I had never given a thought of using my Remington XR100 in .204 for deer. I might have been a bit hasty. During barrel break in I took one box of all available 204 factory ammo to get a starting point on the type bullet my rifle likes. I somehow ended up with a box of Hornady 45 grain Spire Point ammo. Bottom line is wasn't as tight grouping as most of the Balistic Tip type ammo, but it easily shot 3/4" groups.

I'm not sure if Hornady made this ammo with a light skinned jacket with varmints in mine, or if it's just a smaller vserions of the standard spire point.

If it's NOT a varmint load only, that bullet should jelly a deers lungs & heart with that blistering speed. I shot a few groups at 300 yds on a .5" plywood target. It cut nice clean holes with no hint of seperation, and made a bowl size crater in the rock solid clay berm behind the topic.

Has anyone tried this ammo? If I knew of someone that had taken a large yote with this bullet, it would make me feel better.
Hornady is in their answer your email when they can stage, so not luck from any info from them

Any info appreciated

Gene

The .204 is great at what it's designed for, Varmints. Why any one would even consider it on deer size animals is beyond me and I currently have 5 .20 caliber rifles with a custom chambered .204 being one of em, I love small calibers. I also love hunting and the animals you hunt deserve better than being used in an experiment to see how small a bullet can be used to kill them when there are boo-coo adequate rounds available for the purpose.
That bullet was designed to be used on coyotes and such, not big game.

At best, it's a stunt. At worst, you're talking about a lost or wounded deer.

Move up to a caliber/bullet that was designed for deer and relegate the .204 to varmints.

how about a 17 bee??

Be nice. How's a guy gonna know if he don't ask.

My answer would be no don't use it.

Terry

It ceases to amaze me that every newcomer to a forum is assumed to be a newbie to shooting. I simply asked if the bullet in question was made to frangible varmint specifications, or Standard Spire Point construction. I said if the bullet was NOT a varmint only projectile, it should jelly the deer's vitals. I also asked if anyone had used the bullet on a yote. I wanted to see what kind of terminal performance the bullet had on a yote.
Did I ever say I was hunting deer with that load? I said I might have been a bit hasty to rule the bullet out as a deer load. Since I'm a "rookie" please let me respond to everyone that took time to answer me.

montdoug
one of us
Posted 29 October 2007 08:52 Hide Post

The .204 is great at what it's designed for, Varmints. Why any one would even consider it on deer size animals is beyond me and I currently have 5 .20 caliber rifles with a custom chambered .204 being one of em, I love small calibers. I also love hunting and the animals you hunt deserve better than being used in an experiment to see how small a bullet can be used to kill them when there are boo-coo adequate rounds available for the purpose.
That bullet was designed to be used on coyotes and such, not big game.


---Shoot Safe---montdoug
Posts: 592 | Location: Bozeman Montana | Registered: 04 April 2003


montdoug: Thanks for letting me know the bullet was designed for Varmints. I checked
Hornady's web page for that info. I guess I missed it. As for your statement
"why anyone would even consider it on deer size animals is beyond you",
you must have a pretty tall ladder to that pedestal your setting on. I would
think someone with your lofty wisdom would know it's just not possible to
hold the entire shooting community to your standards of acceptable hunting
practices. I agree there are boo-coo adequate rounds available for whitetails.
Maybe you should take a trip to my reloading barn. If look closely on the
wall, behind the 4 MEC & 4 Dillon reloaders, you might find dies from the 204
up to 7 remmag. If that's not enough, look behind the Hornady single stage
where you will find handgun dies from 32acp to 44remmag. If you ad the 6
extra conversion kits for my 3 Dillon SDB's, to the wall full of rifle dies, I think I
might find something that falls into your "adequate" range. If I could impose
another question on you, where do you rate the current additions of 223 bolt
actions rifles designed for newcomers to whitetail hunting? Is that an acceptable
round for deer? I kind of enjoy watching newcomers on TV take their first deer.
If I remember correctly, the 223 bullet is only 10 grains heavier than the 204
bullet, but its close to 1000fps slower than the 204. As for experimenting with
the 204 on deer, that was never the plan. I asked if anyone if they had
tried the 204 on coyotes. Is there that much difference between a wiry yote
and a whitetail deer that might way 30 pounds more? I think not.
Bobby Tomek: If I were planning on a stunt, do you think I would have asked the questions
on the 204? If I wanted to pull a stunt, I would have shot first, then
I could have claimed any distance shot. Hell, let's make it 2400 yards, on
the run. Then I could claim the 204 superior to Barrett's 40 and 50 caliber
rifles.
butchlok: I prefer the fireball over the bee.
TC1: Thank you.

Now lets get to the reason for such a long rebuttal. Before you assume someone is a Wal-Mart gun buying rookie, that thinks standard deviation is a weaker version of a Magnum
deviation, you might want to consider that there could be extenuating circumstances behind a question. Read on, and you might get an idea of what I mean.

