I've noticed some people mentioning taking Head Shots on Deer.

Question:
I believe it is OK for "me" to take Head Shots on Deer at any distance because I know every move Deer make before they make it and I am an exceptionally GREAT Shot. Due to my vast knowledge and extremely rare shooting ability, I realize other folks should restrict taking Head Shots to:

Choices:
That describs me perfectly!!!
< 25yds
< 50yds
< 100yds
< 200yds
< 500yds
No, this is all wrong.

Question:
No, I don't agree that it is a good idea to take Head Shots. Bragging about it indicates the person:

Choices:
Is a Rookie.
Doesn't understand Deer at all.
Is a total fool(decorum precludes me from saying how big an idiot the fool really is).
All the above.

 

All wrong on all counts.

If you can make a clean headshot on a deer there is nothing wrong with doing it. It's nothing to either brag about doing or complain about other's doing. I don't know about you but I don't eat antlers, skull bones, or deer brains. I also head shoot squirrels and rabbits when I can manage it because it saves meat. When my neighbor slaughters his domestic hogs he head shoots them, he doesn't put one through the heart and lungs instead.

Get the picture?

as a kid growing up, i wa taught to take neck shots...i missed just about as much as i hit...i clipped the jugular on a spike 1 time, he dropped like a rock from the shock of my silvertip 30/30's...this shot from a tree stand about 30 yrd away... another time i shot a doe in the neck with my .225 from about 150 yds... small entrance wound and the exit side of the neck was like bloody jelly... will i take a head shot???... you bet... i don't eat the head, and i don't collect horns....will i take a lung/heart shot??? i prefer it, because with my diminishing eyeshight, i need the front leg to line up on, with my garand.... ... i'm not a trophy hunter by any means, just like the smell of gunpowder, and the taste of deer meat... btw, i didn't vote...

Head shots... I've seen many a deer with blown off jaws from people taking head shots. I prefer a neck shot if the target is close.

I wouldn't do it.

One day in deer camp a guy was bragging about only doing headshots with calibers under .30-06 because anything under .30 cal wont penetrate behind the shoulder

He ended up hitting a deer in the jaw and tracking it for 300-400 yards through a canyon until the blood trail slowed and wasn't found.

Animals deserve better then this, and the shot was taken at less then 75 yards.

If close enough to an undisturbed, don't know I'm there dear, I'll take a behind the ear shot, which is actually a neck shot.

"Close enough" depends on the deer, the situation, and the rifle rest. Sticks don't do for much distance, but a rail on a tree stand often does.

JPK

I have taken multiple deer with a head shot...

up to a 125 yds in distance...

That being said,

the deer were just standing there...

I also had a rifle in too light of a caliber for any other kind of shot...

I had a solid rest...

I had a deer tag, within deer season...

and it was upon my property...

A couple of others were ones that were hit by a car and had limped off into a adjacent field...

Other than that, doing it in the field as routine is kinda foolish....unless the shooter is an expert marksman.. not in their opinion, but an expert marksman with credentials, such as a military or police sniper...

I think most who do it are poachers with a 22 at night.. and don't want to cause attention to themselves...

Why don't we just simplify this?

It is improper and inhumane as well as unsportsmanlike to take any kind of shot on any kind of animal under any circumstances because something could go wrong and you could lose the animal that limps off to the woods to die.

Put away your rifles and shotguns boys cos you're nothing but a bunch of murderers and braggarts. Save the killing for the people that know how to do it at the abattoir.

Expert marksmen with police/military/tournament credentials sometimes miss too.

It's not what kind of shot you take, it is the probability of your success in making that shot under the circumstances at hand.

There are lots of ways to shoot deer that will lead to lost animals that suffer long drawn out deaths. Bow hunters and handgun hunters are notorius for these sorts of things if you really want to climb a high horse about who are good and who are bad hunters. And there are also plenty of ethical bow and handgun hunters that don't take shots that are likely to cause travesty instead of success.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
Why don't we just simplify this?

