I believe the 500 MDM is 3.46" shortest-actual COAL and there are a few of the .500 caliber monometal bullets that push that into the 3.52"-3.58" COAL range...

Any new thoughts on a 2.25" version of the 50 B&M Alaskan? Maybe call it the 50 B&M African? Designed for the COL 2.75 of the 1886. Shoulder moved forward to give .5" neck. The extra .15" could just add enough boom room to get the most out if that platform.

Boomy

In the end, I don't see the limitation being the cartridge itself, it's the rifles with their limited Pressure ceiling that is the problem. Yes a bit more length would lower pressures, and get some velocity gain, but I don't think enough to be worth the effort. Currently the 50 B&M Alaskan is a relatively easy, simple conversion, with little or no headaches. All of the B&M rifles and cartridges are based on this ease of conversion. Ease of conversion, makes for much less issues and problems down the road. More reliability and keeps prices reasonable.

As I recall, we looked at 1886s for converting to 50 B&M AK. Something about the forearm was going to be an issue, not sure what, don't remember. M71, zero issues, Marlin 1885, zero issues. I think trying to get a longer case, is not as easy to convert, costing more, and in the end not being worth the extra effort for maybe another 100 fps or so? I think it's easier to enhance the cartridge with the bullet choice, and keep ease of conversion, reliability, and costs at the top of the list.

For instance, we don't try to build a 50 B&M on a 308 action. Use a WSM action, already designed for the larger diameter cartridge. My conversions of Single Shots to B&Ms are another example; For the 416 and 458 B&Ms, I chose a 1885 Winchester that was done in the WSM cartridges for that conversion. No worries with extractions, or other manipulations, and they work fantastic. My two 50 B&M Alaskans that are being done on Single Shots, I worked with a Ruger #1 in 45/70 and an 1885 I had here in 45/70. Easy conversion to 50 B&M AK.

I don't like trying to convert things that require a lot of manipulation, work, aggravation and too much extras. Just don't seem to work like I want them to, so there has to be some massive amount of gain to be worth the trouble and expense.

My opinion on things anyway for what it's worth.

Michael

Michael

Would you know where I could get a front sight hood for the 458 SS. I am using it daily around the ranch and need to protect the bead.

Don't know what brand of sight Brian@SSK is used.

Thanks

Cross

We use nothing but NECG front barrel bands, MasterPiece I believe.

This should be the hood for those.

http://www.newenglandcustomgun...d%20Ramp%20-%20Hoods

Michael

After riding around with the USPS for 11 days, from North Fork to South Carolina, I finally received the new

400 gr North Fork Premium Soft

50 B&M Alaskan, 50 B&M Super Short, and the 50 B&M.

Will start work today with those. First getting some load data, getting up to velocity, then start putting them in the terminal box.

Photos coming Soon.

In addition to these, I ordered 200 of the 300 gr North Fork Premiums in .458 caliber. We will also start work on load data today for the 458 B&M Super Short and the 458 B&M as well. Once done with that, these are off the the terminal box as well.

To further the study on low velocity for NE450#2, we will also test these 300s for 1400 fps or so impacts as well. Which is what turned us on to them to begin with, as somehow I missed these previously.

Now, off to get started, have brass to work, loads to load, bullets to shoot!

Michael

Yesterday Sam dropped in for the day, and we literally had a "Blast" you might say! As mentioned above, we did a lot of basic load data yesterday working primarily with the two North Fork bullets in the B&Ms.

Primary importance was the new 400 North Fork Premium Soft in .500 caliber, basic design for the lever gun 50 B&M Alaskan, but works so good as well in the 50 B&M, and I think in the end, the 50 B&M Super Short as well. Had a little case bulge issue in the 50 Super Short, so we never completed that data or work in that cartridge. But have good data in the 50 B&M AK and 50 B&M.

Marlin 50 B&M Alaskan 18 inch barrel
400 North Fork 2100 fps, with IMR 4198, H-4198 and RL 7.

Winchester M70 50 B&M 18 inch barrel
400 North Fork 2356 fps with IMR 4198.

I am pleased with these numbers.

Now, also played with the 300 gr .458 caliber North Fork Bonded as well, in 458 B&M Super Short and the 458 B&M.

Win M70 458 B&M Super Short 16 inch barrel 2500 fps with a good dose of LilGun

Win M70 458 B&M 18 inch barrel 2766 fps with 78/H-4198--screaming in 18 inches of gun. This is one of my all time favorite B&Ms, its stainless, and currently lives in an Ultimate light weight stock. Rifle weighs in at 6.5 lbs. It's been to Alaska and Australia and is a damned dream to work with.