I have been shooting for 49 years, and reloading since 1984. I have hunted whitetail deer in most of the southeast, Canada and Mexico. I have competed in all forms of combat & defensive handgun, skeet, trap and sporting clays, centerfire benchrest. I reload EVERY thing I shoot except rimfire. Let's address the extenuating circumstances now.
Since 2001, I have had seven surgeries, the worst being to repair my right shoulder. I had to have the labrum attached to the bone, and the rotator cuff repaired. I had the range of motion of an 85 year old man. I was in a splint for 3 months before I could even start therapy, and 6 months until I could lift a gallon of milk. I am now on 100% total disability. I worked my way up to being able to shoot rimfire benchrest this summer. Is this starting to make sense now? The only big game gun I have ever used was a custom Winchester Classic Stainless in 7 RemMag. I had a muzzle brake & Simms recoil pad installed, hoping I could still use the rifle on the ONE hunt I was able to afford this year.
As for the ethics of humane kills you guys reamed me about, lets discuss that. I do not hunt with a gun unless it shoots .5" or better at 100 yards. It took me 6 months of testing my handloads until I achieved what I wanted. The gun performs best using 62 grains of "orange can" powder.(I don't post my reload data), using Federal brass, Remington 9.5 primers with the OL .005 out from the lands. I took the gun to the range last week, hoping the muzzle brake & recoil pad would help. I shot it twice, and It actually brought tears to my eyes. Don't even start on me about getting scope bit. I use nothing buy Leupold Optics.
At the moment the rifle has a VariX II 6 x 18 on it.
Let's sum this up, because I'm really getting upset. IF I would happen to hunt this year, I have these choices since the 7remmag is out. The only other rifles I own are a CZ 17HMR,a Romy AK in 7.62 x 39, AR15 Custom with EOTech sight, and the Remington 204.
So there you have it. I was just crunching some numbers on what I have to choose from.
The AK is plenty of rifle, but I can't see well enough with the iron sights. The 223 with 55 grains Ballistic Tips would work inside of 100 yards, but I don't have a scope on it, but the 223 isn't enough if the 204 is too weak according to your responses. Why don't I just buy a Remington 700 in 243 you ask? Sure! lets go buy one. That would leave me $150 to live on next month (try living on Social Security, it's a blast). So there you have it. I ask a question, and I catch a can of crap. How dare you accuse me of pulling a stunt. As for the rest, when your asked a question, you might want to engage your brain before you come off with the arrogant answers. Let me ask a question of my own. If it applies to you, you'll know it. Let's get back to the small calibers & stopping power. I think the masses that lost their lives to the lowly
firearm created by Eugene Stoner might beg to differ.

Gene Cowan
NRA Certified Instructor:
Basic Pistol,Personal Protection, Home firearms safety
State of North Carolina Certified:
Concealed Carry Instruction (Retired)

quote:

Posted 29 October 2007 20:59
Be nice. How's a guy gonna know if he don't ask.

My answer would be no don't use it.

Terry

Excellent point Terry and your right, let me rephrase my post. I meant it to read..."What Terry said!"

P.S.
The reason I assumed you had very little experience is your asking the question about using the .204 on deer, if that were the case I agree with Terry my response was to harsh. Realizing now however that you indeed have a vast wealth of experience and posses every reloading tool known to man and have an bona-fide arsenal of firearms at your disposal leads me back to my original answer. Why someone with all the incredible experience you have, a virtual Zen Master of reloading and shooting would even ask the question is beyond me.
P.S. again.
The P.S. was added after reading your extremely impressive response. Prior to that I agreed with Terry now I'm back where I started.

Sonny

Don't let the bastards get you down. I've found the most interesting question to ask on this forum is "What is your EXPERIENCE with....." rather than "What is your OPINION....." As you know, opinions are a lot like assholes, everyone has one. But experience is something else, Some posters have no experience at all on the topic that you start but possess a plethra of opinions gathered from magazines and discussions, etc. My EXPERIENCE with .224 caliber rifles, mainly a 22-250 but perhaps a .223 in the future, is that they have performed in an excellent fahion for me on mule deer here in Idaho. I've tended to use the .224 bullets on the lighter side driven at high velocities and have had some impressive kills. Ususally a guy with a small caliber shoots it a lot more then his larger guns, is more familiar with it's performance, and feels more comfortable taking the shot with that rifle than others. I don't have any EXPERIENCE with the .204 caliber, just with the 22-250 and the .223 but would guess that with the right combination of bullet, powder, and performance should work out to be ok. Let us know what turns out!!!!!!!

Gene-You ask a question but then seem to have all the answers when you don't like the responses. And then you say: "Did I ever say I was hunting deer with that load?"

Well, judging by the content of your first post, yes, it seemed you were leaning towards deer hunting with the .204. After all, you wrote:


"I'm not sure if Hornady made this ammo with a light skinned jacket with varmints in mine, or if it's just a smaller vserions of the standard spire point...If it's NOT a varmint load only, that bullet should jelly a deers lungs & heart with that blistering speed...
If I knew of someone that had taken a large yote with this bullet, it would make me feel better. Any info appreciated"

But since your tempered reply indicates you have ALL the answers and don't need our advice, I, too, want to know: why ask it in the first place???

As to using a .223 for deer, at least there are a few bullets designed just for that purpose. Do you see a factory-loaded Partition, TSX or Power Point in .20 caliber???

No, I don't feel the .223 is an ideal deer cartidge, but there's no denying many have been taken with one.

Lastly, you either have bionic coyotes or miniature deer in your area if the weight difference between mature animals is only 30 pounds...

quote:

Posted 30 October 2007 00:44 Hide Post
Sonny

Don't let the bastards get you down. I've found the most interesting question to ask on this forum is "What is your EXPERIENCE with....." rather than "What is your OPINION....." As you know, opinions are a lot like assholes, everyone has one. But experience is something else, Some posters have no experience at all on the topic that you start but possess a plethra of opinions gathered from magazines and discussions, etc. My EXPERIENCE with .224 caliber rifles, mainly a 22-250 but perhaps a .223 in the future, is that they have performed in an excellent fahion for me on mule deer here in Idaho. I've tended to use the .224 bullets on the lighter side driven at high velocities and have had some impressive kills. Ususally a guy with a small caliber shoots it a lot more then his larger guns, is more familiar with it's performance, and feels more comfortable taking the shot with that rifle than others. I don't have any EXPERIENCE with the .204 caliber, just with the 22-250 and the .223 but would guess that with the right combination of bullet, powder, and performance should work out to be ok. Let us know what turns out!!!!!!!