It is improper and inhumane as well as unsportsmanlike to take any kind of shot on any kind of animal under any circumstances because something could go wrong and you could lose the animal that limps off to the woods to die.

Put away your rifles and shotguns boys cos you're nothing but a bunch of murderers and braggarts. Save the killing for the people that know how to do it at the abattoir.

Expert marksmen with police/military/tournament credentials sometimes miss too.

It's not what kind of shot you take, it is the probability of your success in making that shot under the circumstances at hand.

There are lots of ways to shoot deer that will lead to lost animals that suffer long drawn out deaths. Bow hunters and handgun hunters are notorius for these sorts of things if you really want to climb a high horse about who are good and who are bad hunters. And there are also plenty of ethical bow and handgun hunters that don't take shots that are likely to cause travesty instead of success.

Welcome Mr. PETA.....

We are glad we have intellectuals in our mists like yourself to help us see the errors of our ways....

After reading your post, I have seen the light and havs sworn off hunting forever.. in fact I am going to destroy each of my firearms tomorrow so that they will never ever again hurt our furry little adorable woodland creatures...

In fact in the morning I am going to quit shaving, start wearing Birkenstocks, geow a ponytail, start eating nothing but tofu and soy products, start driving a electric car, with bumperstickers on it about Global Warming and showing my support for the DNC...

I'll start smoking dope to expand my mind and enlighten myself.. and any traditions that mankind has had for the last million years, I will be against, because my type have a better idea...

I'll quit believing in a God, start promoting sex education for grade schoolers, handing out condoms to 6th graders.,... and encoourage high schoolers to experiment with drugs and sex with both female and male partners...

I will glorify Islam and protest against our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and call them all baby killers...

I know this is just a start, but would that be acceptable for day one????

On second thought, why don't I just tell you that if you are anti hunting, why don't you find another forum where folks will eat up that kind of nosense instead of lurking on a hunting and shooting web site, so that you can just make yourself feel better for giving people who think differently than you, a load of crap.. like what you posted above for a start there Homer!

Come on now Seafire it's not good to hold it in, why don't you tell us how you really feel.
Good Hunting.


Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
[QUOTE]O
Welcome Mr. PETA.....(blather)

Stand up next time you read my posts and maybe they won't fly right over your head. The English call it "dry humor." I call it funny. But I'll give you your diatribe was pretty funny too, though I'm not sure if it was intentional or not on your part. Definitely misdirected though, being as I've been both rifle and bow hunting in the past week. Grow a fu manchu and stop showering if it makes you happy. Grow a sense of humor and you'll be even happier.

AR, where agreeing with a person that head shots on deer can be acceptable at times causes somebody to go off their tit...

After seeing a deer with a shattered jaw ,head shots seemed to be a poor choice !

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
After seeing a deer with a shattered jaw ,head shots seemed to be a poor choice !

After seeing a deer drop in it's tracks from a headshot because it was the best shot available, I believe head shots can be a good choice.

this is going to turn into one of those
things.

All shots are poor shot choices if you screw them up. Practice and don't screw up if you can avoid it. If you aren't confident in a shot, don't take it. Problem solved.

Tom,
It looks from here that you have some pent up anger stored up in you. You're not an undercover PETA agent, are you?

It would seem to me that any animal that was cleanly taken, eats well, wheather or not it was shot in the head or not.
I personally prefer a lung shot, less chance for error.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
Tom,
It looks from here that you have some pent up anger stored up in you. You're not an undercover PETA agent, are you?

Sarcasm isn't pent up anger and with the right people it elicits a chuckle. I'm so undercover in PETA that I hunt and fish and keep livestock to butcher.

Better odds on a heart and lung shot but sometimes a head shot is the way to go if you can do it. The person who started this poll with answers choices that all basically mean "I agree with you that people should not ever head shoot deer" is the person with issues.

if things are pefect, i'll take a head/neck shot ... but things have to be perfect.... i eat what i hunt, and my need for taking game cleanly outweighs worring overly much about a touch of blood shot meat....

but i shoot bigbores, which tends to not blood shoot things

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
The person who started this poll with answers choices that all basically mean "I agree with you that people should not ever head shoot deer" is the person with issues.

