Nothing yet folks, I suspect the season will slow things up a bit. jorge

BTT to keep this in focus.

jorge,I hope you get your rifle.I'll be waiting for your hunt report.Hope to see a BIG LEOPARD.

BTT.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
jorge,I hope you get your rifle.I'll be waiting for your hunt report.Hope to see a BIG LEOPARD.

I'll never get that rifle. Hein had no intention of delivering it. He runs a pyramid scheme to fleece folks out of their money, and on occasion, delivering a rifle just to stay legal. All I want now is my money back and ensure enough folks know about it so he doesn't cheat anybody else. jorge

Do you still have that Win mod 70 375H&H special edition? That looks like a very nice rifle.

Sold one kept one...jorge

BTT

Allen

Keeping it in the front page.

BTT.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I am curious here as I received a complete Hein 404 Jeffery rifle and have written a very favorable review for Rifle magazine on the quality of the Hein action and the rifle.
I also know Dave Caboth, who works for Greg. When he worked in Alaska I had a lot of experience with him and, from all of my experience, as well as many others in Alaska, he is a superb gunbuilder who was also unusually fast at completing jobs.
I have talked with Greg at length many times and know he is busy - most likely over his head with work and the debt of new equipment - but he does not strike me as a crook. Hopefully I am not mistaken.
I do know of at least one custom gunbuilder who has received a completed single shot action that he ordered and is very pleased with it.

Hein obviously seems to be experiencing major troubles and hopefully everyone who has deposits with him will eventually either receive their actions or a satisfactory response from Greg.

Why does Phil Shoemaker continue to "pimp" Greg Hein???
In the January 2009 issue of Rifle magazine he wrote on page 86 "have also placed an order with Hein for one of its premeir actions built for the .375 Ruger cartridge".

This really pisses me off, because in 2007 I met Phil Shoemaker in Reno at the SCI show. I really liked him and even planned to book a bear hunt with him in Alaska. In addition, I really enjoy his articles.

But, I can't stand the fact that he continues to "pimp" (free advertizement) Greg Hein, knowing that Hein has ripped his customers off.

How do I know, because I have skin in the game. In fact, this is how I got "hoodwinked" into ordering a Hein rifle in the first place, by bullshit endorsements of his products.

To keep this active, we could play a version of "Survivor" and vote some posters (didn't want to call them contributors) off the thread

My candidates would be (in no particular order):

458WIN
22WRF
FLACO
CARLOSTHEJACKAL
TC1

What say you?

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
Why does Phil Shoemaker continue to "pimp" Greg Hein???
In the January 2009 issue of Rifle magazine he wrote on page 86 "have also placed an order with Hein for one of its premeir actions built for the .375 Ruger cartridge".

This really pisses me off, because in 2007 I met Phil Shoemaker in Reno at the SCI show. I really liked him and even planned to book a bear hunt with him in Alaska. In addition, I really enjoy his articles.

But, I can't stand the fact that he continues to "pimp" (free advertizement) Greg Hein, knowing that Hein has ripped his customers off.

How do I know, because I have skin in the game. In fact, this is how I got "hoodwinked" into ordering a Hein rifle in the first place, by bullshit endorsements of his products.

If indeed true, I don't know when the article was actually written and submitted for publishing, it is very disappointing.

Disappointing that someone who is well thought of and respected does continue to promote Hein.

Don't forget that Greg Hein's failures to perform are documented not only here in the highly questionable court of public opinion but in written agreements with his signature on them. His issues with, at least some, of his customers are not a - he said she said - dispute but an admitted failure to perform.

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
this is how I got "hoodwinked" into ordering a Hein rifle in the first place, by bullshit endorsements of his products.

Me too and in hindsight it appears I got hookwinked by the potential of his product without adequate consideration of the lack of existence of his product.

And gunwriters wonder why we call them whores! Not every gunwriter of today is a whore, but I do think a solid majority of them are. Give them something and they will faithfully toe the party line.