Very interesting observation, or am I supposed to say opinion because you have no actual experience with it?
About all I shoot anymore except during deer, elk and antelope season is .17 and .20 calibers, we have many species of varmint around here and I shoot a lot. As I mentioned in my first post I have five .20 caliber rifles, one custom chambered .204 with zero free-bore and 4 full on wildcats including one on the .22 BR case with the shoulders blown out to 40 degrees and necked to .20 that pushes a 40 grain V-Max to 4,200+ fps. So whatever degree of experience you want to give that my personal feeling is it goes a bit beyond mere opinion.
.20 caliber bullets are designed to be extremely frangible, the 45 grainer was designed to be less so because the fur hunters wanted a bullet that wouldn't hydraulic "on entry" and ruin pelts. Not opinion, fact.
In a perfect world if a guy were to sneak a .20 caliber bullet between the ribs of a whitetail and not connect with any bone it would indeed blow up in side and bring on a quick demise I'd guess, as I've never done it that "is" opinion.
Fact two, we don't live in a perfect world.
If you hit a rib or especially a heavy bone like a shoulder the bullet will come unwrapped on the surface causing a huge surface wound and a slow lingering death and that too is not opinion it's fact three.
Now what I don't have experience with is the size of the Whitetails in the South and East. I do know the 5X5 whitetail buck I shot last year here in Montana weighed I'd guess 200+ lbs field dressed and there is a heck of a bunch of difference between that and the 25 to 35lb coyote that 45 grain Hornady was designed to shoot. If you think I'm full of it call Hornady at 800-338-3220. Ask for Bob, Doug Derner, Lonnie Hummel or any of the techs and and ask for their "opinion", they make the bullets in question and their a great bunch of guys.

I'd be really surprised if the 45 gr Hornady was a game bullet, given that many states draw the line at 23 caliber or better for big game. Others that allow 22 caliber centerfires allow nothing smaller. There are only a few that don't seem to care at all. If your state allows it the 204 it ought to work as well on big game as the 17 caliber centerfires...all it will take is a perfectly executed head shot. Me, I'd use the AR with factory Winchester 64 gr Powerpoints (which are game bullets and do work fine on whitetails).

I can’t imagine using a 204 on anything bigger then a coyote. Just because I haven’t shot at a deer with one and experienced the wounding of that animal, doesn’t mean I didn’t know what was going to happen before I pulled the trigger. There is a thing (some people don’t have it) called “respect†for the animal they hunt, making sure the hunter kills it in the most human way they can,,,, the 204 is not a deer rifle.

Hey Gene, I have absolutely ZERO First Hand Experience with the 204Rug. Also have a lot of Kills with the 223Rem, but none on Deer. If that disqualifies me from trying to help you out, just skip right on over the rest of my post, let me know you are not interested, and I'll Delete my response.
-----

I'm also not a fan of Weenie Bullets and Woosie Cartridges used on Deer size critters, regardless of how many Inadequate Cartridge Users clam the Woosie Cartridges Kill great and is all a person needs. I strongly disagree with their pitiful choice and lack of proper Peer Guidance. My First Hand Experience with Adequate Cartridges and Bullets, shot by regular everyday Hunters, as well as Expert Marksmen indicates things occasionally go wrong even though the shot is executed properly.
-----

How about using your 7mmRemMag "down-loaded" with a 120gr Nosler B-Tip from your other shoulder? If carrying it is a problem, then it is time to wait until you heal.

The 120gr B-Tip is not a good bullet for driving through a row of Beans, but I've Killed a couple of the "old"(100-count) box fulls of Deer with them. That was with a B-Tip Design at least 2-generations back. I was reluctant to try them through both shoulders, but they normally made an Exit when going through the Off-Side Shoulder at 7mm-08 velocities. The latest Generation should be even better, but I also have no First Hand Experience with it.

Perhaps the old IMR Powder Pamplets would be a good place to look for a Down-Load with the "SR" Powders or on the Hodgdon web site with their "60% of a MAX Load of H4895".

If that is still too much Recoil, grab a Camera and go shoot them. There comes a time when a persons Health or "lack of Age" just make Hunting improper. If that is the situation, suck it up, smell the Gun Powder and remember the Good Times.

Best of luck to you and I hope you get well quickly.

Shooting at plywood and judging how a bullet will perform on a live animal is just poor judgement.

I suspect what will happen is you will get some lightening type kills with that little bullet and the deer will drop on the spot, then you will hit one the same way, same spot and he will run a hundred or more yards crawl in a hole or whatever, and you won't have a blood trail and you will lose his tracks for whatever reason and thats easy to do especially when he gets with other deer or the bullet will blow up on the shoulder blade or break a jaw, whatever...and you will have then wounded a noble animal..

I shot a lot of deer with light rifles early on in my mispent youth on the ranch and I had some such failures as above with the Bee and Hornet, I then limited myself to a .222 with a 60 gr. Hornady at about 2800 FPS, shots under 100 yards, and not take iffy shots,as a good limit for light guns on deer, even that is not the best of deer calibers but it worked for me without incident and my kids and grandkids have used the .223 and 22-250 with same bullet very successfully.

The other thing is the light fast bullets jelly up a whole side of deer and just make a big mess. A .458 Win just cuts a big ole 45 cal hole through them and lets all the blood out in a hurry..better option? probably.

Never a good deal to use to little a gun on big game. better to be over powered..but that's just my opinnion..

I only use the 22s for young kids and close shots today..They seem to shoot them very well and don't flinch, so there is a place for them in the deer hunting fields.

I loaded up some Sierra 100 gr ammo on the low end of velocity. They shot well, but the recoil still has me hurts. Even with the 150 grain loads, I don't think I'm flinching. It hurts like hell but it's still grouping under an inch.
The shoulder is as good as it's going to get. That's why I quit Centerfire Benchrest matches and started shooting IR5050 & ARA 22 matches. It did wonders for my range of motion. I have been taking turns with the 17HMR, 223,204 & 7.62 x 39 in my practice sessions, trying to increase my recoil tolerance. I have another month yet before rifle season. Hopefully by then I can handle the 7mag in the stand. I won't feel the recoil if there's a deer i the scope.

