He claims to still be in production. I have no idea what he is doing.

I wonder just how you think Jorge and I should modify our behavior?

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
I wonder just how you think Jorge and I should modify our behavior?

Do not pay in full, in advance?

paying in advance is a business practice not a behavior trait and anyway I only paid 50% up front.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
I wonder just how you think Jorge and I should modify our behavior?

I wasn't trying to say you should do anything. And in no way was this to be construed as criticism or a suggestion that you did anything wrong. But I would be surprised if you aren't less trusting and more careful in the future. It's a shame that a simple handshake and someone's word aren't good enough to be relied upon.

And how this experience may have modified Hein's behavior; I leave that up to others to ponder.
~

No worries........to me its more then a handshake as he met me face to face and lied repeatedly to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
paying in advance is a business practice not a behavior trait and anyway I only paid 50% up front.

For what it's worth, Howard, I probably would have gone about things the same way you did. I am fortunate to have learned something from your experience with Hein. But I am truly sorry that you and others have had to go through this first hand.

~

The end result is it will be harder for others to get started. Our experience here is a big reason established reputable people can get more money, they have the track record to prove they will deliver.

It is a catch 20 in many ways. The vendor is entitled to an upfront deposit for a "special order" in my opinion yet the customer is open to getting burned.

Howard

Is he (Hein) still in business?

He still has a web site.


http://www.rifleactions.com/

Yes he is still in business and once we sign the final agreement either Howard or myself will post, then for those interested, I'll post my thoughts and lessons learned, but here's just one lesson:
I WILL NEVER, EVER, BUY A RIFLE FROM A CUSTOM GUNMAKER AGAIN, unless of course the rifle's already finished and I can walk away with it. jorge

From Hein's website:

.....At Waffenfabrik Hein, no shortcuts are taken, and superior quality and customer satisfaction are the values that drive our organization.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I WILL NEVER, EVER, BUY A RIFLE FROM A CUSTOM GUNMAKER AGAIN

It's not fair to disparage all gunsmiths just because 99% of them are scoundrels.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I WILL NEVER, EVER, BUY A RIFLE FROM A CUSTOM GUNMAKER AGAIN

It's not fair to disparage all gunsmiths just because 99% of them are scoundrels.

What, they all went to law school?

forrest, That coon track is just hilarious.

quote:

Originally posted by wildboar:
From Hein's website:

.....At Waffenfabrik Hein, no shortcuts are taken, and superior quality and customer satisfaction are the values that drive our organization.

Yes, but what they don't say is just where they're driving it.

Date of first posting on this matter was shown to be 2/18/08 and today is 7/19/08 or some 5 months has passed and no resolution yet it would appear. Not sure just how many complaintants involved nor the juridiction the court action is to take place, but in my area it would not be uncommon for such action to involve as much as a couple years. Know that is not good news and hopefully would be quicker in your area.
However, even if judgement is ordered against the supposed offender, usually a deal will be struck with the court and lawyers to reach a settlement. (Add more time and attorney fees.) The 'smith involved may well counter with a time certain to deliver the goods and court will most likely "buy off" on that arrangement and then if the time certain is not met, harsher action could be taken and at a much speedier time frame. A lot depends on the load the courts are operating under and yes, unfortunately, the judge presiding over the case and his concept of time.
Conclusion to refuse to do business with a "custom 'smith" is probably a good one to follow unless the deal can be struck that the cards are stacked much in your favor in the event a similar situation arises. We have a "gunsmith" in our area that repeatedly has kept a simple blue job, scope/mount drill and tap job, etc. for two or more years or more and eventually the firearm owner will become irate and go after the guy and sure enough, few weeks the job is done and back to ground zero. Yes, people in the area still take work to him on a regular basis. Go figure!!

I'm sorry, but the smiths that I have dealt with on this forum have preformed as promised. In the last 4 years, David Christman has done 2 complete custom rifles and 1 redo of a 60's custom. Jim Kobe has done at least 4 small jobs for me in no more than 2 weeks. James Anderson has made a custom bottom metal and a half octagon barrel for me in probably no more than 3 months. I will be shipping a barreled action to him Monday for the full octagon treatment and a stock job. The work from all of these guys has been superb. I have a shotgun in the hands of Reto Buehler in Oregon at present. Duane Weibe has been very forth right with a lot of good advice on the rifle that I am attempting at present.Needless to say, I am a happy man.
Butch

Jorge, FWIW I'm a retired USAF Officer and my word is good; it's my work that isn't as good as I'd like it to be. But I do manage to sell and build a few custom rifles a year.

