The original 45-70 became instantly obsolete when the 30-40 Krag was invented in 1892.

The current "souped up" 45-70s became obsolete in 1944 when the first modern 300 Magnum (Weatherby's)came on the scene, even though they hadn't been thought up yet. I fail to see anything that would recommend this inaccurate looping-trajectory cartridge.

And you are right. The 458 Magnum will run rings around any 45-70.

Some times I think it's a form of "reverse elitism" as many think only the wealthy can go to Africa and hunt.

I think it's their way of saying "I'm a good enough hunter/rifle shot to take my $450 lever-action in 45-70 and do anything you and your $20,000 double-rifle can do"

I'm always amazed at the those who claim they would go to Africa if they could only afford it and many time these are same fellows who have 3 different .308, a half-dozen 30-06's, 2 or 3 7mm RemMags, 7 or 8 different varmint rifles and go to Canada each year for white-tail and spend upward of $5K to freeze in a tree stand for a week to have an 80% chance at a 150-pt white-tail.....year after year after year.

Good post Allen, and DB. So true. Some just want answers and believe they have a newly discovered ballistic wonder of a combination. Magic, or how many answer when faced with opposing questions... "it just works". Gee what simplistic fortitude and wishfull thinking.



Not nessacarly related to income, as some are well off... but I do see several patterns in the saying..........

" you might be a Redneck if.........

your DGR is a Marlin Guide Gun"

For all the criticism that Saeed heaps upon George W. Bush, or "dumbya" as Saeed calls him, at least Mr. Bush has not attempted to hunt cape buffalo with a 45-70.

I'll look forward to 45/70 posters and all the shill venders that peddle that crap posting. Lets not forget the cast bullets that go along with 45/70 and Dangerous Game.



urdubob

On the top of my "not in a million years" list is the Airbus jetliner. I'll be damned if I will buy a seat on one those French airplanes! I heard SAA is going to an entire Airbus fleet,so I may eat those words, but not without some chili on 'em. When I go Buff hunting I am going to shoot one with a Marlin 45-70. I will also bring a Ruger .375 HH. I have forgotten how much fun lever action rifles are! Since I started shooting them again I don't think I will ever hunt without one. There is a few things in life that a man can be passionate about,if it's hunting in Africa with traditional calibers, I'll tip my hat to ya.

Is the .45/70 a traditional African hunting calibre? That is news to me. If you want to go traditional use the .577/.450 with just one shot to do the stuff.

Nitro,
I didn't mean to imply that I considered the 45-70 an african caliber. What I meant to imply is that only someone who is passionate about a subject would find fault in a person who violated his passion. Mine happens to be Boeing aircraft. I don't have a problem hunting buff with a 45-70, but I do have a problem with Airbus, a person who doesn't share my passion wouldn't give a wit about it.

There was a similar article posted a few months ago on a gent hunting the Big Fice with the same gun and some super-duper hardcast bullets. Not for me thnaks. What DID interest me was the companion article by Ross Seyfried on the 458 Win Mag. I have never been a fan of the cartridge myself, not based on experience, I just prefer other big bores. What did you learned folks that have used the caliber think about the article? jorge

I would like for the 45-70 crowd to stand 15 feet away from a cape buffalo bull staring at them and tell me that they are perfectly comfortable with the 45-70 and that not a bit more power would be desirable to dispatch buffalo at clsoe range .

Jim, I do not read any of the above posts as being critical of Mr. Pierce. They are just comments concerning use of the 45-70 on dangerous game (although it is probably ok on leopard and lion).

True, no one has criticized Brian Pearce directly. And it�s certainly fine to express one�s opinion on whether one believes that a .45-70 is suitable to use on heavy dangerous game.

My apologies to those who I�m quoting, not trying to comment on your general hunting experience and honestly not trying to single anyone out for personal attacks:

�I would like for the 45-70 crowd to stand 15 feet away from a cape buffalo bull staring at them and tell me that they are perfectly comfortable with the 45-70 and that not a bit more power would be desirable to dispatch buffalo at close range�

�It has proven itself on North American game, even the great bears. No amount of rhetoric will make the 45-70 into a dangerous game round for African game. It simply does not have the case capacity to handle bullets with enough SD @ anything like the right velocity to create the numbers that make it legal for the Big four.�

�I'll look forward to 45/70 posters and all the shill venders that peddle that crap posting.�

Did the article state anything about standing 15 feet away from a buffalo? Did it state specifically whether the .45-70 was suitable for dangerous game or not? The Big Four were never mentioned.

All I see are reactions to a title without one word discussing the actual content. I mean, one would think he wrote a recipe for cats in the PETA journal or advertised swastikas for sale in Jerusalem.

All I�m trying to say is, why don�t we discuss the article on its own merits, AFTER reading it thoroughly, instead of displaying an autonomous nervous reaction?

