quote:

so why wouldn't it be able to hit minute of zebra brain

Because any ass knows that a zebra's head is like an anvil on the end of a neck.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

so why wouldn't it be able to hit minute of zebra brain

Because any ass knows that a zebra's head is like an anvil on the end of a neck.

Somebody forgot to tell the dead zebra with definite softer spots in the skull. Who's the striped ass here? I've got a hint, it ain't me. I made a non-stunt shot after extensive deliberation that was approved of and even suggested by one of the three PHs (one a friend that wasn't working but along for the hunt) that were there at the time and you are an annoying know it all on the internet that wasn't there. You sure showed me!

Keep digging for China. You aren't quite there yet but it's getting close.

I just searched your posts and I don't see a thing about hunting Africa that you've actually done on any of them. Why don't you just shut up and get over it?

Time for some "evidence".

1. I've not seen any Reports from Kathi about a PH laughing his clinton off because of anyone even remotely suggesting they should attempt a stunt shot on any Game.

2. Just did two quick searches on the African Board to see if any blowhard-braggarts had posted any stories about "Zebra, 223" or "Zebra, head shot". I was surprised to see one story mention recovering a 223 Bullet from a Zebra, but it was talking about the Retained Weight.

3. Haven't heard of any of the Elder African Board members dropping over dead from laughter.

Perhaps the "facts" are just a bit confused, but that happens a lot when blowhards push the limits of reality.
----

Or, perhaps I believe the story.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Time for some "evidence".

1. I've not seen any Reports from Kathi about a PH laughing his clinton off because of anyone even remotely suggesting they should attempt a stunt shot on any Game.

2. Just did two quick searches on the African Board to see if any blowhard-braggarts had posted any stories about "Zebra, 223" or "Zebra, head shot". I was surprised to see one story mention recovering a 223 Bullet from a Zebra, but it was talking about the Retained Weight.

3. Haven't heard of any of the Elder African Board members dropping over dead from laughter.

No "stunt shooting" was involved" A proper shot was made to take an animal I'd been chasing for a number of weeks (and, NO, only one shot ever was fired at it and it was the kill shot).

Anybody can be a PH on the internet or even in real life if you pay the fees to get the license but:

Maybe you should go out and actually hunt Africa instead of looking for what people posted on boards. Go outside, there's places besides the internet where real people live and most PHs aren't very internet enabled that actually live in Africa because the connections tend towards being dodgy even when the kaffirs aren't stealing the copper wires for the phones. It would increase your credibility immensely if you're gonna blather on about something you know nothing about you should maybe go learn some of it not from internet forums and magazines you read once. I don't shoot .38 Specials and I also don't suggest loading data for them. You weren't on this hunt so your opinion means less than spit, but you know that.

Do I believe any of your stories? Maybe, but I have a whole load of photographic evidence and witnesses for mine.

I was sent to this forum by a fellow benchrest shooter. He told me this was the undisputed champion of the world as far as pissing & moaning goes. I have to apologize to him for sure.

Damn if this place isn't worse than the Democratic National Committee after the last 2 Presidential Elections. Damn if this bunch doesn't cry & whine more than algore did when his dumb ass retirees in the State of Florida didn't have enough sense to punch a hole in a ballot and cost him the election.

To be honest, I'm not sure what the bitching is all about. I somehow managed to scroll through this outhouse of a thread, and the only thing I see, besides a huge waste of bandwidth, is a bad case of envy.

On one side there is a faction trying to discredit another hunter over the way he took his prey. Damn if it ain't pitiful when you have to look up facts on an animal for the purpose of validating to your next trolling post. All I saw were some excellent pictures of a place I'll never be able to hunt, and more pictures of trophy animals that I have seen on TV.

The sad thing is why in the Hell are you bitching anyway? Where I grew up, you learned to be proud of ANY hunter that has a successful & legal hunt. To be quite honest, unless someone is on your land or lease, it's really none of your business. Even if you paid for his hunt, you still have no say in the matter, unless you made an agreement before the trip that stipulated the manner of taking each animal that might be encountered. With the egos floating around this thread, I can see that being a possibility though.

The next time you fellows check that website you used to "check on the PH and how his customer took their game",
please share that link. GMAFB!

I would love to have been around back in the stone age to watch you guys piss & moan because someone used an inadequate stone to kill your dinner.

