CrossL

Hey Buddy--It's damn good to hear from you! I have been wondering about how you were doing over there!

A lot of firsts here. We had the 416 B&M out a few years ago, couple of times. Then we did not have the BBW#13s. Matt and Mark used it for Kudu, oryx, and something else, 350 Barnes TSX. Great results. I used the 416 B&M with a 350 Swift for a Cow buffalo in 2007, good results.

But, Your Bull Buff is 1st one with 416 B&M and BBW#13s. Sounds like the 325#13 HP did a number, complete penetration, with lungs poking through far side! 350 #13 Solid took a beating on all that bone, but did the job. Don't loose that bullet, we want to see!

First Elephant ever with 416 B&M! Want to see that one bullet you recovered as well! WOW.....

The Test with the 458 B&M Super Short on the elephant is incredible! Frontal? Good Lord! Would never have guessed that, but we were getting 50+ inches here. 6 ft would fall dead on my formula of 30%-35% more penetration in animal tissue than in the test work! In Fact, at 30% more, it's dead on the money. Correlation between test work and field work! Corbin asked me when we handled the 1st 458 BM SS "Could you take Elephant With This?" I had to think about this for a moment, and my answer was this "Elephant have been taken with a hell of a lot less!"

I concur, obviously you have the right bullet and penetration most certainly is there, but if I had the choice I would opt for the bigger B&Ms! 458 or 50, or nothing wrong it seems with the 416 B&M either! LOL.........

This is also the first 458 B&M Super Short to be carried in the field! Lion! Yes, 295 BBW#13 NonCon at damned near 2600 fps in your rifle, lion will be turned inside out and then some!

The Super Shorts may be just about the perfect Kitty Guns, consider the size, handling abilities, quick and fast on target, and loaded with BBW#13 NoNCons--deadly deadly deadly combination!

I suppose there is a chance we may find out just how deadly! We wish you the best, and can't wait for more details, and your opinions and thoughts on all these matters!

Huge Congratulations! I am very pleased and excited with what I am hearing thus far!

Another big First--This is CrossL First Safari! Sounds like it's been one hell of a good time, I hope so!

Michael

Excellent!
More pics of recovered bullets and animal necropsy photos too, no doubt, for the "Terminals" thread.
Congrats, CrossL.

Hey Sean,

Good to hear of your success on the first safari and that the B&Ms with the BBW#13s are working as well for you as they have for the rest of us. Hope you're also pleased with the B&M cartridge slide; I know you did a lot of practice with it before you departed.

Best of luck on the Lion, and keep us in the loop.

Cheers,

Zebra today for bait-

416 320 NC- point of shoulder-

exited mid -ribs far side

wrecked heart, lungs stomach-at least gallon of blood in thoracic cavity.

Mike--slide working great---reloads slick

must make a plan for Super Short slide----

the PHs hear look at it and dont believe me--then they see the results------

already have bullet orders--

quote:

the PHs hear look at it and dont believe me--then they see the results------

already have bullet orders-- dancing

No Man--You must tell them its the "Magic In the B&M" that does it!

quote:

Zebra today for bait-
416 320 NC- point of shoulder-
exited mid -ribs far side
wrecked heart, lungs stomach-at least gallon of blood in thoracic cavity.

How far did he go? Reaction when taking the hit? One thing about all these NonCon hits I have witnessed is the "Amount Of Blood" loss! It's far more than I have ever seen in the past with anything. The first few times I was not sure, but now its in every case I have witnessed, just massive blood flow.

quote:

Mike--slide working great---reloads slick

must make a plan for Super Short slide---- tu2

HEH..... Yes, but I did this on one of mine, I took a 200 gr flat nose fmj 45 acp and dropped in the bottom of each cartridge holder, and the Super Shorts stood taller and worked like a champ!

