at it's upper limit with hot 45-70 loads, where recoil is concerned!

All that is the long winded way of saying IMO, "NO"!

[ 06-18-2002, 19:29: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Mac,
I was thinkin' real hard about converting a Browning BLR in .338 to .458 Win, a few years back. After reading the recent threads, I'm glad I didn't! BTW ... I consider a powerful lever gun a far more defendable choice of weapon than any bow or handgun. I am a bit surprised at the degree of negativity towards their use. Perhaps I have finally found a theme where I am among the more open minded?

[ 06-18-2002, 20:22: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Phil Shoemaker , the Alaskan guide , apparently feels levers are reliable enough , as he has written he uses a '86 Winchester for backup on brown bear at times , as well as his bolt guns .

To me , as others have stated the drawback of the levers is the weight and stocking of the gun for handling the recoil from cartridges with the neccesary horsepower . But I see no reason why a properly stocked rifle with the needed weight to handle healthy recoil couldn't be made ........

The levers would have a few advantages such as speed of reppeat shots and the fact that you could have a cocked and loaded rifle at the ready and continue to refill the magazine........that could come in handy on one of those bulletproof buffs we hear about .........

I don't recall Phil Shoemaker ever advocating a lever action and he is a very good friend of mine and I book hunts for him..I believe you talking about Dave Scovill..Phil uses a 458 and a 505 Gibbs...

I like lever actions and I have never had a Win. of older vintage fail to feed unless it was just plumb worn out...

The problem with Lever Action DGR rifles is they are simply not powerfull enough and these guys that are making them crowd powerfull enough are doing it at excess pressure for the action IMHO...

I recall a proto-type lever action rifle, suitable for the .458 and such. It was created by L.W. Seecamp, the world famous pistolmaker, I believe. Maybe 30 years back, or so. It was, supposedly, just about to be marketed but I never heard what happened. It looked very good and had an excellent one piece stock. Anyone recall?

Ray , I certainly DON"T claim to know Shoemaker , but I was recalling an article of his . The Rifle Hunting annual , 1999. page 10.

"Other rifles beside the .458 are occationally used. I have a reproduction Model 1886 Winchester .45/70 carbine and a Bauska actioned .505 Gibbs. Both are powerful , reliable short range stoppers ........"

Now that you mention it though , Scovill has written quite a bit about another Alaskan bear guide that likes lever guns for backup , mostly converted 1895 's in the big Hawk calibers ............you can argue about the levergun's ballistics being adequate , but personally I feel they are reliable . Certainly better than a 700 Remington ......Ha!

[ 06-18-2002, 23:35: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

Ray,
I know this information has been posted on another thread but I want your comment on it. My 86 Win is being rechambered to 45/110. Based on a necked down 50/110 2.4 inch case COAL of 2.88 inches. Initial load development has yielded 2425 fps with a 400 grain kodiac soft and 2400 fps with 430 grain hardcast. That is 458 Win velocities, I see no reason why 2100 is not possible with 500 grains but load development hasn't got that far.

I have listened to the skepticism of many on this board about the suitability of the 45/70 and when the opportunity to rechamber to a more powerful round came my way I took it. When I get a chance to take enough time off from work I will go to africa to prove its effectiveness.

Monty Browning just recently killed a cape buffalo with his longbow at ten yards. One arrow!

A finer gentleman, dedicated bowhunter and advocate of hunting you will not find.

Unfortunately from reading these threads there are many that would belittle and denigrate his bowhunting accomplishments because he didn't use a DG rifle in the ""appropriate"" caliber.

Nickudu, the BLR is one that with some major changes, mostly in the rack, and pinion system could work. The R&P in the BLRs were problematic on some models. The BLR, however is only a pseudo lever action. What I mean by this is, it is really a pushfeed turn bolt action, that is operated by a lever actuated rack, and pinion, instead of a bolt handle. The things that are really good about this action is that it is really a bolt action, and that it is box magazine fed. It's draw backs are it is not long enough to handle anything longer that 338 win Mag. With it's weaknesses beafed up, and lenthened so it would handle 375 H&H length cartridges it would be something to consider. Even chambered for 458 Win Mag, which will fit in the profile of the stock 338 Win Mag action, it would be leaps and bounds better than most lever actions on the market now, and certainly better than one chambered for 45-70.