Seriously, after you guys ate my @$$ out when I asked if Hornady's new "deeper penetrating" (Hornady's quote) 45gr SP in 204Ruger would stand up to whitetail, since that was all I could stand post surgery, I shouldn't be surprised at what I see in this thread. You guys really do make hunters with a disability welcome in your world of cyber hunting. I was really proud of the 16 months of physical therapy I put in to even be able to shoot again, until the flaming started, and progressed
until several suggested I need to give up hunting since I wasn't able to use "enough" gun to suit their taste.

I put my own thread on ignore when one genius insisted that the I quit hunting, when I said the only other gun I was able to use was my AR15, with a 62gr Silver Ballistic tip. Maybe the 223 round is taboo on this forum. It sure stirred the $hit on this thread.

Wouldn't you just love to tell the families of the thousands of soldiers that 223 "mouse rifle" laid to rest, that their loved ones should not be dead because the round was inadequate?

When you guys return fire on this post, have fun. If I made reference to one of your comments, don't flatter your self by thinking I even paid attention to your usernames.
I have an excellent tool for placing you dullards in my "cyber cattle" list, better known as the ignore option.

One final note. There is only one stage of dead. Unless your God (I'm sure most of you are,at least in your minds), and saw the hunt unfold,your opinion on the matter is worthless. I'm glad you choose a internet forum to put your omnificent abilities to good use.

Congratulations to all of you that enjoyed a successful hunt. Only you can determine what you deem to be successful. Take solace in the fact your success can inflict no greater pain to those that live their lives in perpetual envy.

Enough of this stench.

Be safe

Hot Core ole bud, against your sage advice I did indeed activate the blow hard repellent option on the distinguished "know it all" from down south so all I'm getting is one viewpoint on this discussion/argument (the intelligent one I'm sure whether I totally agree or not and not only from you but the other non-rabid posters as well).
The futility of trying to make a point this cretin understands is evident in the fact he still hasn't picked up that you and I have somewhat diverging opinions on the topic of head/neck shooting. I believe we are both skeptical of the bully shot on a large animal using a varmint rifle at 300 yards being sanctioned by a PH in Africa, but I guess there are probably slob hunters in Africa as well as here in the States. I've just never met any. For some reason the fella seems to feel he's the only one that's ever hunted any place but in a fenced enclosure. It's like trying to explain physics to a gerbil.
Be that all as it may I just can't seem to get away from the recurring old saw floating through my head, I'm sure you know the one I mean. "Don't ever wrestle with a pig, ya both just end up smelling like sh.t plus which the pig enjoys it"! (He already stated so in a post above).
Hasta

quote:

Originally posted by the Head Shooting Montdoug:
...I did indeed activate the blow hard repellent option on the distinguished "know it all" from down south...

Non-Hacker!!!

Hey Montdoug, I was wondering "who" got SB all hacked off, must have been you. Sure glad it wasn't me!

For some reason, if a person tells SB what they think about a subject,(Inadequate Cartridges for Big Game Hunting are a pitiful and pathetic joke), it seems to rev-up his stress level. Perish the thought that ANYONE would ever disagree with him - on anything.

Ole SB must be a barrel of laughs up close in a discussion. Might even get the dreaded Red Face!
-----

And since you are not looking, your close and personal buddy Head Shooter seems to be a wee bit upset too. Getting caught doing things they shouldn't always has upset the youngsters.
-----

Speaking of people being upset, "who" forced the upset folks into this thread? They all appear to be such grand orators that surely someone held a baseball bat on them(no firearm) and MADE them express their "opposing" views.

All views are welcome in any thread I start, even if they are totally full-of-beans. How boring would the place be if we all agreed. Of course, I realize they "secretly" know I am right - as usual.
-----

I'll try to get into the "spirit" of the Thread with this next bit of blowhard bragging. Haven't done that in a very long time, so I might be a bit rusty. However, I've gotten the inspiration from some excellent evidence that blowhard bragging is alive and well, in this thread.

The next two stories are sponsered by the Inadequate Cartridge Head Shooter Association(IC-HSA):
(Montdoug "may" be the Chairman! )

Spotted a herd of Turkeys at 400yds Thanksgiving Day. Darn shame it wasn't Turkey Season or I could have killed all of them with a Sling Shot and rocks once they got out to a Sporting distance of 1200yds or so with Snuff Shots.

