quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
Ugly, ugly, ugly.

jorge, if you really want his toothbrush, I hope you get it.

And I hope it makes you feel like a winner.

Hello?

Life is really tough, and then you die.

If you're lucky, all your friends die before you do, and that's not much fun either.

Once again, I ask administration to create a "I've Been Abused By Gunsmith/Rifle Builder/Etc., Etc., Etc." board.

Because, well, this board should be for sharing gunsmithing information and techniques.

It's not the Consumer Affairs Board.

If jorge chooses not to patronize riflesmiths in the future, that's his choice.

And he, and his cohorts, should excuse themselves from the Gunsmithing board.

If you're a 'smith, you belong here. If you're client to a rifle builder, feel free to share you victories.

We love photographs of beautiful rifles.

If you've been done wrong, take it the Chaplain.

Maybe that's what we should call the new board.

Take It To The Chaplain.

flaco

N.B. Or, "How To Hire a Lawyer to Get His Toothbrush?"

All I see is a bunch of guys who have defined themselves as losers.

Hey Flake-oh.......why don't you just refund us our money and the case will be closed. You will never hear us mention it again. What do you say? NO? I didn't think so. So easy to "preach" when you don't have to act.

You must be one of the people who blame the ugliness on those who are left to clean up the mess and ignore the ones who created the mess.

Flake-O

That was spoken like a guy who's screwed more than a few unsuspecting customers in his time. You don't like what you see because it's like looking into a mirror.

quote:

All I see is a bunch of guys who have defined themselves as losers.

Taking a look at all the comments on this thread, there is really only one guy who has defined himself as a loser. That big "L" tatooed on your forehead kind of gives it away.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Flake-O

That was spoken like a guy who's screwed more than a few unsuspecting customers in his time. You don't like what you see because it's like looking into a mirror.

quote:

All I see is a bunch of guys who have defined themselves as losers.

Taking a look at all the comments on this thread, there is really only one guy who has defined himself as a loser. That big "L" tatooed on your forehead kind of gives it away.

If you read some of his earlier posts on this thread you can sense the envy he feels towards those who can afford to have a custom rifle built.

quote:

If you read some of his earlier posts on this thread you can sense the envy he feels towards those who can afford to have a custom rifle built.

Must be torture for him. A guy with a snubnose carrying around a case of barrel envy? Must eat the poor guy alive.

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Flake-O

That was spoken like a guy who's screwed more than a few unsuspecting customers in his time. You don't like what you see because it's like looking into a mirror.

quote:

All I see is a bunch of guys who have defined themselves as losers.

Taking a look at all the comments on this thread, there is really only one guy who has defined himself as a loser. That big "L" tatooed on your forehead kind of gives it away.

If you read some of his earlier posts on this thread you can sense the envy he feels towards those who can afford to have a custom rifle built.

That's a crock of shit. He simply doesn't believe this crap should be aired out in the public fashsion that has been. I disagreed with him about it but am beginning to see his point.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
He simply doesn't believe this crap should be aired out in the public fashsion that has been. I disagreed with him about it but am beginning to see his point.

Terry

I don't know how you reached that opinion. I just reread his post and I did't get that. More like a petty personal attack on Jorge and I. I reckon he, Flake-O, would be the first to scream if he got burned by Hein and we had neglected to post our experiences with Hein. Seems like we, Jorge and I, are in a no win situation with some on this board and that is fine.

Howard:
You asked, several posts earlier, if anyone has been in contact with hein: well, I have not been able to establish comms regarding my 2.5 yr old deposit on a 505 gibbs rifle.

To flaco and his defenders, I really don't give a rat-ass what you think. The title of this post was "Hein Contact?" to see if anyone had heard or seen this guy.
Further, Hein reads these threads (by his own admission) so he at any time could have challenged anything said here.

I didn't know there were "rules of engagement" on what could be said (or not) on this thread, but suffice to say it looks like there's about a 99 plus % concensus this thread served a useful purpose, so my penchant for "winning" seems to be satiated as well as serving as a "public service." Finally flaco, it's obvious that winning is a fleeting concept with you and that's fine, the world needs it's share of losers. jorge

Speaking of "winning" save for the Benefit Raffles and good samaritan posts on AR, am I coming close to having one of the most read posts on AR?

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
He simply doesn't believe this crap should be aired out in the public fashsion that has been. I disagreed with him about it but am beginning to see his point.

Terry

I don't know how you reached that opinion. I just reread his post and I did't get that. More like a petty personal attack on Jorge and I. I reckon he, Flake-O, would be the first to scream if he got burned by Hein and we had neglected to post our experiences with Hein. Seems like we, Jorge and I, are in a no win situation with some on this board and that is fine.