I have been staying out of this thread after my blanks were returned and I had no more skin in this game, but this is just too much. Phil is well aware of how many people Greg Hein has screwed, and what does he do? He argues with the "screwees" in this thread and continues to speak positively of Greg in print. I would LOVE to see the receipt for any of his rifles. Or a receipt for any other hunting gear or guns he has gotten in the last few years for that matter.

Oh, I just thought of something better. I sure do hope he paid a deposit like the rest of population, and then he screwed by Greg, too! I can dream for poetic justice, but seriously doubt it will happen.

I am sorry if this sounds too harsh, but I just cannot believe Phil basically flips all of us off and tells us to go screw ourselves. It really chaps my ass. He writes an article that can cause even more people to get screwed by Greg. A lot of people love his articles and is influential. Hell, he has influenced ME in the past!

And a terrible admission on my part here-I have not read the article and have no proof he actually spoke well of Hein. It is my policy to have my ducks in a row before making a statement like this, but I stopped taking all three of the Wolfe magazines. Ironically, I let the subscriptions lapse because I felt like the writing had diminished to the point where much of it sounded like sponsor’s ad copy to me.

In an effort to keep this thread going, is Mr. Hein still in business, taking orders/deposits, delivering rifles to anyone, say, over the past year or so?? Does anyone know how many rifles he has produced and delivered in the past?? Has anyone actually spoken with him regarding building a rifle or has he closed shop?? Had given some thought to ordering one some few years ago, but heard some rumors about unbelievable delivery and went the RSM route instead,thankfuly, but have there been any reports regarding quality from those who actually received a Hein rifle?? Past performance is generally a good forecast of future performance in most activities.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Abob - Differences of opinion are essential to lively discussion. A voting game of "Survivor" in the forums would have the same result that you get on the TV show. All you would achieve is a forum with one member.

~

Grenadier, an attempt at humor and my way of pointing out those postings that I had a "differences of opinion" with after reading the thread, also thought it was a way to keep the thread on top of the page other than a bump sign, didn't expect anyone to take it seriously (but you must admit, it might be fun)

Your screen name & pic id lead me to believe you have a military connection - SF?

A Liberal Bear, waiting for a hand out

Posted by an idiot:

quote:

To keep this active, we could play a version of "Survivor" and vote some posters (didn't want to call them contributors) off the thread

My candidates would be (in no particular order):

458WIN
22WRF
FLACO
CARLOSTHEJACKAL
TC1

What say you?

fur, feathers, & meat in the freezer
"Pass it on to your kids"

Well Abob, your post just proves my point. It's all just a game to you isn't it? I happen to know some of these folks personally that lost thier money and I've NEVER wished them anything but the best. Never once did I say anything in Heins defense!

quote:

Why does a thread like this become so popular here on AR? The short and simple answer is misery loves company. It's the same reason people can't help but look at a bad car wreak on the interstate. They love to read this crap and think to themselves "at least I'm not him." Do you think these people that gave 13 pages of replies give a shit about you or your problems? Think again, most of the replies come from people that would otherwise never contribute anything.

I remember when this place celebrated peoples achievements now it just seems a lot of people get excited when someone fails. It sure seems to get more attention anyway.

17 pages now and nothing has changed my mind yet. I agree the situation needed to be brought up and it has been. It's archieved for anyone that wants to see it.

I will continue to say what I think and could care less what a jackass like you thinks about it. Play your game, I don't care.

Terry

I got your back Terry!
Butch

Thanks Butch.