Gentlemen, please don't misunderstand. My new aversion to custom rifles is mostly due to the time factor (or lack thereof). What I've heard here for the most part is gunsmiths have NO CONCEPT OF TIME. jorge

Hope you get satisfaction, Jorge and Howard.
I learned that some "action makers" string their customers along for over 5 years without delivering anything despite 5-figure deposits.
These clowns are having a chilling effect and should be horse whipped.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I'm sorry, but the smiths that I have dealt with on this forum have preformed as promised. In the last 4 years, David Christman has done 2 complete custom rifles and 1 redo of a 60's custom. Jim Kobe has done at least 4 small jobs for me in no more than 2 weeks. James Anderson has made a custom bottom metal and a half octagon barrel for me in probably no more than 3 months. I will be shipping a barreled action to him Monday for the full octagon treatment and a stock job. The work from all of these guys has been superb. I have a shotgun in the hands of Reto Buehler in Oregon at present. Duane Weibe has been very forth right with a lot of good advice on the rifle that I am attempting at present.Needless to say, I am a happy man.
Butch

Ditto for Mark Penrod, a super nice nice guy and a man of his word. He's getting another of my rifles next week for a tune-up, check-in before my trip to Zambia in September.

I couldn't recommend Mark more highly.

Cheers,
Andy

I have nothing but praise for Mark Penrod and his work. He's done great work for me in the past and I would do so again. I just don't have the patience! jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Gentlemen, please don't misunderstand. My new aversion to custom rifles is mostly due to the time factor (or lack thereof). What I've heard here for the most part is gunsmiths have NO CONCEPT OF TIME. jorge

That may very well be true in some cases, but I have also heard a few Custom Riflesmiths tell me that many of their customers have no concept of the amount of time it takes to do good work, get parts, etc.

Which goes squarely to Howard's point, which is that folks have to have very good communication when they enter into a deal for a custom gun.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Gentlemen, please don't misunderstand. My new aversion to custom rifles is mostly due to the time factor (or lack thereof). What I've heard here for the most part is gunsmiths have NO CONCEPT OF TIME. jorge

That may very well be true in some cases, but I have also heard a few Custom Riflesmiths tell me that many of their customers have no concept of the amount of time it takes to do good work, get parts, etc.

Which goes squarely to Howard's point, which is that folks have to have very good communication when they enter into a deal for a custom gun.

When a man says "12 months to do the job" the CUSTOMER doesn't NEED to know all that.. the EXPERT should take that into consideration and give good estimates.

In other words, all the "no concept" stuff isnt' the customer's issue, its the GUNSMITH's to know and to quote time. And if he makes a mistake in that quote, he needs to own it, communicate it, and revise his business model.

j

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Gentlemen, please don't misunderstand. My new aversion to custom rifles is mostly due to the time factor (or lack thereof). What I've heard here for the most part is gunsmiths have NO CONCEPT OF TIME. jorge

That may very well be true in some cases, but I have also heard a few Custom Riflesmiths tell me that many of their customers have no concept of the amount of time it takes to do good work, get parts, etc.

Which goes squarely to Howard's point, which is that folks have to have very good communication when they enter into a deal for a custom gun.

When a man says "12 months to do the job" the CUSTOMER doesn't NEED to know all that.. the EXPERT should take that into consideration and give good estimates.

In other words, all the "no concept" stuff isnt' the customer's issue, its the GUNSMITH's to know and to quote time. And if he makes a mistake in that quote, he needs to own it, communicate it, and revise his business model.

j

+1,000

For simple things like installing a new barrel or re-cutting a crown I've been told anywhere from 2 weeks to a month and have never gotten anything in less that 4 months.

For a complete blueprint and barrel install, etc. I always get told 2 months and never see them for 6 months.

I realize that things come up and work times vary, just let me know when it changes.