Michael

Hey everyone here who like guns and hunting,I just have to say something about Michael458 if this sounds like sucking up maybe, but it is the truth.He knew nothing about me and completely helped me out sold me a rifle at a great price and did not worry a bit about me fulling in my part to send him a check.He returned my E-mails right away and informed me about all the details with my rifle, it is going to be done in a 375 B&M.So for anyone who may want a B&M I can tell you he is helping you and I out with this so listen to him, he is the real deal,this man does not BS,Kev

Kev

Flattery will get you a long way! LOL.........

No man, no worries! Thanks for the words! But is always my pleasure if I can help, and I want to see everyone with a B&M have the same good experience I have had.

Rifle has left and on its way. If it was any of the B&Ms other than 375 I could help you more, but I think that John has enough loads in 375 that we can sort through it with some new ones. I sent John some 375 #13s, but don't think I have heard back since he worked with them? Have to check on that. But figure that we can also correlate enough data from the 9.3 to get us working with the 375.

Once I get the rifle back, if you don't mind, I am going to put a few rounds through it to make sure all is well before sending it to you. Might even work up a few loads for you if you want.

Michael

A local buddy of mine has two 50 B&M Super Shorts, 1 is a regular Winchester M70 and he also has a Ruger #1 as well. He shoots it often, mostly lighter or mid range loads. Shoots a few deer once and awhile as well. He shot a couple of deer I suppose over the weekend, here is what he said;

David
I’ve dumped a buck and a doe with the Model 70 Super Short .50.

Michael
What Bullet with the deer? How did they react? How far did they go?

David
300 Hornady FTX @ 2,000 fps. The buck was facing mostly away, looking at me over his left shoulder but I could see the shoulder crease past the ham. Clipped the shoulder blade going in and the bullet blew away about five pounds of meat. Dropped in his tracks.

The doe was a heart shot with very little meat damage. Went ten yards and collapsed at the edge of the concrete in the driveway. Very convenient. Easy to pick up, easy to hose off and she didn’t bleed and urinate all over the bait.

Neither bullet recovered. Great deer load.

HEH....

Just FYI

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Thanks Ulrik, yeah, next time I pass through Denmark, I will do my best to have some sort of toothache!

HEH HEH...........

I don't think there is a shortcut to Australia at all! Not looking forward to that one, makes going to South Africa look real easy!

Cappy, RIP, Boomy, and Cross-- Trouble! Problem Children at it's best, or worst, whichever way you chose to look at it! LOL.............

Well, rifles packed, ammo loaded, packed, belts, slings, cartridge slides, sat phone, cameras, paperwork, everything except the kitchen sink is packed and ready to go. Oh, wait, I still don't have any clothing packed? Hmmmmmmm, lets see, this black lacey.......... NO NO NO, wrong trip! HEH......

Got some news from Henry last night--He got two embossing plates done for the B&M leather goods! They did a great job as far as I am concerned and this will look great on the slings, belts, cartridge slides and anything else we can think of in leather!

I am very pleased with this.









Michael

Waiting on a hunting stand for 6 to 7 hours gives a person time to think.

I picked this up at the SHOT Show a number of years ago. I liked it because, I only put one key on it and label it for ATV, motorcycle, car, truck, snowmobile, tractor ect. And I don't loose keys as much any more, because you can snap it on your belt while in the field.



Could be a project for Henry's scraps.

Coyote

I sent this info and photo over to Henry just a bit ago for him to look at. Actually I think its a super idea, especially a way to use up smaller scraps like you say!

Maybe we will have some at DSC????

I know we will have the rifle slings, and the cartridge slides. Henry is working on those now, and first shipment coming in Mid October. Then he is working on more for DSC and if all goes well I will be keeping him on these projects.

I have a "Top Secret" project that I have Henry looking at that WILL BLOW all ya'lls mind, if Henry can do it. Sent him details and photos today. This is something Sam Rose come up with, but he and we have not been able to get anyone at all to work on it for over a year. It is something GREAT for Shooters of Big Bore Rifles! BUT I CANNOT TELL YOU ANYTHING ELSE. And I won't, Not until we have it in hand, and it works, and Sam and I can provide them for you. You will just have to wait on this one and wonder!

