Jorge,
Buddy, I'd be willing to donate a few buck to the "GTSBA" Fund. (Get This Sleeze Ball Arrested)

You might call "The Dog"

Thanks, Rusty. If I had the time, I'd fly up there and get something going, but my wife made me go to work after I retired so now I just don'thave the time. Hell it was all I could do to take a few days to go and kill that Oryx. I just hate to see this bastard get away with this and besides Howard and myself, I know there are others out there. jorge

I don't think so. His shop was at his Dad's farm out in the boonies so I'm sure is still there...with my 800 dollar piece of wood...jorge

Have followed this and read every post, after reading some of the posts, mostly by those who have nothing in it, threatening or advocating everything from an ass kicking to rape with a glass tipped @#$% I would not go anywhere near Dads farm or his place. I still hope you get your rifle or money back.

Maybe he will go on vacation and cross the border. The warrant will show up then. It will ruin his vacation!!!


ddj

Why is 21 pages of WFH relevant to gunsmithing, but the Bill Soverns thread not....

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Why is 21 pages of WFH relevant to gunsmithing, but the Bill Soverns thread not....

The Soverns thread almost certainly was locked by Jeffeso because he or one of his close buddies has some personal connection to Soverns and a vested interest in hiding his, Soverns, actions and behavior.

Jeffe got called on it and threw out the first excuse that popped into his head. Not even he really believes that thread had "nothing to do with gunsmithing"

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
The Soverns thread almost certainly was locked by Jeffeso because he or one of his close buddies has some personal connection to Soverns and a vested interest in hiding his, Soverns, actions and behavior.

Howard, I will bet you voted for Obama too.

Jorge, I realize this is a long shot but did you inquire about the theft of the two stock blanks with the Sheriff's Dept. Most states anything over $ 500 is grand theft.

thundr: Working that angle as well, but the cops up there are just too busy. We'll get him eventually. Thanks for asking and Merry Christmas to all. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
thundr: Working that angle as well, but the cops up there are just too busy. We'll get him eventually. Thanks for asking and Merry Christmas to all. jorge

I wonder if a PI or bounty hunter would be interested in a citizens arrest for half of what you are owed? Every bondsman must know someone who can collect for them?

Hello Jorge,
Do you have a local lawer? Or did you have to get one way out there?

Hello Jorge,
I would like you to contact me with your lawers
information. I have some very interesting information.

Just now saw this. Wish you would have sent me a PM then. I have all the info if you still want it.

Well lads, there's an old Cuban saying that says "with patience and spit, the elephant fugged the ant" and with that in mind, I am happy to report that after ALL these years, that included a law suit, and agreement to pay by Hein, then renegeing, Contempt Of Court Warrant and eventual arrest, Collection Agency, lawyers, etc, Howard and I extracted our pound of flesh from this reprobate.

You are probably wondering given the initial amounts in question as to whether it was worth it, but thanks to that pesky issue of "iterest accrued" and court costs, we both pretty much broke even, but the best part and speaking for myself here was victory and vindication, not to mention the fact his keester wound up in jail for contempt.

I would also like to thank a couple of you guys (and you know who you are) that provided us with the requisite intel to find and squeeze this crook.

Turn the other cheek my ass, serving up a cold plate of revenge feels good. jorge

Congratulations, Jorge!

Congratulations, Jorge!

I hope other members take a lesson from this, and negotiate their commissioned rifles diligently.

George

Great news

I would like to hear about the sauce that went with this sweet cold dish!

Cheers, Chris

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
...not to mention the fact his keester wound up in jail. jorge

I'm still out a couple grand to Hein but I feel SOOOOOO much better now. Good work Jorge!

Gents, thanks for the words, but Howard is responsible for a huge part in this operation! I just provided the 'bulldog tenacity"

I'm also out a couple of grand to Hein, but I am glad he got his due!!!

Thanks Jorge, and you are right, you did provide the "bulldog tenacity". I almost certainly would not have followed through.

As Jorge said we did get paid. Well everything but attorney fees which makes it a net loss for each of us. However that loss is significantly less then what we were originally out.

Part of me still feels bad for Hein. From what I know he comes from a respected family. I want to think that he is basically a good guy who got in over his head and rather then man up he ducked and ran. I suspect he wishes he would have handled things differently. My backdoor information is that his wife made him stand up and face the music and his father, when asked, loaned him the money to make good on his debt to Jorge and I. I think that means there is some good on his side of things.

My sympathy only goes so far however. I know I have got in over my head, screwed things up and had to make it right at considerable expense to myself. Greg Hein SHOULD have done the same thing.

