Ah that’s the extremely expensive way. Per advice from Michael to me when I decided to build a .500 caliber rifle… Work up your most accurate loading and then work your 50yd sighting (POA/POI) with the CEB bullets. Then do a loading work up the cheap 500gr Hornady blems so that you have an identical 50yd POA/POI with the CEB bullets. Once you’ve matched them then practice away!

Ah a visit with Michael and the lab! Try to pick up a few boxes of the 500gr Hornady’s before you go. Then you can have Michael show you his pointing die process and I’m sure he’ll let you run all your bullets through his pointing die. That’ll at least keep you going for a while pending delivery of your own pointing die.

Thanks for the heads up Jim, i will do as you say.

Secondmtripmto the lab. Taking a friend who is looking for a new weapon for our buff hunt next year. I am struggling between getting a 9.3 or a 458 super short, or both

If I recollect correctly you were primarily looking for a medium so the 9.3 would work just fine. But I have a feeling that you'll eventually end up with both...

I shot one of Michael's AI stocked 416 B&M, along with the little 50 B&M SS in Oregon in May 2010. The 50 SS was nice but I truly loved the 416. Michael had loaded a good spread of 300-350gr spitzer bullets along with some 350gr BND SLDs for us to use. One location was an across canyon 325yd shooting station and I was pleasantly surprised how accurate the little 416 was with the 300gr and 350gr bullets.

Definately my two favorites B&Ms are the 416 and 50 using the standard 2 1/4" cases.

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Have you been shooting? I can't recall if we spoke about that? If so, what loads are you going to use?

Michael

Michael,
I've put over 160 round threw it so far.
CEB 345gr. 51 gr. of Lil'Gun 2336 fps

kev5000,
Just go with 9.3 B&M, your going to use CEB bullets. Michael has done all the load data, it would be a load and go.

This winter SSK Ind. will be building me a 9.3 B&M. I must admit that once I though about building a 375 B&M, but change my mind when the 210 Raptors came out.

Coyote

I think with that load you are getting about 40 fps or more than I get with the 16 inch barrels here. That is ok, at least some bonus to having to go with the 18 inches for Canada.

It seems Matthew and Mark have made the Super Shorts their favorites. Looks like I am out a 50 and 475 Super Short. So I sent two rifles up last week to have new 50 and new 475 Super Shorts built. My new 50 Super Short is going to look like Cross 458 Super Short, stainless barrel, black gunkote receiver, front barrel band NECG and rear both gunkote as well.

I think Kev is going with the 375 B&M--Maybe??? HEH HEH.........

Michael

Brent

Yes, for sure pick up a couple of boxes of 500 gr Hornady .500s, we can round the nose up for you and they actually are excellent bullets up to a max of 2100 fps. But that big lead meplat up front gets caught on the feed ramp and it's soft. Would not take but a few minutes to run them in the forming die.

As for an all around medium caliber, hard to beat the 9.3 B&M and it's size.

Keep the Super Shorts doing Super Short work!

Michael

Oh, forgot to mention, seems Layne Simpson has another little article out on the 50 B&M Alaskan in this months, or this issues Guns & Ammo. I have not seen it yet, I think my subscribe has expired, so will probably pick it up at the Books a Million if it's out there.

Just FYI

Michael

Got a look at some of the first B&M apparel this week! I am very pleased with the work my boy did here. Looks good, better in person than what I could photograph!










T'Shirts, Hats, and 511, Bob Allen, and Tag Safari shirts are all in the pipeline and in the works.

Michael

Michael,
The shirts look GREAT !

Are there any short sleeve shirts ?

The T'shirts will be great!
Hip boots and T'shirts is all I wear when running bear baits when it's 80 degrees.

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,
The shirts look GREAT !

Are there any short sleeve shirts ?

The T'shirts will be great!
Hip boots and T'shirts is all I wear when running bear baits when it's 80 degrees.

Hey Coyote

A few months ago I ordered 24 different styles of shirts from Tag Safari, 511, Bob Allen. After getting all of them embroidered, looking at what I liked, did not like and so forth, I have ordered more 511s, Tag Safari Shooter Shirt, and Bob Allen shirts shown in the photos. Short and Long Sleeve. Ordered several different sizes as well. So not ready yet, but not too long.

T'Shirts should be ready in a couple of weeks, same with the caps/hats. Ordered 150 T'Shirts of 3 colors, and several sizes.

I was very pleased with the way they are turning out. Momma did a good job on the logo. In the future I want an elephant, asiatic buffalo, bear, and who knows what else! LOL............ But first things first!

