The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 416-458-50 SS-50 B&M Series Cartridges/RiflesGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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SSR, I shot Michael’s 416 B&M back on May 24th however it was the 7 ½ lb AI Walnut stocked 416 B&M rather than the 6 ½ lb Ultimate stocked rifle. Here’s the thread hyperlink to my comments: http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/9111029801/p/13 Prior to shooting Michael’s 416 B&M (AI stock), 458 B&M (1- AI stock and 1-Ultimate stock), 50 B&M (AI stock) and 50 B&M SS (Ultimate stock) my idea of the perfect large caliber/DG rifle included a 22” to 24” barrel (26” if built for speed-goats) with sufficient weight to subdue recoil. My two favorite B&M rifles are the 416 and 50 stocked with AI Walnut stocks…both at 7 ½ lbs or perhaps ¼ lb less… and if they had 1” longer pull lengths Michael likely would not have gotten them back…only some $$ in the mail. I did not have issue with the lighter weight Ultimate stock, in fact I preferred the 6 ½ lb 458 B&M Ultimate stocked rifle over the 7 ½ lb AI stocked rifle due to the AI’s sharp comb (rather than the more rounded comb of the 416 and 50) which dug into my cheek bone during recoil. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Take a hard look at the .416 B&M. I shot Michaels little rifle a while back, and was extremely impressed. I have also been testing a custom .416 Taylor, and the .416 Remington. My take was this: The Taylor can have problems with various makes of brass. The only stuff that would work in the one I shot was .458 Win. brass. All the stuff out there headstamped .416 Taylor, had belt issues that caused the bolt to lock up! No good. The Remington, a much too heavy gun that loosens your teeth a little much for fast accurate shooting in a battle with anything big and close that is trying to kill you. The B&M, because if it's case design can be had in a small, light, accurate, easy shooting little rifle, that is great fun and which would be my first choice for it's intended purpose. Out to about 350 yards on medium game, it will work just fine with a bit of practice. My choice would hands down be the B&M version. | |||
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Capo and DWright, Thanks for the input. Light per se doesnt mean as much as balanced and nimble which is what I realloy likie about the B&M rifles. My major concern about the B&M is making the cases, I have reloaded for years but always just straight factory specs--making cases for a wildcat is new territory. Guess I had better PM Michael and see what he has in the 416. Never hurts to check. Have also found a blue Winchester custom shop in 416 rem -its nice to have these kind of choices.  Am gonna end up with a 416 something  SSR | |||
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SSR, The AI stocked B&M's are definitely well balanced and very nimble. Michael worked with Accurate Innovations in reshaping and shortening the stock fore end to better match the short B&M barrels. The extra 1-1 ½ lb weight of the Walnut stock vis-à-vis the synthetic Ultimate stock is well distributed between the hands so is not noticeable in handling. Brass…Michael has purchased thousands of properly headstamped brass from Quality Cartridge covering all of his B&M cartridges; the only issue that he has had was with the 500 MDM QC brass...all others worked just fine. Otherwise they’re easily made from RUM brass though they’ll not have the correct headstamp. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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If its like the 458B&M, its quite an easy process ... one of the easiest wildcats you'll ever load for. I use 300RUM brass ... I cut them either to exact length or just a bit longer. I then run the first case into the FL die and trim it to length as it will lengthen. This first one is important as you want to set your die so that there is a definite but slight feel on closing the bolt. Trimming is assisted by using an undersized pilot ... I use a 0.452" for my 458cal, in a 416cal I'd use a 0.411". Makes it easier to turn.  With the die adjusted to give some 'feel', lock it in, run your brass through, trim to final length and away you go. Fireform your brass sighting in, once you have 50 pieces of brass your set.I was 'playing' with my 458B&M last night thinking its actually not a rifle I like very much at all. I built it on a stainless/synthetic Ruger action with 22" barrel. I think Michael was correct, I'll lop another 2" off the barrel (cant bring myself to go under 20" as it handles beautifully) ... then this rifle has the potential to be a 'big bore safe clearer'. As a committed gun-whore who loves playing with rifles, having the type of rifle you could see yourself shooting to the exclusion of all others is not a pleasant thought. The concept is just absolutely spot-on. I'm having a Stevens 300WinMag rebarrelled to 458WinMag to run head to head with my 458B&M. Will be fascinating to see the two pitted against each other ... but the shorter handier rifle I think will win out in the carry-ability and handiness stakes. A friend is shortening his 458AccRel to 20" and lightening it up. This will beat the 458B&M for speed, but I think it may become a bit 'too much' rifle when lightened up. Very clever package is the B&Ms ... but of all I think the 45cal is just heads and shoulders above the others particularly in Australia where 50cal pills and barrels are hard to source, 416cal pills are at a premium ... the 458 is just absolutely spot-on! Cheers... Con | |||
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Con, Go ahead and lop 4 inches off and then you won't have to cut it but once. The first 458 B&M I built I felt I needed more barrel even though I'm a short barrel person. I made the barrel 20 inches and the next day cut it to 18. The only B&Ms I would want a longer barrel than 18 is maybe the 9.3, 375 and 416. Getting ready to build a 416 and it still might end up 18. Sam | |||