Snuff Shots???!!?!?!?!?!

A Snuff Shot was originally developed in KY(by me) to give a bit more Sport to Squirrel Hunting. In KY there were/are different classes of Hunters based on the firearms and ammo they used:

1. Shotguns
A. 10ga
B. 12ga
C. 16ga
D. 20ga
E. 28ga
F. 32ga
G .410

And each level was amortized by the size Shot being used.

2. 22 Rim Fire Rifle - Scoped.
A. 22LR
B. 22L
C. 22Short
D. 22CB Caps

3. 22 Rim Fire Rifle - Iron Sights.
A. 22LR
B. 22L
C. 22Short
D. 22CB Caps

4. 22 Rim Fire Pistol/Revolver - Iron Sights.
A. 22LR
B. 22L
C. 22Short
D. 22CB Caps
E. 22 Snuffers

Bonus Points were awarded for Barking the Squirrels. That is where the shot would be just below the Head, hit the limb and the Tree "Bark" would KO them.

However the very best shots that EVERYONE longed to emulate were made only by(Taa-Daaa) me! I used Snuff Shots with the Pistols/Revolvers. I removed the Bullet from a 22 Cartridge and simply used the Primer Compound as propellant. Then I shot past the Squirrels nose and the Bullet was going sooooooooo s-l-o-w that the Squirrel would pass out from a lack of Oxygen. Oh yes, all shots were over 500yds.

That is as credible as some of the above.

I've got photos, witnesses and a nice rug.

You have a load of hot air, all three of you.

That pretty much covers this thread.

303guy,
Thanks for the reminder to clarify. The first one dropped with a single shot to the brain. The second was unhit, and ran a few yards ( about 10) and turned around. She died on the spot with another brain shot. Sorry for the confusion.
Straight shooting and good hunting,
Graham

quote:

Hey Montdoug, I was wondering "who" got SB all hacked off, must have been you. Sure glad it wasn't me!

Boy howdy! He's so po'd he's telling us all about his tragic medical conditions again. I don't know about you but I'm in tears over his pathetic situation, whining snivelers always effect me that way, I must of watched "Ole Yeller" too many times. Pathetic individual probably got a shooting rest attached to his walker next to the oxygen tank. By the way, I thought he was the worlds most amazing pistolero, I didn't remember his being a benchrest whiz? How he does it between doctor visits is truly amazing! I know I'm impressed.
Has to be one of us got him going though but I can't for the life of me figure out which beings as how we are on opposite sides of the issue and seem to be getting along fine. Curious ain't it?
You ask great questions bro. One little topic covers the gamut from rational discussion to a windbag telling everyone about how to hunt Africa like he's the only one to ever be there and getting references from ph's to prove his amazing ability, all the way to a near deaths door whiner quoting his medical records. I thought the whiner got a .243 and all was a-ok! Remember, we all held hands and sang cum-by-ya? Must be the pain meds.
I fear I'm gonna flake out on ya again Hot Core, the blow-hard button just got dinged again on our poor pathetic SB . Life's to short and there's to many great guys to discuss things rationally with here.
I'm with Gatogordo, "time to piss on this fire and call in the dogs". Besides I'm so broken up by SB's pitiful condition I might never be the same .
P.S.
Only 500 yards? I did it at 600 with a Daisey Red Rider.

Thanks for that M70classic. OK, so the planets are still in orbit. I am alledgedly a good shot. What makes me so is an aversion to taking 'risky' shots. (You can't miss if you don't fire, right)? But sometimes those head shots look very tempting. What I need to figure out is how to minimize the risk of that dreaded jaw shot! So far I have ruled out side on head shots, running head shots and head shots where the animal is not looking at something specific ie, might move suddenly. I am told that a back of head shot is quite reliable (we are talking close shots). Any advise would be appreciated. (I did once deliver a finishing shot face on. The critter lay it's head still after that but the body carried on kicking. My bullet had blown the nazal bone structure away. I don't know if the bullet or any fragments, actually reached the brain.)

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
....... even when the kaffirs aren't stealing the copper wires for the phones.......

