I was talking to a hunter the other day and he told me how he's going to go Back to The RSA and hunt Buff with his 45/70.

Is there any wisdom to this or is it pure folly ?

For you old Africa hands to you see this type of thing often. If you PH's have a guy that wants to use this round on Buff what do you say to him ? "I dont think his PH has any idea he's bringing this rifle for buff", Its the Marlin with the 22" barrel.

He was asking me about loads ; What bullets should I recomend to him if he continues with this ?

I told him he should ask his PH first but I dont think he's going to listen to me. He has money and can buy any rifle he wants but he's adamant about bringing his 45/70.......thanx............10

10,

While I admit I am a fan of the 45/70, and might even be tempted to try it, he is severely limiting the rounds true capability by using the marlin.

He's looking at max bullet weights in the 400 grain range due to overall length issues in the marlin. If he really had his heart set on using that caliber, tell him to go with a ruger #1. Then at least he can load some pretty hot stuff with 450-500 grain bullets. And recommend premium bullets, and a real good insurance policy, in case he gets stomped.

As much as I like that round, it would be one of the very last choices for me to take a buff with. Just my opinion.

Oh yeah, almost forgot...

I think it is critical that he discuss this with his PH before going over. I would imagine the PH would be PISSED if he found out after the client showed up. It's not fair to the PH not to tell him.

[This message has been edited by BigBores (edited 07-02-2001).]

You should tell him to look into the premium 45-70 hunting ammo from Corbon, Buffalo Bore, and Garret Cartridges. These are all made for the Marlin 1895 Leverguns, and have all proven themselves on cape buffalo. I know off hand that Garret has a 540gr hardcast 'hammerhead' @ about 1600 fps that won't be stopped by 8 feet of buffalo. Check them out at:
www.buffalobore.com, http://www.garrettcartridges.com/
http://www.corbon.com/index.html

good luck.

OK, 10 Point, now you've done it, you'll have these 45-70 nuts swarming on this post like flys on sh--t, expelling the virtures of hard lead bullets at rock tossin velocities, for their Marlin baby....run for your life, the BS is going to get deep!!

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I agree with you Ray, and I'm wearing my waders in prep for the sh*t storm.

Hey, I like my rock-tosser! Like I said, with the right ammo, It would be capable. The best choice, mabey not. Me, I'll probabally never use mine for more than deer. If I was looking at a Cape Buffalo, I'd likely feel a whole lot safer with a .505 Gibbs bolt action or double, than my 45-70 Gov't levergun. Still... nothing is quite as American

I thought we already agreed on this forum ...

NO 45/70 ON BUFF !!!

American or not ...Buff is African and he doesn't care .

I thought we already agreed ( numerous times ) on this forum ....

NO 45/70 ON BUFF !!!

American or not ...Buff is African and speaks another language

Funny that the thread on hunting cape buffalo with handguns didn't generate nearly the negative response this one (and the previous one) did. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the .454 Casull is huffing and puffing from a revolver, the .45/70 from a rifle is just hitting its stride. Maybe the buff is awed by the handgun hunter's extra bravery?

Shooting a buffalo with a handgun, muzzle-loader or an arrow should be left to the expert or to those with diminished capacity.....I think the use of a .45/70 just about fits into that category. If you feel you must do it, you should wear cowboy boots, spurs, a Stetson hat, roll your own cigarettes and drink your red-eye neat out of a dirty, chipped glass. Wahoo!

Fat Bastard,
I know several people who have taken buffalo, lion, and elephant with handguns; they are expert shots who accept the risk, acknowledge that their tool puts them at a distinct disadvantage, and accept the fact that their PH might have to save their lives.
Most of them had taken dangerous game with rifles before and were well aware of the dangers involved.

I think the difference with the .45-70 debate is that many, if not all, of the proponents of the .45-70 on buff have never actually hunted one. They appear to be basing their assumptions on a small body of anecdotal evidence, marketing claims, and the contents of gun rags.

George

But now we've got 2 different arguments:

1) Hunting buff with a handgun by an expert who knows its limitations is OK (the shot placement argument)

2) The .45/70 (i.e., 400 @ 1800) just isn't enough (the raw power argument)

So which is it? You can't deny that given equal expertise (or even equally lucky shot placement ), no handgun, even the "mighty" .454, can compare to the "anemic" .45/70.

By the way, DB Bill, who says I don't do those things?