Terry

I've been (still am) deep in the heart of Texas on a hunt. The Shoemaker issue really disappoints me. Love and learn I guess. The next step is to haul him into court and depose him under oath as to why he refused to own up to the judgment he agreed to, then we can start to garnish. THe little fucker's a weasel. He's moving his bank accounts around so we can't garnish. Say, here's a great opportunity for you Hein fans to do the right thing; PM either me or Howard and let us know to what back you've been sending money to him. jorge

It appears I have been thrown under the bus with Mr Hein but, like some of you, I too believed him to be an honest gun builder. If my writings and opinions caused anyone to loose money with Mr Hein I do apologize. Once this thread started I pulled the feature I had submitted to Rifle magazine on Hein until the issue had been resolved. The current article in Rifle magazine, where I simply mention the Hein action, was also submitted over 17 months ago.

As for Mr Stokeld accusations of me being an industry whore he is 100% wrong. I make my living guiding and write only as a sideline in order to hopefully counter balance some of the real industry shills. Other than receiving a Hein rifle on temporary loan in order to write about it I received nothing from Mr Hein. I also suggest he actually read my writing before criticizing them.

No need to vote me off the thread however as I'll happily leave it to the rest of you survivors.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
No need to vote me off the thread however as I'll happily leave it to the rest of you survivors.

No need to do that. I think most of us can see the reasonableness of the magazine article time line.

I would just ask that you or anyone else in contact with Hein attempt to get a straight answer from him.

quote:

If my writings and opinions caused anyone to loose money with Mr Hein I do apologize. Once this thread started I pulled the feature I had submitted to Rifle magazine on Hein until the issue had been resolved. The current article in Rifle magazine, where I simply mention the Hein action, was also submitted over 17 months ago.

I think this speaks well of Mr. Shoemaker. He is now out + - $400(lost by not selling the article). So we can add one mor to the list of people who are out of money in this mess.

Jason

Phil: I perfectly understand and accept your explanation. Thanks for the update. On a separate issue, I guess I have no PM from the Hein defenders offering up banking info...jorge

Phil-

Are trying to tell us that in 17 months you could not correct something that was so obviously untrue? Seventeen months ago this article hit you editor’s inbox that was it, period, I had to go in the magazine as-is, no questions asked? I find that hard to believe.

Yet you find the need to pull an article that was on Mr. Hein and his rifles-if he is someone you trust, then why pull only half of the articles? If you were a man of conviction, then
Half of you is burdened and half of you is feeling in the right. Are you just flipping half of us off?

Every gunmaker I know of has had rough patches and things did not proceed as was expected from the earliest agreement with the client. Mr. Hein has gone far beyond that. It has gotten to the point where many fair minded men would find his actions criminal. Is that why you pulled the first article?

You are far more influential than any of the others posters in this thread, so your endorsement means far more than it means for the rest of us. You have a much higher platform from which to speak. Additionally, you are in well known, mainstream gun and hunting publications. What you say carries weight. As I mentioned in the post above, you have influenced on ME after reading your articles. Your endorsement of vendors, whether it be gun, guides, hunting equipment, etc. is worth it weight in gold to people in the trades. You and I have emailed in the past and I immensely enjoyed it. I enjoyed meeting your son a couple of years ago. What you say really matters, where the rest of us are doing well if we influence a dozen folks.

What you say impacts people’s lives by helping them decide what to buy and from whom to buy. I sure don’t want to see more people get screwed by Mr. Hein. That is serious money for most of the folks who would buy from Hein, and just losing it all is a bitter pill for them to swallow. It will turn some people away from custom guns for the rest of lives. They lose all of their disposable income and all of those hours they worked themselves in the ground to get the overtime money is not just pissed away. That is time out of their lives that cannot be gotten back. They wasted a fair chunk of their life by sending their money to a cheat. That time can never be returned.

How about this-let’s look at it as if it were in your world. What if you knew a Alaskan guide who provided 5 good hunts several years ago. This guide bought an existing guiding operation and the previous owner stayed on with him for the first 5 hunts the next year. The quality of the hunt and animals were top shelf and the clients were all smiles. The next year the previous owner was not involved at all with the operation. Our fair guide booked 5 hunts, but he only actually guided 4 hunters. One hunter was ill and never left the base camp. The next year he gambles on two hunters getting sick, so he took all of their money before the season. He collected money as if he would actually guide all five once the season got cranked up.