I am working this morning to get some terminals finished with these bullets.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

... also played with the 300 gr .458 caliber North Fork Bonded as well, in ... the 458 B&M ...

Win M70 458 B&M 18 inch barrel 2766 fps with 78/H-4198--screaming in 18 inches of gun. This is one of my all time favorite B&Ms, its stainless, and currently lives in an Ultimate light weight stock. Rifle weighs in at 6.5 lbs. It's been to Alaska and Australia and is a damned dream to work with.

I am working this morning to get some terminals finished with these bullets.

Michael

That is some great external ballistics from an 18" barreled .458 B&M chambering.
Great powder, and a great bullet that will handle the velocity.
That bonded nose core will fold back over the solid copper base, and penetrate better with more velocity, not less.
Out of all proportions for a 300-grain .458 for penetration (compared to conventional),
and some heavy initial trauma on entry.
I am predicting terminal ballistics here, and guessing it will be fully qualified as a NonCon.
Well over 5000 ft-lbs from a midget rifle with a light-for-caliber bullet!!!
I will add it to my load data.

Michael

Looking through things-

have you ever worked up a load in the 458 SS with LILGUN behind the Remington 300gr for a plinking load?

If my memory serves me correctly it was Mark, Mike's youngest lad, that carried a .458 SS this year and smoked buffalo over like he was carrying a .500 !

Mark must have spent some time on that gun before the hunt, he could cycle.. aim and shoot quicker than I could keep count of the shots.

This cartridge, and the .50 ss, are real jems.
Short, light with plenty of punch.

Heck, I've seen toy water-pistols that were bigger and weighed more than these little Super Shorts.

.458 & 50 Super Shorts ROCK !

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael

Looking through things-

have you ever worked up a load in the 458 SS with LILGUN behind the Remington 300gr for a plinking load?

Cross

Not with LilGun--for some reason, I can't say why, I always use 2400 for those. 30/2400 with nearly any of the 300s to 350s give you 1650-1700 with 300s and 1500 or so with the 350s, 400s too! Like a fat 22, lots of fun, very very accurate. PopGun!

I tested the 300 North Fork low velocity loads yesterday, 30/2400.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
If my memory serves me correctly it was Mark, Mike's youngest lad, that carried a .458 SS this year and smoked buffalo over like he was carrying a .500 !

Mark must have spent some time on that gun before the hunt, he could cycle.. aim and shoot quicker than I could keep count of the shots.

This cartridge, and the .50 ss, are real jems.
Short, light with plenty of punch.

Heck, I've seen toy water-pistols that were bigger and weighed more than these little Super Shorts.

.458 & 50 Super Shorts ROCK !

Paul

Well, close, Mark David was using the 475 Super Short this past hunt. And you are correct, it put buffalo in the dirt, absolutely amazing.

Fact of the matter, I was more impressed with the results from the 50 and 475 Super Shorts than I was my own 475 B&M. Maybe my expectations were too high for the bigger B&M. I saw no difference in it than any of the 458 B&Ms. My big mess up this year was forgetting to use those same 320 NonCons Mark David was so successful with in the 475 B&M at 2300, in the 475 B&M at 2650 fps! I brought those to test, then completely forgot I had them, they went unused. I think those would have been impressive on the buffalo, at over 300 fps faster than Mark Davids bullet! But, in the end, I don't think the 475 B&M does anything that the 458 B&M can't do, and if I was going to make a jump in caliber, much better off going straight to the 50 B&M.

M

Paul,

Have you got your 500NE yet? Just wondering how you like it. As to Mark David shucking, man that boy is a machine when it comes to working a bolt gun. I thought Michael was pretty fast but he was left off to the side watching buffalo fall! HEE HEE

Michael,

I agree with you that the Non cons like velocity and heavier isn't always better. "Heavier isn't always better". I can't believe I just said that! I've always been a heavy bullet big bore fan but we are talking non conventional here. I saw as you and Paul did that my 500NE with the 475 grain Non cons (tipped) were more effective on buffalo than the 535 grain Non con without a tip. That extra velocity made a BIG difference.

Both the 475 Super Short and the 50 Super Short were very effective little tiny guns. Big Mathew with the 50 Super Short looked like he was carring one of those Cricket 22s.

Sam

Sam, incoming pm.

Paul.

Mike, ofcourse I'm certainly not going to argue with any of the above, especially when I know it is all spot on the mark.