I have not built a custom rifle. However, my one experience with a "not local" gunsmith/expert was with Hill Country Rifles on an accurizing job. They said 12 weeks and I had the gun in 12 weeks.

I am not in the service business, but use service companies all the time. I expect things to built or delivered on schedule and perfect as per the pre-construction agreement and contract. I would think custom gun building should be the same way.

quote:

And if he makes a mistake in that quote, he needs to own it, communicate it, and revise his business model.

I would agree 100%. But I also think there needs to be leeway on the customer side of things as well. Not leeway such as Howard and Jorge have had to go through, not even close, but things do happen beyond the Smith's control, and as long as that is communicated in a fairly prompt fashion it should be respected.

"That's all fine Natasha but what does any of this have to do with moose and squirrel?"

Terry

Perhaps that you can't shoot a moose or a squirrel unless you own a custom gun. And you can't get a custom gun unless you communicate with a custom gun builder.

By the way, any updated photos on the Custom Mexican Small ring progress?

No, David said he wouldn't be able to start until late Fall when I sent it to him. He called the other day and said things were going ahead of schedule (imagine that!) He already had the barrel re-bored and was getting ready to start on the bridges. We had a long powow and changed a few things on the work order and he said things would start very soon.

Terry

22WRF,
David Christman shipped my Mexican double square bridge today. Now as to time. He thought that he could do it in a year and a half. It took 2 years. His wife was gravely ill for a few months, we had to wait on wood from overseas that I provided and we had to send out the barrel for half octagon. James Anderson got the barrel back promptly. We also had to fight a lost receiver at the heat treat facility. David kept me up to date in all areas.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Gentlemen, please don't misunderstand. My new aversion to custom rifles is mostly due to the time factor (or lack thereof). What I've heard here for the most part is gunsmiths have NO CONCEPT OF TIME. jorge

That may very well be true in some cases, but I have also heard a few Custom Riflesmiths tell me that many of their customers have no concept of the amount of time it takes to do good work, get parts, etc.

Which goes squarely to Howard's point, which is that folks have to have very good communication when they enter into a deal for a custom gun.

Totally friggin' irrelevant. If a customer has no clue, it is the job of the gunsmith to explain that making guns take time and delays are commonplace. Then the customer makes the decision as to whether he can live with the timeline (or lack thereof). What the gunsmith cannot do, is lie, obfuscate.jorge

Geez, every one knows, "It is always Moose and Squirrel."

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
22WRF,
David Christman shipped my Mexican double square bridge today. Now as to time. He thought that he could do it in a year and a half. It took 2 years. His wife was gravely ill for a few months, we had to wait on wood from overseas that I provided and we had to send out the barrel for half octagon. James Anderson got the barrel back promptly. We also had to fight a lost receiver at the heat treat facility. David kept me up to date in all areas.
Butch

A perfect example of what I was talking about.
Things happened, and the guy was honest enough to keep you informed so you stayed in the game and got what you wanted, albeit a bit late.

Start a new thread and show us some photos.

None of what is posted on page 12 has anything to do with the original thread.

Jorge and I have a signed agreement in place whereby Hein agrees to pay us in full including principle, interest and attorney fees by October 15, 2008.

Congratulations on a fine victory!

Congratulations, now let this evil thread die.

Terry

Spanked that Heinie!

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Congratulations, now let this evil thread die.

Terry

Why is it evil? I think it served a useful purpose in enlightening forumites as to the pitfalls of unscrupulous, lying & coniving crooks posing asgunmakers.
Howard and I gave this shithead every opportunity and latitude in order to facilitate whatever "growing pains" his business was going through. In fact, i made the concious decision to pay him more than the 50% in order to help his cash flow.

In fact, I was prepared to pay him IN FULL before delivery and it was thanks to a similar thread about Hein's failure to deliver that gave me pause. It was then that I posted this thread and titled it accordingly. I kept records and logs of over one hundred phone calls & emails he failed to answer. Finally, the only way this thread's going to end is when Howard and myself have a certified check in our hands and not a second before. Now anybody want to take bets if he pays at all or waits until 15 October to pay up? jorge

I wouldn't start dancing in the streets until October 15!

To each his own and I'll leave it at that.

Terry