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 For the bigots, and this is a lot bigger than a deer: 223 BRNO with Swarovski PF 8X56. 55g SP. Shattered brain stem and 2 vertebrae. Approximately 325 meter shot verified with laser range finder. I'll see montdoug's pic and raise him one. Neither PH had any worries about me making the shot. Here's both a brag and conclusive proof that shot placement matters more than caliber. Now you can go back to your regularly scheduled circle jerk of "oh noes! he took a head shot with a small caliber!"  "DEADER THAN FRIED CHICKEN BEFORE SHE HIT THE GROUND." Added bonus: No large hole to repair in the chest of my rug that's being crated this week. Can't even find the bullet hole unless you knew where it was. Anybody care to explain to me how a bullet that hit where my knife is stuck in was going to blow a jaw off and cause a terrible tragedy?  | |||
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Documentation of a stunt. | |||
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Documentation of having one rifle with a scope that would do it and a .375 along with express sights that wouldn't do the job because it more likely would have led to a wounded animal or missed shot. I set out that day to use the .375 but circumstances precluded that being a good option. Stunts are planned, aren't they? This was a use of an appropriate tool at an appropriate time. The .223 happened to be along that day for monkeys and the small five, just happened to be the right tool for the job. I had a .45-70 along that day as well, would that have been a good choice for a 325m shot on a zebra? Back to your regularly scheduled circle jerk. If y'all were to sit down for a minute and think about head shots on small or large plains game with hot 22s vs head shots on eles and capes with .30-06s and 375s or even .458s, as far as what the bullet has to do to get to the brain or spine, you might have to re-evaluate your bigotry but I know that won't happen. | |||
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Out of @80 deer that I've killed I've taken four head shots. In all four cases the head was all I could see clearly, and all the shots were successful. For three of them I had a steady rest and one was off hand at under ten meters. But for some small cedar trees I might have killed that one with a tomahawk. Two of the four ran a short distance after being hit in the skull. One of the two that dropped immediately was still breathing when I walked up on him 15 minutes later. Four out of 80 says it all. Sei wach! | |||
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You wagged all those rifles around and had nothing better than a .223 to use at long range. But then again you could have just passed on the shot. Instead you chose a stunt. I understand " The .223 happened to be along that day for monkeys " exactly. So is the 17 Remington going to be the next monkey gun used in Africa? Or you could try the .204 Ruger. Brown bear with a 17 how to use an animal as prop in a stunt. | |||
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Best tool for the job at hand at the time. Not a stunt. Next you'll tell me that all the eles culled with .30-06 and .303 by professional game officers and farm managers are "stunts" too. A "stunt" would have been doing it with my Contender in .223 Ackley. On that hunt I shot a steebok with a .375 because it was the rifle at hand and a zebra with a .223 because it was the useful rifle at hand. Being as you weren't there for either your opinion isn't worth spit but feel free to delude yourself in your "moral superiority". For what it's worth, a .177 pre-charged air rifle with silencer makes the best monkey rifle and I wouldn't shoot a zebra at 325 with one. | |||
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I’ve made a few head shots in my time. Most were because it was the best shot being presented and were at ranges that I felt confident that I could hit exactly where I was aiming. I prefer a shoulder shot. | |||
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Thread seems aimed to stir debate,not get simple opinion.......some do, some don't. If you are capable its certainly a lethal shot, if you live where its bucks only you will probably wreck the skull mount possibilities. Cull shooters seem to like the shot while against it for hunting. Opinions both way....to be expected, its imposing your ethics or hunting style on others that seems to cause the flames and emotion. Where I hunt shots come few and far between, I use a stout bullet design and take about any angle presented....might be the only shot offered all season.....I don't take iffy shots and haven't lost a deer in over thirty years. Not bragging, just don't take running or thru brush and cover shots. Shots are close and a MOA or better gun in the hands of a well practiced shooter with a steady hold, head shots should be quite doable. That said I never consider a head shot on a buck, that skull thing, haven't shot a doe since they required drawing a tag 25 years ago. But I would never tell someone else how to hunt or where to shoot a deer if it was a legal method. I thought Gatogordo made the best posts concerning the subject....well said. Never seen a deer running with a jaw shot off.....but seen a few running on three legs.... Dave If Accurate Rifles are Interesting.........I've Got Some Savage Rifles That Are Getting Mighty Interesting..... | |||