T'Shirts are in. More 5.11s being embroidered now as well, I think about 30 5.11s. Waiting for larger order to come in as well???? Backordered. Tag supposed to have gotten prices to us, but don't have them yet???

Michael

Michael,please shoot some 375's through my rifle found out some more data on it,I hope to get a 270 grain around 2700-2750 fps.Hey you said you had great performance with the 416 B&M with the 350 TSX,looking to see pics sounds great was it a 18 or 20 inch barrel?

Will the Ruger Compact Magnum (RCM series) work for the .50 SS? Base and Rim dimensions seems very close.

Kurt,

If you're asking about using the RCM brass to form 50 B&M SS brass - absolutely no... You're looking at +0.020" difference in the case body' head diameter of the two cases.

If you're asking if a Ruger M77 chambered for an RCM could be rebarreled to 50 B&N SS - absolutely yes... Though the better choice would be to rebarrel to the 50 B&M SA cartridge.

I am asking about the M77 Hawkeye RCM receiver.

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
I am asking about the M77 Hawkeye RCM receiver.

Absolutely it will work. Prior to the Ruger/Hornady release of the RCM cartridges the M77 was factory chambered for multiple of the RSAUM and WSM cartridges. And I believe that Ruger used the RSAUM magazine box for the RCM cartridges rather than produce a new box.

As an FYI, the 458 & 50 B&M SA cartridges are basically the 300 RSAUM neck expanded to .458 and .500 caliber. Unfortunately the factory RSAUM case necks are to thin to survive the necking up process and is the reason that Michael uses the full length RUM cases to produce his B&M and B&M SA cases - he has a full explanation on his website of his process...

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
I am asking about the M77 Hawkeye RCM receiver.

Yes, we already have a rifle done on the Hawkeye. You can see it on the 50 B&M Page. Actually rather neat, as the magazine is longer than the WSM magazines, therefore one can load any of the B&Ms for this rifle, and insert the tips and use all the BBW#13s in the magazine, With Talon Tips! This is like getting a 150 fps BOOST at 50 yard impacts with BBW#13 NonCons.

Based on this concept I am looking at putting a 2.5 inch .500 case on a WIn M70 long action done in 300RUM. This 2.5 inch .500 I think will be even better than the 500 MDM accounting for being able to do the same thing as the Hawkeye with the 2.240 inch B&M cases.

Problem with the Hawkeye is that only 2 B&M cases will go down in the magazine. Seems to always be a damned compromise of some sorts eh?

I believe I could still work with that however.

Michael

Based on this concept I am looking at putting a 2.5 inch .500 case on a WIn M70 long action done in 300RUM. This 2.5 inch .500 I think will be even better than the 500 MDM accounting for being able to do the same thing as the Hawkeye with the 2.240 inch B&M cases.

What, my new rifle has already been bettered! Say it isn't so.!

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Based on this concept I am looking at putting a 2.5 inch .500 case on a WIn M70 long action done in 300RUM. This 2.5 inch .500 I think will be even better than the 500 MDM accounting for being able to do the same thing as the Hawkeye with the 2.240 inch B&M cases.

What, my new rifle has already been bettered! Say it isn't so.!

We at B&M are like the computer industry! Obsolete even before it gets to Market!

LOL..........

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
I am asking about the M77 Hawkeye RCM receiver.

Yes, we already have a rifle done on the Hawkeye. You can see it on the 50 B&M Page. Actually rather neat, as the magazine is longer than the WSM magazines, therefore one can load any of the B&Ms for this rifle, and insert the tips and use all the BBW#13s in the magazine, With Talon Tips! This is like getting a 150 fps BOOST at 50 yard impacts with BBW#13 NonCons.