Michael

Doc M,

I like that 5.11 Tactical Series shirt as shown, gray with red-lettered logo.
Neck size 17.5", sleeve 35", or X-Large T-shirt.
How do I order, if you are providing the service.
Need proper attire to accompany my .458 B&M rifle use.

Back to basics:

50 B&M: headspaces on case mouth AND extractor?
Whatever, it works!

Could you possibly reveal the specifications of the chamber neck and brass, for academic purposes?

What is the brass neck diameter with bullet loaded (50 B&M)?

What is the reamer neck diameter?

Is there an abrupt 90-degree transition of chamber neck to throat instead of the usual 45-degree chamfer?

What is the maximum brass length allowed, and do you try to keep it near max length instead of the usual -0.010" trim-to with other cartridges?

Is there a PLUS chamber length tolerance from bolt face to end of chamber length, versus the max brass overall length allowed?

Please do not tell anything about the throat. We got that covered already!

Michael,these look good. I am with RIP, the top one by 5:11, with the TAG being my scond favorite, but i like them all except the last one. How you coming wiht the slings? Will you have any of this in stock in a couple of weeks?

For Sure RIP--Proper Attire is needed-I concur! LOL........

This first run was just to see what sort of shirts I wanted to go with, now that this is settled I placed orders for the 511s and Bob Allens. Not going to be cheap, I could not get any breaks on these, and then add the embroidery to that! My guy put in for a dealership on the Tags, and hope to hear something this week on that, maybe get a little better price on those.

30 various colors of the 511s are on the way, and many back ordered, and nearly all the Bob Allen shirts I ordered will be 20 days out!

50 B&M--50 B&M Super Short---I consider Extractor on these the most important part of headspace. Win M70s of course. Cartridge cannot possibly go any further in the chamber than extractor will allow it to. Truth be known, same with any other cartridge and a control feed gun regardless of design of the cartridge.

No, when trimming I trim the 50 B&Ms to 2.240-2.245. Spec is 2.250. The only issue I ever run into is with longer brass, and that is where the mouth comes in. Not much room to work, if brass is 2.252 or so, it starts getting harder to chamber, you can feel it. Trim that back, easy as can be. Never in many 1000s of rounds fired has there ever been an issue, not once, unless that brass gets too long as mentioned.


When I have basic brass made all of it is cut and trimmed to 2.240. For the 50 B&M it's size, load and shoot. Brass grows to 2.242-2.245 or so. When sizing and forming 9.3-475 B&M the brass grows about the same, and I trim it back to 2.240 as the specs on these are a little tighter for length.

Some of the other specs I have to check on for you.

Michael
Loaded cases measure .525 on the 50 B&M.

I gotta go with the 5.11 shirt as well. The TAG would be OK in a green, but not that yellow/kahki - hateful color! Always need two chest pockets, so Bob Allen is out.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I gotta go with the 9.11 shirt as well. The TAG would be OK in a green, but not that yellow/kahki - hateful color! Always need two chest pockets, so Bob Allen is out.

Mike

511! HEH.....

OK 511 colors ordered are Black, Gray, Tundra, Khaki, OD Green, Coyote Brown.

Bob Allens The red/tan and green/tan.

Have not ordered the Tag Safari yet, waiting on a better price hopefully. But the colors are moss, forest, khaki, olive and stone. Stone is the one in the photo that you don't like. I have one in olive and I like it a lot. Forest and moss look pretty good too.

Brent

Slings and cartridge slides are still a ways out. Henry is getting started on those now.

T'Shirts should be next in a week or so.

Then the hats maybe. I am a No Compromise on the hats, so when the hats or caps come in, you either like them or you don't, I like them, and they are the only caps I will wear, so on the Hats/Caps it's "My Way or the Highway" LOL..................

I like the 5:11s myself. Will be pricey however, they cut no breaks. Black ones with the buffalo and yellow letters looks really spiffy.

Michael

9.11 v. 5.11 - freudian slip! Fixed it. Heh-Heh.

BTW, the TAG shirts in olive are good to go. Beau bought one with the Chifuti Safaris embroidery and I thought it looked very good.

Mike

Been back and forth with Henry via email, he is going to have a partial order ready by mid October.

I bought 5-6 different styles of the Tag Safari shirts, and the only ones I really liked where the shooter shirts. Those are the ones we are going with as soon as we get a price from them.

Have several rifles in the works right now. 3 458 B&Ms, 1 50 B&M, 1 416 B&M, 2 9.3 B&Ms, 1 50 Super Short, and one 475 Super Short.