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Great post Dave! Excellent points made in a civil fashion, "ya gotta love it  "I've decided over the years to lung shoot everything for the reasons I gave in the post above about the old wild game/specialty meat butcher, mostly! Having said that....After belly crawling 3 or 4 hundred yards in the snow on that elk hunt last week as I was laying there prone with my rifle on a Harris-S bipod looking at the elk standing in the tall grass I was completely comfortable with the slight breeze straight in my face, the elk standing dead still broadside, she ranged 260ish with my Geovids and as that's about exactly my zero point with that .300 so with my VariX-III on 10X, I squeezed one off. Bang/flop! As I see it the poll was a legitimate query into how different shooters see it by a real sportsman who was curious for whatever reason as to the opinions of others. Seeing the question it's self as politically motivated is a conspiracy theory that's way beyond me  And sure isn't the Hot Core I've conversed with over the years. The arguments happen when people in general and no one in particular get cranky over opinions that diverge from their own. I do agree that ethics seem in "general" to be a bigger deal to us older guys who have harvested a lot of game, while just getting an animal or especially getting a "big one" seems to be the major focus of the younger hunters who have taken fewer critters. "THIS IS NOT A FOR OR AGAINST EITHER SIDE OF THAT OBSERVATION!!!" Just an awareness based on my personal experience cause I've watched that same exact progression in myself over 48 years of hunting. On that elk hunt the cow I shot was standing right next to a kind of thin beamed 6 point bull and I could have shot either one, I took the cow thinking about meat quality. (my 34 year old son thought I was crazy). What would everyone else have done? (not a real question, just a point to be considered). As to the ethics of shot placement I see it this way I guess. I have seen jaws shot off but as you aptly mentioned I have indeed seen more "tripod" deer (and especially antelope!") than jawless ones on reflection, (that's why I don't take running shots). To me the real issue goes back to a line I heard once in a Dirty Harry movie, "A man has to know his limitations"! That goes with what I said we all have to establish our own ethics. To me ya combine em together and if your really honest about the limitations part (which I think is the big glitch for most if they were "truly" honest), it all comes together and each person has their own answer. Sorry for being so windy. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Mature and reasoned statement without bigotry. Nice. | |||
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Oh, and don't head shoot one of these  because it'll ruin the shoulder mount. ("stunt" performed with .300 H&H in case "I might reload" wondered) | |||
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No way I can Improve on that! | |||
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These two quotes above really say it all concerning the head shooting debate. Two guys that have given the matter some thought and make excellant points. Good Hunting..... Dave If Accurate Rifles are Interesting.........I've Got Some Savage Rifles That Are Getting Mighty Interesting..... | |||
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This was posted on the Reloading Board and I'll copy it here for those of you that do not go there.
I have a bit of Hunting Experience. Have Killed a few, drug in Deer for some folks, and discussed the results of the shots and cartridges used with folks who bring Deer in to be Processed. I have no problem at all being critical of anyone recommending Inadequate Cartridges or those that recommend Head Shots. Things happen afield that cause excellent shots with good intentions to turn out poorly. Even when people are Adequately armed and taking a high percentage Kill shot, occasionally something still goes wrong. Then it is bad news for everyone involved from the shooter to the Trackers. The depression can be deep and enduring. The vast majority of it can be avoided with Adequate Cartridges and high Kill percentage(proper) shot placement. Why a person would want to reduce the chance of a clean 1-shot Kill seems to be an ego trip and/or a lack of experience that I do not support. I see no reason not to be critical of things I know to be wrong and hopefully can influence Hunters to be more knowledgeable than some of their peers. Hopefully being critical will lean them toward proper Cartridges and proper shot placement. Like it or lump it, that is the way I see it. | |||
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I see no reason not to be critical of your self imposed limitations on others. It must really bother you when people tell you that you are wrong. The superiorty of your comments are sickening and speak of "if I think it's wrong, by hell it must be wrong and it's my duty to tell you my opinion", whether asked for or not. It like one of the above posters said referring to Clint, " A man has got to know his limitations". You've reached your limitations a long time ago. But keep on posting this crap you come up with and the humorous part is that you think people care about your opinion. Pitiful. | |||
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To a man the head shooters I have spoken to resort to a head shot with a varmint rifle because they do not like the recoil of an adequate rifle. I have head shot animals at close range as a finishing shot but I would never take a long range head shot since it is primarily a stunt. Even a slight breeze can drift a 30 caliber bullet several inches at 300 yards. A 22 might drift a foot at that range. The longest shot I have take on game caused the bullet to drift 14 inches with a 100 grain 6MM at 3000 FPS. It was still a kill based on sound hold over and an adequate placement. What would a reasonable head shooter have done? | |||