Based on this concept I am looking at putting a 2.5 inch .500 case on a WIn M70 long action done in 300RUM. This 2.5 inch .500 I think will be even better than the 500 MDM accounting for being able to do the same thing as the Hawkeye with the 2.240 inch B&M cases.

Problem with the Hawkeye is that only 2 B&M cases will go down in the magazine. Seems to always be a damned compromise of some sorts eh?

I believe I could still work with that however.

Michael

The M77 Hawkeye RCM receiver is Ruger's Short Action receiver (comparible to the Remington SA receiver/magazine length) so it's an optimum receiver/magazine length for 2.0" case length of the 50 B&M SA cartridge.

The standard M77 Hawkeye has the 3.4" magazine length which is perfect for the new 500 B&M with its 2.5" case length.

Edit Added. My two Ruger M77 SS SA synthetic stocked rifles factory chambered in 300 RSAUM hold 3-down in the magazine with sufficient magazine space to thumb feed a 4th round to properly catch under the CRF bolt...4-total cartridges...

Now to further expand on the M77 Hawkeye with its 3.4" magazine length...

I figure this action is optimum for the 2.5" case length 500 B&M for solids and NonCons w/o the Talon Tips. Want to use the Ogive Talon Tips, then trim the case length back to the 2.24" length of the 50 B&M (or perhaps slightly longer) and you're good to go with the Talon Tipped NonCons! Would be sort of the same concept of shooting 458 WinMags in a 458 Lott chambered rifle. Just have to assure the 2.5" 500 B&M isn't overboard in the PS-Freebore and it should work very nicely!

And looking at the smooth surface length of the .500 caliber NonCons, one could very likely use the Round Talon Tips with the 2.5" case for <175yd work and fairly closely match the trajectory to the FN Solid while maintaining the optimized NonCon Talon Tipped performance!

Yep, definately sounds like a good idea to me!

quote:

Problem with the Hawkeye is that only 2 B&M cases will go down in the magazine. Seems to always be a damned compromise of some sorts eh?

quote:

Edit Added. My two Ruger M77 SS SA synthetic stocked rifles factory chambered in 300 RSAUM hold 3-down in the magazine with sufficient magazine space to thumb feed a 4th round to properly catch under the CRF bolt...4-total cartridges...

So will the Hawkeye fit more than 2 50 B&M SS in the magazine?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt C.:

quote:

Problem with the Hawkeye is that only 2 B&M cases will go down in the magazine. Seems to always be a damned compromise of some sorts eh?

quote:

Edit Added. My two Ruger M77 SS SA synthetic stocked rifles factory chambered in 300 RSAUM hold 3-down in the magazine with sufficient magazine space to thumb feed a 4th round to properly catch under the CRF bolt...4-total cartridges...

So will the Hawkeye fit more than 2 50 B&M SS in the magazine?

Matt,

I don't have 3-each of dummy rounds for the 50 B&M SS or the 50 B&M - only one dummy round each - and I don't have any dummy rounds for the 50 B&M SA... So I have no way of seeing if 3 rounds of any of the B&Ms would fit within my M77 MkII SA 300 RSAUM magazine.

What I can tell you is that Ruger manufactured different magazine boxes for the 300 RSAUM and the 300 WSM cartridges so they may, or may not. have used a different magazine box for the 300/338 RCM rounds... If they did it may only take ordering the RSAUM or the WSM box for your M77 Hawkeye RCM action and you'd have 3-down in the magazine.

Michael said only 2-down of the 50 B&Ms in the M77 Hawkeye (3.4" magazine) but I don't know what the Hawkeye was originally chambered in so I can't say if the magazine box for the 375/416 Ruger would give 3-down with the 50 B&M or not. Unfortunately I don't own a standard length M77 so can't check the box measurements for you.

Jim et al,
Using .458 B&M dummies, I can get 3 down in the box of the Hawkeye that was factory made for the .416 Ruger.

However it is so tight that you cannot close the bolt without chambering that first round off the top, and it does do that well as CRF,
no need to stop at two in box and third round directly into chamber.