Been smoking gunbroker over for New Haven guns, prices are edging up on stock guns. WSSMs are getting more expensive now too. Did buy another RUM Winchester yesterday. Have 6 of those on hand currently. Also have two very hard to come by New Haven WSM Left Hand rifles. Waiting for a lefty to build!

Michael

Have several rifles in the works right now. 3 458 B&Ms, 1 50 B&M, 1 416 B&M, 2 9.3 B&Ms, 1 50 Super Short, and one 475 Super Short.



Soon to be another 458 B&M and a 9.3 or 458 SS

Hey all y'all, especially any lawyers:

Regarding paying royalties to Rick Jamison for a rifle built for a "short and fat" cartridge:
Whatever happened to him?
Has he ever tried to get his hooks into anyone else besides Winchester and Browning?

I heard somewhere that there was a formula describing the class of cartridge that might be construed as owing royalty to Rick Jamison
and companies like Hornady, Ruger, and Remington avoid making those,
or get around it with "Ruger Compact Magnums" etc.

As big as B&M is getting, I wondered if Rick Jamison might someday come around holding his hat out for "walkin' around money" at MIB or SSK.

And, is Rick Jamison blackballed from the gunrags now?
I always found his writing tedious anyway.

Layne Simpson: I have always found Layne Simpson fascinating, even when he gets meticulous and long winded.
The body of his work is huge, and still going strong after all these decades. I even own a 7mm STW factory rifle and a .358 STA custom.
I too lust after a 50 B&M levergun and still need to find that latest piece of his on the 50 B&M Alaskan.
Anyone seen it in Guns&Ammo?

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
9.11 v. 5.11 - freudian slip! Fixed it. Heh-Heh.

BTW, the TAG shirts in olive are good to go. Beau bought one with the Chifuti Safaris embroidery and I thought it looked very good.

Mike Nice, "Internationally known big game hunter and world record holder" is about to order a shirt! Don't say it Dave. Oh God, just don't say it.....

RIP:

Was Rick Jamison the Jamison of Jamison International?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
RIP:

Was Rick Jamison the Jamison of Jamison International?

Dave,
Perish the thought! Though a lot of people get that mistaken thought!

The Jamison of Jamison International fame is Marc Jamison. A good guy.

No relationship in any way to Rick Jamison.

quote:

As big as B&M is getting, I wondered if Rick Jamison might someday come around holding his hat out for "walkin' around money" at MIB or SSK.

Hat will go back empty, and he will draw back nothing but a numb if he has his hands out! And his walkin won't be so good either, in fact, he will be rolling around from that point on!

Nahh, too different from his stuff, things like using RUM cases puts him out.

quote:

Layne Simpson: I have always found Layne Simpson fascinating, even when he gets meticulous and long winded.
The body of his work is huge, and still going strong after all these decades. I even own a 7mm STW factory rifle and a .358 STA custom.
I too lust after a 50 B&M levergun and still need to find that latest piece of his on the 50 B&M Alaskan.
Anyone seen it in Guns&Ammo?

I always like Layne Simpson and most of his thinking and writing. I have two 358 STAs from the Custom Shop, loved them until the 9.3 B&M came along. My favorite small bore was those two 385s. In working with Layne for the articles, I found out even more about him, and everything I learned, I liked. Layne is really a good chap, easy to get along with, and has a lot of integrity! Layne like most writers today is dated on his "Bullet Tech" and is not quite there yet, but I keep working with him on some projects I will get him to come around. He is not against anything nor negative at all, he just don't know is all. Layne also is not a typical African hunter, and is not all that knowledgeable about solids and "Solid Tech". I can tell you this, he loves that 50 B&M Alaskan Lever gun. Every time I turn around he has something going on about it. There were several other unrelated articles that he made mention of it in them.

RIP--I have that article here in PDF on the website if you want.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/Articles.html

50BMAK GunsAmmo.pdf

quote:

Was Rick Jamison the Jamison of Jamison International?

Dave, if I may answer for RIP, no, not the same "Jamisons" as I understand.

Also, Behave! LOL............

Hey, talked to DWright just a bit ago! LOL..... I bought a stainless WSM with a camo stock off gunbroker about an hour ago or so. Laying in some stock guns you know. Damned if it wasn't from Mazama Sporting Goods, I did not even pay attention to that until I got an email from Dennis! LOL...... Had a good conversation, got the rifle paid for and it's on the way! Small World, eh!