It is my personal observation for many years now that as hunting skills have diminished in the general population of those who hunt, rifle calibers used have become more powerful, associated gimmickry more varied, and results less certain. States managed for "a deer on every skinning pole" not quality. I believe that the utility of hunting game in particular was far greater years ago than it is now and more true hunting skills were employed. Many of the "merchandising poster boys" in my hunting area here don't even eat what they kill, employing DRT shots through the shoulders of 120 pound 4 pointers at 87 yards over a corn pile. ned

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
The person who started this poll with answers choices that all basically mean "I agree with you that people should not ever head shoot deer" is the person with issues.

My dad would tell ya that if you're in a hole you might could think about stopping digging it deeper. Take that advisement for what it's worth.

I didn't vote in your poll because they were all anti-headshot bigot answers.

Let us insert a bit of logic here for the obviously logic impaired:

If one is hunting ele, where the brain is about the size of a football in an enormous head, the brain shot is the shot to go for. With a small Texas white tail deer, it's wrong to shoot it in the head with a .270 or what have you?

Makes about as much sense as none at all.

Tom:

Some of these guys need a Humor Education Course.

As a Texas Level 3 game management ranch, we have to kill a goodly number of does a year, I kill a fair amount of the ones I rifle shoot with head shots, but I don't take the shot unless I'm reasonably certain I can make the shot. But I apply that standard to ALL of my shots, whether with rifle, pistol, shotgun or muzzleloader.

Have I ever lost an animal? Yes, but not to a headshot. I have missed a head shot when the animal dipped her head just as the trigger broke. She stood there and I shot her in the lungs, not knowing for sure if I missed or my rifle might be off. I missed. Speaking for myself, the head shots I take are not prone to "blowing their jaw off". I usually aim for the ear/neck junction and that gives me several inches from the jaw. Since I can hold offhand closer than that at 100yards, (and I don't take offhand headshots on deer) a rested head shot by me has little potential for wounding.

People can get way too wrapped up in the "noble" game ethos. The bottom line is hunting is seeking an animal that we are trying to kill. As long as you do it legally, then the "how" is your choice. Some people make it so tough that they cross the line into an ethical question, (an example would be duck hunting with a .410) but that is their choice and their ethics.

Would I recommend headshots routinely for everyone? Of course not, but OTOH, there are many hunters out there that I wouldn't let on my place with a howitzer. I'd bet that if you compared head shot losses with wounds vs bow hunting losses with wounds, the totals would be much higher percentage wise for the bow hunters. Does that mean I want to ban bows? Not at all, but any honest bow hunter will tell you that he has a pretty high percentage of lost deer.

Head shots are ok as long as your head is in the right place, not where some on here seem to keep it.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
... I have missed a head shot when the animal dipped her head just as the trigger broke. ...

I see, you either totally miss or the Kill is instantanious. No chance at all that she could have been "slightly" slower moving her head, or you could have been "slightly" faster on the Trigger Yanking.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
...I didn't vote in your poll because they were all anti-headshot bigot answers. ...

I was wondering if anyone knew where I stood on this pitiful lack of knowledge concerning Deer behavior.

Check the vote total, apparently there are more knowledgeable and ethical Hunters on the Board than there are fools. Needless to say I'm glad to be with them.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
... I have missed a head shot when the animal dipped her head just as the trigger broke. ...

I see, you either totally miss or the Kill is instantanious. No chance at all that she could have been "slightly" slower moving her head, or you could have been "slightly" faster on the Trigger Yanking.

And of course there's no chance at all you'll ever miss a non-head shot because you are the "deer whisperer" who knows all and never misses anything ever. I think being a prick and judgemental about other people's succesfull ways of hunting is not the making of an ethical hunter. It's just the making of a loudmouthed prick.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
...With a small Texas white tail deer, it's wrong to shoot it in the head with a .270 or what have you? ...

You really seem to be having trouble understanding that the v-a-s-t majority of people who claim to be exceptional head shooters, also typically swear by the ultra-weenie Calibers - like 22cal.

