I don't know if this is the right forum for this but, does anyone make a .204" dia. bullet suitable for hunting small deer? I have an opportunity to Axis deer and would like to use this caliber for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
I don't know if this is the right forum for this but, does anyone make a .204" dia. bullet suitable for hunting small deer?

NO! roger

NO! roger

No what, you don't know of anyone who makes them or No, you don't approve.

Your own home state of California provides for "any centerfire rifle" for the taking of game animals, including deer. I once hunted deer in NoCal with a .17/.223 using Barnes original softpoints and it took them with no problem.

The currently available bullet I think might be suitable for deer would be the Hornady 45 gr. SP. I get great accuracy with these over RL-15.

Sounds like you set up the question to get a reaction. If you knew as much about bullets as you do about CA game laws then you have known what was available.

Are you brain shooting them? Even assuming suitable bullets, they seem a smidge big for a 5mm???

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
NO! roger

No what, you don't know of anyone who makes them or No, you don't approve.

YES roger

quote:

Sounds like you set up the question to get a reaction. If you knew as much about bullets as you do about CA game laws then you have known what was available.

I had no intention of starting a controversy over this, I was really wanting to know if anyone made a Barnes type bullet that would hold together on a deer size animal. I know that the original Barnes .17 cal. bullet would work on small deer so, logic tells me that a .204" bullet should do as well or better than the .17 on the same size or smaller animals.

Thanks, gromulkin, for the straight answer.

LWD, not necessarily but that would be ideal. My friends dad uses a .22/250 on them and he says they all fall down immediately.

If I were to do it...

I'd either choose the 50 grain Berger in 20 cal.. or else a fast moving varmint bullet and get it in the lungs...

I haven't tested out 20 caliber stuff, but I can tell you that a 40 grain 22 caliber bullet, with an Mv of 2700 fps or under can do quite a bit of penetration thru wood... because the velocity is slow enough, that its core is strong enough to penetrate instead of blowing up like it does at higher velocity...

however, attempting it is not going to make you many friends and you are going to get flamed....

but hey, people were flamed about hunting game with the 220 Swift once.. it is a personaly decision.. but for a 100 lb or less animal.. say antelope size.. I wouldn't worry about it...

I took an antelope once with a 40 grain Ballistic Tip out of a 223...

quote:

I'd either choose the 50 grain Berger in 20 cal..

Thanks, Seafire2, my only problem there is a 1 - 12" twist. Having recently read an article about them, they said it wouldn't reliably stabilize that length of bullet.

I've just seen too many Kills to go along with using Inadequate Cartridges on Game. That said, if it is under 50# I'd have no problem using a 22cal, because I've used them to Kill Dogs that size.

My bullet of choice on those Large for 22cal critters(under 50#) is the good old 50gr PLHP Remington. This Bullet has the Jacket "PLated on" to the Lead Core and sticks to it. I prefer using it on shoulder shots on the large Dogs but I've not had one Exit that I can remember.

It doesn't take a Premium Barnes Bullet to Kill a Dog(under 50#).

Can't say about the 17cal or 20 cal, cause I drop enough 22cal bullets as is with out them being any smaller.

Of course, a Larger caliber would also Kill the small stuff and if a Heavy Bullet is used, there would typically not be very much Blood Shot meat - if the meat interests you.

Best of luck to you.

I find it interesting that so many people are willing to flirt at the ragged edges of a cartridge’s limitations. I’m sure we’ll see dozens of posts from people that have killed tons of deer with the 204, So What! I bet we wont see one post from anyone that mortally wounded a deer with a 204 and it got away only to become coyote food in a few days.

Enough animals are wounded every hunting season with conventional deer rounds that have a margin for error built into them by virtue of bullet weight and bullet design. The 204 doesn’t have a margin for error.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I find it interesting that so many people are willing to flirt at the ragged edges of a cartridge’s limitations. I’m sure we’ll see dozens of posts from people that have killed tons of deer with the 204, So What! I bet we wont see one post from anyone that mortally wounded a deer with a 204 and it got away only to become coyote food in a few days.

Enough animals are wounded every hunting season with conventional deer rounds that have a margin for error built into them by virtue of bullet weight and bullet design. The 204 doesn’t have a margin for error.

Nicely stated and to the point roger

Well, I have killed deer with a 223, and I have had failures with a 300 Win Mag and a 200 grain Sierra in it....

My conclusions were NOT that a 300 Win Mag was not adequate for deer.. and that a 223 was....

My conclusions were that to kill a deer, one needed to put the bullet in the right place... If you can't do that, you shouldn't be out there period!

That is more crucial in a smaller caliber, but also the less recoil of a smaller caliber assists some to 'a lot' depending on how recoil sensitive the shooter may or may not be...

Thirdly, the bullet must be capable of being up to the job... or your velocity should be within the range that the bullet you are doing will be allowed to do the job you are attempting to accomplish...

Not many talk about bullet failures....

But I learned that you meed to understand your bullet's capability at various velocities...