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Con, Good comments on using the 300 RUM brass for B&M cartridges…they’re spot on. I recently picked up a M77 SS short action in 300 SAUM; I’ve not shot it yet nor have I decided which B&M cartridge to turn it into or whether to keep it as is. I did however determine it’s the perfect magazine size (unmodified) for Michael’s 458 B&M SA or the 50 B&M SA as both use the SAUM case and cartridge length. I just might pick up a second and convert it to 458 B&M SA (would be great on pigs, bears, and other similar critters) and keep my current 300 SAUM for varmint shooting. I think you friend will be just fine with a 20” barrel on his 458 AccRel…cartridge performance should be just fine and he can always all a little weight in the fore end under the barrel for balance it needed. Myself, I finally settled on a 19” barrel on my 50 MDM…build as a warm/hot weather gun. I ran QL scenarios for every .500 caliber bullet that was available at the time and there was very little velocity difference between an 18” barrel and a 21” barrel in ½” barrel increments when referencing barrel harmonics/timing numbers. So why 19” rather than 18” barrel?...simple, I require a 1” longer pull length than Michael for warm/hot weather work and I wanted the rifle to be visually balanced as well as handling balanced hence the 1” longer barrel. Were I building a cold weather gun I’d copy Michael’s B&M in pull length and barrel length. I have to admit though, Michael’s little Ultimate stocked 50 B&M Super Short with 16.25” barrel was definitely a fun gun to handle and shoot…and I was wearing a short sleeve tee shirt! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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My pal Daryl Lenkic, in Australia, he bought a remington something or other and is going to use the 458 B&M SA (Semi-Auto) cartridge in that thing too! I did my best, pleaded with him, even threatened him with bodily harm for doing such a thing, but finally relented to let him do it. Cartridge is fine for that, but JHC to put it on a "R", that still is painful for me to digest, gives me a sour stomach! Speaking of 458 B&M SA--Dies from Hornady came into SSK today! Big heavy 458 B&M SA DPMS is built and ready to go now--Brian says he will be shooting it next week. The two SAs are 2 inch RUM cases. Built "primary" for the DPMS Semi Autos--damned things weight 10 lbs! Fun to shoot however. The 50 B&M SA works like a champ, no issues at all. Matthew, my oldest had it out a couple of weeks ago, with some old loads that were 4 yrs old and he was shooting 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds and the trigger is HORRIBLE on it. The semi's are ok, fun, but I don't have the passion for them that I do the bolt guns in the B&Ms. The 458 SA should be a hammer, not far under 458 Win and will be at it's best with 350s and 400s. I hope Brian keeps it a few weeks playing with it, I really am not in the mood to start load development on that. Cross I have good basic head stamped 416 B&M brass on hand, in addition to a LOT of RUM brass that I had cut and trimmed to basic length--2.240. All you have to do is run it in the size die and start shooting. Cutting the brass is not really a big deal, but I don't have the time to start cutting lots of 500 at a time. So I have a friend of mine, that needs some extra $$ from time to time, and I pay him $0.75 each to cut and trim the brass to length--after a order of 500 from Midway I have a $1.50 each in it, and you or anyone with a B&M rifle is welcome to it at just that price. The head stamped brass from Quality is more expensive--I had Pete do the same thing, I only wanted basic brass, not for them to try and form it, so it is cut, trimmed to basic and ready to load too. It also lasts nearly forever too--depends on your shooting, but I am still shooting all the brass I started with (except 50 B&M and finally had to chunk it after god knows how many times it was shot) in 458 and 416. If you are a normal individual, you won't ever wear the brass out. I don't like to say this much, but here we are, I don't want to sound like one of these "Tactical" nut cases (Which when I was younger I used to be), but today, these 50 B&M and 458 B&M, are the finest handling, fighting, go to war with buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard, bear, rifles that have ever been in the hands of man! Nothing handles like they do, nothing carries like they do, nothing points as quickly and easy as they do--No Bolt gun I ever handled anyway. This is what I designed them for, this is their sole job in life. Every time I pick up one of my own 22-24 inch 416s, 458 Wins, 458 Lotts, 470 Capsticks, and don't even think about the 510 Wells, I wonder what or how in the world I ever went to the field with such a beast, long, heavy, unwieldy, awkward feeling rifles--compared to what I have now! Photos and talk don't cut it--got to lay hands on one to understand. You can't imagine how many times I have watched the light bulb come on the minute someone throws it to their shoulder!!!!! At that moment, that millisecond in time--They Know exactly what they are all about! Thanks too for all the kind words about the rifles from the guys out there! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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We had a lovely day out yesterday, puttering around the farm. I had to go over and check some fire lines, hopefully getting ready to do some burning soon. Had to show my little "Farm Rifle" and how nice it fits on the "farm wheeler". This is one of the 50 B&M Super Shorts.    Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Looks good! Another version of the coach gun Quad gun? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomy Coach Guns--yep, that's about right! Man they make such handy little rigs when out doing things like that. We have a guy in Alaska running trap lines, and he carries a 50 Super Short, he sent some photos recently I need to dig them up. He would not part with his, handiest rifle he has ever used doing that sort of thing! If I was puttering around in AK that's exactly my rig as well. Might have to have a battery of them, 18 inch 458 B&M, and maybe a 18 inch 416 B&M as well. Those are only 2.5 inches longer than the Super Shorts, about a 1/4 lb heavier. But, 2.5 inches is still a bit! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael What do you think of a 510 B&M capable of shooting the 535 Woodleigh softs @ 2100 and 570's at 2,000? 100 yard fighting gun shooting the 510's? A good hippo on land gun. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomy Still working at it! HEH..... Ok, Of course it's a good idea, and would be a great cartridge. But, let's consider the B&M concept overall. It's not just about the cartridge alone. It's the Trio--Rifle/Cartridge/Bullet that encompasses the entire concept of the B&M. The cartridge is not a stand alone concept itself. While the cartridges are good cartridges, they can be exceeded by others, but at a terrible cost in increased size of the rifle of course. The B&M concept needs to be in a short, fast, handy, easy to carry package first and foremost, it is first and foremost a "dangerous game rifle" so the cartridge needs to be capable of handling that duty, and combined with really good bullets for the game intended, we increase the capabilities of the rifle and cartridge combination. And, of course the B&M Series, built on WSM rifles, slim trim Winchester M70s, it is my belief currently that .500 caliber is as large as we can fit 3 cartridges down in the magazine of these, feed, retain, and function proper as a DGR. Using the RUM case is perfect fit for these rifles, as there is little work to do in the magazine, and none on the bolt face to make these work 100%. To do a .510 we first need a larger case capacity than a 2.25 inch RUM case can handle. We can't take the 2.25 inch RUM case out to handle .510. Case is too thick at the mouth, and would leave no taper at all, if not oversized at the mouth. So the RUM case is out, and finished at .500 caliber at 2.25. Any larger case used, would limit magazine capacity to 2 down max. Now I really don't have a big issue with 2 down only. Personally, I can do that and not have any concern. But many folks would have a bit issue with that. Probably have to go to single stack to make it work. It might be possible to take a rigby case, shorten it, and go to a 2.25 inch case at .510, maybe make it work with 2 down, and not single stack? That might be possible. You guys tell me you think that the bolt face can be sorted out to take the Rigby rim? Maybe so, and that would not be a big deal maybe. Another option is to turn the rigby rim down to fit in the existing bolt face--I might would rather move in that direction myself, and with SRose on my side, that would be easy to do as well. Other cases, I am just not so sure about being able to do? As per my ignorance. I do have some rigby brass, and that might be interesting for me to take a look at, since I am "Declared Unfit For Shooting Duty" at present! Of course, if you have ideas about other cases that might do this sing out, and anyone else with ideas about it sing as well. We can look at this. Ya'll don't let this slip my mind between now and in the morning, I will cut a few rigbys and see what it looks like???? Bullet weights--I would cut that weight back on solids probably to 500-520 grs, good CEB BBW#13 at 2100 or so would give more penetration than anything you would ever need in a lifetime of shooting. Back that with a NonCon--Big time Winner in a very very short handy, fast, .510! Just got to find the right house for a cartridge? Rigby? Something Else? Can't be too complicated? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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So the only way to make it work would be inside neck reaming or longer or a larger case is what I'm getting. Someone did a 510 WSM so I figured a 2.25" case could work. If going single stack then I'd rather see a 577 on the Gibs case. Question is at what length rum brass is it possible to go 510? Was thinking about the 500 MDM with it's mini shoulder and thought maybe a 510 could be cool but maybe shorter. The 500 MDM is great but just pondering the idea of the 510's Thanks. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomy, You could use the RSAUM or RUM case at their full-length up to .510 caliber but they'd be shoulderless like the 50 B&M cartridge. If you want the 2.240" case length then you'd need to inside or outside ream the neck to reduce the wall thickness. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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If your going to the trouble of making a new length case at 2.24, wouldnt you make it a NO TURN NECK and build it into the specs | |||
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Most definitely; Jeffe was correct in using the Rigby case as the basis of his .510 AccRel cartridge. In this case I was merely answering Boomy’s question… A .510 caliber bullet in the RUM case is at the cusp of failure to meet Ackley’s required minimum 0.0075” taper to afford reliable extraction. A .505 caliber would be a better fit than a .510 caliber…but Michael is correct in his statement that the .500 caliber bullet is the practical limit for the RUM case. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Matter of taste (or function) but I'd dump the bases and rear sight on the banger and install a fixed peep on the rear end of the receiver. Er .. I'd just machine one in SS to match the rifle.  | |||
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Boomy
Yes, I recall. Brass on WSM is thinner at the mouth at 2.1 than RUM at 2.25. Also, WSM brass is thinner at 1.65 than RUM at 1.65. This is why I do the SUper Shorts on WSM instead of RUM. I had some of the head stamped RUM cut and trimmed to 1.65, then some very serious inside reaming done to eliminate much of the bulge from the bullet, for taking the 50 Super Short out of country. Still not the best solution, but better than nothing. If I can ever get Horneber 500 MDM brass (SOON MAYBE) then I will have Horneber make a run of some Super Shorts.