Stock designs for the existing lever actions would be hard to make into something that would handle real recoil effeciently, because of the basic shape of the rifle it's self. Anything is possible, however, but the thought is accademic, at this point, because none of the lever rifles that will handle the length, will handle the pressure. The BLR comes closer than anything,being a six lug turn bolt action, but it isn't long enough either, and lacks weight in the steel. IMO! The BLR would take away one bad thing the others have, and that is, the trigger goes down with the lever, and is not hanging on the bottom of the action like a spear waiting for your finger!

I think the question asked was in regard to existing lever actions! Anything can be modified to do anything, but at what cost? It makes far more sense, to me, to simply use a rifle that was designed as a DGR, and be done with it, instead of this "MAKE DO" dreaming!

To give you something to through in my face, I'll tell you that I have a 1895 Marlin 45-70, that has the barrel cut to 16.5" the magazine tube also a full 16.5". It has Ashley Ghost ring rear sight, and heavy front bead. I carry this little "TRAPPER" in a quiver type holster on my packframe while fishing in Alaska. Here, or in the confines of a pop-tent,at night, is where the rifle makes sense to me. It is better than any pistol, is easy to get to, and handle,inside a tent, and shoots better, and easier than a handgun, and carries six rounds. Though this would not be my choice for HUNTING Brown Bear, it is far better than a prayer, or a handgun for protecting myself from them. NOW, if I could fish, and carry a 500 NE double rifle at the same time, that is what I'd carry. This was made for a camp gun, and is left in camp while we hunt in Alaska. For the hunting, I use a synthetic stocked Whitworth African express 375H&H rifle, with 2550 fps loads useing 300 gr Nosler partitions!

HI,

Let me say that the 50-110 with somkeless powder and the new starline brass is close to a 500 Jeffery, I said close. I have reloading data that shows a 525 grain bullet going 2145 fps and was informed that it could get 2200 fps with out a problem. I will let you know when I get my win 86 in a 50-110 from MR. CLAY.I also have talk to GS Custom Bullets and they said there 500 grain FN Jeffery will work in my 50-110, even said it will work in a 50 AK and a 50-110 has alot more room.So who ever said that the 50-110 is not enough they are sadly mistaken, this will give ME around 5,600 FPs. I think that is enough for what ever walks or runs within its range as those big flat bullets loss energy real fast.I say 150 yards or less, that is why I think a 416,404 or bigger bolt is better because it can shot at longer range and keep more energy.I still would not hesitate to hunt anything 150 yards or less with a 50-110 lever,I know that it would of course have to be 100% reliable, that is just common sense. Thanks, Kev

HI,

One more thing I have order some of the 500 grain FNs Jeffery bullets. I just called Starline to order some 50-110 brass,250 rounds. They have informed me that they are out of stock, but will have some in two weeks. Thanks,Kev

HI,
Now you guys got me going. I have a book by Elmer Keith who stated he prefers a lever over any 30 cal when at close range or in thick cover. There was a list of reasons about the lever beeing not qualified for hunting dangerous game and there were good points made.Here are some reasons that a lever has going for it.1;You can always have a round in the chamber and load it without have to open the action, if you need a shot it is there for you.2;quick handling, some of the levers I have seen are like shot guns they point so nice,3;some models do not have a safety you just have to pull back on that big hammer.4;And I say once again look at the 50 Ak and the 50-110 they have a great deal of power and .510 bullet makes big holes. And there are some new rounds coming out that look great to, also I have seen some people who can crank out shots of a lever so fast I thought it was a semi- auto.MR. Johnson hunt the big browns bears in the thick cover of SE Alaska for years with his 50 AK and never had a problem, and the models simular to a win 86, 71 do have longer actions for these rounds. The win 86 had the black powder 50-110 nearly 100 years ago? Thanks,Kev

JNC91 and others,
If you can get 2100 FPS with a 400 gr. 40 cal. bullet or 2100 FPS with a 500 gr. 458 bullet in your lever guns at "proper pressure levels", remembering the African heat and the lack of a "strong ejector & extractor system" in lever guns the I would never argue that you have a buffalo rifle..I have set fourth the criteria you have to achieve..All must be met and you had better be sure or it could backfire on you....

I hear these claims from the producers and must admit to some scepticism on my part as I have digested a lot of "hype" over the years from folks that claim great things from calibers that no one else has been able to accomplish with high pressure etc. In todays world of chronographs and pressure equipment, it is pretty easy to discredit some, but the problem is still those who would rather claim success than admit to purchasing a lemon, so there ya are..

I have offered to chronograph their guns and shoot buff with them if they would furnish me a rifle and ammo, but have not been accepted as a viable test unit by them as yet.....