You cannot close the bolt with 3 rounds of .458 B&M in box,
but it is not far from that capability, 0.1" deeper would be enough.
50 B&M could only be tighter still.

I do like the idea of the 3.425" box length of the Ruger Hawkeye with the B&M line of cartridges,
especially for the Talon Tip-ed ESP Raptor bullets, or whaling harpoons,
which might otherwise be limited to "controlled round finger-feeding" (CRFF) singly into the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim et al,
Using .458 B&M dummies, I can get 3 down in the box of the Hawkeye that was factory made for the .416 Ruger.

However it is so tight that you cannot close the bolt without chambering that first round off the top, and it does do that well as CRF,
no need to stop at two in box and third round directly into chamber.

You cannot close the bolt with 3 rounds of .458 B&M in box,
but it is not far from that capability, 0.1" deeper would be enough.
50 B&M could only be tighter still.

I do like the idea of the 3.425" box length of the Ruger Hawkeye with the B&M line of cartridges.

With the bolt closed, can you put three in the box from the bottom and still be able to close the floorplate?

I am sorry guys, I am not so familiar with the Ruger actions.

The Hawkeye that Alaskan-Oz has was a 416 Ruger--so based on that action, only two B&Ms down.

I am not sure of the others? Jim has one, but I am betting two down, but that is a guess on my part.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:

With the bolt closed, can you put three in the box from the bottom and still be able to close the floorplate?

NO you cannot.
Only with the bolt open can you close the floorplate on three .458 B&M cartridges in the .416 Ruger Hawkeye box.
Like I said, you need another .1" of depth of stack to be able to close the bolt on three cartridges.
Close, but no cigar.
It seems that the back end of the box is where it is tight,
so windowing the box probably would not help.
Need some extra width and or depth of box to lower the stack about 0.1"
to allow bolt to close and floorplate to shut with three in box.

If you beat it shut now, with three in box, bend/squash/deform something (rifle or brass),
then you will have to beat the bolt open with a hammer.
Two in box and one in chamber is the B&M limit of the Ruger Hawkeye straight from the factory.
Cool enough, trade-off for the extra box length.
Could be even cooler with wider/deeper box.

Well I guess I'm looking for a Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt C.:
Well I guess I'm looking for a Winchester.

Not a bad choice! LOL........ If you need help with anything at all, I am here for you!

We can sort it out!

Michael

Hey Ron,
Lucky I waited as you answered my question – 458 B&Ms are pinching at the back of the box.

Matt,
Any decent gunsmith should be able to widen the factory magazine box, front and rear, so that 3 of the B&M cartridges can properly stack within the magazine box and close the bolt above.

The Ruger CRF is factory designed to slip over the rim of a cartridge dropped into the chamber so modifying the magazine box should give you 1+3 for 4 cartridges total...

Post edited.

Ruger followers are cartridge specific. If the RCM is different from the RSUM, then it is just a matter of swapping them out.

If they are the same, relieveing the underside might be a quick fix.

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
Ruger followers are cartridge specific. If the RCM is different from the RSUM, then it is just a matter of swapping them out.

If they are the same, relieveing the underside might be a quick fix.

Yes,
A reshaped follower, contoured to cartridge, thinned somewhere (follower spring is as flat as possible already, when compressed), might be all that is needed.
It seems to feed B&M very well.
Even the rim sticks up well for CRF.
I don't sweat "Mauser-Cosine Perfection" on box dimensions anymore.

quote:

Matt,
Any decent gunsmith should be able to widen the factory magazine box, front and rear, so that 3 of the B&M cartridges can properly stack within the magazine box and close the bolt above.

quote:

Not a bad choice! LOL........ If you need help with anything at all, I am here for you!

We can sort it out!

Thank you both!

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
Ruger followers are cartridge specific. If the RCM is different from the RSUM, then it is just a matter of swapping them out.

If they are the same, relieveing the underside might be a quick fix.

