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Highly unlikely because a person has to actually have an interest in listening and learning to learn anything and you seem to be lacking in both. You have an opinion. So do other people. Bully for you! May your next heart-lung shot be an accidental gut shot that crawls off and dies in a very inconvenient place for you to recover it. Then you can come here and tell us why you shouldn't aim for the heart or lungs because you might whiff the shot so heart-lung shots are bad too. For a third installment you can tell us that people shouldn't use monofilament and hooks for fishing because sometimes the line breaks and then the poor fish goes around with a damaged jaw all because some angler didn't have the sense to use a speargun but then the speargun story would lead to a story about how you can shoot fish wrong with a spear gun. Maybe everybody should stay home and shoot at paper targets of deer with airsoft guns? Of course that would run the risk of putting an eye out. Also, what are your opinions of taking head shots on paper deer targets with airsoft guns? Is it truly fair to the sheets of paper? All the best, tom PS, It could just as easily be a question of how long a deer holds it's head DOWN as up, depending on particulate circus dances. | |||
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Head shots are often the refuge of the recoil shy shooter that just has to use a .223 or .22-250 for deer hunting. | |||
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Head shots are also the refuge of the non-recoil shy shooter that had a .375 H&H with him with express sights and a .223 with a High Power Swornofki scoper on it and the animal was too far away for a reliable express sight picture. What's next? We gonna compare dicks? | |||
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Take a deep breath my friend it's only a discussion. Perhaps a rationally expressed counter opinion might make a point better than remarks about a johnson contest? Just a thought. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Take a deep breath my friend and realize that I'm quite relaxed but amused at people  as long as they have and I'm enjoying  the pot of the bigots. I even gave a rational reason for a non-recoil shy person to use a head shot with a smaller caliber.My horribly brutal neighbor shot a doe in the head with a .222 yesterday morning out his kitchen window that died right there and is already butchered and packed up in his freezer. Legal tag, his property, only one animal harmed, and not in a brutal way. Would he have been a better man to use his .300RUM that he likes to take along when we go stalking and blown it's ribs to bits? Some people hunt for food, not to prove they are Rambo or the Great White Hunter or the KING of all hunting ethics. | |||
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I'm sure I would take 'dead cert' head shot. But, I do not think that way. I did once take an easy head shot at a hare. I had a choice of shots - it was just sitting there. But I got clever and went for the head. I hit it in the jaw! I did find it quite soon and finished it off but that memory has stuck with me. I take heart/lung shots now - and only absolute certain hits. I'm just not good enough to take risks - nor lucky enough! That's just my choice for me. Regards 303Guy | |||
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If the situation presents itself, a neck shot is in order, but not a head shot. YMMV Don | |||
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The a quick kill or nothing line is pure unadulterated bullshit. Even facing straight on or away it's possible to shoot an eye off, luckily most deer that have an eye exploded are pretty stunned for a while (you get the drift as to how I know this....  ) | |||
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I used to think people came to these Boards to help the Beginners, share some first-hand experiences, have a bit of fun laughing with each other and to learn some new tricks. There is no requirement that we all do things the exact same way, that is what makes the Board worthwhile - varied experiences. At the same time, it is the responsibility of the Board members to speak out against things they believe to be wrong. They know it is wrong from personal experience, because their Elders taught them well, or from having witnessed a situation where something has gone wrong that did not need to happen. Now I see there is at least one Board member who apparently wants his "peers(?)" to ignore and disrespect his opinions. Braggart posts are the first clue, and the brags are always done by folks who know the least about the subject. They usually get laughed off the Board, or simply ignored and then they go away to taint some other Board. Defending loonacy is simply an interim step in the process. | |||
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   Thats all I've got to say about that. | |||
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I like this part the best "it is the responsibility of the Board members to speak out against things they believe to be wrong". I will exercise my responsibility to the other members of this board and speak out. You are wrong!!! You are ususally wrong and you continue to be wrong. Wow that felt good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tom, a meaniful discussion of opinions with Pitiful aka "Hot Core" is a exercise in flustration after all his opinions carry more weight because they belong to him and his experience is superior to others. Move on , don't worry about his comments, he's a lightweight.. There are a lot of guys on this board willing to be helpful and share experiences and that is what makes this board fun. | |||
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I have culled a lot of plainsgame animals in Africa. As a kid on a ranch my dad had leased in Mexico where I fed a fence line gang with deer, I have found head and neck shots to work at close to medium range most of the time.I Also shot deer for Black Game Game Reserve as a kid in Texas for stomach study by the biologist, a lot of deer in a short time. That said let me warn sportsmen that it is very easy to break the jaw, knock out an eye, shoot them through the nose under "hunting conditions". As to the neck shots it is easy to miss the vitals such as the spine or jugler vein, and with small calibers you may blow up a bullets and not get needed penetration. IMO a true hunter will always take a lung/heart shot and give himself some latitude for a miss. Don't let your ego cloud your surmised ability to shoot because if your really experienced then you know a lot of things can go wrong at the shot.... Culling and hunting btw are two completely different diciplines. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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So somebody bought you a mirror?