That fall, one hunter did get sick, but the final hunter showed up in the peak of his fitness. This guy had worked 10-20 hours of overtime each week for the past four years. He grew up a man of modest means and had worked very, very hard to afford this hunt, he showed up in the best shape of his life, only to find the guide missing. No one could locate the guide at all. I mean it was like he disappeared from the face of the planet. Our hunter had spent every penny he saved up over the past four years. The money was gone and he could not even talk to the guide about it because the guide was gone!

The next year the guide collected full fees for seven hunters. He did not guide a single person that fall. He did not even go hunting himself that year. He is able to book more hunters because a guy was writing about how great our MIA guide is based solely on a hunt that which occurred five years ago. This writer is known as an expert hunter and shooter, as well as a man of fine, upstanding character. The next year our guide books 9 hunters due in part of the “free” advertising writer is giving him in the national magazines. He only gets deposits now and not the full amount, so he has to book more hunters every year.

This guide is just gone out of thin air. None of the screwed hunters can find him. The law gets involved and they find him and serve him with papers. The hunters hire an attorney and they ask the guide to make good on the hunts. The guide agrees to honor his commitments in front of the judge. His breaks every agreement he made in court. His is just disappearing again. Once again, the writer writes an article in a major national magazine talking about how he is going to book a hunt with this guide for himself. Wow, the writer puts his own money where is mouth is, so the guide has to be great! He is even “more great” then we thought before because this writer is mentioning him in multiple articles over the period of several years.

Other hunters that have saved for years to go on a once in a lifetime hunt and they send in their deposits and hear from the guide glowing reports of game forecasts in areas they will be hunting. They all get screwed as well and the guide goes underground again. Their money they have saved for years has disappeared with the guide. These hunters can never get back the time of their lives and they cannot get the money. LARGE portions of their lives have been totally wasted and they have nothing to show for.

So tell me Phil, should the writer keep keep promoting the guide? The writer knows the truth and both sides of the story. He continue to watch more people send in their deposits on their guiding fees? What do you think he should do now?

Several hunting sites have "avoid this guide" sections, or at least lengthy threads. Should the people who go tscrewed on a hunt just keep their mouths shut? Would you proudly declae this guy as a fellow guide and a fine upstanding citizen? Or would be embarrassed by what he has done in the name of your profession?

I can write the same situation basically with “writer” in every situation above there it says “guide.” If I wrote a similar tale where a fellow writer was screwing people, should Writer A promote Writer B knowing full well the B was screwing people out of money and disappearing?

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
And gunwriters wonder why we call them whores! Not every gunwriter of today is a whore, but I do think a solid majority of them are. Give them something and they will faithfully toe the party line.

I have been staying out of this thread after my blanks were returned and I had no more skin in this game, but this is just too much. Phil is well aware of how many people Greg Hein has screwed, and what does he do? He argues with the "screwees" in this thread and continues to speak positively of Greg in print. I would LOVE to see the receipt for any of his rifles. Or a receipt for any other hunting gear or guns he has gotten in the last few years for that matter.

Oh, I just thought of something better. I sure do hope he paid a deposit like the rest of population, and then he screwed by Greg, too! I can dream for poetic justice, but seriously doubt it will happen.

I am sorry if this sounds too harsh, but I just cannot believe Phil basically flips all of us off and tells us to go screw ourselves. It really chaps my ass. He writes an article that can cause even more people to get screwed by Greg. A lot of people love his articles and is influential. Hell, he has influenced ME in the past!

And a terrible admission on my part here-I have not read the article and have no proof he actually spoke well of Hein. It is my policy to have my ducks in a row before making a statement like this, but I stopped taking all three of the Wolfe magazines. Ironically, I let the subscriptions lapse because I felt like the writing had diminished to the point where much of it sounded like sponsor’s ad copy to me.