After Gatogordo's post, it does make (even less)sense( ). If you use a real Deer Caliber, the diameter of the Bullet is so much larger that shots like Gatogordo takes and "totally Misses" would have wounded the Deer.

Yeah, that has to be it.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
if things are pefect, i'll take a head/neck shot ... but things have to be perfect.... i eat what i hunt, and my need for taking game cleanly outweighs worring overly much about a touch of blood shot meat....

but i shoot bigbores, which tends to not blood shoot things

This is more how I think also.

I don't use big bores but I like to shoot my game with barnes X bullets which in my experience eliminates bloodshot also.

This is an argument that always grabs some people the wrong way.

It comes down to the experience of the shooter, the rifle used and the circumstance.
It also comes down to just how well you can shoot. No more no less. I cannot see how anyone could possibly forsake a hunter for chosing this shot due to the "risk" of wounding. A wounded head shot deer is not going to suffer any more than a gut shot one is.
It is, undeniably the most humane method of shooting an animal to kill it.
No ethics or should come into this one.

However...Most hunters will freely brag about how good a shot they are and what great shots tey have pulled off.
In reality most hunters aren't very good shots and their experience is limited to letting off a few rounds a year hoping they will find there mark, or thereabouts.
They don't think about how to improve their shoting, they take thoughtles shots from unsuitable rests or positions and some don't see all this going on in their excitement. Others just don't think about it in preparation for the shot.
They don't really know exactly what is going to happen when they pull the trigger.
Hence we hear about shooting for the heart/lungs/shoulder "because it offers a greater margin for error". hearing that really pisses me off. Just learn to bloody well shoot for christs' sake! I don't agree with people "trying" for a shot.
Sure, $hit happens, but very rarely if you are properly prepared.

The part of a deers' head that needs to be hit to kill it is about as big as a grapefruit on average. That's pretty easy to hit out to 200 yards.

I head shoot deer(pigs too) exclusively, (unless I'm after the a trophy head) and I'd shoot about 20 or 30 per year this way for meat.
I use a Sako 6PPC with a NF scope on it, off a bipod, shooting stix or backpack, recently I've started using a .204Ruger Varminter too.
Now with these rifles, in the conditions I hunt for meat in, it's very easy to make the shot on unsuspecting deer, or pigs for that matter.

I have only ever had problems once, with a doe facing me at about 80 meters. The 70gn ballistic tip didn't make it to the brain and destroyed the whole snout and nasal cavity. Needless to say, the deer went down but was able to lift it's head and it required a finishing off.
So I avoid head shooting facing dead on with light, frangile bullets.

So please, don't make a big issue out of it, if you are capable of doing it, no one should have the right to argue with your decision to head shoot.
If you are not capable of making the shot %99.9 of the time, then obstain.

quote:

The English call it "dry humor." I call it funny.

Well I happily stand corrected.....

We can all get to the status of with the right stimulation...

you can tell it pissed me off, by the quality of my typing skills.. and lack of care to spell check it...

I stand corrected...

have done it and will do it again.
i am not advocating it, but i do it.
mostly with a good rest and under 65 yards or so. i prefer facing head on or away and not profile shots.
T-zones.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
... I have missed a head shot when the animal dipped her head just as the trigger broke. ...

I see, you either totally miss or the Kill is instantanious. No chance at all that she could have been "slightly" slower moving her head, or you could have been "slightly" faster on the Trigger Yanking.

And of course there's no chance at all you'll ever miss a non-head shot because you are the "deer whisperer" who knows all and never misses anything ever. I think being a prick and judgemental about other people's succesfull ways of hunting is not the making of an ethical hunter. It's just the making of a loudmouthed prick.

Well, I could add some to Tom's response but that pretty well covered the territory......like most people, I suppose, or most good shots that I know of anyway, I remember my misses a helluva lot more than I remember the hits.....I EXPECT to hit what I shoot at with a rifle and when I don't it is usually my fault, but I have had a scope or ten get knocked off over the years, bouncing around on a 4 wheeler has done several of them in.