[This message has been edited by Fat Bastard (edited 07-03-2001).]

Two important words out of GeorgeS post
DISTINCT DISADVANTAGE

FB,
You're absolutely correct. Most rifle cartridges exceed the power levels of any handgun (exceptions are some of the JDJ cartridge line in the Encore and Contender).

In the hands of an expert shot, the 7x57 slew lots of elephants (who knows how many were wounded and lost by people who thought they were experts?), but the 7x57 is not a proper elephant cartridge.
A .45-70 with proper loads in the hands of an expert shot will probably kill a buff, but that does not make the .45-70 a proper buffalo cartridge.

George

P.S. You got it, Smallfry!

As many of the black bulls as I've killed, I dearly love and respect him for his courage, his will to survive and his generally hatefull attitude towards every thing but grass and cow buffalo....He wakes every morning pissed of and his disposition deteriorates from there throughout the day.

I really hate to see this grand animal screwed with by folks playing games to satisfy some kind of a ego need to kill a Buffalo with a phono graph needle or a slow moving watermelon or whatever...Right or wrong thats the way I feel....I think he should be taken cleanly with a rifle of sufficient power to do so and one that is legal.....Like I said I love the old bulls.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

FatBastard....:0..:0..:0 Smile when you say that partner! I was!!

I told him to buy a .416, he wouldnt listen to me. His attitude is "its my money I'll hunt with what I want".

He's also not much of a shot. I really wish I could tape the hunt for him, while sitting in a tree!.........10

DB Bill - I can't smile. I've got tobacco stains on my tooth.

10point,

Well it's his choice to be dumb I guess, just hope his health and life insurance is paid up. He should at least have the decency to tell his PH. That way the PH can have a real gun standing by for when this moron (sorry) gut shoots the buff and it turns on him to give him a good stomping. I feel sorry for the buff, not the hunter. The buff doesn't get a say in the matter (well, at least not until after the shot!). I hope no one else gets hurt due to this guys rather stupid plan.

A few suggestions for our hero:
1. Get really really close
2. use win748 and a magnum primer to further scorch the beast.
3. Make sure his cowboy hat is on.
4. Stiff cowboy boots a must on this hunt.
Dipping/packing fees are substantially less for a human body.

Guys.....fun is fun but do any of you doubt that a 45/70, shooting the new Class 2 loads, would kill a buffalo. I don't! I've had people smirk at my Rem 600 .350 RemMag when I lived in Alaska and it laid everything I shot at on the ground including 2 brown bear. Would a .375 H&H or .458 (no one had .416s then) done better or quicker...maybe but I doubt it. Would a 45/70 be my first choice? No! I think there are better and more versatile choices but I believe it would do the job and be much less of a stunt than a bow & arrow, pistol or muzzle-loader and I've hunted deer successfully with all three. Instead of giving these guys grief let's just wish them good luck and go to it.

It is the same stunt.I think it is the worst stunt because a rifle hunter should know better.

ED GENTRY

I have read this thread and have been entertained with the posts, Heck that is the reason I vist, for entertainment!

I think there is a bit to much being made of this. Lets combine this thread with the other one by the same author(ten point) about the PH shooting game for the client.

When the two threads are dumped in a bucket and stirred up What we end up with is letting a hunter shoot any animal he wants with any gun and load he chooses as long as he accepts the responsible PH's duty to sort things out if the Hunter with his best effort does not make a good shot or use enough gun.

We have had several guys use 45/70's for Buffalo, not lever guns though. They were hot handloads in "Sharps" style rifles with long octagon barrels and 458 win mag bullets, not 45/70 bullets. Not a single Buffalo was a problem for this level of 45/70.

As I have stated before on this site most of the comments and posts here on this kind of topic go into the smallest details of hunting dangerous game, the guns, bullets, sights, scope, boots, field glasses and on and on.

This hunt will be a couple weeks out of your life and you will in every country have a dangerous game qualified PH right with you. Yet many of you(us) drive 70MPH on the highway every day and do not know the airpressure in our tires, wear our seatbelts, we talk on the cell phone, smoke cigerettes, drink coffee etc. etc. While driving

The danger of injury in your daily life is thousands of times more likely driving on our highways with all the distractions then the very short and mostly protected hunting you will do with an experienced and certified PH. I understand the "romance" and the excitement of Hunting Buffalo but my goodness the effort and concern over just the right gun or minimum ammunition is a very strange paradox to me when I see how people take far greater dangers in life so casually.jj

[This message has been edited by JJHACK (edited 07-04-2001).]