And you are well on your way, but it sure is funny to watch you run counter to hundreds of yeards of hunting experience. "My name is HOT HEAD and the only reasonable way to hunt anything is to do it exactly like me...all circumstances are the same and there should be no variation in shots taken..." You like to hear yourself talk and I like to make fun of what you say, so, as far as entertainment value, you are pretty far up there. I've never seen somebody with such a hardon about something as you seem to have outside of gun control nuts." I think you are a closeted animal rights activist. | |||
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i love how many who say NOT to head shoot follow it up w/ a story how they tried one and screwed it up. I have head shot deer and will again. at a distance of 50 yards the 2" target is equal to a 6" target at 300 yards furthermore at 50 yards there is not bullet drop, windage issue or time in flight. the head shot is a very simple practical shot if you are skilled in doing it. i am lucky to have had uncle Sam provide me w/ ample CNS shot training. Given the opportunity ill drop a 168 AMax into a nostril all day long, out to 70 yards or so. | |||
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Excellent post Ray!  Spoken with the voice of experience, wish more posters would pay attention. You should write a book. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Spoken like a true recoil pussy. | |||
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Spoken like somebody who doesn't have any idea who they are speaking with. I'm a big recoil pussy...Which is why I mostly shoot big bores and am in contact with jeffe to see about usage of a reamer to build myself a .550 to go with my .577s and Lotts. Keep digging your hole. You haven't hit China yet but you sure are getting close. You should maybe look at your .sig image that says "EVOLVE" and contemplate doing it. | |||
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I don't take head shots, never have, probably never will but if the guy hunting next to me wants to then that is up to him no problem for me. Steve E...... NRA Patron Life Member GOA Life Member North American Hunting Club Life Member USAF Veteran | |||
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If a deep breath doesn't work perhaps you could talk to the doctor about adjusting your meds? I repeat, "it's only a discussion". Hot Core is right, whichever side of this or any other issue ya fall on. If you believe it's important ya have an obligation to speak up, whats unnecessary is the fighting and arguing if someone else's opinion differs from yours. I know cause I have as much problem with it as most and more than many but I'll continue to work on it. Have a nice day  ."If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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What's the problem with me amusing myself with somebody being silly and calling them on it? I do it for entertainment purposes and actually find it quite relaxing. Have a nice day as well. | |||
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I continue to be amazed at the responses to this topic, apparently sanctimony runs wild among the AR crowd. I hope it's not catching. The anti-head shot crowd (because it might wound a deer and let him run off to die) are falling right into PETA's trap. The next logical step is, any shooting of deer can lead to wounding and suffering animals, therefore stop shooting deer. Morons. There's no way to prove it, but I'd bet serious money that there are MORE, and I'll volunteer MANY MORE, deer wounded and lost on a per capita basis by hunters who don't take headshots than those that do. Why? Simple, most of the hunters who take headshots know what they're doing. Many "regular" deer hunters don't and go out in the fields with bore sighted only rifles and shoot AT a deer, not at the ribs, shoulder, etc. They don't have a clue if they hit one and if they hit one, they don't know where they hit it, can't call a shot, don't have an aiming point, etc. etc. I repeat, and totally agree with Steve E., if you don't like headshots, don't take them, but telling someone else they shouldn't is none of your business and is distinctly NOT helpful to our hunting tradition. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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GatorG-right on the money or Right between the eyes! Walt | |||
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Yes I know exactly what I am speaking with and I am really underwhelmed.... quoting you know someone means that you know someone.... BFD | |||
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If you are shooting and release,head shot is probably not a good idea. | |||
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A really condescending and yet insulting tone to a person you don't know a fooking thing about except that you disagree about a hunting method with him? Stand up and the point won't go over your head next time. I mostly build (yes build) big bores and shoot big bores and you're calling me a recoil pussy? Because you were offended that I pointed out you were continually trying to start a pissing contest? You still have a long way to evolve. Maybe you reload but you could use rebooting your brain while you are at it. | |||
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Hey Hot core, what was that you said about the bragging part? Fortunately the fine hosts at the site here provided a feature to deal with the guys that don't come here to discuss shooting and hunting but just for the malicious fun of stirring the pot and spreading hate and discontent with the silliness anyone displays by having a diverging opinion from theirs. It's called the "ignore" feature, gotta love it! Bye Tom  .No sense responding to this cause your not here any more  .To all the others I'm in the I don't do it but have and believe ya all gotta find what your comfortable with. My personal choice was based on several things and meat quality was high on the list of em. Missing jaw bones was right up there. As I said, my standard for me! All you other fellas get to build your own set. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Ignore function works both ways. No point in trying to educate a fool because it just makes you look foolish even to try. bye montdoug bye imightreload bye hothead | |||