Okay, flame away � I�ll welcome comments addressing my subject matter directly and ignore any personal attacks � especially those that accuse me of being one of those idiots who would hunt elephant with a .45-70.

Please, folks � READ and comprehend, don�t just react.

I have read the article since my original posting. Mr. Pierce does mostly talk about using the .45-70 for Plains Game in most of the article. But he does mention Old M'Bogo several times. The end of the article does imply that there will be a Part 2 where he tells his tale of going after Cape Buff with the .45-70.

I have no problem with anyone using a .45-70 for Plains Game in Africa. The "hot" loads for the .45-70 basically duplicate the old .450 Nitro for Black Powder cartridge's ballistics (350gr at approx 2150fps). That's been a proven formula for a long time for deer and antelope. Mr. Pierce does use 400gr jacketed bullets in his .45-70 in the article. Jacketed solids and softs. Thank goodness he didn�t use the wondrous hard cast lead bullets or we would never hear the end of it here from the .45-70 �gang� once they discover the article!

The main point of my original posting was simply "Oh no, here we go again". Meaning that here's an article in a national magazine talking about using the .45-70 in Africa. I was trying to intimate that as soon as the .45-70 "gang" reads it, then they'll be back with all the amazing tales of how great the .45-70 is on dangerous game (especially Cape Buffalo). And then we will all have the �pleasure� of reading their stories all over again. I was really trying to say "Oh no, here we go again" in a joking manner.

-Bob F.

Jim in Idaho, I could very well be wrong, but I don't think it would be necessary to read any article about hunting African dangerous game with a 45-70, to know that a 45-70 is not a proper cartridge for Cape Buffalo, and Elephant. Not only is it illegal, because it can't come up to the proper numbers for size/energy. The Simple fact that something is illegal, seems to make no difference to some folks! Because a particular PH allows you to use it, still does not make it right, and because it has killed a couple Buffalo, does not make it a DGR, even if it were legal. Many, fairly large, game animals have been taken with .22 lr singleshot rifles, and I would bet if someone wrote an article about shooting deer with a .22 lr, the first thing out of every one of these guys would be "THAT IS ILLEGAL!"
You are right, however, people are prone to jump on an article because of the title, if that title insinuates doing something that is not considered to be a good idea,unethical, or illegal. I don't think that is a knee jerk reaction, when the subject "IS" unethical, Illegal, and certainly not a good idea!

I have used the 45-70 and the even better 45-90 on both deer and elk with soft nose bullets and hard cast bullets. The only good bullet I determined was the Hornady 350 gr. RN and it always reacted properly...Even at that I found both calibers lacking in true killing power...

As late as last year I observed two elk shot with the new Nosler bullets in Factory ammo in a 45-70 Ruger #1, if fact I filmed these two kills and they are pretty dismal and the bullet placement was excellent....Neither bull left a blood trail that as claimed by the 45-70 lovers, and the game lived and traveled a long ways with two shots in both of them and it the heart lung area...The hard cast bullet and the Hornady 350 gr. handloaded performs much better.

I think most of this hype on the old punkin roller is from folks who presume they are right or they are using one or two animals as the last word in what works, not by folks who have used it to a greater extent....

These guns were pretty popular in my youth and used by quite a few of the old timers, but the Krag and 06 pretty much turned the tide on them,,,,ever wonder why? Because they tried the Krag and 06 and the light went on...thats why.

Oh no, not again

Its strange how two people can use the same load and have differant results, but it seems to happen often.
Ray, I've used the same bullet, 350 Horn flatnose in a marlin 45/70 on two trips to Namibia now. i came away with the same impression both times, " this sure handles nice, and it sure kills well" Thats on everything includeing eland, no comment on the DG buisness. My hosts after trying it themselves cant figure out why the gunshops dont get them in stock, as they figured it was perfect for the northern bushveld country.

I read the Ross Seyfried article, "In Defiance of the 458 Winchester" and thought to myself, yeah that's exactly why I bought a 416 Rem mag. He really cut it to pieces!

Re: the Brian Pearce article, "the 45-70 in Africa," he took two rifles. One, a pre-64 Win model 70 in 300 H&H,(no game was taken with it) and in deciding on the other stated, "Somehow the thought came to me, ""Put your money where your mouth is.""" He is trying to justify taking it by using Cor-Bon's 405 grain flatnose Penetrator clocked at 1,793fps in the 22 inch Marlin 1895 barrel, saying, "I felt this was enough for any game that would be hunted in Africa." From the last sentence before 'to be continued', I assume he survived his choice of gun and ammo.

It's kinda like the 'who shot JR' cliffhanger.

TSJ,
How do you figure we had different results, I said the 350 gr. Hornady was the only good bullet I had used in the 45-70 or 45-90....