DB & JJ,

I appreciate both your points, but you are over looking important facts.

1. This guy can't shoot. In both of your examples this was not the case (I'm sure).

2. This guy is not using the same power level of loads as your example JJ. Big difference. Would you compare a 375 win to a 375 H & H? Same size hole in the muzzle but...

3. THIS GUY HAS NOT TOLD HIS PH HE'S BRINGING A SLINGSHOT. I think this is as important or more so than the other 2 points.

In my opinion this idea when looked at in the whole picture is borderline irresponsible. Pardon me if I give these guys some grief. It's just my opinions, and after all I will be the first to admit I have never hunted buff, or anything in africa. But when I do go (and I will), I will bring the right tool for the job.

Sometimes experience can be the worst of enemies, one becomes dulled to reality, over confident and perhaps foolish, been there done that and shot some big stuff with little rifles because thats all there was to shoot, I see a reflection of this in JJ's posts and in mine from time to time, I wonder if familuarity breeds contempt, I dunno...

Read Saeeds posts on C. Cotter, he died with a 405 in his hands after emptying all shoots properly into a Rhino...makes me think, he had a LOT of experience.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Big bore, Few guys can shoot under any level of pressure, even for a simple impala while anybody is there watching them. That problem so common it is accepted as normal in my business. Those clients who do shoot good are a rare gift. By far the majority must search for some solid rest before they will even consider shooting and by that time the game has usually moved away.

I was speaking in general terms not specific to this instance. The bigger problem is very few countreis will consider that gun legal. Sure it may meet the minimum bore diameter but it will not make the minimum FPE requirement that goes along with that law(often overlooked and rarely talked about)

In SA for instance it would be perfectly legal but not in Tanzania, Botswana, or Zimbabwe(I think zim?)

Any outfitter/ booking agent worth booking a hunt with will ask the question of the hunter or include information on minimum requirements. If that outfitter/agent does not then they are just as much at fault as the hunter for not explaining the minimum legal requirement.

Ray, I hope you are wrong because that is a huge underlying fear of mine, and has been much of my life starting with the big brownies in Alaska 20 years ago. I am grateful that you had the insight to post that but you are screwing with my mind now!jj

Well I dont post specifically to entertain, tho everyone I meet or talk to ends up laughing. I guess thats not a bad thing.

Hey is that .458" 405grn woodleigh FP a good bullet for the 45/70, or .450 Marlin ? I am not going to use a .450 Marlin on Buff, if I do decide to take a Buff next year my good friend JJ said he would let me use his .458 Lott. But I anticipate a bit of plains game stalking with the .450 M and am looking for the "perfect bullet".

Im leaning towards the heavier ones, tho I see no need for the expensive Swift's..ect, not at those velocities.thanx............10

Aw the 45-70 got to love them

My Marlin 45-70 (ex-factory)will group 3/4" any ol time, and if you get real serious it will shoot .6
I can shoot my 45-70 better than most people can handle a DGR. Soooo, let`s not siwash the gun that is only a little less powerful than a 458 mag with the right loads, until we take into account the ability of the shooter. If I were the PH, and the customer wanted to use a "non-traditional" weapon, he would be required to demonstrate it on something a bit less dangerous than a Buff, but then again, I probably would require ALL clients to prove their ability on game before shooting a Buff with ANYTHING.
I`ve spent years tracking wounded Elk and Bear due to other`s crappy shots(and mine twice), and it really sucks.
More power to the PH`s of the world for being able to put up with all the bozo`s that try to hunt Africa.

MIke,
I don't think shooter ability has anything to do with the 45-70 and Buffalo...Bullet failure and power failure is the demon that crops up from time to time....and that applies to the factory loaded 458 also...

JJ,
No brainer, you have obviously been taking such thoughts into consideration, as you just had a 458 Lott built, bloody good show!
saves wear and tear on new clothes and crotches...
I sure know a lot of PH's that have been tossed around by N'Yati, a lot of them....In fact I don't think any full time DG PH last a career without getting tossed a few times or at least clawed and bit.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Anybody know of people using those FMJ Cor-Bon Penetrators on Buff? Bought some for my Browning 78 and DAMN they hurt with a crescent butt plate!
I imagine these 400 grainers would eliminate both bullet and power failure as flaws in this rounds character.