Maybe they can perform, show me!!! but don't quote me gobbley gook...I'll sure admit it if I am wrong, and I may well be, my only indicator is I have never been able to achieve these balistics in any of my old lever guns in 45-90 or 50-110..

These threads are a waste of time. But I've got some free time so I'll join in.

Most often the "My Lever Gun Will Kill a Buffalo" thread is started by the guy who admits he will never have the resources to hunt a buffalo in Africa but wants to pontificate on the capabilities of his favorite lever action big bore. That's fine and dandy, but it will never prove a point. Introduce me to the guy who has hunted dangerous game in Africa with a lever rifle at least once and is itching to do it again and I'll listen attentively to his arguments.

I've seen guys on motorcycles try to jump a bunch of cars and sometimes they pull it off, but that doesn't mean its a good idea.

[ 06-19-2002, 01:47: Message edited by: ForrestB ]

HI,

I agree with many on this site, the reasons why I think the lever is getting better is the newer models like the win86 or simular types are made with better matterals. The powders have improved along with the bullets. The gentleman that BBA has got a 50-110 out of a 20 inch barrel to 2145 fps and informed me could have gotten more.I will get my 50-110 from MR. Clay in 6-8 weeks and it will have reloading data with it, so it will help me know more on the topic. I also will say I have never hunted anything like BUFF, bear yes.I am just looking at this from a logical point of view. The numbers tell me it will work, 525 grain bullet at 2200 fps, ME 5,600. It looks real good,like I said I would go with a bolt action for as a all around hutning rifle as they are more versatile, more so when shots get out there longer.I guess if that was not the case all PH would have levers, but I believe in keeping my eyes wide open. Thanks,Kev

Henry McCann,
I hope you don't think I'm poo-pooing your bowhunting buddys' hunting prowess. I meant only that I've never heard of a "stopping bow" or a brain shot with an arrow. If things get shitty, I'll take the big lever .. thank you.

Mac,
Those are the reasons I was looking at the "BLR", along with the metallurgical advantages of investment casting process. They are very strong and IMHO if they can handle the .300 & .338, they can certainly handle the .458. Whether or not "it's a good idea", as Forrest says, I don't care to get involved in other than to say that I, for one, give the lever guys the benefit of the doubt. They know their rifles and they know how to use 'em. I say have it guys and good hunting.

[ 06-19-2002, 01:27: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

HI,

I agree with many on this site, the reasons why I think the lever is getting better is the newer models like the win86 or simular types are made with better matterals. The powders have improved along with the bullets. The gentleman that BBA has got a 50-110 out of a 20 inch barrel to 2145 fps and informed me could have gotten more.I will get my 50-110 from MR. Clay in 6-8 weeks and it will have reloading data with it, so it will help me know more on the topic. I also will say I have never hunted anything like BUFF, bear yes.I am just looking at this from a logical point of view. The numbers tell me it will work, 525 grain bullet at 2200 fps, ME 5,600. It looks real good,like I said I would go with a bolt action for as a all around hunting rifle as they are more versatile, more so when shots get out there longer.I guess if that was not the case all PH would have levers, but I believe in keeping my eyes wide open. Thanks,Kev

I would have to agree with Ray on this subject! I'm thinking of doing up a lever gun myself, but until I'm satisfied that it will deliver the proper weight of bullet at the right speed, within pressure limits of the action.......

KEV-
Your gun sounds interesting but don't be mistaken about it's comparison to the 500Jeffry. The 500 can take those 500gr bullets to way past 2100fps, more like 2500fps with relative ease! Still, if that 50-110 can do 2100fps with them at 40,000psi I will own one rather quickly!

The one place I think a lever-action in something like a "loaded-up" .45/70 or .450 Marlin might be appropriate is on leopard...especially if you are coursing the cat with dogs. Shooting is apt to be fast and furious. The same might be said, to a much lesser extent, on a tracking hunt for lions. I wouldn't hesitate to use a .450 Marlin lever-gun for leopard but I'm not sure about lions....the other stuff like buff, etc are stricltly a stunt just like using a muzzle-loader, a pistol or a bow.....only not quite as bad.

Personally, I am not very impressed by the 400 grain 45 cal bullets. I do, however, really like the 400 grain .416 bullets (better BC & SD).

If you could get 2400fps out of a 450/110 with 400 grain bullets, I wonder if you could pull it off with a "416/110" and 400 grain bullets? That would equal a factory 416 Rigby, or hotter loads in my 416 Taylor. That I would find pretty impressive for a lever gun. I suspect the longer 416 bullet would overly infringe on the powder space.

Just thinkin out loud...