Those C.E.B's LOVE velocity.

A freind of mine got some from Daryl a little while ago (370gn) .458 cal and loaded them in his Lott (my old CZ rifle).
He punched a big bull that was quartering away with the first shot entering just behind the last rib (or thereabouts) and it exited the neck in front of the off-side shoulder.

Whats interesting about the above is that there were two exit holes from petals that had also driven all the way through !!

Damn shame you didn't get around to trying those 320gners.
We might have to try them on the next trip

Wow!
Awesome report!
370 Non Con you say? .252 SD
.2 SD on up and high velocity Non Cons and Raptors = devastation!

Boom Stick, my Buddy wasn't real keen on changing the bullets he has been using, if anything, only because of habit and they shoot well in his rifle.

At my insistance he bought some 370gners originally intended on trying to get more out of his .458 Win mag, but at the last minute he loaded them in some very mild loads for his Lott (a rifle I only just sold to him).

Now, after having seen the damage and destruction caused by the C.E.B's, he's a sworn convert and is laying in quite a batch of them in various calibers that he owns and shoots.

He was telling me that the shank of that 370gn slug mentioned was still in the neck of that buffalo somewhere but the wound channel was so dramatic that despite a reasonable effort it was not recovered. Just pulp, coagulated (sp ?) blood and gore.

He noted two seprate (by quite some distance apparently) exits created by the petals which had travelled almost four feet of buffalo, one exiting near the top side of the neck in front of the shoulder and the other lower down near the brisket.
Again proving that the petals sheer and move away from the main shank.

Paul.

Paul




Goes back to where I am going with lighter NonCons, higher velocity. The penetration is there, and the extra trauma is just incredible.

Was this Simon? I forget who got your Lott.

That is a pretty impressive bit of work for a 370 gr .458 caliber bullet!

Michael

"Paul



Goes back to where I am going with lighter NonCons, higher velocity. The penetration is there, and the extra trauma is just incredible.

Was this Simon? I forget who got your Lott.

That is a pretty impressive bit of work for a 370 gr .458 caliber bullet!

Michael"

Without a doubt, for those that haven't seen it the trauma created is quite difficult to adequately describe.

I have had some animals that I have put finishing or stopping shots into that produce flows of blood protruding three or four inches out of the body, flowing constantly like a water tap.
One in particular, the entry wound was plugged with clay, sticks and all sorts of other things but we could not stop the blood flow to allow clean pictures to be taken.

No... not Simon, but Glenn and he only really loaded them very mild.

Paul.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:

He noted two seprate (by quite some distance apparently) exits created by the petals which had travelled almost four feet of buffalo, one exiting near the top side of the neck in front of the shoulder and the other lower down near the brisket.
Again proving that the petals sheer and move away from the main shank.

Paul.

Paul

I've never even seen these bullets, but somehow I doubt if a tiny petal would be able to penetrate 4 feet of bull.

Even more so if the petal sheared off at the first 2-3" of entry.

Should I be wrong, it would be an amazing performance indeed.

Pyzda

Paul

I've never even seen these bullets, but somehow I doubt if a tiny petal would be able penetrate 4 feet of bull.

Even more so if the petal sheared off at the first 2-3" of entry.

Should I be wrong, it would be an amazing performance indeed.

Pyzda


Pyzda,

I am relaying a field report from a trusted freind who has been a professional hunting guide for 20+ years and is one of my closest personal freinds.

His word, to me, is as solid as the floor I stand on.
If Glenn said that's what happened, then as far as I am concerned that is exactly what happened, you may, and have every right to dismiss these findings, as many others are choosing to do.

He has no stake in C.E.B, recieves no benefits, no commisions and no discounts.

He too was sceptical and initially rejected all of my attempts to get him to try this new projectile technology.

I damn near had to buy the bullets for him.

You can dismiss this report if you wish.

Good health and good hunting to you Sir.

Paul

as we all know, strange thing do happen in hunting.

Even the most bizare and totally unbelievable things can and do happen from time to time.

I've never seen a tiny bit of brass to penetrate 4 feet of bull at any velocity.

I will also never totally dispute anything what I personally don't see.

I have my reservation, but I never said it didn't happen either.

We have here plenty of hunters who use these bullets and Michael done enough of testing these bullets so there should be plenty of solid evidence what these petals can or can't do.

I'm more than happy to be proven wrong. It only helps me to come to the grips with a low weight high velocity bullets.


