Mr. RMDNDNGRUS. . . . . sir. . . .

I myself am a huge fan of the .45-70, and own a few, and have had dozens of them. I also cast my own heavy bullets for this and other calibers and understand a bit about how they work. I also have done extensive testing of heavy cast bullets at different velocities. After all this I will say that I have no doubt the .45-70s with Garrets and other heavy cast will kill a dangerous African game animal 'Grave yard' dead! Three of my dear friends go to Africa and hunt dangerous game. One of those three goes a LOT, and has a true African game room with I think 70+ mounts. 7 are Cape Buffalo, and 1 a White Rhino. So I hear the tales of these hunts. Some are hair raising. Here's the deal. . . . These animals are extremely hard to stop IF the very first bullet does not take them down hard the first time. After that, they can soak up lot's of big, fast bullets before they hopefully stop trying to kill you. The 1,500 FPS .540 grain .45-70 bullets WILL penetrate like nothin' else. But there is not much in the way of hydro-shock until above about 2,000 FPS impact velocity is achieved. The added shock is what makes the faster rounds more effective for stopping a charge, as it helps to disrupt much more tissue and blood vessels. As much as I love my .45-70s, and YES, I have read all the stories about them in Africa; ( Brian Pierce, Mike Venturino, Lupo,) etc.; I want at least a .458 Lott when the %$@! hits the fan. I think the guys here would like to see pics of your safari as well, and just want you to have the best chance of returning with the pics. I'd like to see um! Good hunting.

RMDNDNGRUS,

Welcome to AR.

As I'm basically lazy whenever I can get away with it, and not overly creative the rest of the time, I find that cut-n-paste saves me a ton of keystrokes. FWIW, what follows is a post of mine addressing this subject from 12/18/07 and referencing an even earlier post of mine from '05. You asked for opinions from folks who've taken the .45-70 to Africa: I'm one.

From December '07:

First off: Congrats to corecpa; nice work!

I love these discussions...even used to get involved in them on occasion. FWIW, here's my spin on the embattled lever gun/.45-70 topic. Heck, I don't even have to write anything new as my old opinion still stands.

(from 2/21/05)

"Good afternoon all!

The lever gun question seems to surface every so often (particularly in reference to dangerous game), with similar feedback each time from two separate camps…

One camp hasn’t done it yet but thinks it’d be the new death-ray; the other camp hasn’t done it either but prophesies a slow painful death for any that attempt it.

I have done it once (in ’02; a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in…gasp!….45-70) so I feel that I can speak with some small measure of authority. I make no claims to be an expert, either expressed or implied…I’ll merely relate my own experience.

I carried that saddlegun over to Zim for one reason and one reason only; to hunt leopard with hounds. That type of hunt may present shots from 100 yards to tag-you’re-it distance on a fast moving spottie. A shotgun might get the nod up real close, but becomes useless as the range opens up. Conversely, your pet scoped rifle is a winner way out there, but dicey up close. I decided that a big levergun with a ghost ring heaving a big soft slug at moderate velocity would cover both scenarios and provide faster follow-up shots than any bolt gun I own.

I guess I “got away with it†because that spottie is on my wall. Sorry, no tales of him charging me after being wounded, nor shooting clear through the beast to slay a couple of lined-up buffalo on the far side either. Would’ve taken a warthog with it during the trip if circumstances had allowed, but the bride’s .270 was a better answer when an ungulube volunteered.

For this particular application the lever gun is (by my lights) the right tool for the job. For plains game, a bolt gun in the calibers you mention is a far better proposition. For the heavy stuff, well…that answer begins with the .375 and goes up from there. BTW, didn't Cottar cash in when a rhino took him to task for his choice of the Win 95/.405 combo? Hmmm, very instructive...

FWIW, "my" Marlin now belongs to a fellow Cowboy Action shooter, its job is done on the Dark Continent as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, them’s the cards I’m holding…good hunting to each of you!