Canuck

Atkinson,
First, let me say I respect your knowledge and experience regarding DGR's and DG hunting. You have "Been There And Done That".
Your response to this thread shows solid and trustworthy thinking.
I'm responding to you in regards to your comment about getting 2100 FPS with a 400 grain bullet in a lever gun.
I had a 450 Alaskan built on a Browning 71 and had no problem acheiving these ballistics.
My load of 67 grains of 3031 behind a 400 gr. Speer did this with no problem. Actually, I was getting 2150 and could have done better as this is not a max load in the 71. I had a 24 in barrel on this rifle so this helped a little. I could have gotten 2200 with just a little more powder but didn't as this combination had been my goal. The case could have had another grain and a half put in but I didn't goe there. The 71 functioned flawlessly with cases ejected out with pazazz. I had to watch my cycling of the lever so as to be able to round up the fired brass.
My loads were all chronographed.
As to the reports of such heavy recoil, well anyone who does any shooting of mag loads should not have any problems with this load. I had several friends with no magnum experience shoot the gun and none seemed shakened by the exersize.
I made a terrible mistake and sold the gun. Should have stayed the course.
Roger

Kev,

Your 50-110 is not anywhere near a 500 Jefferys. The Jefferys pushes a 535 @ 2400 fps. That load only generates 38000 psi. If you want to push that Mauser action a bit that Jeffery will push that 535 grain solid at 2550 - 2600 fps. You can also load a 570 grain slug up to 2500 fps with the Jefferys.

You say you can get 2150 fps out of your 50-110. That will most likely work great on buffalo, but it is far short of the Jefferys to the tune of about 1000 pound feet of muzzle energy. You may have some issues with penetration of heavy bone, but I doubt it.

Your load is actually closer to the origianl 505 Gibbs load of 525 grain @ 2300 fps. Again you can easily load a Gibbs up to 2500 fps with a 600 grain pill. If brass will allow you can get 2750 fps with the Gibbs although this is a very abusive load for both rifle and shooter!

I can tell you that with a 10.5 pound rifle a .510" 600 grain slug at 2680 fps is not painful it is numbing! It is a very peculiar feeling losing all you feeling in your shoulder for few seconds. This was a boo boo while undergoing load development in my 500 AHR.

Again I personally would not use a lever action for buffalo hunting because of the extreme recoil and slow recovery. All I can say to those that want to use a lever gun on safari is "what ever floats your boat". I would not refer to my lever gun as a DGR though. Most big bore hunting rifles are not true DGRs. They are just factory guns in larger than "normal" calibers used to shoot real big critters. A true DGR will be flawless in feeding, preferable have controlled feed or better yet two barrels, and the stock will be fitted to the shooter in such a manner as to become an extention of the shooters arm when mounted to fire, the sights will line up with the shooters eye when mounted in such a manner as not to require any conscious thought, etc, etc.

I do not know where all this jamming talk is coming from. I have never had a M94 or M86 jam. I wonder if some of the jamming is due to bolt guys who are not smarter than their new lever gun.

Todd E

HI,

Okay then a 505 gibbs, I said 525 at 2150, but I have talk to some gentlemen who, and I also feel that I could get 2200 fps or maybe 2250 fps.That would be pushing it, but I am looking at 200-250 fps more than a 50 Alaskan and that has gotten a 500 or 525 to near 2000 fps, it case is 2.2, the 50-110 is 2.4, but very big.Thanks for the correction Todd, now I can say a 505 gibbs. Kev

HI,

One more thing I would take a 416 on any hunt in which dangerous game was on the agenda.And the 50-110 would be good within its range,150 yards, as those big flat bullets loss energy very fast.Thanks,Kev

QSL,
you need to re read my post as I stipulated a 40 CAL 400 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS....OR a 458 cal. 500 gr. bullet at 2100 as minimum for Buffalo...

A 400 gr. 45 cal just does not cut it in the penitration and SD department, not even in a Barnes X bullet...I have seen these bullets fail to penitrate properly on Buffalo... the 450 gr. Barnes X seems to work well in the 458 at about 2200 FPS..

Rusty,

You already know that there is not a single PH on the whole african continent who uses a lever gun as backup for thick skinned DG (elephant, buffalo, rhino, hippo).