I believe Phil set the record clear regarding this article and his mention of Hein. Regarding the comment of gun writers being industry whores, well I believe if anyone takes the time to read any of Phils articles it can be seen that he is definitely not a whore to anyone. I see Phil as one of the most honest and straight forward writers in the industry. He is a down to earth guy who tells it like it is. I have seen him all but flame certain prominent gun makers over their POS rifles knowing that these same makers advertise in the very magazine the article was written for. Case in point is the very article in questions here were Phil talks about Leopold’s fancy new line of scopes breaking while in use. If he were a true whore this issue would have been conveniently left out as not to offend a major advertiser. I think it speaks volumes for not only Phil’s honesty, but also of the publisher to allow candid facts to be printed. It is my belief that if more writers were honest with the readers and not fail to call a spade a spade, then all of us would benefit as manufactures would fix issues that we all know exist.

George I applaud your tenacity to stay with this through the end. I am confident that in the end you will prevail and l look forward to celebrating your triumph over Mr. Hein.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
It appears I have been thrown under the bus with Mr Hein but, like some of you, I too believed him to be an honest gun builder. If my writings and opinions caused anyone to loose money with Mr Hein I do apologize. Once this thread started I pulled the feature I had submitted to Rifle magazine on Hein until the issue had been resolved. The current article in Rifle magazine, where I simply mention the Hein action, was also submitted over 17 months ago.

As for Mr Stokeld accusations of me being an industry whore he is 100% wrong. I make my living guiding and write only as a sideline in order to hopefully counter balance some of the real industry shills. Other than receiving a Hein rifle on temporary loan in order to write about it I received nothing from Mr Hein. I also suggest he actually read my writing before criticizing them.

No need to vote me off the thread however as I'll happily leave it to the rest of you survivors.

Phil,

I don't want you to leave this thread, personally I liked you from the first minute I met you in Reno and I really enjoy your writing style. I hate calling you out, but you have to either realize or remember that you have a responsibilty to your readers, by continuing your one-sided endorsement of Hein products, you are leading more un-knowing sheep to the shearer. If you want to endorse Hein fine, but tell the whole story, so the potential customer can weigh the risks and make an informed decision with putting their hard earned dollars there.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
It appears I have been thrown under the bus with Mr Hein...

Phil, you got it exactly backwards - it was Greg Hein who threw his would-be customers under the bus. Hein has stolen money and parts from me and several of my friends. If you want to base your influential opinion of Hein on the mere fact that he loaned you a rifle, then fine but you probably should have included a note that you are also aware that DOZENS of other folks have been blatantly ripped-off. If you had any sense of integrity at all, you'd have the editor include a note to this effect in the next issue.

A very big +1 for ForrestB. Now seems the time to have a nice full page editorial describing exactly what is going on with Hein. And if Phil has any way to contact him, give him a chance to respond. If he is given that chance, that means we are not stooping down to his level.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I've been (still am) deep in the heart of Texas on a hunt. The Shoemaker issue really disappoints me. Love and learn I guess. The next step is to haul him into court and depose him under oath as to why he refused to own up to the judgment he agreed to, then we can start to garnish. THe little fucker's a weasel. He's moving his bank accounts around so we can't garnish. Say, here's a great opportunity for you Hein fans to do the right thing; PM either me or Howard and let us know to what back you've been sending money to him. jorge

Jorge, you misspelled bank in the post as "back" so some of the intellectually challenged people (Hein supporters) on here may not have understood what you meant.

BTW, he can move banks but his machinery and house are still in the same place.

Marc, What article are you referring to where I plug Hein? the only recent article I know of where I even mention Hein is in the 375 Ruger article in the current Rifle magazine and all I did was mention his name!! As I said, I submitted it and it was sitting on Dave Scovill's desk for 17 months - which is before most of this Hein fiasco developed. I did submit a feature on Hein but once all this came to light I called Dave and asked that the feature be pulled until things were resolved. I don't know what else I could do. If Greg Hein is a crook I was as fooled as the rest of you.