Tom....!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Thanks for that M70classic. OK, so the planets are still in orbit. I am alledgedly a good shot. What makes me so is an aversion to taking 'risky' shots. (You can't miss if you don't fire, right)? But sometimes those head shots look very tempting. What I need to figure out is how to minimize the risk of that dreaded jaw shot! So far I have ruled out side on head shots, running head shots and head shots where the animal is not looking at something specific ie, might move suddenly. I am told that a back of head shot is quite reliable (we are talking close shots). Any advise would be appreciated.

I prefer a quartering from rear 1st vertebrae/brain stem shot. Imagine you're trying to put the bullet in the hole in the skull where the spine connects. There's nothing in the way between the bullet and the brain but vertebrae. If you are off a bit in about a 4-6 inch circle of your point of aim it's still DRT be it a tiny white tail or an elk. In spite of some people thinking skulls are like anvils there are weak spots in the skulls of every animal and we aren't exactly talking eles here.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
... I am told that a back of head shot is quite reliable (we are talking close shots). Any advise would be appreciated.

OK..., DO NOT attempt a stunt shot - on Game.

quote:

(I did once deliver a finishing shot face on. The critter lay it's head still after that but the body carried on kicking. My bullet had blown the nazal bone structure away. I don't know if the bullet or any fragments, actually reached the brain.)

Line up Ear-to-Ear with the Barrel about 6" away from the Ear and the Bullet will get to the Brain.

About 30yrs ago I was sitting on the ground at the corner of a Wood Lot which was being driven by Dogs. Had a rifle across my lap to the Left and a shotgun pointed to the right. The Dogs appeared and seemed a bit confused. Next the Dog Handler popped out and asked if I'd seen the Deer? No Deer!

Back in the Woods they go and in maybe 90sec a nice 7-pointer darn near runs over me. I grab the shotgun and roll the Buck with some ancient old(bought before I was born) paper case Peter's 00BuckShot.

As I was regaining my balance a long tall fellow comes out of the Woods at what appeared to be a leisurely pace, but was going quite fast, carrying a single shot shotgun. As I got to my feet, he had reached the Buck and had his hand near it's ear. I heard a muffled "Boup" and the Deer was dead as it's head was going to the ground.

I got to him and still couldn't see what he had used because it was so small in his hand. It was a very small handgun which was and still is illegal to use on a Deer. He never used it again after we discussed the situation.
-----

Reality is tough on some folks stories:

quote:

If you are off a bit in about a 4-6 inch circle of your point of aim it's still DRT be it a tiny white tail or an elk.

No, it is not that large (6")of a sure Kill area on Deer. But, I can see how some people who "think" they have made a very long distance Head Shot would also believe the Deer Brain is that large from all angles.

Just go clean a Deer and you will notice it is not shaped the same as a Human Brain. It is much flatter which reduces the Kill Profile. Any teenager who has cleaned a Deer can verify that for you all.

Now. if you are in a Tree Stand and the Deer is 15'-20' directly below you, then the Kill Profile is larger, but still not 6".
-----

quote:

Originally posted by Red Rider:
...Only 500 yards? I did it at 600 with a Daisey Red Rider.

Oh YEAH! Well..., I was using a Derringer over the shoulder with a mirror.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:

quote:

Hey Montdoug, I was wondering "who" got SB all hacked off, must have been you. Sure glad it wasn't me!

Boy howdy! He's so po'd he's telling us all about his tragic medical conditions again. I don't know about you but I'm in tears over his pathetic situation, whining snivelers always effect me that way, I must of watched "Ole Yeller" too many times. Pathetic individual probably got a shooting rest attached to his walker next to the oxygen tank. By the way, I thought he was the worlds most amazing pistolero, I didn't remember his being a benchrest whiz? How he does it between doctor visits is truly amazing! I know I'm impressed.
Has to be one of us got him going though but I can't for the life of me figure out which beings as how we are on opposite sides of the issue and seem to be getting along fine. Curious ain't it?
You ask great questions bro. One little topic covers the gamut from rational discussion to a windbag telling everyone about how to hunt Africa like he's the only one to ever be there and getting references from ph's to prove his amazing ability, all the way to a near deaths door whiner quoting his medical records. I thought the whiner got a .243 and all was a-ok! Remember, we all held hands and sang cum-by-ya? Must be the pain meds.
I fear I'm gonna flake out on ya again Hot Core, the blow-hard button just got dinged again on our poor pathetic SB . Life's to short and there's to many great guys to discuss things rationally with here.
I'm with Gatogordo, "time to piss on this fire and call in the dogs". Besides I'm so broken up by SB's pitiful condition I might never be the same .
P.S.
Only 500 yards? I did it at 600 with a Daisey Red Rider.

