Been kinda quite here, have not heard more from CrossL, I imagine he is doing some serious celebrations the last few days! He has had quite a Successful First Safari! I hope he is shooting some more plains critters with the 458 Super Short! See what happens.


Busy buying stock rifles. Was very lucky today, I actually bought two Winchester M70 RUM guns! I now have a pretty fair stock of those, 8 total. Have 10 more various WSM and WSSM coming in.

We are looking forward to Brent coming in tomorrow afternoon! While it has been hectic here this week, we are doing some blasting the next couple of days. Brent is bringing a buddy, have been busy today loading some B&M ammo! I looked on the shelves yesterday and there was hardly nothing there for loaded B&M ammo! So I am going to be busy first thing in the morning getting more loaded. Seems I am trading some ammo and such, for some little quart jars full of good stuff!!!!

Might be looking like this by late Saturday


Michael

Dude i just picked up the goodies good stuff.mi have to say the aged rye might be the best whiskey i have ever tried. I hope it makes it to the box tomorrow morning, leaving early never know it might get forgotten in the rush to get out the door

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Dude i just picked up the goodies good stuff.mi have to say the aged rye might be the best whiskey i have ever tried. I hope it makes it to the box tomorrow morning, leaving early never know it might get forgotten in the rush to get out the door

Somehow, I know that you will not let me down! And that you will in fact show up with the goods!

If you know what is good for you that is!



Safe Travels, and we will be looking for you tomorrow afternoon!

Call if you get a chance during the day! Momma will have something for us to munch on tomorrow evening so no worries there.



Michael

Awaiting the latest developments at MIB: More and creativity gets better.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

Ron,
Would the Wiebe' Mauser follower for the 500 Jeffery work in the M77 standard length action? Might need to be slightly shortened to smoothly work in the magazine box but it definately ought to feed the B&M cartridges.

Jim,
Sorry that got overlooked.
The Wiebe bottom metal has been languishing with Rusty McGee for many moons, on an FN Mauser,
waiting first for one barrel, and then another,
Pac-Nor QC problem for a .375 barrel for 375/404 JS, so they did not send the barrel, and started over on another one.
So ofickle me decided to turn that Mauser into a 500 Mbogo Short.
That follower is for a 3.5" box and is wide enough that it will not slide up into the bottom opening of the FN M98 action yet.
Rusty is going to have to do some shaping to allow the follower to move on up to the bottom of the feed rails.
However, I also have a Ruger Hawkeye, with Rusty, that is about to become a 400 Whelen.
Next time I am over there I will try the Wiebe follower in the Hawkeye box, of the 416 Ruger,
but my guess is it will be too big to fit.

Hey Ron,

You've got some good things going for all of us. Thanks!

Wiebe 500 Jeffery follower...
I know the 500 Jeff follower will be to long - I just wasn't sure if the M77's wider magazine cavity width would better match the width of the follower. If so, the follower wouldn't require much fitting to work in the M77 - and it's configuration aught to stack and feed the shortened RUM and 338 LM/416 Rigby cased cartridges much better than the factory Ruger follower.

M98 Mauser magazine cavity...
Yep the magazine box cavity must be modified on the M98 Mauser action to fit a magazine designed for the 500 Jeffery - definitely a large diameter cartridge body - but that's just part of modifying the M98 cartridge specific... We both are just lucky that the commercial FN actions that we're using were only chambered in 270 Win or in 30-06 so we have pretty much blank slate rails, ramp, and magazine cavity for our gunsmiths to work with.

As an FYI...
The 49-10 feeds perfectly from a commercial FN M98 Mauser based rifle that Steve had worked the rails and ramp to perfectly consume commercial Norma' 404 Jeffery ammunition. this rifle had an unmodified Wiebe 4MJ 404 Jeffery bottom metal (this is the new standard depth 4-rounds down box) and the Wiebe 404 Jeffery follower. Nice thing about the 4MJ bottom metal is that while it is standard depth it held 3-down of my dummy 49-10 cartridges, and it had that slight amount of extra mag space for Steve to thumb down the 4th dummy into the magazine sufficiently to be picked up under the extractor; no need to thumb press the side of the extractor for the cartridge to ride up... Again just an FYI...

PAC-Nor barrels...
I definitely understand their delayed delivery of ordered barrels as both of my custom 9" twist barrels were delayed. That said, Pac-Nor was very upfront with me in emails and telephonically regarding the reasons for the delay. In fact they had the gentleman making the two rifling buttons and my two barrels give me a phone call to fully explain what had delayed my barrel delivery. And he even verbally reinforced their policy that he'd not release my barrels for shipment until each one 'fully passed' Pac-Nor's barrel quality inspection process. Personally I vote for highest quality even if it means delayed delivery!