How that came to being is an interesting story.
Dave Caboth was a Wasilla, Ak gunsmith who I had used for years. Besides being very talented he was fast. if he told you a rifle would be done in a week it was usually ready in two days. he could repair two Mossbergs and three Savages in the morning and be building a Guild quality Hagn single shot in the afternoon. Dave used to teach at Trinidad school of gunsmithing So when he told me that one of his students was making actions and that he had agreed to spend two years helping him get started I was interested.
Greg Hein had purchased the old Noreen works but both he and Dave said they could not use the old actions as the were not concentric and required too much work. On the Hein actions everything was measured from centerline and square. The actions Dave and Greg showed me were superbly built and finished. So was the 404 Jeffery that Dave restocked and sent me on loan and that I wrote about.
Since that time I have talked to Greg a number of times and he assures me he is still trying to catch up on orders - although I believe all of you and sympathize with you.
Dave has since left - after giving the two years he agreed upon. He did design the Hein single shot - which is a nice action for any of you lucky enough to have received one.

Greg did do great work - which is all I reported on. obviously he was a poor businessman - at best - but, being the optimist that I am, I still hope he will eventually honor his promises. His actions were and are superbly built.



In order to

Shows there is a good market for a quality product.

Plus a need for good customer relations and followup.

Greg Hein was a sweet talker when I met him in Milwaukee at the NRA convention there. He did show me some really nice guns that he ahd made and almost convinced me to place an order with him. I guess I was lucky to have delayed a decision, something that several perfect gentlemen on this forum unfortunately did not do, because they trusted in Hein. The fact that these people - and everyone of them has alwyas been polite and helpful to a fault to complete strangers in discussions on AR whenever anyone has had any question or advice to ask for - got swindled by Hein only goes to show what a scumbag Hein is. Greg Hein is the moral equivalent of someone who steals from a church's collection box, the lowest of the low in his attempt at swindling some very good people here.

I hope that he gets what he deserves for causing so much anguish to people whose only fault was to trust him to deliver guns that they ordered with him and paid for in advance.

quote:

Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
I hope that he gets what he deserves for causing so much anguish to people whose only fault was to trust him to deliver guns that they ordered with him and paid for in advance.

And were more then willing to give him time to deliver the product. It was only when the lies, untruths, and disappearing acts started that people gave up.

Mehul, he was at the NRA convention with a booth? I'd like to know. Thanks, jorge

Jorge,

Yes, Hein had a booth at the NRA's Milwaukee convention. That is where I met him and Karl Webber after they invited me to stop by at their booth. They had several rifles there at the time including some that they had made for an AR member whom I met at the booth, but who hasn't posted much here since then. If I remember right, that member's log in name was JJS.

Hope everything works out for you and everyone who has been ripped off by this thief.

quote:

Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
Jorge,

Yes, Hein had a booth at the NRA's Milwaukee convention. That is where I met him and Karl Webber after they invited me to stop by at their booth. They had several rifles there at the time including some that they had made for an AR member whom I met at the booth, but who hasn't posted much here since then. If I remember right, that member's log in name was JJS.

Hope everything works out for you and everyone who has been ripped off by this thief.

That's been a couple of years ago and I know JJS personally. He never got a rifle from Hein. He's in the same situation as the rest of you.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
That's been a couple of years ago and I know JJS personally. He never got a rifle from Hein. He's in the same situation as the rest of you.

Terry

Good grief has ANYONE got a rifle from Hein. I mean really got one not just some "I heard a friend of a friend got his and loves it"?

I know Phil Shoemaker got a demo model. I seem to remember one AR member saying he got his but that is it. I would really like to know, just what has Hein produced in the past three years.