500 GRAIN,
To answer your question of "Is a lever gun a good choice for dangerous game?"
For you,NO. You need every advantage out there to get the upper hand. Probably not skilled enough to
take something big and bad with a lever gun.
I could be wrong, because I don't know you, but by your postings, you seem like you may lack the personal confidence in yourself.
Trigger

George,
Lever Action Fever (LAF) is a serious ailment. These LAF lads need to be accorded a bit of consideration for their illness, just as you would the handicapped. Please put on the kid gloves, or better yet, disposable exam gloves, when dealing with them. I have seen the light and will try to maintain this enlightened attitude regarding those afflicted with LAF. This LAF matter is no laughing matter either. What if it happened to a family member or loved one of yours? BE NICE!

Hi Georgy,
My resumee is quite full, however, never been to Africa.
What would you know about confidence, Georgy?
As I said earlier in this post, (evidently your mouth has overran your ears) the cash flow stops me from hunting Africa. A wife and 3 children on my salary does'nt leave much room for Africa.
Also, 500 grains is the one who popped the question, i'm giving him my answer. I did'nt think it would put a kink in your nose, but if it did, good. I guess my post hit close to home, eh, Georgy.
Also, I will not take out a 2nd mortgage on the home, just to go show you how to put a bullet in
an animals head or heart with a lever gun.
For heavans sake, grow up, will you...
Trigger

HI,

I do not want to get into a fight, but if a 525 grain bullet goes 2200 fps with a ME of 5,600 FPs, does it matter that it comes from a lever or bolt action.I understand that a control feed and big claw are very important.I think if you are sure of the firearm is 100% reliable it will work.Now upon saying that I would, when I go to Africa if it brakes the bank or not, would bring a bolt action rifle in a 375, 416, 404 one of those, still have not made up my mind on which one yet.As they will shoot out to a longer range and will be more useful for all game in general. I must say that I do not have the experience of hunting Africa like many here do, so I can only give my opinion on this. Thanks,Kev

I have noticed that the Lever fans seem to insist that everybody agree with them, and none of them have hunted Buffalo in the thick Jesse.

I think, if your going to ask a question, then you have to realize that everybody is not required to give you the answer that you want...

The truth of the matter is a lever is A fine action and I love them, but the calibers are often not what they are reputed to be. In other words some of the guys building these big lever guns have a very dishonest chronograph, or they are stretching the ability of the action to its ultimate and considering the extraction of all lever guns this could get you into a world of hurt IMHO...I have no doubt that a 45-70 or 45-90 would kill a buffalo or a 30-30 for that matter, but it might get you killed if you shot an agressive bull just a tad shallow...I have looked old M'Bogo in the eye 3 times (charging) and I want a gun that is not contraversial in the least.

I'm content to hunt deer in Idaho with my 25-35 and 30-30. I enjoy that..I will hunt elk with my 308 Mod. 99 and I enjoy that...I will hunt Buffalo with my double rifle, 404 and 416 Rem for the mostpart.....

Common since is the key to this subject and it slips away form time to time when one gets LAF....

Triggerhap2,

I suggest you grow up, and stop believing every marketing claim you hear.

By your response, it's obvious you've never hunted anything that fights back. Had you done so, you would have said so early on.

I don't need you to show me how to hunt or place bullets; I've done both, on three continents. What have you done?

So, let's see. You've never hunted DG, but you KNOW what works. You never WILL hunt DG, but you feel qualified to judge the mettle of those who have. That's pretty funny; you ought to write marketing claims for a living.

Keep dreaming. You're not convincing anyone here, and based on your remarks on the Marlin Talk forums, you're not doing much better there.

George

Ray,
Thanks for showing such compassion and understanding for the LAF sufferers, yet speaking the truth. You are to be commended for your kind and realistic approach to those so afflicted.

Georgy,
Show me where i've posted on Marlin talk forums, whatever that is. If you've seen me there, you truly are dillusional.
I hav'nt marketed any particular products either.
Numbnuts, pull your head out.
I've hunted bear, but for a guy like you, bears are harmless, like squirrels in metro NYC. You probably hog tie bears.
Simple fact is, if you hit something hard enough with a big enough chunk of lead, it's going to die. I don't give a shit if it's fired out of a sling shot, or your precious SxS or claw.
Now take your medication.
Trigger

Triggerhap2,
I will have to contest your statments as year before last I saw a Cape Buff take 13 470's and another take 9 before expiring, both solids and softs...I have seen others take up to 12 and 8 500 N.E. and 458 Win rounds Once wounded and given time to pump that 55 gallons of adrenaline, they can be a force to deal with...they ain't black bear, people have killed black bear with a knife and Boone used a switch.

Also, the man your argueing with I know for a fact has a lot of experience in Africa and that surely counts for something.

Perhaps your talking when you should be listening and I don't mean that in a condeming way, but am suggesting you could learn something here.