Brent and Paul just left a short while ago! We did have some fun I have to tell you! Between sipping some shine, and doing some shooting, we came up with some great ideas to toy around with.

Brent and Paul are on Safari next year! Paul's very first. Paul needs a rifle, and has chosen to build a 18 inch 458 B&M, first big bore as well. He shot quite a bit yesterday and learned to handle the 458 B&M very very well.

We even managed to do some low velocity terminals with some 458s and got some surprises!

Both Brent and Paul have B&Ms getting ready to be started soon as I send the base rifles this week. As for Brents new rifle, its a novelty, and something he came up with. It involves a 458 B&M Super Short, but I am not ready to leak out details just yet! Suffice to say, it is going to be different!

We had a great time with the boys, and look very much forward to a return visit!

I think our Friend 450NE is up for a visit in the next few weeks as well!


CrossL
Glad to have you home safe! Fantastic first safari, buffalo, elephant, LION +++++! Incredible! And, we are happy to hear the 416 B&M did its job for you. I think some other firsts? Elephant 416 B&M--Thats a first! Performance of the 350 BBW#13 Solids incredible.

Look forward to you getting rested up a bit and telling us MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michael

Just back from another trip to the Dr and his lab. What another wonderful time. It is always a learning experience, it sure is great to have friends who are smarter than myself. My buddy Paul is brand new to the entire hunting world and Michael got him shooting a 458 b&m pretty darn good. We will work with him here throughout spring and summer getting him ready for buffalo in Zim next sept. we shot 50 9.3, and 458 B&M, 458 50 super shorts, and of course the best of them all, the 500MDM. I was planning on getting a 9.3 built up, but just can not pass up the super shorts. Every time i pick one u and handle it i just can not put it down. Plus with the "adjustment" Michael and i spoke about i believe it will have the distance the 9.3 has but still be a very viable back up rifle on a elephant and or buff hunt. We have already heard wht the super shorts did in Aus and now Cross testing in a elephant. Impressive. So a modified 458 super short is on its way Now the excruciating pain of the wait!

Michael, once again thank you for the hospitality and friendship, it is greatly appreciated. Paul talked bullets and rifles for nearly the entire 8 hour drive home.

quote:

Michael, once again thank you for the hospitality and friendship, it is greatly appreciated. Paul talked bullets and rifles for nearly the entire 8 hour drive home.

You might need to mention to Paul, that kind of talk will eventually get him in trouble at home! Should I go ahead and get him a t'Shirt done as well? You know the one, "If you can't talk about bullets, then you can't talk to me!"



No thanks needed, we had a blast as well! I thank you guys for adding to my collection, in the bar. Just one problem with that, there are a couple of those that are not going to last very long!


Glad you guys made it home safe!

Michael

Some thoughts that don't fit anywhere else-

The B&M concept went over big-

Every one was impressed with both rifles, and there are 4 PHs that want a SS either 458 or 50. they love the very short light concept for a PHs everyday back-up gun that will be used at short range gunfights and carried a lot. If we ever get proper Headstamped brass for them for the RSA the I believe some-one will move a bunch of rifles over there.

The new B&M cartridge slide worked wonderfully-several comments on the quality of workmanship and inquiries as to where to get one.

Used Trijicon 1.25x4 scopes with the green post on both rifles. I loved the reticle and scope-however I have an issue with one of them--it has lost focus and can't be brought back-I found one setting-@2.5power - worked but back it goes to be fixed.

SAPS in and out was a breeze-
Zim border the ultimate FUBAR-border police were asking for meat instead of money for bribes-

Flew out of Austin-CBP was a breeze
on return in Atlanta-polite and fairly efficient-even if it took 6 armed officers to check a serial number

and finally a huge thanks to all my friends here who shared their experience with me-with the good advice my trip was as smooth as glass.

The 50 B&M Super Short has drawn first blood.

Sorry for the poor quality pictures, I'am very hard on digital cameras and broke the screen on two so far this season. So the pictures were taken with my phone.

I used CEB 345 gr. bullets, the shot was 60 yards broadside. It hit 2" above the elbow in leg muscle expanding and loosing the pedals then entered the chest cavity. Putting a large cut in the heart, making lung jello, exiting the far side with 3 pedals, 3 pedals were recovered in the breast bone.