Thanks for the info.

This is an interesting waste of time.

Even though you're deer down there probably weigh as much as a really healthy dog, I wouldn't use the 204 Ruger on one. Why? Sure it will work, but there's no reason to. It's all about shot placement anyways and using a well-constucted bullet.

A dude up here got fined last winter for killing a calf moose with a pellet gun after the moose was destroying his garden patch or some bullshit.

Hunting is the subject here. Not defending a carrot patch with a bee-bee gun.

quote:

Hunting is the subject here. Not defending a carrot patch with a bee-bee gun.

Actually it's taking the original question to it's most illogical conclusion and personally I think it makes a valid point. Using a .20 caliber varmint rifle to hunt big game, or killing big game with a serious air rifle and they make some beastly air rifles these days (not at all the same as a bb gun if you've shot one), brings up the point of where do you draw the line?
I share the opinion being also early retired for medical reasons that when I can no longer shoot as Hot Core aptly calls it an "adequate weapon", hunting big game will sadly end for me. I don't want my last memory of it to be that of watching a big buck or a big bull with a gaping wound on it's side run off over a hill to die in a couple of days. Hunting means way to much to me to have it end that way.
Gene seems real proud of his handgun skills, get a .44 mag and learn to put the sneak on em and get close. I do it a lot, great fun and in my .44 a 290 grain hard cast gas check at 1,350fps hit's a ton at 50 to 60 yards. I guarantee it won't blow up on the surface.

I’m sorry but we’re not talking about a 44 mag handgun here, which I would feel much better about hunting White tails with than a 204.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I’m sorry but we’re not talking about a 44 mag handgun here, which I would feel much better about hunting White tails with than a 204.

someone has been watching Dirty Harry too much

quote:

Posted 30 October 2007 06:30 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by MickinColo:
I’m sorry but we’re not talking about a 44 mag handgun here, which I would feel much better about hunting White tails with than a 204.

lol someone has been watching Dirty Harry too much lol

Posts: 9 | Location: USA, North Carolina | Registered: 14 February 2005

Actually, it's possible someone snivels and whines too much when he's not bragging but maybe that's an effective way to avoid dealing with the topic which is shooting undersized underpowered rounds at game animals.
If you were half the pistolero you brag of being you'd see my suggesting the .44 as a viable option at least worthy of consideration for big game that neither hurts your shoulder nor is too anemic for big game. Your not the only person out there with medical issues.

Mick let's see if I got this straight. You admit you have no experience with the .204 so your ignorant of the fact that hyper velocity rounds blow up on the surface at any sign of an obstruction, like say a bone (deer have bones in them mick) and you've never shot or been around a big game animal shot with a large caliber handgun either but you imply that one of the few guys on this thread that has a lot of experience with both is wrong because you'd "rather" use the .44 you've never shot over the .204 you've never used, that about cover it there mick? I'm pleased to say your logic (or lack there of) escapes me completely.
The .44 is very effective but you have to be able to actually hunt and get close enough to the animal to harvest it. That's the fun part, they call it "hunting".
By the way mick are you like the social avenger of the thread or just directing traffic? You've offered nothing constructive on your own yet you've criticized every thing said by others. Go back to your magazines.



This is a mulie buck that while not a big mulie it's a heck of a lot bigger bodied than I think eastern and southern whitetails are. The wound channel was through and through at 78 yards and it dropped in it's tracks, it'll do the same on elk. I suggested the .44 to keep a guy with a bum shoulder hunting without needing that BB gun you brought up to do it with. I'm a long time hunter safety instructor that thinks the animals deserve a humane dispatch.
I thought the .44 might be a good idea, he was the one that posted all his handgun credentials. I just hunt with em. I gave him credit for some of that hand gun drivel being true.
Too much Dirty Harry, "ha-ha-ha". Handgun instructor my left foot LOL, I guess we can all be whoever we want to be on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonny Burnett:
... look behind the Hornady single stage
where you will find handgun dies from 32acp to 44remmag.

Concealed Carry Instruction (Retired)

Hey Montdoug, Fine Deer you have there with the 44Mag. And it is definitely an Adequate Deer Cartridge.

I should have been paying closer attention to all the firearms Gene listed. Looks like he does have the Credentials and Dies to do the job with.

I've killed a good many up real close with a 44Mag and a 357Mag, but I've nearly decided the 357Mag is Inadequate for a Deer Killing firearm - no Exits with Jacketed Bullets.

I've got some Linotype Cast Gas Checked Bullets loaded up to try out, but just haven't got that done yet. Gotta get a Load that will shoot well before doing anything else. But, I'm expecting those Bullets to make Exits, especially from 12'-30' straight down and on out to maybe 50yds.

The revolver is an excellent suggestion if Gene can get "into" the Woods or Swamps. You never know which direction the Deer will really come from and a Revolver in a cross-draw position takes a lot less movement for me to get into position than a Rifle.

Good catch, a 44Mag would make carrying to the Stand really nice, and be relatively Recoil tollerable if held in something other than a stiff arm position.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

SB,

If the recoil of the 7Mag is hurting you, do what I did and put a muzzle brake on it. When I first bought my 7Mag, flinching was a big problem.

Now, with the Kleingunther Brake I have on it, it literally kicks like a hot loaded 222.

You can actually watch the deer fall through the scope when you shoot.

Kleingunther no longer makes brakes, but KDF does and is basically the same design, plus there are a number of smiths out there that have their own design.

Just a thought.