The basic 500 MDM Quality brass will take a .510. So a 2.8 inch RUM will work in that capacity. While this could be done on one of the Winchesters in RUM, with the 500 MDM you are moving away now from the shorter rifle, going with a bigger action, and with the 500 MDM I see little practical point in the trouble to do so. To move to a .510 in that capacity, makes more sense to do a 510 AR. Although not so easy on the M70. So.......... S&F
Absolutely correct, but in itself not an easy chore to accomplish! It's difficult to get proper brass done. Always great to have a reliable backup source of available brass, especially doing the sort of shooting I do. J
Yes, one could do that and it would be nice. Here was my solution to that at one point.  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Yes, the 500 MDM. It is a different beast, hence the name is not 500 B&M or any real part of the B&Ms as I really feel like it is getting away from the DG Carbine concept, to some degree. The 500 MDM was on the books shortly after the 50 B&M, 458 B&M and 416 B&M. It took a long time as I was dragging my feet on it, really didn't need or want it. My feeling, I had just found and got away from the bigger, heavier rifles, now why would I go back to that? So the project was put off for a very long time, 3 years or better. First 500 MDM rolled out the beginning of 2009--The B&M project started fall of 2005. All three of my personal 500 MDMs have 21 inch barrels. I figured I needed that much to get that 95-110 grs of powder burned. Like a lot of things, I appear to have underestimated the way things burn in .500 caliber, as Paul Truccolos 20 inch 500 MDM gives basically the same velocities overall as my 21 inch barrels. Maybe 10-15 fps at most, if that??? At the capacities and pressures the 500 MDM runs at, you could have a 18 inch 500 MDM, which would really blow your mind! I mean come on, at 21 inches and 60000 PSI you can run a 500 gr CEB BBW#13 at 2600 fps! So what if you drop that velocity way down and pressures and still can have more velocity than you ever could use in the field! There are cartridges that exist that you can make DG Carbines out of, and have all you need and some more that exist outside the B&M range. There are a lot of existing cartridges that won't make it too. And, a lot of the issues with some of the ones that can do that, it is still going to need a bigger, longer, action to handle the cartridge. I am very sure that Jeffes 500 AR is at the top of the list on one of those that can be put in a Carbine type short rifle. But I am just not sure what sort of rifle that you can use for that, and what the end weight and bulk would be??? Maybe Jeffe can help with that? His line of ARs in 458 and 470 can do the same, they are based on RUM cases, and would do excellent at under 20 inches, with room to spare!!! I know that as a fact. Another that can help on the 500 AR is Buffalo, as he is working on one right now. So there are cartridges out there, but you have to choose wisely to achieve the end goal. 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, 458 Winchester based cases cannot serve in this roll and maintain performance. Let's look at 458 Winchester quickly. I have done pressure traces on loads I used to use. Now in 24 inches with a 450 Swift A I could get 2260 fps in 24 inches of barrel. In 22 inches of barrel I would get 2190 fps. I never tested under 22 inches, but let's say that trend continued and at 18 inches that same 450 Swift would be 2050 fps. Now that is very effective, and it will do the job on buffalo, I have zero doubt of that, and matched with a good solid, you are in business. But, if we look at the little 458 B&M we can run that same 450 Swift A Frame at 2200 fps in that same 18 inch barrel, even a tiny bit better or equal to a 22 inch 458 Winchester. In fact, I am taking my English 458 B&M to Africa in June, I will be using a 450 CEB BBW#13 Solid at 2200 fps, and the matching 420 NonCon at 2250 fps as my POI load for buffalo. Let's look at 458 Lott. I have both 24 inch and 22 inch versions. In a 24 inch Win M70 that I have carried many a damned mile, standard load was a 500 gr Bullet at 2270 fps, Barnes Banded, Swift and Woodleigh Softs. Going to one of my 20 inch guns, 2200 fps. Pretend all is the same and we go to an 18 inch tube and we would be in the area of 2050-2060 fps once again. Yes, that will do, there is no doubt about it you can do anything you want with that. And now in that same 458 B&M I can run a 500 at 2100-2125 fps in that same 18 inch barrel. I am taking a few of those 480 CEB BBW#13s at 2160 fps, I like those bullets! No need for a 500 with those at all, regardless of cartridge. In the 470 Capstick I experienced the same exact thing and equal drops in performance. These are H&H based cases. With the way they burn there is so much inside barrel capacity that you have to have to get that efficiency I suppose. Now, don't take this wrong, I am not a "efficiency" expert, and in fact think it's basically sales BS Bunk in lesser calibers. What I have experienced with the fat RUM cases, and the large diameter calibers has shown me a few things, that fat cartridges can burn if diameter is sufficient to give enough cubic inches in which to burn. For instance, 50 B&M. 18 inches has always been standard length on the 50 B&M. I had a 20 inch gun done. I gained ZERO velocity across the board in many different bullets on average. Billy, the B wanted his at 16 Inches! So it was chopped to 16 inches he lost 15 fps on average across several loads. Not much in 2 inches of barrel length. I still prefer and would rather have 18 inches however. Dropping to the 416 B&M I started to see some differences between 20 inches which has and remains standard, and one 18 inch rifle I have. Some of the lighter bullets, like the 330 NonCons, I would loose 50-75 fps in that two inches, some of the 400 gr loads I would only loose 30 fps in the two inches. But none the less, as diameter of the barrel started going down, I could see more of a loss in velocity than the larger calibers. 