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Hey Montdoug, Well, I'm a BIG enough man to admit when I'm WRONG. No..., there are two. ----- I completely understand what you are saying about the actual "Ignore Feature" in the Board Software. And I do believe it is a blessing for some users of the Board. However, I'd encourage you to reconsider your decision to put them on Ignore.  I caught one of them posting the most ignorant and illogical trash that I'd seen in 5-6 months on the Reloading Board(I believe that is where it was) and called him on it. It was quite apparent he knows so little about Reloading that he is a Hazard to himself and anyone who happens to be in his vicinity. People like that need to have their posts challenged and corrected by people that actually know better. It needs to be done so the Beginners are not mislead by their complete lack of knowledge. Why anyone thinks they can enter these Boards with no first-hand experience and believe they can reel off a line of complete loonacy without being taken to task, simply shows they are way in over their heads. Neither has the bare basic knowledge to even mount a defense of their positions, so they go to their strength - ignorance. So, I'd encourage you, and everyone else, to keep their posts visible. I can't possibly catch all the loonacy they will post for awhile. Once they realize they will not be able to post their complete ignorance, they will soon depart. It has always worked that way, and always will. ----- I completely agree based on over 5-decades of Tracking and Recovering Deer. I disagree for the same reason as above. I can also agree with the "wording" you chose here. But, a bit of help from people that know better, combined with just a bit of proper encouragement, can get most of those folks headed in the correct direction. ----- I seriously doubt Gatogordo would encourage one of the people he just described "to take Head Shots". But, he apparently does not understand the impact his words can have on the Beginners. I believe some will look at his posts, think about what they read and determine, "Heck, if he can do it - I know for sure I CAN DO IT!" Perhaps once he (Gatogordo) understands where I am coming from, he would agree that Head Shots are not something to Brag about. ---- Which brings us back to the "pair".  The question to Montdoug is, "Do you really believe ANYONE, with common sense, will pay any attention at all to them?" | |||
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Hot Core: I don't know what the hell "bragging" you're talking about. I don't recall bragging about head shots or anything else. Head shots are an efficient and clean way to kill game that you want to eat, if conditions are right for taking one. I much prefer cleaning and handling head shot deer myself. (BTW, to the statement that lung shot venison tastes bette...bah....with the exception of Kosher beef, 99.9% of every steak eaten in this country is killed with a "head shot", actually a pnuematic hammer. I haven't noticed anyone turning down our prime steaks lately because they weren't bled out correctly) Not to mention the hide doesn't have a hole in it if you want to save it. Get off your high horse. If you don't like head shots fine, some of us do. There is not one reason I've heard that has a logical basis that head shots, taken within the parameters of the shooter's ability, his equipment, and the size of the target, and distance to it, are any worse and are probably better than lung shots at longer ranges. After all, you can miss completely with a head shot and the animal is completely unharmed. Much of the time you miss with a lung shot and the animal is gut shot or has a bad leg wound and is often lost. I'm not suggesting head shots are superior, but they are damn sure not inferior if the shooter knows his limitations. I've got a 13 year old, he's a pretty fair shot for his age and has killed at least a dozen deer. I tell him to shot them in the heart or lungs. He does. When he gets older and steadier, if he wants to shoot them in the head or neck, that's fine, if he doesn't that's fine too. As for influencing other shooters, that's their decision and they have to accept the responsibility for their choices, just as I do. I doubt that I've got much influence over anyone besides my family, nor do I want any. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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tom' wrote:
That statement speaks volumes about your character -- or lack thereof. Hoping an animal suffers simply because you disagree with another poster is the height or immaturity and selfishness. As to the topic of the thread, I don't head-shoot deer but don't chastise those who do. However, I must add that many shooters I come in contact with do not have the discipline or skill to successfully pull off a head or neck shot at anything beyond point blank range. (Many simply over-estimate their abilities.) I put thousands of rounds downrange during the course of a year, and I have guns that are capable of tiny groups at long range. I have confidence in my ability and trust my gear, and yet I still choose the heart-lung shot at nearly every opportunity. But again, this all boils down to a personal choice... Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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It's true. Sanctimony here killed the cat. And it was mostly absurd cat stories far different from some of the true game killing stories here, like killing giraffes, zebras, hundreds of ducks and doves per day, spearing pigs, and the like. Perhaps there was a plan to these posts. A carefully organized plan. Close the cat forum? Close the deer forum? Be that as it may, I kill deer with headshots whenever the opportunity comes with the gun at hand. Now as to cats...... "Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you" G. ned ludd | |||