My 300 Mag failure with a 200 grain Sierra in it, was because that bullet was too hard of a bullet, for that rifle to shoot a deer at 100 ytds, regardless of how good my hit was...as it passed thru the deer before it ever had a chance to open up.. the same bullet out of a 308 or 300 Savage at that range would have performed better...or if the deer had been at 400 yds instead of 100...

It didn't really fail.. I had the wrong equipment choice for that job at the distance I shot it.. I shouldn't have been playing macho with a 200 grain bullet.. I should have instead had a 180 or even better a 150 grain bullet at that distance.. no matter how big the deer were, that load is better off in an elk camp than a whitetail deer camp...

If I would have made the same shot with a 204 with a 50 grain Berger, at 100 yds, I bet that deer would have dropped and not got up and ran off like it did when hit with a 300 Win Mag and the 200 grain Sierra ( Federal Factory Load for informational purposes)....

In that scenario, the lung shot I made.. the 204 would have been the better choice ( although they were not in existance then)....

Is an 06 a better choice for Masterrifleman.. arguably yeah... but who are we to criticize a guys choice if he can put the bullet where it needs to go, at the range it takes to do the job??

I have had the luxury of seeing Roger Bartsche shoot.. Although he has shown he wouldn't hunt deer with a 204, I still would have a lot more confidence in being in the field with Roger and him carrying a 204, than I would with a lot of other guys I see around here that are hunting with a 30/30 or 7 Mag... I know Roger would know where to put the bullet, at what distance to at least give the combo a chance to do the job... a lot of these other guys are banging away at anything that moves at any distance..

Roger can shoot, I've seen him... I give the same credit to a guy whose handle is Masterrifleman, unless he is just fooling himself. ( which I doubt.. or give benefit of the doubt to him)....

He asks about what tool should he use for the job and do we think it will do it...

I say with the right shooter it will, better choices sure.. but its all academic anyway at this point..

A poor placed 416 Remington slug is worse than a well placed 204 bullet in my opinion...

That is a field decision the thread's author has to make.. not us...

I appreciate and respect those opinions and experiences of all those that replied. If I determine that I cannot find a bullet suitable I will NOT use the .204. It was curiosity on my part that posed the question. I remember P.O.Ackley and his experiment with the .220 Swift and solid brass bullets with a tiny lead point to kill western mulies. It does require the best of marksmanship and an adequate projectile not to mention a great respect for the animal you are pursuing. I will not enter into this lightly. Thanks again!

Presently ,on the small caliber forum, there is a thread reserection of".204 on white tail deer". It is likely that some of these people can put you onto what you might consider the right bullet. This not a reversel of opinion just a stab at being objective. roger

Thanks, bartsche, I'll give a look see.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
... who are we to criticize a guys choice if he can put the bullet where it needs to go, at the range it takes to do the job?? ...

I have a bit of Hunting Experience. Have Killed a few, drug in Deer for some folks, and discussed the results of the shots and cartridges used with folks who bring Deer in to be Processed.

I have no problem at all being critical of anyone recommending Inadequate Cartridges or those that recommend Head Shots. Things happen afield that cause excellent shots with good intentions to turn out poorly. Even when people are Adequately armed and taking a high percentage Kill shot, occasionally something still goes wrong.

Then it is bad news for everyone involved from the shooter to the Trackers. The depression can be deep and enduring. The vast majority of it can be avoided with Adequate Cartridges and high Kill percentage(proper) shot placement.

Why a person would want to reduce the chance of a clean 1-shot Kill seems to be an ego trip and/or a lack of experience that I do not support.

I see no reason not to be critical of things I know to be wrong and hopefully can influence Hunters to be more knowledgeable than some of their peers. Hopefully being critical will lean them toward proper Cartridges and proper shot placement.

Like it or lump it, that is the way I see it.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
... who are we to criticize a guys choice if he can put the bullet where it needs to go, at the range it takes to do the job?? ...

Like it or lump it, that is the way I see it.

AHHHH--Why don't you just say what you mean? roger

Well Hot Core;

you know I respect and honor your opinions, even when they are the opposite of mine....
that is why you won't see me disputing you, or my buddy Roger either, when our differences expose themselves....

what you say is based on experience, not being an accomplished arm chair ballistician, and same with Roger...

Like both of you, I base my opinions on what I have seen personally...

Because I think you also have enough experience, as soon as you declare something as gospel.. and a witness is present.. Murphy's Law kicks in, and it all goes to hell....or at least it does for me.. that is the only constant I can bank on, first time.... every time.. Murphy's Law...

Hey Seafire, I certainly respect your positions too. The whole point of coming to the Board is to share "different" opinions.

I don't think it would not be worth coming here if we all agreed on everything. We could just let Roger post and agree with everything he says(which we tend to do a lot ).

Yes, I do respect your opinion - even when it is TOTALLY WRONG!!!
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Adequate Cartridges mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmgood

I’ve said my peace. People are going to do what they want to do as long as the game laws allow it.

But take one of the finest little varmint cartridges to come down the pike in many years and turn it into a deer round? As I said before “I find that interestingâ€.

I guess the people that call the 204 Ruger a deer round and people like me can agree too disagree.