Pyzda

As for the "blades" as I prefer to call them, since they slice instead of push, are 100% consistent, in aqueous consistent medium. Animal tissue is aqueous of course, however far from consistent with many varying factors and tissues. While it would not be consistently possible for a blade to travel that far, it is very possible that one on occasion could find a void in denser tissue and do most anything. Too many variables in the field to discount much of anything.


I am working hard on some projects here, #1 this weekend, well, this morning actually and yesterday, is with a Marlin Guide gun in 50 B&M Alaskan. Yesterday I was working getting some serious bullets up and running proper in the rifle. CrossL PH in South Africa has a Guide Gun ordered and in the works in 50 BM AK. Now I told him right up front that I did not feel that this was a day in day out, everyday backup rifle, especially for the heavies, and he would be far better suited with the 50 B&M for that purpose. However, he is HELL BENT on the little lever gun--But promises me that he understands my concerns on this matter, and does not intend to use the rifle in that capacity--very much anyway!!!! As many of you realize, when it comes to these sort of things, I do tend to be somewhat conservative. At least until I see different for myself. I have neglected taking the 50 B&M Alaskan to the field, so I can't say what I think it can or cannot do. I have the test work, or most of it anyway, and have a damn good idea of it's capabilities, but I cannot profess that until proven beyond the doubt.

I am working seriously on 4 different bullets and combinations. Yesterday, I worked on getting data up to speed in this particular Guide Gun--Marlin 18 inch barrel, same rifle I tested the 400 North Forks in this past week. I have tested these bullets, which really are designed rather specifically for this cartridge/rifle, but I tested in the 50 B&M and the 50 Super Short. Close but not actual velocities of the Alaskan.

335 BBW#13 NonCon HP--375 BBW#13 Solid, and 405 BBW#13 Solid--365 BBW#13 NonCon. This is what I am working on today. Obvious reasons I think you understand. While I think I have a good idea, must have the actual data and test work to back it, from the actual rifle/cartridge combination.

I am conservative on these things for many reasons. Before recent activities with these B&M Super Shorts, I would have never ever said they can accomplish what they have until field work was done. Now I have an entirely new view of these Super Shorts, combined with these bullets we have. They may be short, but they damn sure don't come up short on performance! Far exceeding my expectations. I believe the same will come of this Lever Gun and 50 B&M AK as well, once in the field.

I had scheduled to actually take a 50 B&M AK to Australia with Paul, but in between decisions I decided to take the two Super Shorts instead for the boys, and 9.3 and 475 B&M for myself. Leaving the lever gun at home, again! I know that there are a LOT of 50 B&M AKs out there, many of them in contenders, this is one of JDs favorite B&Ms. Most being built by guys that I don't know or have contact with, so I am not getting those reports. Layne Simpson loves his, but has not had time to get it on a hunt yet. Talking to Layne this week and giving him results on some of the bullet testing, he is off to a mule deer hunt Tuesday, with a 454 Casull of all things. I think its for an upcoming article of his.

So for me today, off to the range to get some terminals with the lever gun, which I will report on later as I get things sorted and data recorded.

Michael

New B&M Leather Goods Starting to trickle in!

Michael

Are any of the cartridge slides being made for the SS's?

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Michael

Are any of the cartridge slides being made for the SS's?

I thought about it! Does that count? HEH..... I will work on that.


OK, am I the only guy that went out on Halloween? Have heard of no one else doing so?
OK OK here it is, I was a B&M Pirate! LOL...........



After a full liter of really good Sake, I was caught chasing the duck!

It looks like at least one of you had fun!

At least Mercedes was smiling!

I'm just praying he didn't actually catch that duck !

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
I'm just praying he didn't actually catch that duck !

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
I'm just praying he didn't actually catch that duck !

Uh oh...DocM, methinks you are being maligned here lol

I bet Doc M "ducks" the question---

Michael,
How do I order one of those leather goodies?

Enquiring minds want to know!

What happened to the duck, DocM??

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
I bet Doc M "ducks" the question---

quote:

What happened to the duck, DocM??

Both "Duck" and myself survived the ordeal!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Michael,
How do I order one of those leather goodies?

Drop me an email!

M

Absolutely beautiful leathergoods! Are you going to possibly bring a few of them to the DSC show?

Now if the pirate had had a hook, he really would have had a chance catching that duck...

Max

Yes, will have leather goods at DSC. Very nice stuff!

Hook! Yes, I might would have been having "duck Dinner" if I would have had a hook!

I suppose it's for the best, I don't care for duck anyway!

LOL......

M

There goes my spending money...maybe won't be able to buy as much booze for Saturday night's party.