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In the earlier post you couldn't shoot a rifle with express sights so you picked a .223 for a head shot. Can you not shoot a big bore or can you not use a round big enough to kill without a head shot? | |||
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Yes! With me, it was rats with an airgun. I learned a lot from shooting rats - I shot them by the thousand! Regards 303Guy | |||
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You are right. I have done it and I have screwed it up. If I were confident enough, I would do it again. My choice, for me, is based on my experience with my shooting ability (or lack thereof). A finishing shot is a different matter - if it lifts its head off the ground it gets one in the brain! I am guessing you are the same - only you have a far higher skill level than I do. There is another consideration. My rifle will put three out of five shots into a matchbox at 100m. But one of the five will be 1.5 inches away from point of aim. That does not inspire head shot confidence in me! Regards 303Guy | |||
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I'm right there by your side catching those with all the loonacy. Wait a sec.................. You're the one with the most loonacy in your comments and who the hell appointed you "Hall Monitor". Opinions are like assholes.... everyone has one. Experience is different oh wait a sec...........you are the one that stated that 50 times of an observed event proves nothing. LOONACY ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |||
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I hear ya Hot Core and ya make your usual good points but it appears to me that all the good intentions and actual shooting and reloading experience in the world won't "Idiot Proof" the internet no matter how hard ya try. You and I both know that a lot of us come here to discuss shooting and hunting politely with other knowledgeable shooters and not derive our enjoyment from irritating others and arguing just because we are anonymous here on the net and we don't have to worry about some dude activating our dental plan when we insult them as we would in person. I'm willing to bet a good number of the serious insulter's are much more reserved in person when they are in harms way. Case in point would be that it appears we have slightly varying opinion on the head shooting issue but neither of us nor a number of others has felt compelled to call people names or stir poop just to be doing it. You have a good one. P.S. just to throw gas on the flames I thought I'd post a picture of the cow elk I shot Wednesday. She's hanging in the garage, note the blood shot meat on the stub end of her neck. That's where the 190 Hornady Interlock out of my .300 Win Mag hit. She was deader than fried chicken before she hit the ground.  What can I say, they were in tall grass and heads and necks were all that was clear . Private land elk that live on alfalfa and barley (WAY tasty), she was right beside a spindly 6 point bull but as I've mentioned before I'm a meat hunter at heart."If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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I do believe I see "Blood" on the clinton end of that Elk. You sure you hit the correct end??? Even the legs look to be "shot off". Have you been taking shooting lessons from the two loosers?????  Congratulations on a fine looking Elk! | |||
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As you well know good buddy most of them big talkers couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a banjo ! As you aptly pointed out it's all hot air and imagination and no shortage of magazine inspired opinion based on  .Hence my inclination to just "ignore" em. It's like discussing external ballistics with a gerbil. As to the Clintonized cow. The Clintonistas would like all of us to be just like that cow: "No brain to think with, a butt reamed out the size of the Holland tunnel and just hanging around waiting to be slaughtered"! Anyway I took her to the butcher shop yesterday and hanging like that with no head, legs or anything just carcass hide and meat she weighed 432lbs. I'll get about half that back cut, wrapped and deboned. Tasty chuckins! Wish ya lived closer and we'd have us some Loin steaks for chow and resolve the ills of the Earth  .So, hunting seasons over (which is ok by me, elk hunting seems a lot more like work the older I get), freezer'll be stuffed full and then some when she comes back. Now it's back to sub-.22 caliber wildcats and terminating the lease on a few of those yodeling sheep munching bastiges! I'll be using rifles all the self proclaimed experts will tell ya aren't up to the task. I sure hope all those dead critters don't find that out and come back from the other side  .You know what they say about wrestling with pigs Hot Core? I know it to be true from having done more than my share of it. Not gonna die on that hill again! (I hope ). Hasta."If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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That sounds like and looks like some fine meat to me. I would take you up on the invite if I was closer. We tend to BBQ Pigs down here, so we won't be seeing the likes of "your buddies" anytime in the future.Seriously doubt I'd enjoy your weather. I tend to prefer sweat in my eyes and donating blood to the skeeters and Flying Teeth(Sand Fleas as they used to be known on Paradise Island). Enjoy one of those Elk Steaks for me. Semper Fi | |||
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the only real point is that the original question was phrased in such a grotesquely slanted way that the OP MUST have a journalism degree from UC Berkley and must also have an itch to irritate people. Now, I'll go back to my reloading 223ammo with which I plan to headshoot a DOE (no antlers to shoot off stupid) AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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