Mark"

Flashback over; back to real time. As an aside (and before the '02 trip mentioned above) I had Jim Brockman build one of his super-modified Marlin .45-70s as a gift for my friend and Zim PH Mark Butcher of Matupula Hunters. This is his "go to" rig for chasing spotties w/ hounds. Funny though, despite my providing him with my own early version of the now-fashionable "blind, burn and deafen" .45-70 loads, Butch still reaches for his blue-worn M70 .458 when spotties aren't on the menu.

Professionals. Hmmmph, go figure...

That's just my studied opinion; your mileage may vary. An again, sincere congrats to corecpa for his pair of handsome beasts.

This concludes my broadcast day...

Mark

OK, second flashback over, back to January '08. Here's where I shake out (to this day): the Marlin's a dandy rifle...the .45-70 is a dandy cartridge (I still hunt regularly on this side of the pond w/ a No.1 so chambered)...but neither is the best choice for heavy, mean-spirited game. Can you get by with it? You bet. Hell, Papa Hemingway took the preponderance of his buff with the venerable .30-06/220 combo, so lots of things will kill a buffalo. Most of the time.

You mentioned reading Vince Lupo's exploits; so have I. Now, I never was very good at math, but I counted four charges out of the "big six" that he took (per his own account). For me, those ain't the kind of numbers that set me all acquiver with confidence. Thanks, but I'll pass...

Good luck to you in reaching Africa.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:
Most of the more experienced dangerous game hunters here on AR use and recommend the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads for the largest and meanest of game. The preferred rifle is a NEF Handi-Rifle single shot. I've also heard that it has a growing following, especially with the Garrett Hammerheads, amongst African PHs who favor it as a STOPPER for backing up their clients. The slower velocity of the 45-70 really improves penetration on big game. I personally think that Randy Garrett should start loading them down to about 600-800 fps which should really improve penetration even further. The only thing more effective than the Garrett 540gr Hammerhead on the really big stuff is a 12 ga pump loaded with buckshot.

The day my PH shows up with a $200.00 single shot .45-70 as a back up weapon will be the same day I get back on the plane and head for home. Whoever wrote this is a complete idiot.

I don't get it, and maybe somebody else brought this up and I passed over it, but if a guy can afford $15,000.00 for a Cape buff hunt, and that's a cheapie taking into consideration that it likely won't cover shipping, the charter if one is needed, and taxidermy, then why is one limited to a $500.00 rifle? You can still get a buff hunt in Zim for about ten grand, and an airline ticket costs around two or a bit more. Taking into consideration shots, medication, clothing, tips, hotels and sunscreen, fifteen grand is ballpark. As has been mentioned before, you can buy a .375 Ruger and top it with good Leupold glass for about 1300 bucks. That will kill any buff on the planet, if you can shoot it. If you can't shoot it, then stay home and live longer. Plus, it's legal and wont get the PH into trouble if you get stomped.

b/c that 1100 bucks is another year or two to someone that's been saving for a long time to go and................the 45/70 will make the energy limit in some countries........and in the end it'll kill buffalo as good as a 375 ruger any day of the week albeit at a more limited range.

In the end, its your PH that has the final answer to this debate. All the rest is procrastination ( aka masturbation) sounds like a good idea at first, but in the end, you end up FU@!KING yourself!

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:
Most of the more experienced dangerous game hunters here on AR use and recommend the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads for the largest and meanest of game. The preferred rifle is a NEF Handi-Rifle single shot. I've also heard that it has a growing following, especially with the Garrett Hammerheads, amongst African PHs who favor it as a STOPPER for backing up their clients. The slower velocity of the 45-70 really improves penetration on big game. I personally think that Randy Garrett should start loading them down to about 600-800 fps which should really improve penetration even further. The only thing more effective than the Garrett 540gr Hammerhead on the really big stuff is a 12 ga pump loaded with buckshot.

The day my PH shows up with a $200.00 single shot .45-70 as a back up weapon will be the same day I get back on the plane and head for home. Whoever wrote this is a complete idiot.

It's called irony.


irony n. 1. a. The use of words to convey the opposite of their literal meaning. b. An expression or utterance marked by such a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. c. A literary style employing ironic contrasts foor humorous or rhetorical effect.


Before you call me an idiot you would do well to go back and read the other two posts that I made to this thread.