The 315 lb. field dressed boar made it about 30 yard before giving up his ghost.



FROM THE CENTER TO THE PEDAL HOLES IS 5"






I'am very pleased on the performance of the 50 B&M SS and CEB bullet combination.

Awesome report!
No way he could have run off and been a danger. These bullets are so destructive it saves you having to put your life at risk chasing an animal in the thick stuff.

Great report. Looks like those petals were moving away from the wound channel. Humm some say that can't happen! Shot actually looks a little low but you got your bear and didn't have to follow it very far. Looks like it was a quartering shot so it worked well. Great performance of bullet.

Sam

Ok Brent... You need to 'spill the beans' on your 458 Super Short project!

The peanut gallery is full of inquiring minds!!!!

Coyote!

HOLY COW!!!!!!!



Excellent report! Well, I suppose the little 50 is making a pretty damned good bear rifle according to this! Pretty good do everything sort of rifle I reckon!

I am amazed that some of the blades exited a bear! And of course, 5 inches from Center! Which is what they do, time after time, after time! They do not stay in the wound channel, as some have said!

Great job, it pleases me greatly to hear of this success!

Michael

Cap, i believe we will have to wait just a bit and see how and if things work out before we spill the beans. The lab Dr can of course pipe in and tell everybody anytime he wants, he is the project master on this. We think we can get a little more performance out of the 458.
Time will tell, if not still fun to give it a run.

Cross sent his photos, and he is having some issues with his photobucket, so asked me to post a few for him here.

First we will look at a few plains game from his recent safari.

Cross is pulling this ones ear off for some reason!







A shameless display of the 416 B&M! LOL.....

Sean has an incredible set of photos, especially for his first safari! Holy Cow, for the life of me I can't figure how he could pass these up without shooting? I would have had to be restrained somehow!



Now, with these below, I am not sure I like my buddy Sean anymore!!!!! GDamed spotted SOB!!!!!!
I would have shot this bastard to pieces standing there like that looking at me! I HATE Leopards!

Just an incredible first safari! I don't know how you are ever going to top this one!














And yet another "Shameless Display" of the 416 B&M! HEH......




Great job Sean!

Michael

I can't express how much satisfaction it gives me to see the B&Ms doing what they are supposed to do in the field, what they were designed to do. It was gratifying to me for my use in the field.

But, it gives me far more satisfaction to see others in the field getting use out of the B&M System. I really don't even know how to explain the feeling of seeing you guys out in the field, being successful, with something that I contributed to. Its beyond the words I have.

Thanks
Michael

Thanks!!!! Michael Sam and boom stick

Cross.... HOLY COW!!!!

Going on your first safari and accomplishing what you have to say the least is amazing.

Michael

Thanks very much for posting those for me.

Yeah It was a dream trip-in the bush hunting for 22 days. first animal down 2 hrs after we got to camp.

I had all the confidence in the world in both my rifles and my loads, so that was one issue off my mind. All I had to do was my job. some times that was tough.

Just fantastic.

I love the 416 B&M and the 50 B&M cartridges in their relating M70 rifles - with these two a guy could hunt the world with no issue! That 458 B&M SS is a cute and very deadly round with proper bullets... Concept and delivery of compact rounds in compact rifles extremely well done Michael!

Bullets oh yeah...
Michael, Sam, and Dan - thanks for bringing the BBW#13 bullets commercially to us!
Michael and John - thanks for the latest model CPS and FPS bullets!
Dan - thanks for your willingness to work with us individually...your design for the 430gr .500 MTH bullets give great performance in Michael's bullet box and Ron has demonstrated their great accuracy at 300yds - awesome for a true 50 caliber BB!
Boomy and Dan - great idea that has lead to the extremely versatile RSP Raptor bullets.

SSR - Wonderful photos and thanks for sharing your memories from a fantastic hunt trip.

Cross WOW! You have done it all in one trip. Great photos and NICE elephant! What was the weight of tusks?

Sam

Sean-

Terrific trophies for any safari, but incredible bag for ones first safari! Well done, again! BTW, that Croc looks to me to be an old boy, well worth considering.

I did note that I cannot see your B&M cartridge slide in any of the pics, although I know you used it???

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Sean-

Terrific trophies for any safari, but incredible bag for ones first safari! Well done, again! BTW, that Croc looks to me to be an old boy, well worth considering.

I did note that I cannot see your B&M cartridge slide in any of the pics, although I know you used it???