Howard it's in the lawyers hands now. Why the relentless attempt to keep this thread going just baffles me.

Before you start criticizing me for not understanding the situation. Well, I've been there. I once sent a box of rifle parts and a $1000 to a gunsmith who skipped town. He just pulled up stakes and left. Left his wife, left his business, left his customers and his landlord high and dry. I called the shop one day and the landlord answered the phone. He wasn't very happy but was willing to listen. I told him what I had over there and he found the box of parts and then thumbed through the mail stack and sure enough my deposit (a very cashable money order) had arrived a day after this guy skipped town. He threw it all in a box and tapped it shut and filled out a mailing address and affixed it to the box. He said he would have the gunsmiths wife mail the box back to me and I could just re-emberse her for the shipping. His wife who I actually felt sorry had for agreed to send the parts back, but she got that scorned feeling went and got a lawyer. the lawyer advised her she could auction off all the smith's contents in this shop and at home to settle any outstanding debts the smith had incurred. From that point on my package could not be mailed back because of FFL issues so said the scorned wife. I called the landlord and he said he would never steep foot back in the building again because he knew what was going on was illegal. He said he knew there were guns in that building people had stopped by in person and ask for in person and she said they were missing. Finally after making contact with this woman and explaining that if I didn't receive my package back I would be contacting the Idaho state attorney generals office, the local sheriffs dept and the BATF. The doors to the shop would be padlocked and there would be no auction at all. I told her to run it past her lawyer and see what he said. About an hour later the landlord calls me up and say's this woman dropped two packages by his house and said they were his problem now. He said one was mine and he would mail it back the next day. Yes, him and his wife had a good steak dinner on me. People on AR were involved but it was handled privately though PM's. All this happened while the rest of the AR world turned contently.

This thread has become ridiculous and really served no purpose once the layers got involved. As a matter of fact it may have very well worked against the parties involved. It would seem to me the last thing you would want to do before you enter negotiations is get the opposing side in a fighting posture which I'm sure this thread most certainly did. It was stated that the thread was kept open to warn others. Well, the man won't answer his phone so I'm sure he's no threat to others.

Why does a thread like this become so popular here on AR? The short and simple answer is misery loves company. It's the same reason people can't help but look at a bad car wreak on the interstate. They love to read this crap and think to themselves "at least I'm not him." Do you think these people that gave 13 pages of replies give a shit about you or your problems? Think again, most of the replies come from people that would otherwise never contribute anything.

I remember when this place celebrated peoples achievements now it just seems a lot of people get excited when someone fails. It sure seems to get more attention anyway.



And Jorge, I really don't give a rats ass what you think either.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Flake-O

That was spoken like a guy who's screwed more than a few unsuspecting customers in his time. You don't like what you see because it's like looking into a mirror.

quote:

All I see is a bunch of guys who have defined themselves as losers.

Taking a look at all the comments on this thread, there is really only one guy who has defined himself as a loser. That big "L" tatooed on your forehead kind of gives it away.

If you read some of his earlier posts on this thread you can sense the envy he feels towards those who can afford to have a custom rifle built.

That's a crock of shit. He simply doesn't believe this crap should be aired out in the public fashsion that has been. I disagreed with him about it but am beginning to see his point.

Terry

+1


the law part of this is just fine and is how adults with a disagrement settle their buisness disputes. the group here who want to kick gregs ass and take his wifes toothbrush are acting in retribution and have given up the moral high ground. The public beating that has gone along with this legal action is bush league horseshit.
I have no problem with jorge getting what is owed him I wish it had ben the rifle and not money but such is life. Greg Hein is a ok guy and a good smith he is not a monster or an evil person. greg has not aired his laundry in public and would not make any statement about anyone involved in this dispute even when asked. He has a couple of my projects in his shop and I will wait until they are ready if it takes forever. if you have work with him and chose not to wait so be it. If you dont have buisness with him and never will great get off his neck so he can work on my shit. the group of strutting little cocks here who want to kick a man when he is down dont rate too much in my opinion. some of you are peronaly attacking guys you dont know because they disagree with you welcome to junior high.

quote:

the group here who want to kick gregs ass and take his wifes toothbrush are acting in retribution and have given up the moral high ground

I think Greg gave up the moral high ground with his treatment of Jorge, Howard, Bryan Chick and others. You're correct that he is a good smith, I know because I own a Hein rifle, but that is no excuse for his shabby treatment of his customers.

Crusher: I think you have an issue with the way I wrote things and that's ok. Again I ask if you read the original premise of this post, all I was asking for was information. Never have I implied Hein is a "Monster" but the evidence is overwhlming he on several occassions has been less than candid with a bunch of his customers.