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I couldn't agree more Hot Core. A man has to stand up for what he thinks is right or start squatting to pee. You have enough experience to have an opinion that matters to me and nothing you say would ever go without careful consideration on my part! We might not always agree on every aspect of every issue but my guess is we'd agree on a lot more stuff than we wouldn't. I also see your love of this sport coming through in your passion to defend it! Most admirable in my eye's!! Here's to ya Without individuals standing up for what they believe regardless of others opinions I'm sure we'd all be reading books about how people used to hunt animals that no longer exist and dreaming of how wonderful it must of been! "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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After reading many of your posts on this and other threads I can only arrive at one conclusion. I find your insistence on going to personal attacks every time you disagree with anyone about anything well beyond pitiful! It's incredibly Pathetic!!! I pity you as all one has to do is go to the place on the panel to pull up all your postings to be aware you must live a pathetic little life and I'm betting you've been pushed around a lot by everyone but the family dog which you probably abuse. I was thinking of you in the post above when I spoke of those weaselly little snivelers that hide behind the anonymity of the web to insult people and call them names cause the thought of doing it face to face at the local watering hole makes you piss down both legs!!! Nice and safe in here huh?  Your ability to debate, "actually" I should say "complete lack" of ability to debate any issue with out the childish name calling makes one think of a discussion with about an "immature" 16 year old having a tantrum. Laughable!! I'm sure it's beyond your meager intellectual ability to do so but if you are capable of rational thought ya just might consider listening to guys like Hot Core who has a wealth of experience and at least considering the points he makes, "then" if you disagree, "politely" make your dissenting view point known. If your point is valid and your as serious about making it as Hot Core is ya might even sway opinions instead of making people think your just a cry baby name caller. It's called adult conversation or "debate". Sheeesh!! "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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I, as a man, have had issues where it was a matter of best optics available and positioning of the animals.
And then bow hunting and handgun hunting are probably stunts to you but a lot of the world would disagree with you.
Tell it to the boys at Camp Perry. As to what would a reasonable person do on an unattainable head shot, they wouldn't take a head shot and depending on the size of the animal, they might take no shot on the animal at all. If you can't make the shot with a high probability you shouldn't take it, doesn't matter if it's a head or a heart you are looking for. Seems pretty obvious to me. | |||
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I shot a doe in the head once with a 125gr .30-06 doing about 3300FPS at very close range. The Zapruder tape looks mild in comparison.  Do what you want, I could care less.  Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Study Wind Doping and apply it to every load you shoot? Buying or making at least a set of 4 wind flags, that pick up even the mildest breeze is not done because we enjoy setting them up. They are simply a necessity for those that have the desire to improve their shooting. By no means are they used only in competition. Every dedicated long range shooter in this end of the world takes the time to set up the flags at 100,200,300 & 400 yards. You will also notice a small weather meter & notebook on the bench. After a few weeks of comparing your estimate of wind speed against the actual wind speed shown on your meter, your wind doping skills improve quickly. These same dedicated shooters have a ballistics chart of the load they are using. It takes a while, but the more you practice, the better you get at placing the bullet where you need it, regardless of the conditions. Most all the BR shooters I know use label tape to remind them of the bullet drop before they go varmint or big game hunting. If this sounds like a lot of work, you are 100% correct. Don't try to tell me this applies to target shooting only. It's pretty much a given that 99% of target shooters that don't practice wind doping in practice & during the match have a minute chance of winning. From what I see here, most folks consider their way to be the ethical way. To me ethics is doing everything in your power to increase the odds of a well placed kill shot It also looks to me like anyone that doesn't use the same cartridge as you places them in the "inadequate" group. Someone made the comment that the anti's just love to see shooters & hunters argue over the "correct way" to hunt. Here's my "correct way". Use as much gun as you can shoot comfortably, and still place the bullet in the kill zone. Please don't tell me where the kill zone is for me. Unless your the 2nd one to walk on water, you have no clue as to my comfort zone when taking a kill shot. Don't tell me what I do is a stunt. Once again, you have no way in Hell of knowing that either. I think the whole damn bunch of us should do one thing. STOP condemning people for their hunting & shooting practices. Unless someone is breaking the law, (not YOUR law)it is quite simply NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. | |||