To me there are a few lessons. One is that established people/businesses in whatever field charge more because there is real VALUE in a proven track record. Secondly is that "one off" type endeavors such as these should be viewed as risky and should be funded only with money you are comfortable losing. Thirdly in any and every way possible you should make payments only upon prove of work actually being completed - progress payments in other words.

Jorge, thank you for working with me, providing leadership, and those nudges to keep this moving through to completion.

Howard: A very well-reasoned, and cogent post. Must be my Latin blood and killer mentality, but to be honest with all here, I was out for blood, especially when he reneged on the judgment AND his material possessions he bought AFTER he fleeced a lot of us here. Cheers and thanks, Howard!

I think Howard's assessments are pretty accurate. I knew Greg, as well as his top gunbuilder/mentor, and while Greg was a highly talented and artistic maker his dreams and ambitions were unfortunately greater than his means.
I used one of the first Hein rifles for a season and had submitted a feature of it,and the company, to Rifle magazine shortly before all his major creditors began repossessing his tooling.
Like everyone here who had sent deposits, I too was impressed by the product. It really was impressive. But I notified Rifle magazine and pulled my feature when it became apparent that the wheels were falling off the entire endeavor.

I think Howard's advice on purchasing custom rifles is a good start. Although both sides started out with the best intentions, it reinforces the need for a written, enforceable contract. Maybe I can find time to use the entire episode for an educational feature on "What Could Go Wrong?"

And I think Jorge's persistence has done the entire gunmaking profession a favor.

I appreciate the sentiment Phil. Maybe it's just my nature, and the fact that I've had to really fight and work hard for what I have, but I just can't stand a lack of integrity.

And as far as a written, enforceable contract, after the law suit and ensuing judgment, it was just paper. The lesson here is whilst remaining within a legal framework, there is no substitute for PRESSURE, and for this purpose I define it as lawsuits, collection agencies and not just writing it off. But again, to be forthcoming, I like to WIN and I did want revenge. That's just me, I was trained that way

Firstly let me say to Jorge & Howard, you did the right thing, even if you broke somewhere even financially.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
... and while Greg was a highly talented and artistic maker his dreams and ambitions were unfortunately greater than his means.

...Like everyone here who had sent deposits, I too was impressed by the product.

..And I think Jorge's persistence has done the entire gunmaking profession a favor.

Mr. Shoemaker,
The three very valid points you make about Greg Hein apply equally to Stuart Satterlee.

The stream of utter lies and deception [or constant refusal to respond and communicate],
that we have seen from those two individuals is just astounding and not acceptable.

The sooner these type operators are gone from the custom gun industry the better it is for everyone.

anyway as the situations stands, its one down and one to go!

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

Part of me still feels bad for Hein. ...My backdoor information is that his wife made him stand up and face the music..


... you should make payments only upon prove of work actually being completed -

At least Hein has one up on Satterlee, his hypocritical bible quoting wife instead foolishly prefers to 100% support Stuarts fraudulent business practices.

as far as paying for work part completed, I did that with Satterlee, since the reciever alone was already made[old stock from Taconic]
Its just that he has not been bothered to produce the other necessary parts to make a complete action.
He stated it would be all completed in a few months, I written ordered Aug 2009 on the understanding it will be ready for delivery Feb.2010
He accepted the order full well knowing when it needed to be finished and ready for delivery,....its now coming up close to 5yrs and nothing to show.

Note: I gave Satterlee my business even after he screwed a lot of AR customers around from 2006,
I did this because he made a written pledge on AR in 2008, to vastly improve his business model from that shameful debacle.
Instead of improving and taking on the trust of his customers second time around, he decided rather to waste that new opportunity
and make his business model even worse,...yet his dilusioned wife believes he is the victim in this down spiraling mess of his own making...
The PM messages she sent me defending her man were fr*ckn ridiculously stupid and irrational in content, they were just a senseless ranting distraction
which mentioned things not even remotely relating to Mr. Satterlees business obligations.

Now the other downside-down stream effect of all this:... is that it caused me to get cold feet with another AR smith I had two quality projects started with.
I payed him up front also and he completed the initial work orders as promised. He sounded rather enthusiastic and excited about what I had sent him to work on,
with prospects for more work on those projects pending his progress on the first stage, however since He and Satterlee have a relationship that goes back years,
I seriously began to wonder if that other smith could be trusted with the whole thing, the sh*t that dragged on with Satterlee made me begin to doubt the other AR smith.
He probably rightfully deserved to get the thousands I payed to Satterlee.