458 B&M makes some gains in 20 inches, but at 18 inches it is a bit more handy and still very capable, so I am running around with the 18 inch guns. It's my theory that longer, thinner cartridges cannot do as well and give the performance I want in the field on average, such as the H&H based cases. Others like Jeffes AR cartridges, oh yes, they can perform in the DG Carbine configuration easy! I am sure you can get probably exceed lott performance in 20 inches with the 458 AR. I would do a 18 inch 458 AR and you would be dandy.
Well IBT, consider it confirmed! Been there, done it, seen it, know it. It's a fact. Take any given velocity and the same design bullet, 458 and .500, and .500 knocks the hell out of them, and it is noticeable by all, not just PHs, but my wife noticed it the first time a 50 B&M went to the field. My PHs that have been with me notice it as well. Nothing wrong with 458, love them to death. But .500 hits harder, very noticeable reactions on buffalo and elephant, and everything that has thin skin! This is my appeal to the 50 B&M and it's size. At anything from 6.5-8 lbs totally dependent upon stock and overall length of 38.5 inches--A full 7 inches shorter than my standard 24 inch 458 Lott and anything from 3 lbs to 1.5 lbs lighter--the 50 B&M hits animals every bit as hard, buffalo and elephant, as the 458 Lott does. The elephant and buffalo I have shot with the 50 have not been with the new CEB at 2150 fps, but the older copper SSK solid at 2100 fps. No proper shearing NOnCons have been used in the 50 B&M as well. But every bit as effective as a 458 lott with 150 fps or more of velocity behind it. Now, add the new 500 gr CEB BBW#13 2150 fps, matching 460 CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP 2250 fps, 450 gr North Fork CPS 2325 fps, and I think the 50 B&M will out perform the 458 Lott by a margin, and then take into consideration the size of the rifle, it's a no brainer issue to me! I know what will be left in the safe at home, and what will be in my hands in the field! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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IBT I got a little carried away, upstairs, and left out something of great importance. In 2009 I went to Australia for buffalo. 10 days. It was the first outing for the 500 MDM. That was the 21 inch Mrytle stocked rifle, 9.5 lbs with a 1.5X5 Leupold. 41 Inches overall. That is a small rifle, for the caliber and cartridge combo, but much larger than a standard 18 inch B&M. On that same trip I carried an 18 inch 458 B&M, 38.5 inches overall, and 8.5 lbs with a 1.5X5 Leupold, only 1 lb lighter, and 2.5 inches less overall, don't sound like much eh? First 5 days I carried and shot the 500 MDM. The last 5 days I carried and shot the 458 B&M. I tell you right now the honest truth, I was damned happy to get to that little 458 B&M when the time came. It seemed to me that there was just a world of difference in the size of these rifles, far more than the actual numbers would dictate. The 500 MDM felt like a big rifle, in comparison to the 458 B&M. I can't even fathom in my mind EVER the rest of my life going to the field with a 24 inch barreled, 45.5 inch 10 lb beast again! It's not in the works for me. Now this takes nothing into account about handling ability. Below I am going to show you my old Custom Shop, 24 inch 458 Lott. Then Paul's new 500 MDM with a 20 inch barrel, and a 50 B&M with 18 inch barrel. Now no doubt about it, the 500 MDM is a big hammer, and far more effective than either the 458 Lott, by great margins, and the 50 B&M by some margin, my opinion. A 20 inch 500 MDM, slim forend, Accurate Innovations stock at 8.5 lbs with this Turkish wood, starts to handle very good, getting some closer to handling like a B&M, not quite there, but getting closer. The forend on the 500 MDM that I am taking to Africa felt like a 4X4, I sent it to Accurate Innovations for a "Slim and Trim" job, and it's now on it's way back. While my rifle is English, and has a 21 inch barrel, I hope it feels like and is close to handling as good as Paul's rifle that is going to Australia.   Again, as I prepare to leave for RSA and Zimbabwe in June, I am taking that same combination, 500 MDM and a 458 B&M. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thanks for the stream of consciousness thinking. James Joyce would have loved it! As for the 50 cal, there's too much "evidence" to poo hoo its effect. I am curious why and hope to pull a few more scalp hairs thinking about it. One other thing is recoil. I watched the AI videos showing shooting of a couple of your rifles very closely. Even when the rifle appeared to be very losely held, none of the shooters appeared to be "injured", although there may have been some brusing from the lose hold. Which brings me to stock shape. Doctari is a real fanatic when it comes to stock shape. The Kilimanjaro Doctari Rifle stock is built to his specs. Next DSC convention, I'm going to have to handle one of those to "feel" the difference. Doctari says of his stock design, "I have for many years been involved with the training of PHs and guides. Everyone who has passed through my hands has been able to handle and shoot my personal .505. And I have never found anyone who cannot shoot my rifle. It just seems to somehow fit everyone, from 99-pound ladies to big hulking bruisers like myself. I have not come across many rifles in my time that just seem to fit everyone like mine does, and this is what I think makes it different." Worth checking. I supposed recoil testing of the B&M's for both total and acceleration would be interesting. But that would leave out the stock effect and proper holding of the rifle. Lastly, I've been interested in the claims made for the forward ignition cartridge design. I haven't constructed any myself, but from what I read, it's not very difficult at all. PS. Given the shape of the shells for the B&M line, I wonder what effect the SuperPerformance powder would have? Obviously, I've got too much time on my hands.  | |||
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IBT
The boys and girls at Accurate Innovations, have little, if any at all, and most no big bore experience at all. So they had quite a time of it I think. As you say, there seemed to be no injuries per say. With some big bore experience even the 500 MDM is easy to handle at normal, reasonable working velocities. Now with top velocity with the 500 BBW#13 at 2600 fps it gets a little hateful, but who in the hell needs a 500 solid at 2600 fps in the field? Not needed. My buffalo load out is these three bullets for June, 500 BBW#13 at 2370 (reduced about 45000 PSI) 460 BBW#13 NonCon at 2530 fps 55000 psi and 450 North Fork CPS at 2540 fps 48000 psi. I kept some velocity with the 460 and 450 as I want to study inflicted trauma and how buffalo react to that, and with NonCons, velocity rules, however still these are not at the top end. All these loads are very manageable in the field. When we drop to the 50 B&M and 458 B&M, with the AI stocks and weights coming in at 7.5-8 lbs, these rifles are very handy and manageable and are no issue at all. But, if we change out stocks to that little Winchester plastic Ultimate stock, and that weight drops to 6.5 lbs for these rifles, and we start shooting 450-500 gr bullets at 2100-2250 fps, these get a little hateful to handle, the main problem for me is the bolt handle busting my trigger finger with these stocks. Now, these rifles with this stock I consider Alaskan wet weather rifles--so 450s and 500s are not needed for that work, weight of bullets is dropped down, reducing recoil and making even these 6.5 lb rifles easy to manage. I don't know what a Doctari stock is, but I can tell you this, I want my stocks done just like the Winchester M70s current, and the AIs---straight in line with the bore-little or no damned drop to them. These handle like a dream, and muzzle rise is zero issue. Keeps you on target for followups. And there should always be followups! You could not GIVE me one of those Euro stocks that drop---not in my life would I have one of those. Not only for handling purposes, but ugly as hell! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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"I went to a lot of trouble to get the shape and feel of the Doctari's stock right. The process started off with a fitting at the renowned Holland and Holland Shooting School outside London. Then I tracked down an old Rigby stockmaker who happened to be in South Africa and I worked with him to get it right. I once followed a wounded buffalo for twenty miles through some of the nastiest and thickest cover available. This was when I discovered that you cannot carry a dangerous-game rifle at port arms, ready for action, for any great length of time before your arms get really tired. So you end up carrying the rifle held by the pistol grip and balancing it against your shoulder. This way it is easy to carry a rifle for a long time, but you have to have just the right angle at the pistol grip so that your wrist is not bent at an awkward angle. You will notice that the Doctari has a Prince of Wales-type semi-pistol grip for this reason. A dangerous-game rifle must, I believe, have the handling qualities of a Purdey, combined with the ballistic capabilities of a Howitzer. The secret to such a rifle lies in its fit, feel, and balance. It must have between-the-hands balance for a lively feel. I have been charged three times in my PHing career and believe me, there is no time to aim--you just point and shoot, like you would a shotgun at a flushing quail. So in other words, a dangerous-game rifle needs to have shotgun-type handling qualities and I think the Doctari has. Heck, I have even shot a clay out of the sky with my .505 Gibbs!" More on stock from Doctari. Need to see and try it, at least for feel. That I can arrange. Shoot it would be better. That I can't arrange. Looking at your bullet selection for your June trip and given some reasonable hunting opportunities, unless you delibertly mix the bullets, it doesn't look like you're going to get a chance to use the solids. I think that those noncoms are going to do the job every time! First shot kills record! | |||