You are sick!!!!!!

quote:

You are sick!!!!!!

Coming from you and having read your posts in the past I take that as a compliment. Thank you.

I just picked up my PLR-16 I ordered and am about to put the Burris on top. I bet it'll be a treat to head shoot some deer because remember in Texas:

Game animals and game birds may be hunted with any legal firearm, EXCEPT:

* white-tailed deer, mule deer, desert bighorn sheep, and pronghorn antelope may NOT be hunted with rimfire ammunition of any caliber.

Last I checked, a .223 scoped pistol isn't a rimfire.

Happy hunting. I may take it with for capes in March when I go back over. I hear you need a sturdy round and a fast maneuverable brush gun to hunt a cape. Maybe I should make it .223 Ackley like my Contender, just in case I need more oomph.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:

quote:

You are sick!!!!!!

Coming from you and having read your posts in the past I take that as a compliment. Thank you.

You are welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
I just picked up my PLR-16 I ordered and am about to put the Burris on top. I bet it'll be a treat to head shoot some deer because remember in Texas:

Game animals and game birds may be hunted with any legal firearm, EXCEPT:

* white-tailed deer, mule deer, desert bighorn sheep, and pronghorn antelope may NOT be hunted with rimfire ammunition of any caliber.

Last I checked, a .223 scoped pistol isn't a rimfire.

Happy hunting. I may take it with for capes in March when I go back over. I hear you need a sturdy round and a fast maneuverable brush gun to hunt a cape. Maybe I should make it .223 Ackley like my Contender, just in case I need more oomph.

If you can handle it, I'd recommend a muzzlebraked .243 for cape buffalo. After all, they can't be too dead.

Make sure and use a high integrity bullet design in case a side head shot involves penetrating horn Course them zebra heads are like anvils Good Hunting Tom

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

so why wouldn't it be able to hit minute of zebra brain

Because any ass knows that a zebra's head is like an anvil on the end of a neck.

Somebody forgot to tell the dead zebra with definite softer spots in the skull. Who's the striped ass here? I've got a hint, it ain't me. I made a non-stunt shot after extensive deliberation that was approved of and even suggested by one of the three PHs (one a friend that wasn't working but along for the hunt) that were there at the time and you are an annoying know it all on the internet that wasn't there. You sure showed me!

Keep digging for China. You aren't quite there yet but it's getting close.

I just searched your posts and I don't see a thing about hunting Africa that you've actually done on any of them. Why don't you just shut up and get over it?

Well Mr Stripped,
Check out the ballistics of your .223 at 300 yards. It BARELY beats the ballistics of the .22 WMR at the muzzle. Now tell me again... do you really want to make a habit of head shooting critters with a head harder than your own HEAD at long range with a .223. BTW, you really are ignorant about the skull of large herbivores. They really are like an anvil.

Today I heard another ignoramus head shot story like yours. This was with a .17 Remington at about 100 yards on a whitetail spike. The spike ran in a circle and then ran off. It was later found dead a few yards away from the location it was shot.

So I wondered what are YOUR recommendations for the .17 Remington on a zebra? Or is a .204 as low as you will go? But if a .17 Rem is ok, how about a .17 Bee or something similar.

quote:

the skull of large herbivores. They really are like an anvil.

This is quite true. There are some amongst us who have tried to slaughter a bull with a frontal headshot with a 22lr and the bullet just flattened against the skull. I knew a guy who had to dispatch an injured cow on the side of the road. He was armed with a 38 Webley - standard police issue of the time. It would not penetrate the skull!

quote:

.... the ballistics of your .223 at 300 yards. It BARELY beats the ballistics of the .22 WMR at the muzzle.