[quote]I've killed a good many up real close with a 44Mag and a 357Mag, but I've nearly decided the 357Mag is Inadequate for a Deer Killing firearm - no Exits with Jacketed Bullets.

I've got some Linotype Cast Gas Checked Bullets loaded up to try out, but just haven't got that done yet. Gotta get a Load that will shoot well before doing anything else. But, I'm expecting those Bullets to make Exits, especially from 12'-30' straight down and on out to maybe 50yds.

The revolver is an excellent suggestion if Gene can get "into" the Woods or Swamps. You never know which direction the Deer will really come from and a Revolver in a cross-draw position takes a lot less movement for me to get into position than a Rifle.

Hot Core I've shot a fair number of deer and a few antelope with the .357 in years past and have come to all the same conclusions. In fact all I use anymore for bullets is hard cast lead, out penetrates jacketed big time. That said I'd prefer a jacketed 158 grain soft point to a .204 by a fair margin for big game. By choice I'd chose a hard cast, 158 grain, semi-wadcutter in a .357 for close up whitetails and not feel near as under gunned as using the .204. My understanding of Southern whitetail hunting is it's typically up close and personal, that's why I made the suggestion. I'm actually a bit surprised a guy with any handgun skills at all didn't figure that out on his own, much less poo-poo the .44 Mag as a hunting weapon and talk about Dirty Harry. I feel that warm breeze of internet hot air blowing here .
By the way Hot Core, you mentioned a cross draw holster. Mines a Bianchi Cyclone, doesn't get in the way in a pickup when driving even with a 6&1/2 inch barreled revolver and beats the heck out of all of em setting a horse. What's that old saw about brilliant minds working on the same track?
This is really odd, me the confessed and afflicted small caliber junkie of the herd talking down my true love in shooting anymore, small calibers. I guess anyone that sees how explosive a hyper velocity .20 caliber is on varmints knows instinctively it won't work a damn on big game. Plus I'm thinking that anyone who poo poo's the .44 Mag with a fullhouse load as a hunting arm hasn't spent much time with handguns. Hasta.

I would think the 204 would be PASSABLE on whitetail deer ONLY if properly constructed bullets were used. To my knowledge, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, all the 20 cal. bullets are deisgned for varmints and the like and would not hold up on animals the likes of deer. If, for some reason, Nosler happens to make a Partition (not a ballistic tip) or Barnes an X-bullet, you could use the 204 for deer. I'm sure it's not lost on the forum members that a proper bullet travelling at nearly 4000fps will impart a tremendous amount of hydrostatic shock on an animal. An X-bullet would be perfect for this. My dad shot a deer with his 22-250 once and it dropped so fast he couldn't even see it in the scope - faster than any deer hit with a 30-30 or a 45-70. Literally, D-R-T.

So, to get back to my original point, I'd say with the bullets on the market currently, NO, don't use the 204 on deer. Should someone release a proper big(ish) game bullet, it may make for a nice round inside of 150 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I only use the 22s for young kids and close shots today..They seem to shoot them very well and don't flinch, so there is a place for them in the deer hunting fields.

IMHO your Dad's 25-35 would be a better rifle for the kids to use! roger

quote:

Clayman
one of us

Posted 30 October 2007 20:18
I would think the 204 would be PASSABLE on whitetail deer ONLY if properly constructed bullets were used. To my knowledge, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, all the 20 cal. bullets are deisgned for varmints and the like and would not hold up on animals the likes of deer. If, for some reason, Nosler happens to make a Partition (not a ballistic tip) or Barnes an X-bullet, you could use the 204 for deer. I'm sure it's not lost on the forum members that a proper bullet travelling at nearly 4000fps will impart a tremendous amount of hydrostatic shock on an animal. An X-bullet would be perfect for this. My dad shot a deer with his 22-250 once and it dropped so fast he couldn't even see it in the scope - faster than any deer hit with a 30-30 or a 45-70. Literally, D-R-T.

So, to get back to my original point, I'd say with the bullets on the market currently, NO, don't use the 204 on deer. Should someone release a proper big(ish) game bullet, it may make for a nice round inside of 150 yards.

Well said.
In actual fact there is a .20 caliber bullet that would probably be moderately effective on whitetails at close range (although I wouldn't personally use it for such), it's the Berger 50 grainer. I believe it would indeed penetrate as it uses the J4 jacket which is slightly thicker than the production run factory .204 jackets and it has a small hollow point that would put ya in mind of a MatchKing Sierra. The problem with it is it'll take a 1 in 9 twist barrel to stabilize it (especially at lower altitude) and the .204's are all 1 in 12's from the factory with the 32's and a maximum of 40 grainer's in mind (some 1 in 12's actually don't seem to care much for the plastic tipped, long for caliber 40's either). I'm sure the 45 Hornady will do well in most of them as it is a much shorter bullet than all the plastic tipped 40's. But it was designed as I mentioned above to penetrate on coyotes, not deer.
I also would agree on a well placed shot from a .22-250 using a good bullet being very effective on small deer. You make excellent points.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
[quote]I've killed a good many up real close with a 44Mag and a 357Mag, but I've nearly decided the 357Mag is Inadequate for a Deer Killing firearm - no Exits with Jacketed Bullets.

I've got some Linotype Cast Gas Checked Bullets loaded up to try out, but just haven't got that done yet. Gotta get a Load that will shoot well before doing anything else. But, I'm expecting those Bullets to make Exits, especially from 12'-30' straight down and on out to maybe 50yds.

The revolver is an excellent suggestion if Gene can get "into" the Woods or Swamps. You never know which direction the Deer will really come from and a Revolver in a cross-draw position takes a lot less movement for me to get into position than a Rifle.