BTW the 350 gr. Hornady is a round nose bullet not a flat nose bullet, so what were you using???

Ray,
hornady makes the same bullet in a flatnose the last few years, it's a good one and I like flat better then roundnose in a heavy load for a tube magazine.
you said you found even that lacking in killing power, I on the otherhand found it outstanding.

A .45/70 certainly can kill buffalo. So can an arrow. Either way, if it's legal and if a good PH is there to assure safety and keep the animal from escaping, why not? Are there more effective ways... of course. Are most hunters disiplined and skilled enough to make sure they hit the buffalo in the proper place for maximum effectiveness with an arrow or a .45/70... Probably not. (A shoulder shot with a .45/70, I believe, IMHO, is ill advised because of the SD and velocity problems)(A broadhead MUST slip behind the shoulder to effectively kill a buff, requiring a shot within 25 yards, not to mention the 90# pull... again IMHO). So.. if you want to hunt harder, with the very probable chance that you will pass up shots with an arrow or .45/70 that you'd take with a Lott or .404, then have at it.



As to the .458 Win. Mag. article. After I read it, I got my .458 (which I had not taken from the safe in a few years) and shot it over a Chrony. 450 grain X bullets and solids clocked 2240+. That's with a 24" barrel and 1.5 grains below max listed loads according to Barnes #2. I find it hard to see what is the matter with that... There may be better stopping rifles for PH's, but considering recoil, cost of purchase, availability of ammo... must hunters won't be disappointed with the acquisition. I wonder when a .458 failed Ross?



A quick .458 story. I was in a camp in Burkina Faso when a visiting PH of 27 years experience, actually rented a .458 Win Mag, putting his .375 aside, when his hunter, somewhat unexpectedly, asked to try for a buffalo the next day. I guess he never read Ross' article.

I read both Seyfried's and Pearce's articles.

I found it interesting that, in Seyfried's view (which, BTW, I found just a wee bit condescending), on the one hand, the .458 Win. Mag. ain't good enough (i.e., it was a disappointment to the world and the .416s are much better), but, on the other hand, it's way too much gun (the "average" hunter should use a .375 because he can't handle the .458's recoil).

Then we have Mr. Pearce using a .45-70 on buffalo . . . adequate, yes--in the sense that it will kill eventually when enough bullets penetrate the vitals--but the question should be: Is it an intelligent choice? NO WAY! It's a stunt man's choice, and like all stunts it involves way too much risk to be intelligent.

BTW, did anyone see Scovill's article in the previous issue of Rifle where he took a buff in Botswana with an 1886 Winchester in .50-110 and cast bullets (as I recall, four or five of them were required)?

And these guys are doing what? Giving advice to prospective African dangerous game hunters? No. They are stunt men proving personal points and everyone should remember that.

Mrlexma:

Funny you mention Scovill's article. While in J'burg this summer, I spent part of an evening and the next morning with Scovill when he was on his way to Botswana (for the safari during which he killed the subject buffalo with a bunch of hard-cast bullets from his .50-110.)

We had a long discussion about how bullets kill, designs, velocity, accuracy. I really believe that Scovill thought that he would kill a buffalo with one shot from his rifle... just put a bullet through the vitals, have it run a hundred yards and it would be dead when you get there. At that time, I didn't try to disabuse him of his beliefs, because I'd never seen a buffalo take bullet after bullet, just soaking them up and still figuring out how to stomp your body to jelly. During the next week, I learned my own private lesson that buffalo don't always give up the ghost very easily. There is no physiological justification for it. It must just be a matter of will???

While Scovill is a good writer, an expert with iron sights, an experienced black powder cartridge guru, I'll bet he'll tell you that he underestimated the difficulty one often has taking a buff with one shot, that is, if it doesn't hit the brain or spine... sometimes the caliber doesn't seem to matter... But, and this is a big but, the "walking dead" buffalo, I'll bet, happens less often the more ummph of the projectile.

In a private conversation, I'll bet Scovill would say that big is good, but big and 2150 fps with lots of SD is even better.

Not to keep stirring the pot but......many buff have absorbed an amazing number of hits from some very large bore rifles before they expired .... not just hits along the edges, but solid hits into the vitals.

Having said that, I also think Scovill's hunt was a "stunt" as would a buff hunt using a lever-action 45-70.... but look how many people bought tickets last year for the opportunity to hunt buff with just such a rifle.

I would be more impressed (and this goes for the pistol shooters and those who use a stick and string) if, in order to use their weapon of choice, whom ever was backing them up had to use the same weapon.

What do you think?

Yo dude, at least Elmer had his Doubles in various calibers when he went for the big stuff.

They'd kill more Buffs with the 444Marlin and a good 300gr. LFNGC going 2250'/sec.
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