JohnTheGreek

Ray Darling:
My point was that I would much rather be a PH for a good steady shooter with a 45/70 than a "Flinch-Weary trigger jerker" with a 500 Jeffry. The bullets for the 45/70 can be lacking for sure. Mine shoots the 300 grain Speer HP into one hole, but I would rather not do a buff with one unless the front sight was in his ear.
We`re headed west to Quinalt Friday to cull some Russian Boar. You oughtta pack yer arse out here and meet up with us. My hog dog is champing at the bit. He seen me checking the Marlin so he knows it`s fightin` time.
He`s gonna find out Boars ain`t coons....

It is just like the people shooting deer and elk with a 22mag.It could also be like O'BRIEN with the 17/222,17/220swift,17/06 hunting brown bear in alaska.It is just a stunt.They may tring to sell something I don't know. Who is worse a salesman or a show off.But the one thing we do know is they have no respect for themself or the buff.
Ed Gentry

For what its worth, Selous used a Gibbs-Metford single shot .450 Express that is very nearly identical in form, function and performance to a Ruger No. 1 in .45-70. With it he hunted everything, including elephants, for twenty years or so, using the 340 grain hollowpoint express bullet (to kill rhinos, hippos and lions that I know of), the 365 gr hardened "solid" lead bullet on buffalo and perhaps the 570 gr solid bullet on elephant.

Pondoro Taylor used the 365 gr bullet to kill elephant, rhino and buffalo and had no complaints ("the rifle did great work for me, and was a real killer"). Since the nitro expresses didn't even show up until the turn of the century I would venture to say that nearly all the buffalo ever hunted were killed with either a .450 or .500 blackpowder express.

None of that minimizes the remarkable increase in performance realized by substituting smokeless powder for black and using a steel jacketed solid of greater weight, but I think its far from accurate to call the .450 level of performance puny.

Harald,
Selous and his contemporaries hunted for weeks and months at a time; they were residents; and they were professional hunters with VAST experience. They used the guns that were the leading edge in power at that time; when a better round came along, they switched.
Their situation differs greatly from a rookie who intends to go to Africa for a week or two as a client with his .45-70 when better choices are available.

George

The rifles used by Selous became less powerful over time. He began with smoothbore 4 guage guns, switched to a 10 bore rifle, then used a .450 for most of his career, finally adopting the .303 as his principal arm in his later years, of which he stated that had he been so armed in the early years he would have killed three times the game.

All that said, I completely agree that skill accounts for 90% of the ability to take any animal, nor would I want it said that I was defending the hardheadedness of a reputedly poor shot who is bent on a course of action against all better judgment and advice (and unbeknownst to his PH). My only point was that a .45-70 is more representative of the true historical buffalo killer (in Africa as well as America) than the .450 Nitro, and a single shot more than a double, etc. etc. Its a far cry from using a .22 on a brown bear, which I agree is a a stunt and a foolhardy one at that. Heck, Ray likes to bust `em with his little 9.3 mm.

Since the topic of Selous and his rifles has come up in this discussion, I'm sure most of you have seen that there is an interesting article in this months Magnum on the subject. At least one rifle discussed in the article was, no doubt, underpowered. An example of this is provided by the story of an elephant he shot several times to put down (including an "insurance shot" to the head). He and his staff went hunting elsewhere with intentions of returning for the ivory later. Upon there return, the animal was just plain gone! This, obviously, speaks neither to the experience of Selous nor his shooting ability but to the maxim that one must "have enough gun".

That said, even if not as a DGR, I still like the 45-70.

JohnTheGreek

Yia sou, John.

Ahh, the locals probably stole the elephant! He should have used "The Club" and a LoJack unit

George

We are probaby under-rating the PH here.

When he sees what his client is carrying, hopefully he will:

1) Count to 10 while he "bites his tongue."

2) Come up with a plan.

3) Explain than he must shoot his bull in the spine (high spine shot), then kill him with shoulder, hip, heart, neck, and whatever else it takes to keep everyone safe.

4) Test his shooting ability prior to the hunt.

5) Kill the bull himself if necessary.

Seriously, any of us can adapt to using an inadequate modern rifle (30-06 with 220 gr FMJ), or a primitive rifle (450 BP express).

Its not pretty but known it can be done from my experience with american bison. I do not consider this humane hunting but the high spine shot is what Id take.

Andy

TEST

------------------
" When we say ATF the same way that we say 8-Track tapes, I'll be satisfied."