Hot Core I've shot a fair number of deer and a few antelope with the .357 in years past and have come to all the same conclusions. In fact all I use anymore for bullets is hard cast lead, out penetrates jacketed big time. That said I'd prefer a jacketed 158 grain soft point to a .204 by a fair margin for big game. By choice I'd chose a hard cast, 158 grain, semi-wadcutter in a .357 for close up whitetails and not feel near as under gunned as using the .204. My understanding of Southern whitetail hunting is it's typically up close and personal, that's why I made the suggestion. I'm actually a bit surprised a guy with any handgun skills at all didn't figure that out on his own, much less poo-poo the .44 Mag as a hunting weapon and talk about Dirty Harry. I feel that warm breeze of internet hot air blowing here .
By the way Hot Core, you mentioned a cross draw holster. Mines a Bianchi Cyclone, doesn't get in the way in a pickup when driving even with a 6&1/2 inch barreled revolver and beats the heck out of all of em setting a horse. What's that old saw about brilliant minds working on the same track?
This is really odd, me the confessed and afflicted small caliber junkie of the herd talking down my true love in shooting anymore, small calibers. I guess anyone that sees how explosive a hyper velocity .20 caliber is on varmints knows instinctively it won't work a damn on big game. Plus I'm thinking that anyone who poo poo's the .44 Mag with a fullhouse load as a hunting arm hasn't spent much time with handguns. Hasta.

I pretty much gave up on my 44 mag shooting. I can't practice with my hunting loads, so I sold my raging bull. I have some comfortable 44 Special loads I can handle, but with the insane prices of guns, I really don't care to take my 29-2 to the range. The same goes for my Python. It's not legal anyway. We have a 5.5" min barrel length on handgun hunting. I do miss shooting the 44 mag using 44 special. It's one of my favorites.

I was laughing at the 44mag suggestion because it has virtualy the same kinetic energy at the muzzle as the 204 45gr SP ammo. My hunting buddy in Florida bought a 44 mag rifle for his step son. He shot a doe right behind the shoulder and had to bring in the dogs. Luckily they found it.

I forgot about my muzzle loader. It's just perfect for me. 150 grains of Pydrodex Pellets pushing a 300 gr Hornady XTP is fun to shoot.
Even with a muzzle brake, I had to put a Leupold 1 x 4 shotgun scope on that beast to get eye relief. I crunched the numbers, and it's about like shooting a 45-70. I let a friend "borrow" it. I can't afford new glasses and can do without a broken nose.

Gene wrote:

quote:

I was laughing at the 44mag suggestion because it has virtualy the same kinetic energy at the muzzle as the 204 45gr SP ammo.

THe .44 magnum is no "laughing matter" and is in a league entirely above anything the .204 can do on deer-sized game at reasonable ranges.

I use it here in Texas for all sorts of game, including wild hogs, which are heavily constructed and present a special challenge to most hunting bullets as the mature boars have heavy hide that's often caked with mud, a layer of fat plus a layer of cartilage around the shoulder -- something that can soak up an inadequate bullet (such as one from the .204) like a sponge.

But the .44 Magnum handles them with ease. Using either a 250 grain Partition or a 320 grain LBT-style bullet from Cast Performance (my favorite) at 1350-1400 fps from a 9.5" revolver, the .44 has never let me down, and on the rare occasion when there was a tracking job, it was a simple one as these loads shoot through pretty much everything and can almost always be counted upon to exit and leave a generous blood trail.

So what I am saying is don't get lost on the numbers. Sure, the energy figures may look comparable for the .204 and .44 Magnum, but there is more to the equation than simplistic numbers.

Killed a lot of deer size game with a 222 and 223 even a 22 hornet and a 22 magnum, but I'll tell you that a bigger good constructed bullet works every time, plus less blood shot meat. I hate cutting off a sholder that is just jelly .

The older I get the better I like a 308 with 165's, or my 358 with 225's or 250's not much fuss and always a dead deer on the other end.

Shoot wistle pigs and foxes and skunks with the 204 leave the 6mm and up for deer.

Ed

Ok Gene let's get civil again.
We might not have much in common but at least there's one thing, a bad temper so at least we got that going for us. I apologize for being a jerk, I excel at it actually, the temper thing has plagued me roughly since birth. We actually have something else as well. In 1968 I got wadded up big time while serving in the Corps. My right shoulder looks like a road map and my right clavicle got thrown out with the trash at whatever military hospital they carved me up at over there. Ya bounce back pretty quick at 19 or 20 but years later it's a whole different deal, I've become a regular human barometer and that's no stuff. I can tell ya 2 days before a cold wet front moves in without looking at the weather forecast. That's what got me into sub.22 calibers for varmints and hunting big game with handguns to begin with.
Bobby is right, numbers be damned I can drill a good size mulie buck in the front shoulders broadside with that 290 grain hard cast gas check I mentioned and it'll bust through both shoulders and exit the far side. Here's a couple more pics that go with that mulie pic I posted above.



The other.



Sorry about the repost guys, shot this one of the few times I had somebody there with a camera to take a picture I usually hunt alone.
That bullet woulda through and through'd two more of em if they'd been standing beside this one. A .204 won't usually exit a 30 LB coyote, terrible choice for big game.
At any rate if ya can't shoot a handgun ya can't shoot it. As to practice I practice with 9 grains of Unique and a 240 grain cast, puppy load. Then after a 100 or so of them I might run 2 cylinders of the fullhouse loads through, easier on me easier on the gun. Don't develop any bad habits getting brutalized by the recoil. Same with rifles, I shoot sub .22 cals all year and then two weeks before the opener I grit my teeth and bang about 6 rounds with my .300 Win Mag to make sure it's on and foul the barrel. Works for me.
The brutal truth is if ya can't shoot a handgun and ya can't shoot a rifle with adequate power ya might have to take up fishing. It's an ugly fact us old farts get to face someday like it or not, don't mean nothin. Fishing's fun, it's all in how ya view things. Just drive on.
Not sure how you come up with a 150 grains of pyrodex under a 300 grainer being fun to shoot ??? I run 95 grains under a 370 grain Maxi Ball in the T.C. 50 cal I got and it kicks like a Spanish mule.
Good luck with whatever ya decide.

quote:

Originally posted by Sonny Burnett:
I had never given a thought of using my Remington XR100 in .204 for deer. I might have been a bit hasty. During barrel break in I took one box of all available 204 factory ammo to get a starting point on the type bullet my rifle likes. I somehow ended up with a box of Hornady 45 grain Spire Point ammo. Bottom line is wasn't as tight grouping as most of the Balistic Tip type ammo, but it easily shot 3/4" groups.