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Wow sounds like you and Pititful ....sorry Hot core have such a love fest going on but enough of that............. If I am attacked on this board I will attack back. Simple get it????? Whether it be at a local watering hole or here on this board. I love the self annointed superior opinions you two little boys have and when you attack someone else for their experience, you'll cry and proclaim your right to correct them when they get back in your face. Go large or go home if you want to talk smack but don't go crying about this inherit right to correct others. Pathetic and Pitiful... the twins. I pity you as I look at the postings you have on this board and the pitiful and pathetic life you must be living to feel so threatened. I'm betting that you have a job at the "plant" or on the assembly line and spend all day having people tell you what to do and how to do it. I know this must be a flustration for you and when you come on this board if someone disagrees with your "opinion", you loose it and off you go again. Or perhaps you are the engineering type and have lived in a world where there is only one correct answer to the problem and when people put forth an experience that differs from you "wealth of experience" you feel threatened and don't know how to handle it. But keep trying your responses are getting funnier and more enjoyable each post. Keep up the good works boys. | |||
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Tom Thanks for the great pictures. I really loved the picture of the head shot. Sweet. | |||
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My pleasure. But imagine the tragedy of if it had drifted a bit left or right, it would still have nailed the frontal brain or the vertebrae. Last time I checked wind doesn't tend to blow things high or low unless you are shooting into or away from it.  | |||
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Tough shit but I get to have an opinion too. Like I said EVERY habitual head shooter I have ever spoken to used a .223 or .22-.250 because he was recoil shy. | |||
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Hey Gene, The whole point of the Board is to discuss "different" methods and ways of Hunting and Reloading. If we all agreed on the same things, what is the point of coming here to hang out? Simply pat each other on the back? I completely agree with your comments about learning to read the Wind and creating your own Drop Charts. So, consider this a "pat on the back". I just don't agree that it is proper to use Inadequate Cartridges or to take Low Kill Percentage shots. That said, it appears the posters who disagree with me the LOUDEST, have offered "NOTHING of value" to support their side. Of course, I realize why that is so, it is simply because they have NOTHING of value to offer.  ----- I also see some folks mentioning that we should not debate a Hunting related topic "because" it makes peta and the arfs happy to see us disagree. I don't agree with that entire concept. The more we discuss and debate issues, the more the Beginners have a chance to learn the correct Methods and understand Killing is serious. And I realize some of the posters simply find it beyond their maturity level to discuss things rationally. If they attempted to do that, they would find there position is as solid as quicksand. That inability to defend their position also influnces the Beginners in a good way. Because the Beginners quickly learn who to believe and who to laugh at. ----- Hey Montdoug, I know it is difficult for some of the folks to understand we(you and I) DO NOT have to agree on everything for us to still get along. As you can see it has created great anguish for them. But, it sure hasn't helped their discussion skill level. | |||
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It's not our fault you seem to habitually hang out with recoil shy people. Maybe you should widen your circle of acquaintances? Lots of Irish are drunks but that doesn't mean I haven't met plenty that aren't. | |||
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That's a MIGHTY high horse you ride. Are you twelve feet tall or do you use a ladder to get up on it when you head out in the mornings? | |||
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There it is my man, there it is! "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Tom I forget to add an "atta boy" on the shot distance on the zebra. 325 meters is around 350 yards and that is some impressive shooting to connect at that distance. Speaks well for your shooting ability. | |||
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Oh please stop you are creating great anguish for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |||
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I'm feeling oppressed! I'm gonna call the NAACP lawyers! National Association (for the) Advancement (of) Centerfire Poodleshooters .223 has more energy at 300 than a 10 gauge slug and you can actually even hit something that far away...For what it's worth. Remember though, I'm a recoil pussy which is why I was out testing .577 loads today so you must take anything I say with a grain of salt. Just like I take everything the bigoted hardheads say with a dram of whiskey and some laughter. | |||
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Top notch optics on a good rifle are better than the best rifle in the world with mediocre optics. | |||