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Well don't know about doc, but what I have works for me. Speaking of stocks, I finally got some photos from Corbin of my new Bastogne Blanks! Which he is suppose to deliver this weekend or next week some time, and then they will go to AI for making sawdust out of! What do you guys think???? I don't know, all looks like wood to me?    Right now I have decided to keep these. I might put one on a 50 B&M SS that I am very fond of. Not sure what I should do with the other 2???? I don't know if I am going to like my 475 B&M yet, so not sure if I want to build one in stainless and use one of these blanks? Maybe I have one done for a 500 MDM???? Maybe a 9.3 B&M???? Thoughts? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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http://kilimanjarorifles.com/rifles_now.html Look at "Kilimanjaro Doctari Professional Rifle No. 2 – 416 Rigby" There are about 10 photos. I think you'll approve of the design. Certainly the intent of having a rifle that will point and shoot is in keeping with the carbine approach. You'll not approve of the twist, it's 1:14 IBT  | |||
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Yes, I don't really have an issue with that stock. It appears rather straight in line with the bore, like the M70s I have. I like that checkering. Nice. I don't care for the rifle much. Looks like a damned musket of some sort. I will tell you something else I am glad to see--Some proper sights on a DGR! Get away from that old BS traditional flip up things. Good Ghost Ring rear, very nice. Accurate, very fast. I wish I could see better and could use those again! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The "Kilimanjaro Doctari Professional Rifle stock” looks to be a traditional British stalking rifle stock with the fore end lengthened to balance the barrel length and the comb line raised for scope rather than iron sight use. Make sure the LOP is 14 ¼”- 14 ½”, shorten the fore end a couple of inches, and install a 20” .500 caliber barrel in 500 MDM and it’ll handle just fine! Make it an intermediate length action, resize the fore end accordingly, and chamber in 50 B&M with 18”-19” barrel and it’ll handle even better. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Yup Except for the type of stock material (stealth laminate), bedding and whatever design magic there is in the stock, you've got a B&M rifle. I do like the stock design that permits the face to be placed the same whether you're using open sights or a scope. And the modified type of grip. Sort of like a chinese menue - one item from rifle a, one from b etc. I said once before that my ideal two gun battery for Africa would be the 9.3 B&M and the 50 B&M. Just messing with the stock, bedding and sights design.  | |||
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Well, sure enough a fellow could get by very easy with a 9.3 and a 50. Those two would do anything you ever needed to do in the field. Something I have never really gone into very much is the great advantages of carrying like rifles to remote areas around the world. As we know, if one has a break down of any sort, very little chance to repair things in the field. We all know I carry two scopes of course, in case one goes down, breaks, or fails. How about other issues? In my early hunting/shooting it was very normal to see me with a Win M70 458 Lott and a light rifle for other use. Many times that has been a favorite Win M70 358 STA. Guess what? Should something happen to your bolt, firing pin, extractor, anything in that bolt, that will fit in the other rifle. Both are the same. Now, while I surely would exchange bolts and make sure it fit, I never fired that combination either way. In fact never considered that much of an issue, and not sure if it is or not. Now, once a hunting buddies firing pin broke and locked up his rifle completely. It was over, and his rifle was totally out of commission until going back to the factory. This did happen in one of these remote areas and had he not had a backup rifle he would have been out of business, or would have had to use someone elses unfamiliar rifle, could have been a major disaster. This caused me to think even more about this sort of thing. I am no gunsmith, and my knowledge on many things is limited in these matters. I am told that putting one bolt in another rifle might not be a good thing sometimes. Headspace and such may be an issue, or trigger might not line up or safety, something like that. Maybe so, and I might be full of beans? But I have taken several bolts out of various B&M rifles, changed them around, and all have worked, fired, and done what I wanted. So...........????? Hopefully some of our more astute folks might point out any possible issues with this? I can tell you this, carrying two rifles such as the 50 B&M and the 9.3 B&M, both Win M70s, WSM actions, you have several options should something go wrong. You can carry only one extra scope and get by--just make sure you set up all your mounts correctly and the same on both rifles. Bolts will switch back and forth. All magazine parts, switch back and forth. Might even get by with switching stocks if you needed. While the 9.3 is slightly smaller contour than the 50, you can bet if something happened to the stock on one, I would be making a plan and get it to work! The barrel contours for 410, 416, 458, 475, 50 are all the exact same, stocks interchange freely between those, and I have done so many many times. Not a bad advantage to have in those far away, remote areas. Of course I am screwed on that advantage on my upcoming hunt as I am taking 500 MDM and 458 B&M, nothing will switch with those. But you can bet, I will be carrying some spare parts with me, Just In Case! One never knows when these things can cause some real issues. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Hey Guys, go to the Bastogne thread here; http://forums.accuratereloadin...881054451#6881054451 Give me a vote on this if you are lurking about. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Put the second one down, the dark one, on the 9.3. B&M. I like it best. Who knows some day it might come up for sale. The top one on the 500 MDM. That caliber doesn't interest me at all and I don't like light woods on a DG rifle. That leaves the bottom one for the the 475 B&M if it works out. If not, it's always nice to hae a quick response stock blank at the ready. | |||
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Thats how I voted on the other thread SSR | |||
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Now see Michael, if you would just learn to shoot a Blaser, you wouldn't have these problems Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave! Don't you know by now how hard it is to teach old dogs new tricks? Man, come now! I shot one of those blazer do-hicky bolt things one time! That is just strange doings to me! Reckon a fellow has to get used to those sort of things! You know years ago, when I was shooting so many handguns in the day. I liked to look at and handle new handguns when they hit the market. After some time spent with a bunch of wanna be handguns, that I could not half get my hands on, was much slower shooting them, and did not shoot them as well as my trusted old 1911s! Finally I decided I had to commit to one or the other and stop handling variety! So I went back to the 1911s, got rid of all those other odd things, and that's all I have today is a 1911 type handgun. Of course they are all 45 acp, with the exception of a set of Browning Hi Powers, old T-Series guns with matching blue slides/nickel frames, had about a million rounds shot thru the both of them! Feel great in the hand as well. These days I carry one of three Kimber Ultras in 45 ACP. All have mammoth ivory grips of course, all .250 thick in the middle to fit my hands! LOL..... Reckon a Winchester M70 is the same thing, I would hate like hell to start learning how to shoot something wild as a blazer!  Now speaking of rifles, got my thin forend XXEnglish back from Wes today, to fit on my 500 MDM! I am a happy boy, fits my left hand perfectly, feels great, makes one hell of a big difference!   Don't be looking at my rusty rear sight either! It looks worse in the photos than in real life, hell I can't even see it without my reading glasses! So don't look at that! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I may have to give one of those Winchesters a try. I always had a hankering for a Super Grade  Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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I don't know why sometimes we get so attached to some things? I am the worst in the world for that sort of thing. I suppose some of it has to do with the memory of adventures past with a particular firearm, rifle. While at one time I had some close ties with the Custom Shop in New Haven, I doubt Winchester now would have a clue as to who I am and my loyalty to a M70! But, none the less, I would not go to the field without the rifle saying Winchester on it somewhere. Maybe I am a little , well, eccentric sounds better! I can't even get interested in a cartridge if it won't work in a M70. All the B&Ms and MDM are built for M70s, a rifle in search of a cartridge, instead of the traditional "cartridge in search of a rifle". There are many fine rifles out there, no doubt, and some not so fine. Just make mine a Winchester M70, and I am good to go! LOL Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Amen Reverend  SSR | |||
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Michael: I don't have any attachment to any particular rifle. I usually do it the other way, find the cartridge I want to shoot and then buy the rifle that chambers it. I have had very good luck with all my Remingtons except for a 7 mm Ultra Mag that had a really light barrel. I just couldn't get it to shoot the way I wanted. Unlike some, I have had great luck with Rugers. Some of the Savage rifles I have had have been real tack drivers. I have not had a Winchester in awhile because some of the Winnys that I got from the New Haven plant were of very poor quality. I am sure that the South Carolina guns are much better. I would be interested in a Super Grade but can't decide on a caliber. Maybe I need a .338 Win Mag. We'll see. I have to tell you that I have really come to love my Blaser R93. It is the perfect gun for the traveling hunter. I have one with two barrels, a 9.3X62 and a 30-06. You take it down and the stock and receiver, both barrels and two scopes fit in a handy little carrying case. You don't have to mess with Blasers. They are very accurate and have great triggers right out of the box and, they have the best QR scope mounting system on the market, period, the end! Peter Paul Mauser made the greatest gun of the 19th century but IMHO, Blaser made the greatest gun of the 20th. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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