I'm not sure if Hornady made this ammo with a light skinned jacket with varmints in mine, or if it's just a smaller vserions of the standard spire point.

If it's NOT a varmint load only, that bullet should jelly a deers lungs & heart with that blistering speed. I shot a few groups at 300 yds on a .5" plywood target. It cut nice clean holes with no hint of seperation, and made a bowl size crater in the rock solid clay berm behind the topic.

Has anyone tried this ammo? If I knew of someone that had taken a large yote with this bullet, it would make me feel better.
Hornady is in their answer your email when they can stage, so not luck from any info from them

Any info appreciated

Gene

Even the 17's have been used to kill deer and even black bear. Likewise, the 20's could also be used, but I think in the case of the 17's, the bullets used were home-made (such as the Ackley design, made from a solid slug of copper with a hole drilled in the point and filled with a small lead slug to initiate expansion-sort of an early version bullet like the Barnes X, but with a lead slug stuck in the nose cavity), or maybe bullets with design factors that made them work-heavy jackets, etc. I know the Ackley bullets in .224" were used not only for deer, but control shooting of wild burrows using the .220 Swift cartridge.

Mr, Burnett, have you considered a .22/250 or a .220 Swift loaded with 50 to 60 grain bullets from Barnes or Nosler (Partitions) at 3700+ FPS? Perhaps the recoil of one of these would not be excessive??

I believe that all current .204 Ruger ammo is loaded with bullets designed to optimize them as varmint projectiles, and it would be unsporting to use them on deer. I could be wrong, of course. I believe this question is one you should ask of the bullet makers!

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:

quote:

Posted 30 October 2007 00:44 Hide Post
Sonny

Don't let the bastards get you down. I've found the most interesting question to ask on this forum is "What is your EXPERIENCE with....." rather than "What is your OPINION....." As you know, opinions are a lot like assholes, everyone has one. But experience is something else, Some posters have no experience at all on the topic that you start but possess a plethra of opinions gathered from magazines and discussions, etc. My EXPERIENCE with .224 caliber rifles, mainly a 22-250 but perhaps a .223 in the future, is that they have performed in an excellent fahion for me on mule deer here in Idaho. I've tended to use the .224 bullets on the lighter side driven at high velocities and have had some impressive kills. Ususally a guy with a small caliber shoots it a lot more then his larger guns, is more familiar with it's performance, and feels more comfortable taking the shot with that rifle than others. I don't have any EXPERIENCE with the .204 caliber, just with the 22-250 and the .223 but would guess that with the right combination of bullet, powder, and performance should work out to be ok. Let us know what turns out!!!!!!!

Very interesting observation, or am I supposed to say opinion because you have no actual experience with it?
About all I shoot anymore except during deer, elk and antelope season is .17 and .20 calibers, we have many species of varmint around here and I shoot a lot. As I mentioned in my first post I have five .20 caliber rifles, one custom chambered .204 with zero free-bore and 4 full on wildcats including one on the .22 BR case with the shoulders blown out to 40 degrees and necked to .20 that pushes a 40 grain V-Max to 4,200+ fps. So whatever degree of experience you want to give that my personal feeling is it goes a bit beyond mere opinion.
.20 caliber bullets are designed to be extremely frangible, the 45 grainer was designed to be less so because the fur hunters wanted a bullet that wouldn't hydraulic "on entry" and ruin pelts. Not opinion, fact.
In a perfect world if a guy were to sneak a .20 caliber bullet between the ribs of a whitetail and not connect with any bone it would indeed blow up in side and bring on a quick demise I'd guess, as I've never done it that "is" opinion.
Fact two, we don't live in a perfect world.
If you hit a rib or especially a heavy bone like a shoulder the bullet will come unwrapped on the surface causing a huge surface wound and a slow lingering death and that too is not opinion it's fact three.
Now what I don't have experience with is the size of the Whitetails in the South and East. I do know the 5X5 whitetail buck I shot last year here in Montana weighed I'd guess 200+ lbs field dressed and there is a heck of a bunch of difference between that and the 25 to 35lb coyote that 45 grain Hornady was designed to shoot. If you think I'm full of it call Hornady at 800-338-3220. Ask for Bob, Doug Derner, Lonnie Hummel or any of the techs and and ask for their "opinion", they make the bullets in question and their a great bunch of guys.

I've read your response to my post carefully and unless I misread it you indicate that you have a lot of EXPERIENCE shooting .17 and .20 calibers on many species of varmints but don't use those calibers on deer/antelope. Correct?

Maybe Montana has a minimum caliber restriction but here in Idaho it is unlawful" to persue or kill big game animals: With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzle loading handgun, except for mountain lion" as per the Idaho Fish and Game regulations; so a .17 or .204 would be legal in Idaho.

Again you indicate that you don't use your "varmint calibers" for deer/antelope so I guess that indicates that you don't have any EXPERIENCE on shooting deer/antelope with those calibers!!!!!!

Again, Sounds like you have a lot of EXPERIENCE on the varmint shooting and reloading and caliber development which is great, but no EXPERIENCE on the deer with these calibers.