223 at 300 yds: 55gr SPS 2100 fps - 730 Joule 2.28 kgm/s
22WMR at muzzle: 40gr SPS 1950 fps - 459 Joule 1.54 kgm/s

That would be closer to double both energy and momentum. But I doubt anyone is suggesting taking a head shot at a large herbivore (or any animal) at long range with a small caliber (or any caliber) rifle. (I hope not anyway)!

quote:

.... about a 4-6 inch circle of your point of aim it's still DRT ...

Sounds about right. That statement would serve me well as I know my limitations and inability to hit such a small circle at any appreciable range.

quote:

OK..., DO NOT attempt a stunt shot - on Game.

Wisely said - thanks, I won't. (Too much respect for my quarry).



Folks, in my humble opinion, both sides of the 'debate' have valid points and good reasoning. I value and respect all of your opinions and I learn from your collective experiences. Thank you all for your contributions to this thread and thank you to Hot Core for being bold enough start shuch a 'hot' thread!

303Guy:

Also don't accuse people of "stunt shooting" that weren't. Then we can all be a big happy family again. Shoot within your abilities. Don't shoot outside of them. Be careful of shot selection and whether or not you even choose to make the shot. All problems solved.

For a headshooter asshole, I've not shot a stag at 50m with a .300 WinMag because it didn't feel right.

If HateCore and the rest of the naysayers want to hate me they can continue to hate.

Tom:

I knew we were the same kind of people. A .300 Win Mag is currently my most carried day-to-day hunting rifle and I've also not shot a stag with it at 50m, I've also not shot one at 1 meter or 500 meters but hey, my heart's in the right place.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
...If HateCore and the rest of the naysayers want to hate me they can continue to hate.

I don't believe that has been said. If however a person is a democrat, then it would fairly close.

I do "hate" to see the pitiful and pathetic attempted justifications of all the Stunt Head Shots. And as I said before, the concern is for the Beginners and Rookies who would try to follow such moronic, un-knowledgeable, and basically in-experienced examples.

It is quite clear from the (4"-6") Kill Zone comment there is a significant difference in how much the poster believes he knows about the physical characteristics of a Deer and Reality. This indicates a total lack of actual first-hand experience in removing the antlers from a Deer, or even investigating inside a head to see what he is attempting to shoot.

So, "hate" is the wrong term. Hopefully the Beginners and Rookies will be able to learn from this thread, without having to hold their hand head in a fire to see if it will burn them.
-----

For Montdoug, I was riding bareback wide-open with the mirror and Derringer.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
.....clear from the (4"-6") Kill Zone comment ....

I took it to mean that a 'back of head' shot included the neck area to make up the 'Kill Zone circle'. When I shoot, I want a 'large' margin for error. So I will automatically pass a shot that requires too much precision. In my mind I 'picture' a kill zone and aim for the centre of that. I 'see' the anatomy of my target and if I don't know what lies behind the surface I want to shoot at, I pass. Nothing to do with ethics or self-control - just simply lack of confidence in that shot! And my confidence diminishes very rapidly with range. To me, there is no such thing as a chance shot!

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
.....accuse people of "stunt shooting" ......

Heaven forbid that I accuse anyone of anything!

quote:

303Guy


Posted Sat Dec 01 2007 10:27 AM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by tom`:
.....accuse people of "stunt shooting" ......


Heaven forbid that I accuse anyone of anything!


Regards
303Guy

Posts: 43 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 October 2007

You sir are obviously polite and thoughtful, valuable attributes. Great having you here on the site! Some folks opinions carry more weight than others with me, yours is one of those. Good hunting to ya.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
.....accuse people of "stunt shooting" ......

Heaven forbid that I accuse anyone of anything!

No worries. Cheers and sorry about that bit a while back in France, of all the places and people to lose to, I bet there's some ribbing going on...I was wearing my silver leafed black cap and had money on the blacks...bloody refs!

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
303Guy:

Also don't accuse people of "stunt shooting" that weren't. Then we can all be a big happy family again. Shoot within your abilities. Don't shoot outside of them. Be careful of shot selection and whether or not you even choose to make the shot. All problems solved.

For a headshooter asshole, I've not shot a stag at 50m with a .300 WinMag because it didn't feel right.

If HateCore and the rest of the naysayers want to hate me they can continue to hate.

Why use a 300 Win mag when you can use a .223?

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
303Guy:

Also don't accuse people of "stunt shooting" that weren't. Then we can all be a big happy family again. Shoot within your abilities. Don't shoot outside of them. Be careful of shot selection and whether or not you even choose to make the shot. All problems solved.