The "toothbrush" analogy was a sophomoric attempt on my part to describe how the legal proceedings were structured. I take it you've had contact with Greg ( a feat in and of itself) but answer me a question: You indicated you are willing to {sic} wait forever for your projects from Hein. So I take it if the meaning of forever is what I think, you've given him money without any expectation of receiving the finsihed product? Forever's a long time. jorge

Terry; I'll make it a point to live with your opinion of me, and you have a very valid point on your "Train Wreck" analogy (hence my comment on # of postings again "tongue in cheek"), but neither Howard nor myself divulged anthing but the fact that it took legal action for Hein to reach a settlement and there are a whole bunch of guys here in the same boat. What Hein has done is just not right and there's no guarantee he'll honor his latest agreement either. jorge

I think these threads are very valuable. If it were not for Snowwolfe's earlier thread on Hein, I would have been right in there with Jorge, Howard, and all the rest. If I remember correctly my deposit was supposed to be about $3250; if it were not for threads like this I would be out that money.

Jorge, we've both seen each others uglier side before but we always seem to meet in the middle.

I do wish you all the best, I really do. I've just watched this thread detract from the purpose of this forum for so so long. IMO, there isn't a thing that's not already been said that's going to change anything.

Sorry for the outburst. I feel better now.

Terry

comander I am not saying your not right to want some satisfaction. you have a real issue with this vendor and I hope it will be worked out for the best. I agree this was not handled well from a buisness standpoint with many people feeling slighted. however their are people posting on this with blood in their eye that have no buisness with or knowledge of this smith. there are also people here who have asked for and recieved a full refund and are still bitching. That just does not seem right to me.


Yes I mean forever I gave him the work with the agreement "when you get around to it" and I ment it. I am working the other side of the speed quality price triangle

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:

quote:

the group here who want to kick gregs ass and take his wifes toothbrush are acting in retribution and have given up the moral high ground

I think Greg gave up the moral high ground with his treatment of Jorge, Howard, Bryan Chick and others. You're correct that he is a good smith, I know because I own a Hein rifle, but that is no excuse for his shabby treatment of his customers.

Yup three lefts make a right.

You Jorge and Howard detractors. Honestly you have made some good points. On some others you are way out in left field. Simply put if you think this thread is inappropriate ignore it. Your complaining about our whining is simply just more whining without a reason for it.

Any many of you must not read what we write or don't comprehend it or choose not too. Our, at least my issue with Hein has never been about time. If I would have been told 5 years I would still have placed my order and would be happily waiting. My whole issue is Greg's dishonest statements. Once again. He clearly told me he was working on my actions and gave me a firm delivery time. When I stopped by his place of business he admitted he hadn't even started on my actions. Then he sent me an email and told me not to call him and that I wasn't welcome at his place of business anymore. At that point I lost all trust and confidence in him. Never was the time an issue only his lies.

See Gentlemen? this thread does have redeeming social value. It's not perfect, but the fact we saved folks like LHook from the same fate, makes it worthwhile at least to me.

I can understand working the "quality side" of the power curve regarding a timeline (or lack thereof) but that was really inmaterial. Like Howard says, this whole issue went south when the first LIE was cast. And that dubious honor rests squarely oh Greg Hein's shoulders. I think it's time to let this one rest for a while, but it is my intention to eventually publish the "final chapter" and believe me when I say this is not what I had in mind when I first started this thread. jorge

I do not think any criticism of Howard or Jorge is appropriate. If Mr. Hein had not lied to his customers, and refused to answer phone calls or emails, then there would not have been a problem.

As for keeping the thread alive, getting both the good and the bad info out there makes AR a valuable resource. I think this thread should be a sticky until Hein pays what he promised to Howard and Jorge.

quote:

Do you think these people that gave 13 pages of replies give a shit about you or your problems? Think again, most of the replies come from people that would otherwise never contribute anything.

I can promise you that I honestly care whether or not these gentlemen resolve their problem with Hein. I don't know Howard but I've had dealings with Jorge and consider him a friend.

Andy

[Quote] ...the group here who want to kick gregs ass and take his wifes toothbrush are acting in retribution and have given up the moral high ground.... [Quote]

Since some guys probably sold their wifes toothbrush to get a Hein, they probably deserve to get Gregs wifes toothbrush, at least to console their own wives for the sacrifice they made.

Anxiously awaiting the final chapter of this saga to be written by Jorge and Howard.

Hein will drag ass to the bitter end I am sure.
Take Home Lesson:
Never do business with a guy named "Hein" or "Heinie" or "Ass."

How much can a used toothbrush be worth?