Mike

Actually I was wearing it in every picture---its just that my belly was hiding it----

sorry but true--i loved it and it worked perfectly-even had one session of fast reloads-----

we do need to do one for the Super shorts

CROSS L,what scope is that on the 416B&M,what was your load. I may not have seen what you may have already stated,sorry if repeating and the bullet you used,Kev

CROSS,I see now what scope you used,just would like to know if you took all game with the 416B&M or other B&M round?

Kev5000

I used the B&M 458 SS for the Lion-295gr BBW#13 Non-Con @ 2560 fps with a Trijicon 1.25x4 scope with green triangle reticle in Leopold QRW mounts

Everything else fell to the 416 B&M-I used:

325 gr BBW#13 Non-con @2500 fps
350 gr BBW#13 @2450 fps
( All load data from B&M website and checked on Oehler 35P Chrono)

Same scope and mounting system and AI stock

Cartridge slide-10 round made for B&M cartridges by a source found by Lionhunter

The only other thing was the B&M SS 458 BBW #13 solid 320 gr TEST FIRED-for forensic curiosity- through elle skull and found in ribs, one other shot lost in body cavity.

Than I am thinking the 416B&M is a do everything round,good enough out to 300 or 350 and puts big things down,may have to be my next B&M,Kev

kev5000

I REALLY like my 416 B&M. it will also run a 300 gr Barnes tsx over 2650 for a straight Plains game load.

I bought it as an all around rifle and it sure is proving itself to be one.

Good luck to you-Michael is really fun to work with.

quote:

Originally posted by kev5000:
Than I am thinking the 416B&M is a do everything round,good enough out to 300 or 350 and puts big things down,may have to be my next B&M,Kev

Kev,

I shot one of Michael's 416 B&Ms in Oregon back in 2010. One area we shot in was across canyon @ 325yds - the 416 B&M was very accurate with 300gr TSX and 350gr TSX bullets - all shots were fired unsupported offhand and landed in less than 8" at the same target, could have been much smaller were I a better shot...

Pretty much just because of my inexperience with 416 I just have not placed as much emphasis on it as maybe some of the other B&Ms. With seeing Cross's success with it, well, that says it all I think. It does not come up short in any way. And does have some serious advantages to it.

In 20 inches it is able to get a 300 Barnes to 2650 fps and the 300 Raptor to 2625 fps. I have a new flat base, bands forward, 300 #13 coming, that should do very well too with added Talon Tip, and work in the magazine. This will handle many situations and be rather versatile.

In addition to the 350/325 #13 Combo, this rifle/Cartridge does very very good with the 400 BBW#13 Solids, even with it's 1:14 twist rate. Safely taking it to 2325 fps. Not far off the bigger cases, and of course, bigger guns!

416 B&M is earning a bit of respect from me.

Hey, question???? Who is going to DSC this year? I hope many many of you guys are going to pitch up and visit with us! B&M is going to be there, big time this year! Booth #C-570! We are there with CEB, David Keith, and Paul Truccolo. They put us in the back, assuming we were going to be trouble I reckon! LOL....... They might be correct! HEH HEH.......... We have a good crowd already, and plan to sit around, drink plenty of beer, and tell lot's of lies! We are going to have a good time for sure. Plenty of rifle talk, bullet speak, and cartridge BS going on rest assured. Momma has been instrumental in getting our booth set up and together, I tell you, she has put the hours in getting things ready this year. Our first year ever exhibiting anything, anywhere, and I think we are going to have a pretty good showing. We will be bringing lot's of rifles to play with and look at, cartridges, dummies of course, to gander at, will have some shirts looks like, t'shirts, and leather goods and all sorts of things. Don't have to do anything as we don't give damn if we sell anything or not, good thing about not being a business, like it or not, don't care. LOL....... Its sit around and BS time about what is good, what is not so good and so forth and so on! So make a plan to visit this year, you will be surprised at how friendly folks are, and what a good AR crowd we have there, makes the visit well worth the effort I promise. It it was not, I would not go and that is a fact.

Michael

Question for Michael and the rest of you folks.

I have a 50 B&M and love it. Want to get a 500 MDM, well, just 'cause. M70 Ultramags are hard to find and pricey. Would a Ruger 375 Alaskan be suitable to build a 500MDM on? The Houge stock with the aluminum insert looks like it would handle the recoil, just need to enlarge the barrel channel. The magazine looks like it would work with minimal rail work.

Thank you Michael for all of your work and your mentoring and handholding when I built my 50 B&M.

Thanks all for your input on this.