Well, I have to tell you, CrossL has been on my mind! Wondering how he is doing, and if all is going well! I worry about my boys when they are out you know! And Cross is my boy! Shooting 416 B&M, and 458 Super Short, BBW#13s, loads I recommended, and so forth! Just hoping that everything goes well and is working as it should! I was the same way when Mike and Carl were out too! I am sure he is having a blast!

News from North Fork. Just got off the phone with John. And we have new 400 gr .500 caliber premium softs on the way. Will be the same profile as the 450 gr bullet, but a little less weight to work on bears and such as that, adding some velocity to match, should be excellent in the various .500 rifles here.

Later
Michael

I geared up my 50 B&M Gunkote rifle with it's "Alaskan" wet weather stock! Looks pretty spiffy to me! Turning into a hillbilly I suppose!









I love this one!!!!!!!!!

Nice looking weapon, need to do that in a 18" 9.3 now. How do you like the trijicon scope on that. If you still have that on in a couple weeks i would like to try it.

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Nice looking weapon, need to do that in a 18" 9.3 now. How do you like the trijicon scope on that. If you still have that on in a couple weeks i would like to try it.

Brent
Oh this rifle will be here. No worries. I like the Trijicon, it has held up well, no issues, and have not busted it yet. I got this one when I first got one of the first Nikons. Both which are 100% good to go. The Trijicon the only thing I am having some issue with is that I can't quite get it forward enough that I get a full field of view when throwing the rifle up quickly, have to back up on the stock a bit. It is very very close, about a 1/4 inch is all. I must try and figure a way to get it forward a 1/4 inch.

I am out of Camo Ultimate stocks WSM too, and they seem hard to come by, have not found any. Have plenty of black Ultimates and laminated.

Michael

Michael.that alaskan is what I like I will have the samething.except with ultimmate stock.I am having internet probelms here in AK so it is hit and miss to get on line.I will have to get a different systen anyway mailing out check to you today,thanks,Kev

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:
Michael.that alaskan is what I like I will have the samething.except with ultimmate stock.I am having internet probelms here in AK so it is hit and miss to get on line.I will have to get a different systen anyway mailing out check to you today,thanks,Kev

Kev

Yes, as I see it one needs a B&M ready for anything! I need One Each in Each Caliber/Cartridge, one for Alaska and one for Africa! Every home needs these things! I don't plan on being left short!

Above is my 50 B&M set up for Alaska, and below is my 50 B&M set up for Africa!

B&M Guys!

Looks like we are going to be getting serious with Jamison to obtain proper head stamped B&M brass in the near future.

At least we can speak to someone on the phone, and we can communicate via email as well.
Something not even remotely possible with HORNEBER!!!!!!!!

Spoke to Kathy today, she sees no reason at all that we can't get something sorted out for proper brass!!!!!!!! Something we will be working on from here!

Just FYI

Michael

Fanatastic news. Now maybe we will not have to wait for rem to produce 375 ultra brass on thier seemingly every few years rotation.
Thanks for making the effort.

Hi Brent-

It's really not the RUM brass that's the problem, but rather the PROPERLY headstamped brass for international travel, especially to africa. This would be a real advantage. And if there was enough B&M headstamped brass available, we wouldn't need anymore RUM brass to cut and form!

You can practice with the RUM brass, and I do so, but when some african agent is inspecting your ammo, properly headstamped brass is a necessity! Otherwise you could face confiscation of your ammunition.

BTW, I still have a 10 round B&M cartridge slide for you.

Yeah the head stamp thing is nice. Michael had my MDM engraving on the barrell to include 375 ultra just in case. I have never had anyBody look that close but you never know! I have found that if you are talking to them while they are counting that they keep having to start over and often just give up and ask how many rounds. Has happend a few

You are killing me wiht the slide You know i am traveling to the B&M lab in a couple of weeks and that Michael is going to take money from me. You guys are worse than Obummer, taking all of my money . We will see when i get back in a couple of weeks if i pulled the trigger on another B&M or not. I pick up a brand new custom 300 win mag this coming weekend. Hell, no wonder i cant hunt much this year!

Brass has always been an issue with anything like the B&Ms. The big dogs, Hornady and such, they want a 100'000 piece order! Well, that is just out of the realm of possibility. The smaller guys, Pete at Quality, did a fair job on what he had to work with. He had basic 404 from Hornady, probably around 5000 pieces. This brass is around .005 smaller than standard RUM. It does excellent in the 50, 458, 416 B&Ms, which is what I had Pete do at the time. But in the 500 MDM the brass is too small at the base, and over expands in the 500 MDM, after about 3-4 full power loads, this brass starts getting scratching on bolt lift. Its not over pressure, its the brass won't squeeze back down. Pete cannot get anymore of this brass, for the fore seeable future? So where does that leave us?