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No probs with head shots if you do it often enough. There is always that learning curve where you hit deer in the jaw or throat area. Both of those will result in a deer living for days or weeks unless you find it. I wouldn't recommend it personally, but the difference between selling a head shot deer and one shot elsewhere was the difference between $7 a kilo and $3 a kilo when I was selling them. Personally I neck shot the majority of the deer I shot and I was using a .222. Then again, I started off as a teenager shooting deer with a .22rimfire. Often shots were taken at night with a spotlight and you could only really make out the neck and eyes obviously. Another interesting fact is the majority of the Wapiti (you guys call them Elk I think?) culled in Fiordland NZ, were shot with the humble .222 (usually a Sako vixen). I would encourage weekend hunters or your 3 times a year city hunters to shoot for the heart. Simply because of the "Oh my god, there's a deer, I am getting a hard on" factor. Adrenalin does strange things to people. Most people wont do anything with shoulder meat anyway. Of the last 2 deer I shot one was shot in the hind leg, gut bag and finally the head and the other neck shot at about 150yds. They were running flat out to start with however. Ethical?? They are dead and sold now. How ethical is it to poison them with 1080? I always would prefer to kill them without them feeling a thing. If I was a deer, given the choice between getting shot or brought down and eaten by lions, I would tick the first box every time. Another very good reason for head shooting animals is that you never have to look far for them. They are found where they were last standing. I have shot deer in the heart that have gone all of 50-100meters at time with no heart left when I cleaned them out. Go figure. That area behind a deers eye or the base of their skull is actually a pretty big area. Certainly no smaller than their heart. But if it goes wrong, it really goes wrong. Nothing is worse than shooting a deers jaw off and never finding them. No hunter wants that. ar15hunter.50webs.com | |||
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Actually I don't. You are about about as habitual as I get with the under gunners. | |||
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 Neat head shot story!My cowboy buddy and I were in deep snow in some dark timbered down slope. He suddenly dismounted while drawing his rifle from the scabard, threw it up to his shoulder and fired. About 25 yards away a beautifull buck dropped right now. Cowboy, that's what I called him, trudged through the snow and layed his rifle against a tree as he drew his knife.He stradled the deer and pulled back on an antler to expose the throat. The anter broke off, mostly, the deer came up and gave my buddy about a 3 second ride. The bullet had hit the antler of course and knocked the deer out momentarilly. Bye bye Buck A little side note: When I got off my horse and coud see under the lowest boughs I could see we had ridden into a herd of Elk who were wondering where that shot had come from. In retrospect I just now realized that was 40years and 1 month ago. OH! By the way this has been a very entertaining thread. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I'll save my big bore stories for the big bore board even though that impala in the pic above went to a .300 H&H so I suppose that's a medium bore story. Is a .300 H&H undergunning an impala? You, being the oracle of all things hunting, I need and value your opinion. Should I have used the .458 Lott instead or perhaps a .300 WinMag because it's a bit hotter than the H&H? Wanna know the biggest bore stories? The ones about how you are the god of all hunting and anybody that doesn't make the same choices as you is unethical or a "stunter." | |||
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From your comment I am guessing that you feel that the Swaro scope was a great aid in this longer shooting experience. I would like to hear more about your experiences with these different quality of scopes that you've tried and the resultant effect on accuracy. I would think this would be of great aid to the beginners on this board that others seemed to be self appointed to protect those beginners from EXPERIENCES that differ from their almighty opinions. Sorry about the thread-jack. | |||
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Provided your mounts are good, nothing moves in a swaro unless you adjust it to move. Some of the others are good but they mostly won't make fixed power scopes because only weirdos like me buy them. The PF and PF-N fixed power scopes gather as much light as possible and have a wide field of view. Super sharp image like a good 35mmSLR lens. About as bulletproof as you can get. If you dial it in you don't have to worry about anything moving. With variable power scopes you get minor parallax changes and with cheap ones even reticle movement as you change power settings just through the movement of the bits of optics that vary the power. I have found that a good scope fixed in the power you actually almost always use is much more worthwhile than a variable and much more stable in maintaining a zero. 8X has always seemed about right for me at the ranges I'm capable of shooting so I buy fixed power 8X scopes. I have variable power binoculars for if I'm scanning the area. When I'm looking through the scope I want it to be the same every time. I'm not shooting through the binoculars. My dad, who mostly comes along on hunts as company and doesn't shoot a lot, can drill a deer with the .300 Savage I got him all day long with proper optics and with a mediocre scope or iron sights he misses the same shots all day long. Rifle scopes are just like everything else. You get what you pay for. I've bought junky rifles before, as has one other that's been posting here, to get the Leopold or old Redfield off it, and then sold the rifle I didn't care about. Scopes were worth more than the rifles but they were just a 4X or 6X and not a 3-9 so obviously worthless...  | |||
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