Cheers,
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
b/c that 1100 bucks is another year or two to someone that's been saving for a long time to go and................the 45/70 will make the energy limit in some countries........and in the end it'll kill buffalo as good as a 375 ruger any day of the week albeit at a more limited range.

I'm actually an H&H fan myself and have used it successfully on buff. Hope to do it again in a couple of years. Point is, he mentioned price as a major factor, stating that most of us hunt with $3000.00+ rifles. Most do not, and a .375 H&H has killed hundreds of thousands of buffalo. I simply suggested the Ruger because it is relatively cheap compared, say to a Chapuis or a Heym. Fact is, if he wants to go try to hunt with a 45/70, he can do it with my blessings. If, however, somebody gets killed because of the marginal performance of that caliber as opposed to the proven track record of the .375's, then their death(s) will be on his head, just because he ignored some well informed opinions and advice.

Bell killed over a thousand elephants with a 7x57. Would I try it? Hell, no. A bunch of other guys tried it, so I've been told, and died because they screwed up.

Additionally, the 45/70 has been around a good bit longer than the .375 H&H. Logic then decrees that if the 45/70 were equal to the .375 in effectiveness in buffalo hunting, it would be the "go to" caliber reccommended for most clients starting out. Instead, it is illegal in most areas where buff are hunted.

As I mentioned in my other post, your responsibility on a DG hunt goes beyond just yourself. You have to consider the safety of the others. Hunting buff with a 45/70 is a stunt, and the guy obviously posted here with his mind made up, expecting to be positively reinforced by more experienced hunters. He hasn't been, so he became insistant. I'm tired of this thread, so I will raise the flag and choose another venue. I do not suffer fools gladly.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
RMDNDNGRUS,

Please feel free to go to Africa with the rifle and cartridges you named. No one here wants to stop you.

It's your time and your money; spend it however you wish.

George

I don't know why people just don't do their own thing. Why they always need to convince other people that they are right, or need others approval for their own actions. Just do it, instead of talking about it.

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:
Most of the more experienced dangerous game hunters here on AR use and recommend the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads for the largest and meanest of game. The preferred rifle is a NEF Handi-Rifle single shot. I've also heard that it has a growing following, especially with the Garrett Hammerheads, amongst African PHs who favor it as a STOPPER for backing up their clients. The slower velocity of the 45-70 really improves penetration on big game. I personally think that Randy Garrett should start loading them down to about 600-800 fps which should really improve penetration even further. The only thing more effective than the Garrett 540gr Hammerhead on the really big stuff is a 12 ga pump loaded with buckshot.

The day my PH shows up with a $200.00 single shot .45-70 as a back up weapon will be the same day I get back on the plane and head for home. Whoever wrote this is a complete idiot.

It's called irony.


irony n. 1. a. The use of words to convey the opposite of their literal meaning. b. An expression or utterance marked by such a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. c. A literary style employing ironic contrasts foor humorous or rhetorical effect.


Before you call me an idiot you would do well to go back and read the other two posts that I made to this thread.

Cheers,
Andy

My apologies.

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:
Most of the more experienced dangerous game hunters here on AR use and recommend the 45-70 with Garrett Hammerheads for the largest and meanest of game. The preferred rifle is a NEF Handi-Rifle single shot. I've also heard that it has a growing following, especially with the Garrett Hammerheads, amongst African PHs who favor it as a STOPPER for backing up their clients. The slower velocity of the 45-70 really improves penetration on big game. I personally think that Randy Garrett should start loading them down to about 600-800 fps which should really improve penetration even further. The only thing more effective than the Garrett 540gr Hammerhead on the really big stuff is a 12 ga pump loaded with buckshot.

The day my PH shows up with a $200.00 single shot .45-70 as a back up weapon will be the same day I get back on the plane and head for home. Whoever wrote this is a complete idiot.

It's called irony.


irony n. 1. a. The use of words to convey the opposite of their literal meaning. b. An expression or utterance marked by such a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. c. A literary style employing ironic contrasts foor humorous or rhetorical effect.


Before you call me an idiot you would do well to go back and read the other two posts that I made to this thread.

Cheers,
Andy

My apologies.

No problem. Many thanks .

Cheers,
Andy