The standard length 3.4" magazine length M77 is not a good choice for the 500 MDM - for this cartridge you truly need a 3.5" minimum internal length magazine which is not a factory standard, plus the slightly longer 3.6" magazine length is very beneficial relative to bullet choices...

That said, there has been discussion here on the AR forums a few years ago on how to safely alter the standard length M77 to accommodate the full length .375 H&H cartridge which does require a 3.6" magazine length. So yes you can use the M77 Hawkeye rifle as the basis of a 500 MDM BUT ONLY if you are willing to go through the additional expense of having the action modified to accomodate a 3.5" minimum to 3.6" maximum internal magazine length...

Head Trauma!

Well, damned pleased you like your 50 B&M. I like mine too! Hammer of a rifle in a nice handy package!

No, I don't think a 500 MDM on a Ruger Alaskan will work proper, as Capo stated, anything might be able to be done, but more involved and more work than worth the trouble. I can just about promise you that it will cost more extra labor and work than you would save if you found a Win M70 in RUM and paid more for to begin with. And, then no promise or guarantee that it would work. Too much to be done, first, magazine won't hold but two down with RUM cases. Alasken-Oz built a 50 B&M on a Ruger Alaskan, holds two down max. Which is not all that big a deal, and it works great with the 50 B&M, can use all the BBW#13s with tips added, in the magazine, got me to thinking about other things. But not a 500 MDM.

Now, I don't want to talk you out of building a rifle, and 500 MDM is a good thing, other than I have had so many issues with Quality and Horneber with brass, but that is not really the cartridge or rifles fault I suppose. I have worked with about 7-8 rifles in 500 MDM, and they really have no problems or issues at all. Two of them are in the hands of PHs right now, Paul in Australia, Andrew in Africa. But really and truly the 500 MDM is not going to do much more for you than your 50 B&M, it will be a little bigger as well. With some of the bullets we have now, your 50 B&M does not come up short on anything. And in particular by bullet choice it is going to get even better. We have that wonderful North Fork Copper 450 gr Solid, I now received a new 450 gr BBW#13 Solid, and I lengthened the Nose Projection out on it. 2250-2300 fps with this, and it will give you all the penetration in the world you would ever want or need and then some on top of that. I am hoping these will match up pretty close with the 450 BBW#13 NonCon, the new wide cavity bullet that replaced the older 460 #13 NonCon. With a 50 B&M in hand, I just don't see you making that much of an improvement of what you have by going to a 500 MDM.

But, one does not always have to justify anything when it comes to rifles/cartridges! Me of all people should not talk, I have 3-4 500 MDMs around here, I have I don't know how many 50s, 458s, 416s and so forth. Have only 1 9.3, and no 375 B&M, if that tells you my preferences! LOL........ Should you decide you in fact have to have a 500 MDM, I have 8 spare rifles right now, Win M70 RUM guns.

Hey, No Thanks needed, but I do appreciate it!

Also, how is the 50 shooting for you? Shoot anything with it yet?

Michael

Maybe the 2.5" .500" version on the Ruger.

I guess the issue is what is the magazine length of the Ruger 375 Alaskan? OAL for the 375 Ruger is 3.34" and the Ultramag is 3.60", getting pretty close. Does anyone out there have a 375 Ruger Alaskan that they can measure the magazine length?

Michael, what is the magazine length necessary for the 500 MDM?

Looks like you are right, the Ruger is a non-starter.

I agree with you that the 500 MDM is past the point of diminishing maginal returns with regard to preformance when compared to the 50 B&M. It is apparent, however, that logic has failed to deter many of us

To answer your question, the 50 B&M shoots very well. Not fussy to load, not abusive at all to shoot the range. Gets a lot of attention from the Orange Horde crowd.

Have not slain any critters with it (yet).

Thanks all for your input.

quote:

Originally posted by Head Trauma:
... Does anyone out there have a 375 Ruger Alaskan that they can measure the magazine length?

Russ,
3.425" inside box length for that Hawkeye.

Last time we discussed this, IIRC, I left dangling a question from Jim about whether the Wiebe 500 Jeffery follower would fit into the Hawkeye box,
hoping for a different contour of the follower that would work better with a 50 B&M,
and maybe even allow that third cartridge to be squeezed in and the bolt closed over it.

Well, I finally tried it.
While the Wiebe 500 Jeffery follower is not too long for the Hawkeye box, it is too wide at the back to even go into the box.
The front half of the follower will go inside the Hawkeye box, but not the back half.
So there, FWIW: Not much.