The shot that I mentioned that got Hot Core hotter was simple enough, I was actually riding along on a 4 wheeler, checking some cattle and spotted an older, meaning bigger bodied, doe grazing along a timber line about 90 yards from me. I stopped the 4 wheeler, yanked the rifle (that day it was a very accurate Savage 99 .308 with a 1.5x5 leupie on it loaded with 130 gr Norma factory loads) out of the scabbard, dropped down and laid the rifle across the seat. About that time, deer went on "point" at something in the woods, surprisingly not me (but anyone who has a ranch knows that deer get used to ranch vehicles quickly and sometimes seem to ignore them) and gave me a perfect profile on her head, the only fault that Savage has is a not so great trigger....about the time it broke, she dropped her head to eat some more rye grass and I shot over her, maybe I pulled the shot because of the creep as well, I tend to shoot high with poorer triggers its a result of "relaxing" at the break (which may not be THE break with a poorer trigger) which is a fault, but anyone who knows sic'em from sooey about deer should be familiar with the speed of the switch from "point" back to whatever they were doing. She started at the shot but looked around and was apparently going to go back to eating when I quickly shot her in the lungs. End of story. It wasn't a classic hunt, nor am I claiming that I was hunting, I was taking a doe to keep the Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept happy. At that time, I didn't have as many "volunteers" to take does as I do now and had to shoot them when I got the chance with a few dozen doe permits, otherwise I'd have been spending all my "real" hunting time shooting and cleaning does.

PS Hot Core, I don't "yank" triggers on rifles, at least not on deer, I've yanked a bunch of them on close up pigs if you want to call a quick pull a "yank". What I don't understand is why you're so exercised over head shots, you don't like them, don't take them, leave them to people who can shoot.

I'd like to throw an idea out that pertains to this and it isn't one I'm sure of beyond any reasonable doubt but it makes sense to me and came from the owner of one of the best wild game, butcher shops and specialty meat guys I've ever known. He was older then and has long since passed. The scenario goes like this.
First I should state my "personal" self imposed rules for hunting.(I'm not pushing these or imposing them on anyone, they are "mine". Make up your own).
1).I don't shoot running animals, they eat better when they ain't scared and there's too many possibilities for a fubar'd situation.
2). There are very few situations where I'll shoot off-hand at game over about 50 yards. An elk walking through the trees that gets plumb clear at 85ish yards might get me to shoot but mostly I kneel, use a rest, go prone, or wait for later.
3).When hunting big game with a handgun I "will not!" shoot except from a rest or Kieth style with my back against a tree and the handgun bi-podded between my knees. 75 or 80 yards it the end of it for distance and that depends on conditions, wind, weather etc.
4).After the talk with the old meat cutter I no longer take C.N.S. shots (central nervous system), I invariably wait for a lung shot. Here's the reason;
I took in a big mulie doe, I'm predominately a ,meat hunter and I'm real anal about caring for my future meals. I bragged that it was head shot so he wouldn't even find the hole, (at that point about my last ten head of animals had been head/neck shot, I was a lot younger and it had been a point of "ego swell" with my shooting buddy and myself). The old meat cutter stated that when you deliver a C.N.S. hit (brain or spine) to an animal everything stops instantly, "everything!". The outcome of that is that all the blood trapped in the extremities stays there and effects the flavor of the meat (for better or worse). In this case with a mulie in his opinion and mine if he's right, for worse. He went on that when shot in the lungs as we all know the critter usually makes a big hop followed by a mad dash of about 25 or 30 yards and piles up. During that time in his opinion the heart is still pumping and while all the blood is drawn through the lungs they got a hole in em so it don't get pumped back out into the extremities where it came from, draining the extremities of blood. Hence better meat.
Right wrong or indifferent it made sense to me and beings as how the year prior my buddy's cousin that we took out with us got caught up in our ridiculous ego trip and blew the jaw off a nice buck (as has been mentioned) that then took off to die a slow death, I made a decision right then to forever change my aiming point and I'm still happy with that decision for me personally.
What we're talking here in "my" opinion is that nasty "ethics" word that always starts wars on the internet. The more I hang out at websites like this fine one here the more I am convinced that we can explain what our personal ethics are and hopefully guys compare and consider em but ultimately we all have to develop our own and even more hopefully, live by em! It makes no sense to die on the "ethics" hill trying to enforce ours on others as I fear I still do sometimes anyway before I catch myself . Besides I gotta watch my blood pressure and getting PO'd all the time swimming against the tide don't help .
Thats my take anyway. Hope ya all have a good hunting season.