I sincerly hope Jorge and Howard get their money back. I really do. I know Greg's business ethics are very "relaxed". I don't doubt that he lied in some instances. As a business owner myself, I've had to occationally lie but I always made sure to cover my a*s and get my customers what the deserve. He probably should have stopped taking orders at some point or another. I, however, am willing to wait for his rifles even if it takes 10 years. And if I get screwed, so be it. I won't lose sleep over it. There are way bigger worries in my life. Don't get me wrong, I don't like losing money nor am I wealthy. I work hard for what I earn, but as long as Greg is willing to build me a rifle he will have my business. This is probably going to piss some people off but this is how I feel.

Definitions:

Hein = "angel of death"

Heini = "idiot"

Source - Oxford Duden

bump

quote:

Originally posted by CARLOSTHEJACKAL:
How much can a used toothbrush be worth?

Hopefully as much as he's fleeced me for. Relaxed business practices? how about false representation and outright lying (repeatedly). I'll be the first to say that I am not in such financial solvency that I could afford to "worry about more important things in my life" than 6gs,but to ME, 6 grand is a lot of money and LYING is worth everything, so if it takes his toothbrush, so be it. jorge

Well Jorge, I hope everything works out for you.

Likewise! Hey I want everyone to get what's justly theirs in the end. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by CARLOSTHEJACKAL:
As a business owner myself, I've had to occationally lie...

Sorry, but I have to throw the flag. Lieing is a choice, and a bad one, that no one "has" to make. Better to not say anything than tell falsehoods, because sooner or later it will bite you. Perhaps that's what happen in Hein's case.

Toomanytools

You can throw whatever flag you want. As I said, I always make sure to deliver in the end. Lying is sometimes a reality of the situation. I try to avoid it at all costs but sometimes it is unavoidable.

Sorry, but I guess we'll agree to disagree. I do not tolerate liers, thieves, or cheats.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Sorry, but I guess we'll agree to disagree. I do not tolerate liers, thieves, or cheats.

Well put. Lying is never a have to.......its always one of two choices.........always.

So your telling me that you never lie to anyone. Not even "little white lies". To your boss, wife, friends, strangers, employees? If thats the case, boy do you all live straight line lives. Congratulations!

This isn't a question of "little white lies". If you have been reading the thead you will see it is very clearly delineated and outlined.

The aggrieved parties do not have to justify their behaviors outside the parameters of the case to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by CARLOSTHEJACKAL:
So your telling me that you never lie to anyone. Not even "little white lies". To your boss, wife, friends, strangers, employees? If thats the case, boy do you all live straight line lives. Congratulations!

I have done so......I think that isn't the point though. There is a difference is telling "little white lies" and regretting it and proudly announcing to the world. I lie, in business you sometimes have to lie but I always deliver in the end.

quote:

Originally posted by CARLOSTHEJACKAL:
So your telling me that you never lie to anyone. Not even "little white lies". To your boss, wife, friends, strangers, employees? If thats the case, boy do you all live straight line lives. Congratulations!

LITTLE WHITE LIE:

Wife comes down the stairwell and quips:

"honey does this dress make me look fat?"

My answer: No honey, looks great on you, but I like the other one better...

BIG BLACK LIE (apologies to Obama):

Question: Hey Greg, now that you've missed three deadlines and even though I've paid you 85% of the rifle already, can you provide me a picture of the progress?

Answer (after numerous unanswered emails & phone calls): Yeah, you'll have it by Monday. (five days later an unverifiable JPG file) and of course never answered any further inquiries.

How's that? jorge

quote:

So your telling me that you never lie to anyone. Not even "little white lies". To your boss, wife, friends, strangers, employees? If thats the case, boy do you all live straight line lives. Congratulations!

Let's see yep I mislead the wife when she has guessed what her present is going to be. Do I out and out lie to her or my friends. Nope. I have enough trouble remember actual facts must less something I made up. I found an "I don't know but will find out" or "I know but can't tell you" goes far better than a lie.

I had a gunsmith here in Houston. I had several projects done by him. Sent a number of customers his way. Last job he will do for me was to cut 2" off my wife's rifle. It was supposed to take 2 weeks. After 4 I called him and he said 2 more one of the smiths had been out sick. So after 6 weeks I picked it up. When I got it home I could tell it had been completely reblued. When I called him on it he said that it had slipped when they cut it off so they reblued it. Instead of being upfront and saying they had an oops and were going to reblue it they lied about the delay. Hey accidents happen lies are on purpose. Then he told me I should be happy they blued the entire rifle instead of touching it up. I was unreasonable for being upset I was lied to. Like I said last job he will do for me.

quote:

Then he told me I should be happy they blued the entire rifle instead of touching it up. I was unreasonable for being upset I was lied to.

That would piss me off too, it wasn't unreasonable to be upset by that.