El Deguello is right and not to throw fuel on the fire but I'm going to try to post some authentic small caliber history if it'll come through.
This is is a purchase order from Vern OBrien to Bill Atkinson and Paul Marquart for a new rifle to replace the one he lost in the bet he mentions.
He'd bet his guide about using his .17 Mag (a .17 cal. wildcat based on the triple duce mag case) to take an Alaskan Brown Bear that squared 10'7" (huge bear), he tells the story.
Vern OBrien is credited with making the .17 MachIV actually P.O. Ackley developed it and let Vern run with it. Different times then. At any rate some of you oldsters might vaguely remember as I do the adds these guy's posted back then in all the hunting mags showing the picture of the huge brown bear the guy shot and plugging their products. I also remember the response of every older hunter I knew and respected at the time.
This was pre-factory .17 bullets so the bullets were all lathe turned solid copper billets with little hollow points drilled in em as El Deguello mentioned. I copied this photo from a fine gentleman that has forgotten more about small calibers than I'll ever know, he's one of the major sources for all this info. He's a bit older than I am and having seen pictures of some of his rifles I can assure you they are the stuff of dreams to a small caliber junkie like myself.
I'm sure he wouldn't mind my posting this so here it is. True small caliber history and proof you can kill anything with anything but as Bobby so aptly put it in the second post on this thread it was a stunt using an amazing animal for the prop. "Lucky they didn't get their dumb asses eaten".



The cynic in me is incline to think there was someone with a .458 backing them up.
Notice the price on the custom rifle.
Also neat to me that that's the year I went in the Corps.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
... My understanding of Southern whitetail hunting is it's typically up close and personal, that's why I made the suggestion. ...

Hey Mountdoug, We have about any kind of terrain a person could want to Hunt. I do like the Swamps with a slow meandering creek, because the Deer are typically more relaxed easing through, as opposed to the edge of a Woods/Open Field. We have mountains, coastal plains and crop fields that might run for 1/2-2miles.

You might be faced with Four foot tall Beans and Deer standing Three feet tall to the withers, with just a set of eyes and ears sticking up can be aggravating. Especially if the ears are "inside" a HUGE Rack.

Nothing like the spots out West where a person can see for 22 miles. But, I don't have a rifle, with me doing the Trigger Yanking, capable of making a clean, 1-shot Kill at 22miles anyhow.

The holsters I have are very old Synthetic Uncle Mike's. They will slide around the Belt so it is a Cross Draw. Or they will slide back around to the normal carry side to catch the Barrel of the rifle(slung upside-down) when dragging one out with the old Drag Stick.

I can understand Gene wanting to be in the Hunt.

quote:

I've read your response to my post carefully and unless I misread it you indicate that you have a lot of EXPERIENCE shooting .17 and .20 calibers on many species of varmints but don't use those calibers on deer/antelope. Correct?

Maybe Montana has a minimum caliber restriction but here in Idaho it is unlawful" to persue or kill big game animals: With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzle loading handgun, except for mountain lion" as per the Idaho Fish and Game regulations; so a .17 or .204 would be legal in Idaho.

Again you indicate that you don't use your "varmint calibers" for deer/antelope so I guess that indicates that you don't have any EXPERIENCE on shooting deer/antelope with those calibers!!!!!!

Again, Sounds like you have a lot of EXPERIENCE on the varmint shooting and reloading and caliber development which is great, but no EXPERIENCE on the deer with these calibers.

In Montana it's legal to use a .22 long rifle for elk, we have no caliber restrictions. I don't shoot big game with these calibers cause as was mentioned above I don't have to wound an animal to know frangible bullets aren't designed for big game. I don't need any first hand experience with stepping out in front of a speeding train either to tell ya it's a bad idea but you might, so have fun. Your at this point, arguments over. Have a great day.

while i am sure that a .204 would cleany kill any whitetail deer, death is not the point.
he will die if shot in the lungs sure. but that little .20 cal hole isnt gonna let much blood flow and he's gonna make it quite a way before he gives up the ghost.
No, i'll even admit to owning a 243, but, i dont want it in my hand when MY 240 Lb.s 14 pointer shows up at 200 yards quartering away through the trees.

perfect conditions produce effects that arent redily repeatable 99% of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:

quote:

I've read your response to my post carefully and unless I misread it you indicate that you have a lot of EXPERIENCE shooting .17 and .20 calibers on many species of varmints but don't use those calibers on deer/antelope. Correct?

Maybe Montana has a minimum caliber restriction but here in Idaho it is unlawful" to persue or kill big game animals: With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzle loading handgun, except for mountain lion" as per the Idaho Fish and Game regulations; so a .17 or .204 would be legal in Idaho.

Again you indicate that you don't use your "varmint calibers" for deer/antelope so I guess that indicates that you don't have any EXPERIENCE on shooting deer/antelope with those calibers!!!!!!

Again, Sounds like you have a lot of EXPERIENCE on the varmint shooting and reloading and caliber development which is great, but no EXPERIENCE on the deer with these calibers.

In Montana it's legal to use a .22 long rifle for elk, we have no caliber restrictions. I don't shoot big game with these calibers cause as was mentioned above I don't have to wound an animal to know frangible bullets aren't designed for big game. I don't need any first hand experience with stepping out in front of a speeding train either to tell ya it's a bad idea but you might, so have fun. Your at this point, arguments over. Have a great day.

Don't be offended or huff up when someone disagrees with your opinion, afterall it's just an opinion!!!!

I've tried not to let my opinions stand in the way of me learning some new EXPERIENCES. Who knows maybe someone else actually does know more about a new area than you. Perhaps even the new EXPERIENCE will be fun. No big deal.

Not sure about the speeding train analagy????? I thought we were talking about some more mundane than that like opinions vs. EXPERIENCES on small calibers for deer. My bad.