I only take head shots.....Monica lives next door!

Hey Montdoug, You've had a PM awaiting you since 10Nov07. You may not have your "Notifications" turned ON.
-----

quote:

Originally posted by EXPRESS:
...It comes down to the experience of the shooter, the rifle used and the circumstance.
It also comes down to just how well you can shoot. No more no less. ...

Hey Express, Being an "accurate shot with an accurate Load in anaccurate rifle seems to create the false illusion that is all that is needed.

Without understanding Deer and how they move, it really doesn't matter how "accurate" the rifle/shooter happens to be.

Once a person really understands Deer, then these shots are left to the Rookies and Braggarts of the world to go out and wound Deer.
-----

For those of you who are upset about this Thread or even REALLY Upset - tough cookies! Too bad it hits a bit too accurately for you.

We are currently missing two other Braggart Head Shooters that I'm aware of. Perhaps they are out claiming they just "missed" a clean Head Shot Kill somewhere else.
-----

Hang in there Vapo - somebody has to be doing Monica, might as well be you !

quote:

Grow a fu manchu and stop showering if it makes you happy

funny.

and I shower once a month whether I need it or not.

headshot? see no reason not to if conditions are favorable for a quick kill and one doesn't want to louse up the meat.

myself, I go behind the shoulder, that being the favorable condition of a larger target, something I need due to my diminished competence.

roger

Hey Express, Being an "accurate shot with an accurate Load in anaccurate rifle seems to create the false illusion that is all that is needed.

Without understanding Deer and how they move, it really doesn't matter how "accurate" the rifle/shooter happens to be.
 

Good point there, but honestly I didn't think I needed to include it. It's not exactly rocket surgery. Of course people need to understand how deer behave and predict what the next movement will be.

Hey EXPRESS, Best of luck with that new rifle. I know that has to be aggravating.
---

This business about the "Heads moving" might make an interesting thread. I'll put it on the Hunting Board, but there doesn't seem to be as many people attempt the (high Wound potential ) Head Shots there.

Neat that this topic makes people sensitive and willing to call names. I even almost got Tom's original attempt at humor.

Why can't it just be a personal decision, and be left alone as that. Why can't we all just get along.

By the way,m I vote no on head shots for myself, given the firearms I huint with and my shooting ability, about which I am very realistic. I also vote no on neck shots, and possibly on shots where deer are directly facing me, due to my experiences and abilities. If you feel differently, and can do it, feel free. However, if you routinely mess it up, don't expect me to respect you as a hunter or invite you back to my property.

I have a new thread started on the Hunting Board concerning "Whitetail Head Movements". Sure look forward to all the combined Head Shooter "wisdom" on how long a Whitetail's Head remains up.

I tried my best not to skew the Poll. You Head Shooters feel free to add "any" comments you desire. I might learn something from you all.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I've noticed some people mentioning taking Head Shots on Deer.

No head shots for me. I've seen antlers blown clear off, leaving no evidence that the deer had legal antlers, have fortunately not been treated to the sight of a deer minus jaw.

I have not shot anything offhand in years; hunting sage flats there is no need. Any longish shot worth taking leaves time for a good prone or sitting-with-a-rest setup. Even on shorter shots, you don't lost enough meat to warrant uncertainty by declining the lung shot.

I voted against head shots, as they are a low percentage shot regardless of range. However if you are chasing a wounded animal and that is the only shot that you have take it. I agree with everyone who says the amount of meat lost to a rib shot is minimal and provides a much bigger target.