Kurt,

If the M77 Hawkeye Compact's follower is cartridge specific then I'd swap both the follower and magazine box for the MKII 300 RSAUM follower and magazine box as both are shaped properly for the B&M SA cartridges; they'd work for the B&M SS cartridges as well. I do know that Ruger had specific magazine boxes for the 300 RSAUM and the 300 WSM cartridges.

KurtC,
Jim's advice is worth a try.
I do not think the Hawkeye follower can be thinned any on the bottom, it is pretty thin there already,
and as I added above, the compressed spring is flat as possible already, no humps.
Maybe grinding down the hump on the long follower would work.
Short RSAUM/WSM follower in a +3.4" box?
Or ground-down intermediate length follower in an intermediate length box?
I don't know which would work best, but I do know which would be easiest to try first.

... Or put a 0.1" thick washer on each of the three action screws on bottom of stock
(to move the bottom metal 0.1" proud of stock) and see if the sheetmetal box rattles then.

The washer spacers or properly cut pillars would resolve the 0.100" additional magazine depth need. And if using a synthetic stock basically one layer of mat and glass properly laid along the bottom of the stock in the bottom metal area, a little shaping and some paint and the 'proud set' of the bottom metal would be eliminated.

The problem with the M77 standard length action, unlike the M77 short action, is that they were never factory chambered for a cartridge having the case body diameters of the RUM, RSAUM, or WSM cartridges in it so Ruger never made a magazine box sufficiently wide to stack 3-down. The options to eliminate this problem for 3-down in the magazine are 1) a custom properly dimensioned magazine box, 2) have the factory magazine box widened front and rear, or 3) a custom slightly-deeper floor plate that will give the extra depth needed for the factory magazine box to work.

Ron,
Would the Wiebe' Mauser follower for the 500 Jeffery work in the M77 standard length action? Might need to be slightly shortened to smoothly work in the magazine box but it definately ought to feed the B&M cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

I have a "Top Secret" project that I have Henry looking at that WILL BLOW all ya'lls mind, if Henry can do it. Sent him details and photos today. This is something Sam Rose come up with, but he and we have not been able to get anyone at all to work on it for over a year. It is something GREAT for Shooters of Big Bore Rifles! BUT I CANNOT TELL YOU ANYTHING ELSE. And I won't, Not until we have it in hand, and it works, and Sam and I can provide them for you. You will just have to wait on this one and wonder!

Michael

This wouldn't happen to be the famous Rose recoil control sling for big bore rifles would it?

We'll just have to wait and see.

Update-

one shot

one big fucking dead Lion--------


non con too tough-acted like solid

more later

quote:

non con too tough-acted like solid

Sean-

Congrats on the Lion.

Very curious about the NonCon performance. Need complete details when you get time, and may I suggest you count all your remaining solids and NonCons to confirm numbers and ensure there was no mix-up?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

non con too tough-acted like solid

I posted this over on the TBP thread – brought it over here as it’s being discussed on both threads…

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
.....
458 non-con acted like solid---no petals, just straight through---
....

I just thought of a 3rd possibility…

I seem to recollect a similar situation that related to the original BBW#13 HP NonCons with their smaller diameter HPs and thicker blades giving inconsistent petal shear. I’m not sure of the caliber, and I’m too lazy today to look back through the thread to identify it, but Michael and Dan resolved the problem – across all BB calibers – by increasing the HP diameter which thinned the blades with the result of very reliable petal shear at much lower impact velocity. All current production Talon Tips are solely cut for the ‘new’ HP diameter.

So…I reckon I need to ask, “SSR are the .458 HP NonCons you're using of the original smaller HP diameter design or of the new larger HP diameter design?”

Edit Added: But perhaps I've already answered the question - page 48 indicates SSR used the 295gr HP NonCon which is listed in the current CEB catalog so obviously it's the new larger diameter HP design with the thinner blades. I'm leaving this post on the thread just in case anyone else might have thought of this as being the issue.