Horneber! NOT. I have $4000 invested with Dieter Horneber right now for 1000 pieces of 475 B&M and 1000 Pieces of 9.3 B&M. This has been 1 year now. He has been PAID IN FULL of course and received the money. Dieter Promised running RUM brass in January this year. Multiple emails to Dieter, I have had no answer from him since the first of the year. He ran a 1000 500 MDM brass 2 yrs ago, and it's so soft it won't hold 40000 PSI without getting sticky, so that is useless except to load dummies with. I will most likely never see that brass? There is no communications?

Sent an email to Bertram couple of weeks ago, it was returned as a mail delivery problem. Using the email Hubel gave me.

For the most part until Jamison came back online I have given up on brass! Thus the reason I have all the barrels stamped like this 500 MDM/375RUM or 458 B&M/300 RUM. I have now somewhere around 30+ hunts in different countries in Africa, have hunted Australia, Mongolia, New Zealand, and had rifles in Russia, and never once, not ever, had any of these people in any country try to match head stamped brass with the barrel. Now, that don't mean that somewhere along the line some idiot, and they are idiots, might think to do so, and it would cause a major issue if they don't match. Now I have never seen one of these nut bags, with perhaps the exception of a few in Brisbane, have enough sense to know a .308 caliber from a .500 caliber. And very few to none of them would understand taking a piece of 300RUM and turning it into a .500 caliber cartridge. So to be on the safe side, you need head stamped proper brass, or have multiple barrel markings, or BOTH.

If your Serial #s match, that is all I have ever had them look for. But you never know..........

Hopefully Jamison will come back with some reasonable numbers in which we can work with. I think they will. And if so, the B&M brass problem is and will be solved as long as Jamison is up and running and can meet the specs.

We will find out.

Michael

That will be great to have available brass.

Guess I will miss all that nice engraving that SSK Ind. puts on the barrels.

Heh fellers, as for Rick Jamison; he come's in our shop often. He lives here in Eugene and was in yesterday afternoon.
He does not write anymore, but spends most of his time traveling to different states hunting.
He's not a bad guy at all really. The real story about the lawsuit; if you knew what it was, would have you leaning on the side of Rick. I know, because I know the story.
Funny how facts can get twisted.

Michael; if you are on the lookout for more WSM actions, I'll keep you in mind and let you know when one comes in.

Dennis

Hi guys

Just got back to RSA from Zim-In lyndenburg-going for Lion wedsday.

short list-

416 B&M-

325 NC

Impalla-destroy heart

Kudu-destroy lungs huge blood trail-ran @75 yds

Buff-wrecked liver& rear portion lung-found poking threw skin on far side
follow up-350 BBW#13-penetrated pelvis broke spine found under skin top of back-slight riviting

Elephant-side brain , stunned bull-found under skin far side of skull-
finishing shot-top of skullthrough brain-not recovered

458 SS-shot 325 BBW#13 forensicly-
through skull above eyes.neck,founf in ribs approximately 6 ft penetration including skull

Lion next am using the 458 SS w/295 NC

all shots showing straigh penetration.

Wish yall were here-

much more later

Awesome report!
You shot an elephant with a 458 Super short?

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Hi guys

Just got back to RSA from Zim-In lyndenburg-going for Lion wedsday.

short list-

416 B&M-

325 NC

Impalla-destroy heart

Kudu-destroy lungs huge blood trail-ran @75 yds

Buff-wrecked liver& rear portion lung-found poking threw skin on far side
follow up-350 BBW#13-penetrated pelvis broke spine found under skin top of back-slight riviting

Elephant-side brain , stunned bull-found under skin far side of skull-
finishing shot-top of skullthrough brain-not recovered

458 SS-shot 325 BBW#13 forensicly-
through skull above eyes.neck,founf in ribs approximately 6 ft penetration including skull

Lion next am using the 458 SS w/295 NC

all shots showing straigh penetration.

Wish yall were here-

much more later

Boomy

Shoot dead elle to check penetration--that beeing said--If I had to I would because of the 6 ft + penetration but it wouldnt be my first choice n

Seems the bullet is more than capable at close range.

Croos L,

Look forward to hearing a full report. Glad you have had a good hunt.

Sa,