For a headshooter asshole, I've not shot a stag at 50m with a .300 WinMag because it didn't feel right.

If HateCore and the rest of the naysayers want to hate me they can continue to hate.

Why use a 300 Win mag when you can use a .223?

To show off my "bigger guns" and sometimes the .17 Rem isn't handy. Sarah Brady and her lot would probably say I sometimes compensate for owning .223s and .17s by also having big magnum rifles...

Hey 303guy, We obviously think a good bit alike on this subject. With the Deer facing directly away, the Spine Shot will also Kill a Deer, if the Spine is hit. And facing away, the Kill Zone is much longer than 6", but also much narrower than the Stunt Head Shooter believes.

You bring up an interesting Point that normally crosses my mind when afield, but I forget about once I'm in the house. I wonder how far back the Spinal Column a shot can hit and be assured of a "clean, quick Kill"?

If you get back too far with a side profile shot, the Lungs continue to function and you simply Paralize the part Aft of the Point of Impact.

I see some folks recommend a High Shoulder shot, which they hope will sever the Spine. Obviously that would drop the Deer, but would it result in a clean, quick Kill? If Yes, how much farther Aft is it before it just drops the Deer but does not result in a clean, quick Kill?

What do you think and Montdoug think?

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
303Guy:

Also don't accuse people of "stunt shooting" that weren't. Then we can all be a big happy family again. Shoot within your abilities. Don't shoot outside of them. Be careful of shot selection and whether or not you even choose to make the shot. All problems solved.

For a headshooter asshole, I've not shot a stag at 50m with a .300 WinMag because it didn't feel right.

If HateCore and the rest of the naysayers want to hate me they can continue to hate.

Why use a 300 Win mag when you can use a .223?

To show off my "bigger guns" and sometimes the .17 Rem isn't handy. Sarah Brady and her lot would probably say I sometimes compensate for owning .223s and .17s by also having big magnum rifles...

I am sure you and old Sarah would have a lot to talk about when it comes to head shots.

if your Davy-Crockett....or ......Anne-Oakley.....
by all means go for it.i get excited when i sea deer.20 yards too 600 yards is the same feeling. no head shots for me their Very messy (did it 1 time),the bodys a bigger safer target. besides i just love our alfalfa and corn grown deer.
regards

If I can answer your question HotCore, I always attempt to shoot high shoulder on broadside shots with deer and a few years back had a six deer string of drt's with the shot. Than I hit one moving and it was about 6-8" farther back from my normal spot right where the spine dips down. He dropped instantly but was alive and laying there moving his front legs and head but unable to operate his rear legs. The pic I'll post shows where the spine drops down at the shoulder.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 12FVSS260:
If I can answer your question HotCore, I always attempt to shoot high shoulder on broadside shots with deer and a few years back had a six deer string of drt's with the shot. Than I hit one moving and it was about 6-8" farther back from my normal spot right where the spine dips down. He dropped instantly but was alive and laying there moving his front legs and head but unable to operate his rear legs. The pic I'll post shows where the spine drops down at the shoulder.

Dave

I shot a wildebeest in the boiler room with a swift a-frame .375 H&H magnum and he was snuffling and moving his legs a bit when I got up to him. How this relates to spinal shots I do not understand. I suppose I was unethical exploding his heart and lungs instead of his spine?

Hey Dave, Great flick for this question.

On the one that stayed alive, was any of the Scapula hit, or was the Point of Impact slightly behind it?

I just remembered why Tom is on ignore. Packy

quote:

I shot a wildebeest in the boiler room with a swift a-frame .375 H&H magnum and he was snuffling and moving his legs a bit when I got up to him. How this relates to spinal shots I do not understand. I suppose I was unethical exploding his heart and lungs instead of his spine?

Whats your post got to do with answering HotCores question? Did I say you were unethical? A shot in the heart/lung area doesn't relate at all to a post on spine and scapula shots. H/L shots are great and not unethical at all but why you quote my answer and than try to get ethics drawn into the answer about where a behind the scapula shot ceases to be an instant killer and still drops the game instantly but doesn't actually kill them instantly due to lack of CNS shock. Read HotCores question......and my answer......and then ask yourself what your response has to do with either. Geeeze Tom I haven't been giving you a hard time this entire thread.....do you want to debate something here?

HotCore.....I missed the scapula and hit just slightly behind it. This resulted in the classic spine shock that immobilizes but doesn't instantly kill. A shot through the scapula don't just get the lungs...... but it damages the brachial plexus which is part of the central nervous system thereby rendering the animal immobile. It knocks the animal out and it never regains consciousness. Of course its not 100%....nothing in this game of shooting animals is. I believe in that cedar knoll study in SC.of a 170 deer shot in the high shoulder/scapula the average distance traveled after the shot was 3 yards. I feel its one of the best shots for areas where you will have trouble finding the deer if it travels far due to standing water wet bogs, heavy darkgrowth regrowth areas, extreme dense cover or briars.

I consider ethics on shot placement to be according to a hunters ability and rifle as well as conditions, distance, movement of the animal, and a host of other factors. Its just a fact that many lack the truthfulness or common sense to know when its beyond their ability. I know some hunters that are quite capable of extreme accuracy with shot placement and are quick to pass a shot they aren't sure of.....I know others that are blasting before the gun is even shouldered properly. No one answer for everyone, thats for sure.



Dave

quote:

packrattusnongratus
one of us

Posted Sun Dec 02 2007 7:48 AM Hide Post
I just remembered why Tom is on ignore.

Posts: 591 | Location: North of the Zambesi | Registered: 28 May 2002

My sentiments exactly!
Our "peaty stuff guzzling friend" from wonderful state of Texas has already stated clearly in one of the volumes of posts on this thread that he enjoys setting down at the computer with a snoot full of "peaty stuff" (whatever the hell that is? probably Old Crow) and getting people riled up for entertainment, that is a good time to him.
(Quote by Tom)
What's the problem with me amusing myself with somebody being silly and calling them on it? I do it for entertainment purposes and actually find it quite relaxing.
(Quote)
To what end? Sure not why I come here. Not reading any of his posts makes this a much better, albeit "way tired" thread (except for the actual debate of the original topic).
From the responses of those not hit with the "idiot proof" button (I've only ever done it 3 times since 2003), I take it he's making a comparison between my elk shot this year and his "supposed" 300 yard zebra head shot? If I read the others responses right he's then saying that shooting a broadside cow elk for food, that's standing still in tall grass with only the top of the back and neck completely clear in that neck off a bi-pod at 260 yards with a .300 Win Mag is unsporting. "BUT" shooting a zebra in the noggin at 300 yards with a .223 "is" sporting??? How do you (or more importantly WHY would you?) argue with someone who sees things like that? Just might be a little peaty stuff involved here .
Like I said, it's like trying to discuss physics with a gerbil! I refuse to get into a battle of wits with a completely unarmed opponent! Thank you site providers for that wonderful "idiot proof" button.

As to the topic and the "Nuclear question" Hot Core asked (good one there buddy ) , that picture does indeed illustrate a lot. My favorite shot is indeed the far and away most advised shot which is broadside standing with the vertical crosshair right behind the front leg and the horizontal one about half way or a little better up the body. I prefer the lower lung shot to all others but I do shoot enough to be completely comfortable with other shots "under the right conditions". My .300 Mag load is a 190 grain Hornady Interlock over enough RL22 to chrono 3,050ish fps on repeated chrono'ings. Here's the last two 3 shot groups fired for sight in this year (only two actually), the rifle is a reworked Remington 700 with a Harris S bipod and a 3.5X10 Leupold VariXIII. 1st shot completely clean and cold was high and right (just like always) followed by the next three.



I lowered it a titch and shot the next three. Time to go hunting.



Laying prone off the bipod with a very slight breeze straight in my face I was completely comfortable shooting at a still-standing, broadside, elk neck at 260 Leica'd yards (which is about exactly this rifles zero).
I was comfortable even though I'm well aware a .300 Win Mag is unsporting on elk .
Interestingly enough our Texas friend has picked Hot Core and myself as his primary tormentors even though (sad to say) my position in this has actually agreed a lot more with his and not my friend Hot Core's , that fact hasn't gotten through to him yet??? Perhaps some more "peaty stuff" involvement. Hot Core and I are still getting along fine, kinda strange huh???
Have a good one guys.